Again, of you make the fighter as an archer, due to his higher number of fears, you can get better tank like feats to help ou with your p close play style. What I think many of us are saying on here is that in the comparisons between fighter and ranger, it might be that the fighter pulls ahead for the tanking qualities your looking for. Rangers can be as good, but the low feat choice limits them in their usage for tanking. Thusly, the fighter is better.
Snap shot, and imp. Snap shot, pin down feat, and point blank master will help you become a more melee range archer. Combat reflexes as well to help you gain more retaliation in your new 15' threatened area. If you want to make your area larger and thus, making you a bigger close rank tank type threat, the combat patrol feat will help with that.
the point I am making is that basically archers are not tanks, be it ranger, fighter or otherwise.
to be honest it may simply be my flavor mentality because pathfinder rules are pretty forgiving for using a bow in essentially melee combat but I still think its a no go.
your going to be provoking all day long vs anything with greater than 5 foot reach, untill you get the feats your not going to be able to stop people from using combat maneuvers on you, until you get the feats your not going to be able to use many combat maneuvers against your enemies.
in fact your going to end up spending a bunch of feats of using your bow as a melee weapon rather than optimizing the effectivness of your weapon for its intended use.
when I first read this I was thinking you could use those special bows that can be used as a staff or transform into a sword for melee combat, making you more of a switch hitter. but if your talking about using a bow AS a bow but just using it in melee combat i would say that the concept leaves much to be desired.
The ranger will most likely stick with archery and rely on his animal companion to be a tank. Will probably have a big cat between levels 7-10, and then some time around there switch to an ankylosaurus for the massive AC upgrade. That dino should be able to tank much better, and will be good with his stun attacks too.
Um, aren't Rangers limited to the animal companions listed in the core rulebook under the Hunter's Bond class ability? That would rule out the ones you mentioned.
I don't see the appeal. Why not just kit yourself out for range, then take point blank mastery for when they're in you're face? Then you're already Legolas. He doesn't just run up and shoot people all the time. It's situational when he's right in their face.
I kind of see this build as kind of like making a build to throw greatswords instead of hitting people with them, except it makes less sense somehow.
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I don't see the appeal. Why not just kit yourself out for range, then take point blank mastery for when they're in you're face? Then you're already Legolas. He doesn't just run up and shoot people all the time. It's situational when he's right in their face.
I kind of see this build as kind of like making a build to throw greatswords instead of hitting people with them, except it makes less sense somehow.
I second this. If you want to be a frontline fighter and have ranged capabilities and play a Ranger you are probably better served to play a "switch-hitter" as described by Treantmonk in his Guide.
You will be much better suited to survive at lower levels if/when you decide to mix it up at the line of scrimmage, and you will still probably be the best Archer in the party (unless your party has a dedicated archer build).
short answer? no.
long answer? archer's aren't really meant to be front-liners (it's why they use bows instead of greatswords)--don't let zen archer monks fool you, they're just freaks of nature. that isn't to say they cant, but it just wont be on-par with people specifically built to be a frontliner.
Great light armor plus high dex can give you a better AC than using full plate so I'm not sure why you would want to go that route anyway?
The best light armor with no max dex bonus to AC only gives a +1 armor bonus to AC, right? So you would need 30 Dex before you have better AC in that than in platemail.
Why are you so keen to have Full Plate?
Can't we by-pass the problems and have Medium Armour and a higher Dex - which is what we want anyway? It's going to make a 2-3 point difference to the end AC.
Having said that I wouldn't allow any bow to shoot at an adjacent foe without provoking, no, no, no.
Having said that I wouldn't allow any bow to shoot at an adjacent foe without provoking, no, no, no.
Would you allow a caster to cast a spell on an adjacent foe without provoking for a trivial concentration check?
And would you tell your players this before they wasted a feat on Point Blank Master?
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A player in my group is 'kinda' making something like this, it's a "legolas" build. She is using Ronin as a mounted archer mostly, and took expertise in katana. Which she is calling TWF with a bow. If she gets in close she can quick draw the katana to do the dirty knife work and then resheath without having to put down her bow.
