Outsider, lots of abilities, no class levels.
Technically, because Maiar are the Eä version angels, Gandalf would be using divine magic because he's wielding the power of the god that gave it to them (none of this is clear because Tolkien deliberately cut out all references to religion in LotR because he believe it's spiritual nature spoke for itself).
HOWEVEr from a purely gameplay standpoint, Gandalf is more like a magus. His sword capability is only really reflected in paladins and magi (assuming no multiclassing), but of the two only magi have access to spells that cause explosions, not to mention the Craft wondrous Item element of his magic fireworks.
Just for example, show me in LotR where Gandalf was even able to duplicate the vast majority of cantrips or first level spells like create water, levitate, vanish, expeditious retreat, mage armor, shield...Show me in Dragonlance where Raistlin was ever able to duplicate the vast majority of cantrips or first level spells like create water, levitate, vanish, expeditious retreat, mage armor, shield...
And he was definitely a high level D&D wizard by the end. By my understanding he was canonically level 20 at the start of the time travel trilogy.
Actually according to Legends of the Twins he was a CL 28 character after Istar.
I'm just going to have to assume that Gandalf must have been an epic level caster with demigod level cosmic reality altering powers who must have just chosen to stick to third level and lower spells during his entire career on Middle Earth because he preferred to have the entire world torn apart by bloody war, potential genocide, disease, starvation and destruction since he could have ended the whole thing at any time in three rounds with a simple teleport spell to Mt. Doom.
Good guy, that Gandalf.
I would make Gandalf the same way I would run Jarlaxle: Yup, he has some ability/spell/item that does that.
Greetings plot device, you become sullied when I try to label you and only really achieves its full potential when our imaginations are left to fly free.
Gandalf = Deus Ex Machina.
According to Margaret Weis when they were writing the books Raistlin was able to cast whatever spell the author's felt was necessary.
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Gandalf = Deus Ex Machina.
According to Margaret Weis when they were writing the books Raistlin was able to cast whatever spell the author's felt was necessary.
Exactly. And this is why it is an exercise in self-delusion to create a "Pathfinder build" of Gandalf.
Josh Wheedon was asked by a reporter what the top speed of "Serenity" was. His answer "It moves at the speed of plot."
You can't "build" a version of Serenity, because it only existed as a plot device. What it did, how fast it moved, what weapons it had, everything that it could do was defined by what the plot needed.
Exactly as it was with Gandalf.
AD, I do disagree with you a bit.
I think you can create an approximation for fun, and that's all this is for: an approximation for fun.
As for modeling exact 1:1, that's more or less impossible, as you say, but as for getting close... sure, and people have shown a number of ways to do that in this thread.
I think he's a Magaambyan Arcanist
Good Aligned Wizard with some druid spells
However, he's probably a gestalt character, the other half being paladin or something.
As for modeling exact 1:1, that's more or less impossible, as you say, but as for getting close... sure, and people have shown a number of ways to do that in this thread.
Sure, a "number of ways". Ways that range from "level 5 wizard" to "epic level 20 wizard/druid/cavalier/mystic theurge".
When the range is that wide, it's pretty hard to say anyone is credibly "getting close" Tacticslion.
Depends entirely on your interpretation, AD.
In terms of what he was actually truly capable, running numbers (and given the general nature of mostly mundane things, which, in Tolkien's world, many things were "mundane-magic" aka "masterwork" in game terms), he's roughly around eighth level, from what I can tell.
Again, I highly agree that you can't 1:1 him. I also agree that he's probably a celestial of some sort with some magic powers that come with an amount of spellcasting (similar to a nymph or angel) and a specific set of proficiencies. But you've pointed out that his spells are roughly around 3rd level in power. Ergo a close approximation. For fun, no less.
The rather broad swings in his power level are generally the result of their own perceptions of power and what it means. And that's just part of having a large and multifaceted group of people with very different basic presumptions and an interest in the same thing. And that's fine. And that's what this ultimately is.
Otherwise, I agree with you. :)
Magaammbyan Arcanist is actually really brilliant, as far as modeling him goes. Still not 1:1, but really great thematically.
Also, reference Gandalf's skill with a blade: a while back I ran an Eberron module with a straight rogue build with six levels (thus a +4 base attack), a 14 STR, combat expertise, dodge, improved feint, mobility, and spring attack [these are the pre-published stats, and he had a bonus feat due to spoiler reasons]. The rogue was noted as being a 'master swordsman' as a result of this.
Given the assertions of Calibrating Your Expectations on level, it doesn't take much to presume that he was a medium-level character regardless of his base attack bonus.
