The first one is not possible because the magus is not a spontaneous caster.
Oracle of Battle isnt a Arcane caster, so you couldnt advance in that.
Design Manager
|
The first one is not possible because the magus is not a spontaneous caster.
Oracle of Battle isnt a Arcane caster, so you couldnt advance in that.
I started to say the same thing, and then realized that the pre-req is "Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation". If he has a 1st level arcane SLA, it meets this pre-req.
Although....
You'd probably need to make sure that this build is actually Magus/DD/EK, because if you pick an Aasimar race with a 3rd level SLA like Daylight, you don't actually qualify. It would have to be a 1st level SLA, meaning.... The combo doesn't work. If you qualify for Eldritch Knight by taking a race with a 3rd level SLA, you don't have any 1st level spells that can be cast without preparation, and Dragon Disciple has a skill requisite of 5 ranks, so it can't be taken until 6th level at the earliest. If you had a way to give yourself mutliple SLA's, or picked a class like Sorcerer, you could do it, but there's no legal combo for Magus 1 / DD 9 / EK 10 in any combination.
If he gets Preferred Spell on a first level magus spell, he'll be able to get into DD that way. Then he just needs to have a third level arcane SLA to get into EK at second. Daylight takes care of that.
Now, as to what this character is actually good for, I have no idea. Maxed out Magus caster level without any of the magus abilities seems pretty pointless.
No, the faq reiterates the sorting order for SLAs. Arcane if on wizard, if not divine if on cleric lists, and so on.
|
Design Manager
|
If he gets Preferred Spell on a first level magus spell, he'll be able to get into DD that way. Then he just needs to have a third level arcane SLA to get into EK at second. Daylight takes care of that.
Now, as to what this character is actually good for, I have no idea. Maxed out Magus caster level without any of the magus abilities seems pretty pointless.
Preferred Spell has a pre-req of 5 ranks in Spellcraft, so he'd have to go at least 5 levels of EK first, but yeah, that'd get him into DD.
DD still requires 5 ranks in Knowledge(Arcana) so it' still going to be a while before it can be taken.
4 levels of EK, since he's also got the one level of Magus. He can use his fifth level feat for Preferred Spell and get into DD at level six.
Remember that you're going to have crap saves with this as well since PrC's don't get full save progression.
Also, it's Aasimar.
The Magus/Eldritch Knight/Dragon Disciple build has base saves of 12/6/10, better than any straight class which is 12/6/6.
Pathfinder changed PrC saves to model on leveling up rather than adding an entirely new save progression. In general, the base saves shouldn't fall behind.
|
Design Manager
|
Remember that you're going to have crap saves with this as well since PrC's don't get full save progression.
Also, it's Aasimar.
The Magus/Eldritch Knight/Dragon Disciple build has base saves of 12/6/10, better than any straight class which is 12/6/6.
Pathfinder changed PrC saves to model on leveling up rather than adding an entirely new save progression. In general, the base saves shouldn't fall behind.
Magus is actually 12/6/12, so he's still losing on saves, just not by as much as I initially thought.
You're right, of course. I was thinking one strong save classes, but several have more (Bard, Ranger, Monk).
The main point though is still that PrC's are designed to work like leveling up an existing save rather than adding a new progression so saves shouldn't suffer much.
Once again, at the risk of some thread necro, I wanted to post this here since such excellent points have already been made.
How does Eclectic and Esoteric training from Inner Sea Magic change this build?
Eclectic Training (5 Fame): Guilds often require members to master and train in different subjects. When your Fame score in a guild reaches
5, choose one spellcasting class you have at least 1 level in—you increase
your effective caster level in that class (including the number of spells you know and can cast per day) by +1, to a maximum caster level equal to
your total Hit Dice. Single-classed spellcasters should still pick a class to which this bonus applies, since this bonus is retroactive.
Esoteric Training (35 Fame): The bonus to caster level you gain from Eclectic Training increases to +3 (but is still limited by your total Hit Dice). You may select a second spellcasting class to gain a +1 bonus to effective caster level.
Bare minimum, if you took Esoteric Training and Magical Knack you'd be able to cast level 6 Magus spells as a level 20 caster. At least in pure spell casting power the multi-classing wouldn't cost you anything at all.
Requirements
To qualify to become an eldritch knight, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Weapon Proficiency: Must be proficient with all martial weapons.
Spells: Able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells.
Level one magus can't do that...
A magus is proficient with all simple and martial weapons.
