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There are bad things out there, but I do not belive there is something worst than
Voices of the Spheres
At 2nd level, an empyreal knight learns to speak and read Celestial, if she could not already.
This ability replaces divine grace.
Basically in exchange of a powerful defensive ability you gain a point in linguistic.
Archetypes have to be evaluated as the full package. You need celestial later for thst one, they decided that divine grace gotta go, so they assigned this to replace it. They probably could have chosen to assign it differently, but it might have been too late then.
So I disagree :-)
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Divine Grace is one of the absolute best abilities in the game. When I consider paladin archetypes, I lightly skip over any that trade it away. I may read it later just for amusement. What could justify losing that ability? WHAT!!! One language?
I'm honestly curious; have any of you played a paladin with this archetype starting at 1st or 2nd level? If so, why did you think it was worth losing Divine Grace?
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Nicos, that would only help if the creature already spoke celestial. Template doesn't add that ability anymore.
The author talks about it here and how the replacement was added after the original turnover.
Divine Grace is one of the absolute best abilities in the game. When I consider paladin archetypes, I lightly skip over any that trade it away. I may read it later just for amusement. What could justify losing that ability? WHAT!!! One language?
I'm honestly curious; have any of you played a paladin with this archetype starting at 1st or 2nd level? If so, why did you think it was worth losing Divine Grace?
The archetype is actually quite nice. You get a lot of good defensive abilities, and the ability to summon celestials is not to be underrated.
I have actually considered playing a character like that, but my groups usually don't like playing mounted campaigns, so it is less suited... :-/
Again, looking at a single ability in a whole archetype and then at what it replaces is not the right approach IMO.
Nicos, that would only help if the creature already spoke celestial. Template doesn't add that ability anymore.
The author talks about it here and how the replacement was added after the original turnover.
Thanks for the link, Cheapy. Found my own assessment below it :-P
Yea, I found it funny when I saw you comment on it there too :)
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Yea, I found it funny when I saw you comment on it there too :)
Hehe. But you know what's really funny?
I saw the thread title and thought "Is this going to have voice of the spheres in it?" - well :-P
Simple:
Fighter - Two-Weapon Warrior
Doublestrike (Ex): At 9th level, a two-weapon warrior may, as a standard action, make one attack with both his primary and secondary weapons. The penalties for attacking with two weapons apply normally. This ability replaces weapon training 2.
Replace "a two-weapon warrior may, as a standard action, make one attack with both..." by "a two-weapon warrior may, as part of any standard action, make one attack with both..."
Congratulations, you can now make 2 attacks at the end of a charge or while using Vital Strike.
Simple:
Fighter - Two-Weapon Warrior
Doublestrike (Ex): At 9th level, a two-weapon warrior may, as a standard action, make one attack with both his primary and secondary weapons. The penalties for attacking with two weapons apply normally. This ability replaces weapon training 2.Replace "a two-weapon warrior may, as a standard action, make one attack with both..." by "a two-weapon warrior may, as part of any standard action, make one attack with both..."
Congratulations, you can now make 2 attacks at the end of a charge or while using Vital Strike.
Except that your rewording wouldn't work with a charge, since those are full-round actions. We had our fighter in Carrion Crown use this archetype and it was pretty good. He would've gotten more use out of it if we hadn't invested heavily in 'rocket-tag' magic by end game but, oh well, not the archetype's fault.
I do like your idea of Vital Strike getting to use this. If you wanted to use it for both charge and Vital Strike, you could word it like this:
Doublestrike (Ex): At 9th level, a two-weapon warrior may make one attack with both his primary and secondary weapons as part of any standard or full-attack action. The penalties for attacking with two weapons apply normally. This ability replaces weapon training 2.
Oh... whoops :P
Yeah, your version works better ^_^
Empyreal Knight is too back loaded to make up for the loss of Divine Grace at second level and lay on hands.
At 3rd level you get energy resistance 5 to acid, cold and electricity. If it included fire, it would be an A+ ability, but as it is it's a B, because it omits the most common form of damage dealing energy in the game: Fire.
At 6th level you get a +4 save versus poison, which would be unnecessary, if you still had divine grace.
It takes to 9th level to get the energy resistance up to 10, level 12 to get immunity to petrification, level 15 to get true speech and level 18 to very nice protective aura against evil creatures.