Quick draw does not allow to sheat a weapon quickly, only to draw it.
The ranger will most likely stick with archery and rely on his animal companion to be a tank. Will probably have a big cat between levels 7-10, and then some time around there switch to an ankylosaurus for the massive AC upgrade. That dino should be able to tank much better, and will be good with his stun attacks too.Um, aren't Rangers limited to the animal companions listed in the core rulebook under the Hunter's Bond class ability? That would rule out the ones you mentioned.
there is a half orc feat called beast rider in URG that allows dinos.
Why are you so keen to have Full Plate?
Can't we by-pass the problems and have Medium Armour and a higher Dex - which is what we want anyway? It's going to make a 2-3 point difference to the end AC.
Having said that I wouldn't allow any bow to shoot at an adjacent foe without provoking, no, no, no.
there are feats for that....
Quick draw does not allow to sheat a weapon quickly, only to draw it.A player in my group is 'kinda' making something like this, it's a "legolas" build. She is using Ronin as a mounted archer mostly, and took expertise in katana. Which she is calling TWF with a bow. If she gets in close she can quick draw the katana to do the dirty knife work and then resheath without having to put down her bow.
the character has never needed to put it away quickly... so it's a non issue.
Quick draw does not allow to sheat a weapon quickly, only to draw it.A player in my group is 'kinda' making something like this, it's a "legolas" build. She is using Ronin as a mounted archer mostly, and took expertise in katana. Which she is calling TWF with a bow. If she gets in close she can quick draw the katana to do the dirty knife work and then resheath without having to put down her bow.
Not in your game =P.
But I know my GM houseruled quick draw to essentially quick hands, so quick drawing quick sheathing and quick drawing potions(although drinking them still costs you an action and provokes).
Made the feat much more desirable.
there is a feat(s) for quick drinking too (although to might need to be a dwarven monk/alchemist to get all the desired affect I cant recall)
there is a feat(s) for quick drinking too (although to might need to be a dwarven monk/alchemist to get all the desired affect I cant recall)
There's a combat trait that lets you drink as a move action and a trickster path ability from the mythic playtest that lets you spend a point of mythic power to drink as a swift action.
I might be thinking of a TPP feat of alchemists.... I have a few alchemist pdfs floating around corrupting my memory
I might be thinking of a TPP feat of alchemists.... I have a few alchemist pdfs floating around corrupting my memory
I think you're thinking of the fast drinker feat, which allows a drunken monk to drink alcohol as a swift action.
there is a half orc feat called beast rider in URG that allows dinos.The ranger will most likely stick with archery and rely on his animal companion to be a tank. Will probably have a big cat between levels 7-10, and then some time around there switch to an ankylosaurus for the massive AC upgrade. That dino should be able to tank much better, and will be good with his stun attacks too.Um, aren't Rangers limited to the animal companions listed in the core rulebook under the Hunter's Bond class ability? That would rule out the ones you mentioned.
Interesting info, thanks. Although it seems that Ender730 was not building with that trait in mind, given that he was thinking about a big cat?
Beastmaster ranger archetype.
Ah, thanks, I missed that.
I might be thinking of a TPP feat of alchemists.... I have a few alchemist pdfs floating around corrupting my memoryI think you're thinking of the fast drinker feat, which allows a drunken monk to drink alcohol as a swift action.
there was something else...i know it involved dwarf monk alchemist.... im sure it involved a TPP tho too.
Having said that I wouldn't allow any bow to shoot at an adjacent foe without provoking, no, no, no.Would you allow a caster to cast a spell on an adjacent foe without provoking for a trivial concentration check?
And would you tell your players this before they wasted a feat on Point Blank Master?
Caster Yes [DC is Monster CMD + 5]
Sure, they know.
Having said that I wouldn't allow any bow to shoot at an adjacent foe without provoking, no, no, no.
Why?
Having said that I wouldn't allow any bow to shoot at an adjacent foe without provoking, no, no, no.Why?
This is a pet hate of mine that came from 3.x where the Order of the Bow Initiate got this ability at 2nd level IIRC.
Anyone in melee is going to have your bow string in pieces before you can knock/pull/aim/fire imo.