And Assimars have SLAs that count as 3rd level spells.
Wow! Don't know there are some cheat races to bypass Prestige Class' requirement just like that. Lvl 3 spell at level 1. So overpower...
Wow! Don't know there are some cheat races to bypass Prestige Class' requirement just like that. Lvl 3 spell at level 1. So overpower...
Not...really. A straight Magus is outright better than most Eldritch Knight set ups. And the 3rd Level Spell in question, Daylight, is far from the best out there.
Edit: Heck, the most cited early entry class out there (Mystic Theurge) I'd argue has most its benefit in giving you more spells. Which just removes balancing characters by attrition from the GM's options.Pre-Edit:
As to the build given, it's already been mentioned that it's pretty impossible to make it work due to the difficulty of getting 2 levels of Arcane casting, but what about Racial Heritage (Kobold) and Scaled Disciple? I forget the name, but there's a feat that grants an Aasimar a 1st level SLA as well, isn't there?
That all said, 3 feats don't seem worth it for a loss of all that casting to gain 1 extra BAB. EK and DD have nice features but when you don't learn to cast in heavier armour - how much do you really benefit?
Wow! Don't know there are some cheat races to bypass Prestige Class' requirement just like that. Lvl 3 spell at level 1. So overpower...
not really, congratulations on hving a slightly better bab than a cleric in exchange for being 2 levels behind in spellcasting. Also you can't cast most spells in armor without burning up your swift action, as well as 2 feats.
What I meant overpower is the fact such race has the power to bypass a require for prestige class in such early level. Prestige class supposed to mean something special. No like a base class that everyone can just pick up. It takes lots of training and time to find such path. Example, Dragon Disciple should take some time for the character to find his inner dragon and embrace it in order to become a true dragon disciple. Allowing a character take Prestige class takes away that specialness in role-playing.
|
What I meant overpower is the fact such race has the power to bypass a require for prestige class in such early level. Prestige class supposed to mean something special. No like a base class that everyone can just pick up. It takes lots of training and time to find such path. Example, Dragon Disciple should take some time for the character to find his inner dragon and embrace it in order to become a true dragon disciple. Allowing a character take Prestige class takes away that specialness in role-playing.
This is all something that is purely fluff and belongs to the GM. He can easily add such houserules in his home game.
an aasimar magus who takes the heavenly radiance feat at 1st level (or 3rd or 5th, but opted for the level 1 ability) could go magus 1, right into EK, and then pick up DD as early as 6th.
the question from there becomes, should you... maybe someone can find a worthwhile build from there- looking at it casually, the magus gets a diminished spell list and casting progression because of all their class abilities (which you would miss out on), so you'd probably be better off waiting one extra level to take 1 martial level and 1 full-caster level before going EK. even with the extra -1 CL, you're looking at a difference of capping at 6th level spells, vs 8th level spells (if you go EK 10/DD 8); i'm not really familiar with eclectic training and esoteric training, but if they work the way it looks like they do then you could actually get up to 9th level spells if you cast as a wizard instead (though, given the Aasimar racials, you'd probably be better off just going Sorcerer and picking a different level 1 feat).
Agreed, all the change to SLAs/Eclectic/Esoteric Training did is make builds like the Mystic Theurge that used to be impossible into being imminently practical.
I posted in another thread on how to build a Fighter/Mage/Thief that an Aasimar Magus 1 / Rogue 1 /EK 10 / Arcane Trikster 8 or Fighter 1 / Wizard 1 / Rogue 1 / EK 10/ AT 7 would also be possible with a decent BAB.
The Fighter 1 / Wizard 1 / Rogue 1 / EK 10/ AT 7 build would end up with a BAB of +14/+9/+4 which is only one less than a 20th level Rogue.
Heck they'd still be able to cast level 9 spells at 20 even without Esoteric training...and they'd get it at level 17 with it! Nearly as good a Rogue, nearly as good a Wizard, and a passable Fighter. Not bad at all.
If it were a Dragon Disciple instead you could still go Aasimar Fighter 1 / Sorcerer 1 / EK 10 / DD 8 and (with Esoteric Training and Magical Knack) end up with 9th level spells as a 20th level caster and a BAB of +18/+13/+8/+3 not to mention 11 levels of d10 HD and 8 levels of d12.
And that, folks, is pretty dang sexy.
Shouldn't it be BAB +17/+12/+7/+2? Sorcerer 1 lose 1 BAB, DD 8 lose 2 BAB.