At level 5th level you get a bonded mount, which gets the celestial template at level 8 and becomes a Pegasus mount at level 12.
You can summon a celestial ally, at level 4, but the level 4 celestial ally will be from the Summon Monster I list, while a 4th level caster will have access to Summon Monster II, i.e. your celestial ally will always be a step behind what casters can summon, so will probably not be the an awesome combat buddy, but rather something that can do support type work, like an advanced familiar.
Another candidate: spellcasting on the Cloistered Cleric archetype.
RIP Cleric Archetypes
You never stood a chance.
In general archetypes don't give a class feature without taking away other, like the law of equivalent exchange. (I hardly beieve that divine grace is equivalent to a single language though). The lore warden is one of my favorite archetypes, and the favorite when looking only at the fighter. It gives you combat expertise at 2nd level. Without the prerequisite. And it only takes away bravery 1, which means you still get the rest of the bravery ability (however useless it may be). Moreover, I recall some archetypes that gives a free ability without taking away something. Like the fiend flayer (tiefling magus)
Ragechemist's Rage Mutagen deserves a mention. For an extra +2 bonus to strength mutagen you have to make a DC 15 (or 20) will save or take a -2 to your will saves and int score. Important to note that Alchemists have pretty bad will saves to start and the save gets harder and harder to make.
On top of that if your int drops to 0 you're out until an hour after your mutagen wears off. This isn't even counting the fact that the penalties double at level 6.
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While certainly not the worst. The Archeologist Luck ability deserves a mention as well. Take the Bard Inspirre Courage ability and make if a swift action. As a self buff. It sounds good. Except one gets 4 + Cha modifier number of uses. So it's entirely possible that a 15th level Bard will have eight uses of a major ability. At higher levels it's simply going to last through combat. Not to mention a loss of all the other Bardic songs. Last regular bRd on the right hands wreaks more havoc.
I just don't understand the design philosophy for some of the archtypes. Cloistered Cleric like another poster has mentioned is a good example. A loss of a domain for some very low bonus and Scribe Scroll as a feat.
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While certainly not the worst. The Archeologist Luck ability deserves a mention as well. Take the Bard Inspirre Courage ability and make if a swift action. As a self buff. It sounds good. Except one gets 4 + Cha modifier number of uses. So it's entirely possible that a 15th level Bard will have eight uses of a major ability. At higher levels it's simply going to last through combat. Not to mention a loss of all the other Bardic songs. Last regular bRd on the right hands wreaks more havoc.
That seems bad until you realize that extra bardic performance works on that for an extra 6 uses.
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Divine Grace is one of the absolute best abilities in the game. When I consider paladin archetypes, I lightly skip over any that trade it away. I may read it later just for amusement. What could justify losing that ability? WHAT!!! One language?
I'm honestly curious; have any of you played a paladin with this archetype starting at 1st or 2nd level? If so, why did you think it was worth losing Divine Grace?
If the rest of the package is good, whoop-dee-doo... Divine Grace is a feat now... pick it back up at level 7.
There are bad things out there, but I do not belive there is something worst than
Voices of the Spheres
At 2nd level, an empyreal knight learns to speak and read Celestial, if she could not already.
This ability replaces divine grace.
Basically in exchange of a powerful defensive ability you gain a point in linguistic.
Monk of the Healing Hand.
Seriously, you give up tons of offence, for being able to heal far less ably than a paladin with lay on hands, it's so awful it's a joke, and this is on the arguably weakest class in the game - at least the paladin is a strong class that is playable without divine grace!
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That seems bad until you realize that extra bardic performance works on that for an extra 6 uses.
Even with the six extra performances it's stillnit that great imo. A potential twelve to fourteen performances at level 15 is hardly worth the trade. Not to mention if I have to keep taking extra performance more than once. I might as well just take a regular bard. With a level dip in Rogue. The Archtype had a few decent abilities imo. Even then the Rogue talents being what they are as well it's not worth the loss of some bardic abilities.
Even with the six extra performances it's stillnit that great imo. A potential twelve to fourteen performances at level 15 is hardly worth the trade. Not to mention if I have to keep taking extra performance more than once. I might as well just take a regular bard. With a level dip in Rogue. The Archtype had a few decent abilities imo. Even then the Rogue talents being what they are as well it's not worth the loss of some bardic abilities.