The main inhibition with modeling Tolkien's people in PF/D&D is the inherent limits of the class system: classes come with a specified pre-bundled set of statistics that get certain things and not others. Due to this, I suggest the use of a special racial hit dice (specifically outsider).
tacticslion, we are probably not far off in our interpretation of the closest approximation of Gandalf using Pathfinder rules. I'd also go with an outsider with hit dice, spell like abilities and a certain number of spells, but in terms of power he'd still end up in the CL 5 to, at most, CL 7 range.
In literature there are very, very few wizards who would top out level 7 or so in PF terms. In any realistic sense of evaluating power a level 7 wizard would probably be able to completely rule this world in a few months. A level 7 wizard would have been worshiped as a god in virtually any human culture up to about two centuries ago. Heck, there's plenty of people alive today that would worship a level 7 wizard as a god.
It's not really a measure of how "weak" Gandalf is, it's more a measure of how insanely powerful magic users are in the game system if you compare them to "reality."
Which, frankly, is one reason I think the game starts to break down after about level 12. The spellcasters pretty much ARE gods for all practical purposes. I've always felt that D&D and PF spellcasting scaled too rapidly and that the game would have been improved had the power curve been less dramatic.
We're pretty much on the same page as each other with Gandalf in terms of closest possible approximation in PF.
And really, you're right about writing compared to PF reality.
But I don't actually have any problem with the high level stuff being exactly what it is (or even epic levels which PF has chosen not to pursue for understandable reasons). More, I think, because it's presumed to be the defacto progression for any hero, it's difficult to get an accurate appreciation for exactly how powerful the things are.
Twentieth level is... amazing.
Warriors can do amazing things, as can casters. I have no problem with that. We're not quite up to anime-height standards, yet, with 20th, but we're approaching them (and are definitively within or above anime standards for many shows).
Just for comparison's sake for what we're really talking about (though I don't think you disagree, here, in scope, just in preference), look really hard at an Red Dragon Wyrm. That's a CR 20.
It's gargantuan. That's within 32 feet to 64 feet long. That's mindblowlingly enormous.
Compare that to the nearly impregnable (at the time) castle wall. Sure, you could get around it... with an army and explosives. According to best guestimation, it's an average of thirty feet tall or so. That's pretty close to three stories tall. An average sized red dragon (it simply gives "gargantuan", it doesn't give actual sizes from what I saw) can easily just slither over the top of the wall and right past all the fortifications without even trying.
That's complete insanity.
And that's the kind of power people are wielding at that level, taking on threats that are (literally) that big.
I have no problem with that.
As Ashiel pointed out, a Solar could, by careful reading of its wish ability and spellcasting (along with following the suggestions of the GMG for handling wish as a spell-like instead of a spell) literally be a creator-god type creature, given enough (relative) time.
That is also okay with me. It's extreme, but perfectly cool with me.
And that's why I don't think Gandalf is validly 20th level, outside of mad multiclassing that doesn't actually do him justice. But some people prefer to look at it that way, so... more power to them, I say.
Isnt Saurman more powerful than Gandalf?
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I prefer to think of Middle Earth as an E6 world and Gandalf is a level 8 or 10 special NPC.
Given the corrupting nature of 'magic' in Tolkein's world, those with the power to wield it did so incredibly carefully and rarely to avoid having it overwhelm them and making them 'other' than what they wanted to be.
Yes I realise that is rediculously vague but it is the only way I can describe it to those who have not read a great deal about Tolkein and his works.
Gandalf, and all the Istari (Saruman the White, Gandalf the Grey, Palmbu the Blue, Radaghast the Brown and the unnamed 5th Blue Wizard) were all Maier (SP?) sent to middle earth by the 'gods' to aid mortals against Sauron. They would not interfere directly any more since the war against Morgoth.
Sauron, as powerful and evil as he was, was only Morgoth's chief lieutenant and IIRC, was a Maier to start with like Gandalf and the other Istari, but he came to Middle Earth in spirit form in the pre first age.
The problem was whem divine spirits were invested into material bodies (like the Istari were) they were then subject to mortal failings and sensations. Hence why over time the other 4 Wizards basically lost their way exept Gandalf. Saruman became obsessed with powernd machinery, Radaghast with the animals and plants of the world (probably one of the inspirations for the orginal Druids in D&D), Palumbo 'went to the east and started his own empir'e and the last unnamed one was never really specified other than he lost his way and ulimately ignored his true purpose in Middle Earth, to give wisdom and aid to the people against Sauron.
Gandlaf was a divine spirit given mortal form for a specific purpose by those above. So frankly he would be ideally made as a new and unique creature, probably an outsider (which would give him the required good saves, BAB and weapon proficiencies) with 'effective' wizards levels and some spell like abilities that allow him to do some out of wizard but still magical things.