Shouldn't it be BAB +17/+12/+7/+2? Sorcerer 1 lose 1 BAB, DD 8 lose 2 BAB.
Yes, you are right; they essentially would fight as a 17th level fighter.
I decided to flesh this out a little bit:
8th level spells as an 18th level caster with Magical Knack, and 9th level spells as a 20th level caster with Esoteric Training for a net power loss of 0.
Bloodline powers of a 9th level Sorcerer plus 3 bloodline feats.
A BAB of +17/+12/+7/+2, equal to a 17th level fighter
11 levels of d10 HD and 8 levels of d12; +4 STR / +2 CON / +2 INT, +3 natural armor, claws, bite, breath weapon and dragon form once a day.
4 Bonus Combat Feats vs a Fighters gajillion (11) and count as an 11th level Fighter and Sorcerer for meeting feat prereqs.
So in essence, this character ends up a 16th level Sorcerer (or 19th with Esoteric Training) and essentially 18th level Fighter. I realize I’m being generous on the Fighter part, but I counted the 7 levels of DD that contribute combat abilities as fighter levels. Once again: Nearly as good as a Sorcerer, and nearly as good as a Fighter; not bad at all.
*Note, you’d need to spend skills/feats to flesh out the concept fully
build would end up with:
A BAB of +14/+9/+4 which is only one less than a 20th level Rogue.
Level 9 spells at 20, equal to a 17th level Wizard. And they’ll get them at 17 with Esoteric Training for a net power loss of 0.
4 Bonus Combat Feats vs a Fighters gajillion (11) and count as an 11th level Fighter and Wizard for meeting feat prereqs.
Spell Critical Special Ability, which none of them have.
Sneak Attack +4d6 equal to a 7th level rogue, but Ranged Legerdemain, Impromptu Sneak Attack, and Tricky Spells (free still/silent spells) which none of them have.
So in essence, this character ends up a 17th level Wizard / 19th level Rogue / 11th level Fighter. Nearly as good a Rogue, nearly as good a Wizard, and a passable Fighter, but you’d need to spend skills/feats to flesh out the build. Not bad at all.
*Note, you’d need to do something to get an extra +1d6 in sneak attack to qualify for Arcane Trickster. Pending what’s allowed at your table, this might derail this build. The simplest solution is to go 1 level of Assassin or Vivisectionist; or go Fighter 1/Wizard 1 / Rogue 3 / AT 10 / EK 5 which would get it done, but play much differently.
Ultimately I don't think either of these builds are world breakers, but they are doable. Not only doable, I think with the proper feat selections, buffs, and play style they could be pretty darn brutal.
And you get around your limitations by remembering your strengths. True Strike, Hypnotize, Color Spray, Magic Missile, Unprepared Combatant, are great and Enlarge Person is super sexy. Drop Blacklight, Grease and/or something terrible on them before you wade in and clean up.
Bulls Strength, Cat's Grace and the backup you summon for yourself all help a lot. DDs should be sure to make friends with the Druid or Ranger to get Strong Jaw cast on you as soon as possible. Not only offset your weaknesses, but take away their strength. If you try to hang with the Barbarian, you can't. If you try to hang with the straight Wiz, you can't. But if you play your cards right, neither of them can hang with *you*. Drop an Ennervation on an unsuspecting friend just to strike a little fear in their hearts from time to time. ;)
Enlarge Person is less sexy for native outsiders, since they cannot benefit from it.
scion of humanity would be a good trait to take for an aasimar who plans on buffing themselves.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
although... if you're taking Scion of Humanity anyways...
or
Trogdar mentioned this in another thread, but I'm reposting here due to relevance:
I'd trade out the level of fighter and one level of DD for paladin levels if your going the sorcerer route.
Upon reflection, I personally don't think the gain of Aura of good, detect evil, smite evil 1/day, Divine grace, and lay on hands is worth the loss of a combat feat, Ability boost (Int +2), bloodline feat and +1 level of spellcasting...but YMMV. It may be a better fit for a campaign you know isn't going to 20 when the early Paladin abilities would be more useful.
And even though this clearly isn't a fully fleshed out build with feats, etc (but feel free to jump in, folks!) but you definitely would need to take Magical Knack and Scion of Humanity for this build to work properly.
although... if you're taking Scion of Humanity anyways...** spoiler omitted **
or** spoiler omitted **
I really like both of these...well played, sir; well played.