That seems bad until you realize that extra bardic performance works on that for an extra 6 uses.
Some races can get you extra uses per day as a favored class bonus. Notable among them half-orc for the potential to add a luck bonus to all saves which works incredibly well with archeologist's luck and the Fate's Favored trait.
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Archeologist luck combined with lingering performance and a race that gets performance rounds per day as a favored class will have plenty or rounds of performance. Add in Fates Favored trait and you have an incredibly strong ability. Luck bonuses are the rarest type in the game so this stacks with practically everything. It increases your chance to hit, damage, saves, and skills, combine this with the spell Heroism for a +4 to just about everything you do for around 30 rounds at 4th level. This is one of the strongest archetypes because of this ability. You also get an additional +2 to disable device, perceptions and all knowledge skills. At this point you are not a bard, but a magical thief who makes a normal rogue look like a commoner.
I have to agree that Voice of the Spheres is the worst trade of any ability. The thing that makes it impossible to beat is you may already have this ability and if so you gain nothing. If I play an aasimar I already get celestial as a language. Since it states you gain this only if you don’t already have it I end up with nothing. Unless another archetype gives some sort of penalty with nothing in return this will always be worse.
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Here the thing. It requires as usual to take feat A. With trait B. Then racial ability C to make it work. Where could take a regular Bard. A level or two dip and Rogue without taking any feats, traits or racial abilites and still be better than the Archeologist imo. Even with the combo that Mysterious Stranger posted above. By the time I get that +4 everyone else has the same bonuses. Even with Fate favored my bonus is only a +2. The Oracle and Cleric are getting better abilites then I am. Again it's not a useless ability. It's a decent one that requires certain elements combined to be great.
As a DM it would make my day ifd a player running a bard took that archtype. A regular bard in the right hands can make a inexperienced DM at the table break into tears. With the right feats, traits and racial abilites it can make running a game really hard. Inspire courage, combined with Haste and Good Hope. Having the various Finale spells in reserve. Oh the Fighter failed his will save make it again. I stopped singing and the spell I'm using allows a extra standard or move action your choice. The Archeologist can do that as well. To a lesser extent. I don't think adding a extra performance per level would have made the luck ability more powerful imo.
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The whole idea behind the archeologist bard is that he a rogue with magic. It does have a feat tax built into it, but so do a lot of classes. Even without playing a race that gets additional rounds of performance per day you can still get around 18 rounds of luck at 1st level. This archetype is about synergy so it does take some system mastery to pull off, but what you end up with is worth it. Dipping for two levels of rogue is not worth it because it delays your spell casting. Also the archeologist gets a flat out bonus to perception not just for traps. At 2nd level he gets the equivalent of 2 rogue talents Fast Pick, and Quick Disable, at 4th level he can pick up trap spotter. Once he gets fast stealth he will have all the rogue talents he needs.
The question is not would you rather have a standard bard or an archeologist bard, but rather would you rather have a rogue, or an archeologist bard. Just look at any of the rouge threads and almost inevitably the archeologist bard is suggested as a better alternative. The archetype also replaces the arcane trickster prestige class.
I would love to see the rounds per luck increased to +1 per level, but even as it stands it is still a very strong ability.
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There are bad things out there, but I do not belive there is something worst than
Voices of the Spheres
At 2nd level, an empyreal knight learns to speak and read Celestial, if she could not already.
This ability replaces divine grace.
Basically in exchange of a powerful defensive ability you gain a point in linguistic.
I was going to suggest this one when I read the thread title.
How about something that actively penalizes you?
Drawbacks
A crossblooded sorcerer has one fewer spell known at each level (including cantrips) than is presented on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known.
Furthermore, the conflicting urges created by the divergent nature of the crossblooded sorcerer’s dual heritage forces her to constantly take some mental effort just to remain focused on her current situation and needs. This leaves her with less mental resolve to deal with external threats. A crossblooded sorcerer always takes a –2 penalty on Will saves.
Whether the whole package is worth it, I don't know, Sorcs aren't really my thing.
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Geisha bards tea ceremony, to get it for 4 of your friends you need to expend 16 turns of bardic song, the cermoney takes 10 mins and the duration is also 10 mins, so by the time you finish half of your party has lost the buffs, by the time you get an encounter the other half may have lost the buff as well.