Depends on whether we are talking about movie Gandalf (Bard, 7th or 8th level) or book Gandalf where he was an immortal god.
Class levels? Pfft. A slew of outsider racial hit dice, accompanied by a corresponding quantity of supernatural abilities and spell-casting.
At the risk of raising a dead thread, have the finalized Mythic rules and/or changes to SLAs changed anyone's opinion on how to build Gandalf, or his closest approximation?
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level 20 plot device
Late night thought ...
If one was to reproduce Gandalf in Pathfinder, what would your build look like?
Yes, I know that it is a hard because Gandalf did things that no single class really encompasses ... but within the PF rule-set, how would you accomplish a build as close to the core of Gandlaf as you could get?
He looks human, but is much more closer to a aasimar if you delve into the books. He is listed as a "wizard" frequently, but seems to cast spells more like a sorcerer. Then again, that staff looks an awful lot like and arcane bond. And he obviously has a lot on skills in the knowledge areas ...
Specialist Wizard? Sage Sorcerer? Magus? ('cuz of the whole sword thing)
Thoughts?
Gandalf is definitely a native outsider bard.
Gandalf is definitely a native outsider bard.
Gandalf has been stat'd in the M.E.R.P. rules. He's an powerful arcane spell caster, with major artifact lvl equipment.
Raw power-wise, he's one level lower then the balrog (who's "more powerful than a dragon").
Casters in middle earth didn't have prepared-caster mechanics, though he'd have a greater access to different spells then a sorcerer would. The closest you'd get is using 3rd ed. rules with epic feats/salient abilities that allowed him to be a wizard that cast spontaneously.
There's also a lot of assumption in this thread about magic used being confused with magic capability. Gandalf functioned like a lot of celestial beings, preferring to motivate mortals to do the right thing, limiting himself to using no more then was necessary, on the few times he felt he needed to act directly.
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I think the Evangelist cleric archetype could be used to good effect to build an approximation of Gandalf. His job is to inspire humanity, and giving him inspiration-like powers in D&D usually means bard powers, which the Evangelist gets. Give him the Fire domain as his one domain and you've got something that could work reasonably well.
The ancient past of Middle Earth would have been a high-powered fantasy setting like Golarion. By the time of the War of the Ring, it's much closer to something like E6 or E8 in its power level - the magic in the world has literally faded.
If I were recreating Gandalf in pathfinder I wouldn't look at what he did and directly translate it to pathfinder. I would look at his role and recreate it. Gandalf is the 2nd or third most powerful caster in Middle Earth. Pre mythic rules that makes him an 18th or 19th level full caster. Then you just have to pick the type. He casts both arcane and Divine spells, but not too many. He doesn't need a martial class since even a high level wizard with martial weapon proficiency (take the feat) is better than your average Orc. His emphasis on elemental magic and ability with animals says Druid for me.
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At the risk of some thread necro, seeing the Hobbit: Desolation of Smaug got me thinking about this again. It's very late here, so I apologize if what I am proposing ends up being illogical of somehow impossible due to rules I've overlooked.
In looking at ways to approximate what we actually see Gandalf DO, which isn't much casting at all, and beating the Balrog in sword fight, I've come up with:
Samsaran w/Mystic Past Life
Level 20 with 10 mythic tiers: Dual path Archmage and Marshal
Half-Celestial template (if resurrection is self-only) and/or Celestial Blessed (Solar if slaying shot is sword-based rather than ranged).
Eclectic/Esoteric training for +3/+1 Caster Levels.
Build wise either Kensai Magus 20; Or
Paladin Warrior of the Holy Light, Oath against Savagery 20; Or
Kensai Magus 6 / Paladin Warrior of the Holy Light, Oath against Savagery 14 which would get him level 3 Magus spells, a few cherry picked Samsaran spells, and a truck load of SLAs that would approximate all the things we actually see him doing on screen. It would make for an extremely powerful and capable character who doesn't throw fireballs or cast particularly big spells left and right, but who's very presence can still turn the tide of battle.
*Sorry for all the links, but I figured I'd save you some googling.
I'd say he was a Druid that had access to the Fire Domain.
Find the M.E.R.P. book that had the wizards stated out. Will make converting him much easier.
Druid is too much Radagast, imo.
I could look it up this weekend if you are interested.
If I had to guess with Gandalf... I think I'd go Cleric with Marshal tiers. Sun or Fire seem like reasonable choices for his first domain, I think I'd pick Nobility as his second. I also would probably pick human as his race because the even though the Istari were supposed to be akin to angels they became human, if immortal ones, when they came to middle-earth.