Bow users get to kill stuff at huge ranges.
Bow users get to have average AC because the melee guy is keeping the monsters from ripping his face off.
The Bow user now wants to not provoke from being in melee... this ability is for the melee guy only imo. If you want to kill stuff without being in danger I'm fine with that but you're not the melee guy.
I dunno legolas does a lot of this type of stuff in the LoTR movies, and then there is hawkeye more recently, and the TV series the arrow... people see this stuff, then want to do the cool things with their characters... its bound to come up.
This is a pet hate of mine that came from 3.x where the Order of the Bow Initiate got this ability at 2nd level IIRC.Anyone in melee is going to have your bow string in pieces before you can knock/pull/aim/fire imo.
Bow users get to kill stuff at huge ranges.
Bow users get to have average AC because the melee guy is keeping the monsters from ripping his face off.The Bow user now wants to not provoke from being in melee... this ability is for the melee guy only imo. If you want to kill stuff without being in danger I'm fine with that but you're not the melee guy.
But if he's next to someone (Which he IS if he's provoking AoOs) then he IS in danger...
And not just from the AoOs.
Ranged weapons = ranged!
I dunno legolas does a lot of this type of stuff in the LoTR movies, and then there is hawkeye more recently, and the TV series the arrow... people see this stuff, then want to do the cool things with their characters... its bound to come up.
Well, yeah. Unfortunately, most of the time when you want to do something based on a specific character, rules balance makes it so that you have to pick and choose aspects of them that you like. It's something I've run into many times.
For instance, Hawkeye is good with his fists as well as with a bow. But you're not going to be as badass as Hawkeye if something gets in your face and you punch it, after wasting a feat on improved unarmed strike, which means you're not as good with that bow as you could be, and Hawkeye is the best at bows so you already failed your mission.
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For instance, Hawkeye is good with his fists as well as with a bow. But you're not going to be as badass as Hawkeye if something gets in your face and you punch it, after wasting a feat on improved unarmed strike, which means you're not as good with that bow as you could be, and Hawkeye is the best at bows so you already failed your mission.
Hawkeye is a Zen Archer. He can use his fists, but he's at top form with a bow. Plus, his perceptive capabilities clearly indicate a high WIS.
I'm not so sure how "bad" hawkeye is with his fists... It's definitely back up fighting style.
His uniform in the comics is described as chain mail and often drawn that way too. Not sure what to call his uniform in the movie, kevlar? Zen archers dont' wear armor. But it's moot, he could be wearing a cool looking suit. so he could be a zen archer, that might be a way to handle it. But either way, he shoots his bow while threatened, as well as does Legolas.
you lost me.
As long as the archer, regardless in class has point blank master they negate a lot of flack they get for being ranged terrors. Get close to the archer, he's screwed. No longer is that the case. As well as giving them a small threat range, it's wonderful through two other great feats. The zen archer gets there own built in 5' threaten area, which is better than nothing. If they decide to enlarge, for whatever non- advantage purpose, they make that range 10'. Not an advantage considering how many might provoke, which isn't many since zen archers aren't built to be tank types like that.
Regardless, the bow is a weapon at the end of the day, yes it has a string, but it has has it's main body. Any serious combat oriented archer is going to know many times when up close to either switch weapons to their sword, or defend for bait with the bow till such a time they can get distance. The most famous of the fictional is of course mentioned legolas, hawk eye, green arrow all can shoot in melee and defend with their bows. To say that since a ranged weapon is ranged and thusly can't attack at close range, is missing the point that close range is melee attack range, but that doesn't mean a ranged weapon user can't use their weapon in an altered way or even in the same way, but more difficult. Hence the feat(s). Quick example, for guns, if people shoot someone up close even side hip, it's non scoped, or point blank. They don't really have to aim as jus that's it in the basic direction of the enmy for it to be effective. Same thing for archery can apply. When an archer anchors their point, that is, locks into their normal release point on their face, their at full draw. If they were fighting someone in combat up close, that might be inanchored and just quickly snap shot. Plenty of YouTube videos that show this.
Either way, the ranger is a good mini tank at then of the day if built so.