The archetype is also terrible since it loses armor proficency and the ability to cast in armor for craft scroll, yeah that 4 feats for 1 feat, holy trades batman
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Don't get me wrong Mysterious Stranger. I enjoy the archtype. To me I would rather play it then a standard Rogue. I do agree that the he rounds per luck increased to +1 per level is needed imo.
I agree that it would be nice, but at the same time as long as I can take lingering performance to triple the rounds it is good. I favor the half elf for this archetype just to because I can use ancestral weapon to get proficiency with scimitar. I built a dervish dance archeologist that was more powerful than the rest of the group. Part of that is that I tend to utilize my characters abilities and tactics better than most. With this archetype I have so much to work with that it is not funny. Most people don’t realize how powerful synergy can make your character. The only other class that beats the archeologist for synergy is an inquisitor.
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Simple:
Fighter - Two-Weapon Warrior
Doublestrike (Ex): At 9th level, a two-weapon warrior may, as a standard action, make one attack with both his primary and secondary weapons. The penalties for attacking with two weapons apply normally. This ability replaces weapon training 2.Replace "a two-weapon warrior may, as a standard action, make one attack with both..." by "a two-weapon warrior may, as part of any standard action, make one attack with both..."
Congratulations, you can now make 2 attacks at the end of a charge or while using Vital Strike.
I enjoy playing a fighter but I have always hated the two weapon fighter, especially Valeros. If going the route of wielding two weapons at the same time and being in medium armor at the same time, Rangers are at the top of the chart and fighters at the bottom for melee characters.
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I just don't understand the design philosophy for some of the archtypes. Cloistered Cleric like another poster has mentioned is a good example. A loss of a domain for some very low bonus and Scribe Scroll as a feat.
You're forgetting that they also lose armour, shield, and favoured weapon proficiency & one spell of each level. If you just lost a domain it would actually be a decent archetype (you do also get two skill points and bardic knowledge). I reverted it back a bit to the 3E version for my game - lose diminished spellcasting, but one of your domains must be Knowledge (even if your deity doesn't grant the Knowledge domain) and drop to HD d6 & poor BAB. Makes it a decent caster cleric.
I'd call diminished spellcasting the single worst archetype ability. Some archetypes with diminished spellcasting are overall OK but it's a penalty that's not traded for any specific other benefit and it's a pretty big penalty: lose a spell per day of each level, and for clerics also a domain.
How would a paladin that needs divine grace (for example an empyral knight) pick up divine protection?
The only way i can think of is for the paladin to dip one level to inquisitor/warpriest/cleric/oracle.
How would a paladin that needs divine grace (for example an empyral knight) pick up divine protection?
The only way i can think of is for the paladin to dip one level to inquisitor/warpriest/cleric/oracle.
I think people forget that it requires access to a domain or mystery. They just remember the 2nd lv divine spells part.
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There are bad things out there, but I do not belive there is something worst than
Voices of the Spheres
At 2nd level, an empyreal knight learns to speak and read Celestial, if she could not already.
This ability replaces divine grace.
Basically in exchange of a powerful defensive ability you gain a point in linguistic.
Monk of the Healing Hand.
Seriously, you give up tons of offence, for being able to heal far less ably than a paladin with lay on hands, it's so awful it's a joke, and this is on the arguably weakest class in the game - at least the paladin is a strong class that is playable without divine grace!
Don't forget the capstone. You can completely erase yourself from having ever existed permanently. Yay?
The Human Druid archetype, Feral Child, gives up wild shape for trap sense, a rogue talent, and a slooooowly growing bonus to some combat maneuvers.
Wait, how does being raised by animals even DO that?! Why can't you turn into said animal at least?!
Maybe it's because we never really encountered diseases in our campaign but I can't see when the Hedge Witch's empathic healing would be much use though I do like the concept.
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I had a story idea once for a Samasran who had perfect recall of every one of his previous lives, especially the deaths, and wants nothing more than to break the cycle of reincarnation for good. His plan in the last life was to end the world and that didn't work. This time he is a monk of the healing hand, and trying to become enlightened enough to commit the ultimate suicide that will take him out of existence for good.
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Don't forget the capstone. You can completely erase yourself from having ever existed permanently. Yay?Yeah this is probably the worst ability in existance
My lvl20 Healing Hand Monk is named Asmodeus/Sarenrae/[insert deity of choice here].