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I dont think Tolkien was playing Pathfinder when he made the books.
...Middle Earth is a very, very low magic world when viewed from a Pathfinder perspective. To understand what Gandalf was you have to have some understanding of the theology of middle-earth.
Tolkien's mythos is based on an "all-powerful" one god who created a race of beings to serve him (the Ainur) along with a race of lesser beings (the Maiar) who served the Ainur. Together the Ainur and Maiar are known as the "Valar". To compare to Christian Theology the Ainur would be comparable to the arch-angels (Michael, Lucifer, Gabriel) and the Maiar would be comparable to the highest ranking angels. In essence the Ainur are the actual "gods" of Middle Earth and the Maiar are demigods.
Sauron was one of the first of the Maiar to betray the Valar and join Melkor (renamed Morgoth) who became the first "Enemy" and from whom all evil in middle earth was spawned.
Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast and the other "wizards" were Maiar sent by Manwe and the remaining Ainur to middle earth after the defeat of Morgoth to combat Sauron, who took on the mantle of the "Dark Lord" when Morgoth was captured. So Gandalf is a demigod. His powers are divine powers, not arcane powers. The only way to remotely accurately portray Gandalf in Pathfinder terms is as a divine outsider with spell-like powers and the ability to cast spells. His staff appears to be an artifact, created by the Ainur and a major source of his power. When Gandalf breaks Saruman's staff, Saruman's powers are greatly diminished.
So Gandalf is a demigod with an artifact.
Magic is so subtle and rare in middle earth that you simply can't "create" Gandalf in any class level sense. Outside of the remotely described battle on Weathertop, the most powerful magic Gandalf wields is comparable to a scorching ray spell or possibly a fireball. You could credibly recreate Gandalf's powers with a fifth or maybe seventh level wizard, cleric or druid.
One of the indications of how low magic Middle Earth actually is, is the fact that martial
but he mix up the Ainur and the Valar. The Ainur is all of them, the 15 strongest is the Valar and the rest is maia. Gandalf, Bombadil, the Balrog and Sauron are all Maia.
You also have to remember Gandolf had one of the Elven rings of power. He said to the Balrog "I am a servant of the secret fire, wielder of the flame of Arnor" the secret fire is Narya the Elven ring of fire and the Flame of Arnor is Glambdring his sword.
This interpretation is very questionable at best. Among other things, Gandalf would never refer to himself as a servant of his ring. Furthermore, the power of the Elven rings was to preserve (because this is what their forgers originally desired), not to dominate in battle.
The Secret Fire more likely refers to the fire that Ilúvatar (the creator) used in the creation of Eä (the World). The Balrog is referred to as the flame of Udûn (Sindarin for "Hell"; another name for Utumno, a fortress of Melkor in the First Age). The flame of Anor (not "Arnor") is the fire of the sun.
Gandalf wields the fire of the sun, in the service of Ilúvatar (and the Valar).
Late night thought ...
If one was to reproduce Gandalf in Pathfinder, what would your build look like?
Yes, I know that it is a hard because Gandalf did things that no single class really encompasses ... but within the PF rule-set, how would you accomplish a build as close to the core of Gandlaf as you could get?
He looks human, but is much more closer to a aasimar if you delve into the books. He is listed as a "wizard" frequently, but seems to cast spells more like a sorcerer. Then again, that staff looks an awful lot like and arcane bond. And he obviously has a lot on skills in the knowledge areas ...
Specialist Wizard? Sage Sorcerer? Magus? ('cuz of the whole sword thing)
Thoughts?
The guy has got to be an Aasimar Bard. Think about it - lots of lore knowledge, spends half his time engaging in acts of diplomacy, wields a sword, seems to make everyone else around him tougher, braver or more effective... and remember, this guy isn't slinging lightning bolts or summoning demons - his magic is almost always much subtler and put to clever uses.
Deus ex machina explains Gandalf.
Definitely a GM PC.
And for the record, the ONLY characters in my games that I feel have to abide by the rules of character creation are the PC's. I have no problem giving any NPC or foe any scenario appropriate ability whatsoever...
Gandalf is a Fighter 14/Cleric 6 with the Sun and Fire domains.
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Yeah I tend to agree that Tolkien world is very low magic, level 6-7 for the greatest heroes of this world.
Gandalf magic is closer to being divine magic. Divine magic is not flashy and very subtle compared to arcane. An Aasimar cleric of Sun and Fire would do the trick in my opinion, with favored weapon: Longsword.
To conversions... and my vote is powerful outsider without classes.
ditto