Creative Director
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Just wanna point out Pendagast that the AP you are running now (CotCT) is lauded as having the best a d most well developed story arc of all the APs and any AP compared to it directly will seem weak. Jade Regent is really the only other one that comes close for keeping the party as focused and together.
Not sure why Paizo does not do more like that, but I have an inkling WotR will be a strong story-based AP.
Because we produce Adventure Paths for everyone, not just someone. Some folks love the story-heavy campaigns. Some hate them. Some love pirates. Some don't. Some want recurring NPCs. Some hate them. Some people want urban focused games. Others prefer wilderness exploration.
As a result, we vary the types and natures and plots of our Adventure Paths often. And by keeping them to 6 month spans, we've got enough time to give any one AP the attention it needs to serve as a campaign, but don't spend so much time on it that folks who aren't really into the current AP don't have to wait THAT long for a new one to come along.
ahahah! seriously?! a blind oracle with an xbow?! has the rogue tried to lift it off you for safety concerns?
In my Kingmaker game, one of my players is playing a paladin/blind oracle who specializes with the longbow. I laugh at him every time combat starts.
Chances that I'm setting the recovery and reforging of the Sihedron up for something big I've got planned at some point in the distant future are pretty close to 100%. Just so folks know. There's a lot more story to tell in the Runelord/Thassilon/Varisia saga.Now, that's very cool. Still dosen't help to increase PC motivation in the AP unfourtnatley.
However I believe motivation should not be a problem - just make sure to talk ahead with the players and have them create chracters who will care about assembling all the pieces of an ancient artifact, and BAM!
problem solved.Now, player motivation is something else. If the players don't think dungeon crawling for an artifact is fun... plenty of other APs floating around, nearly all of them excelent. No reason to force this one down your party's throat.
Your players should know about the nature of the adventure path before they start.
For Skull & Shackles, for example, that means they should be motivated by a desire to become powerful pirates. If they don't want that, it's gonna be hard to motivate them in that AP.
For Shattered Star, it's back to basics. The PCs should be motivated in large part to go on these adventures simply because they want to go on an adventure. At the very least, they should be so motivated because they're Pathfinders eager to have adventures that they can then some day record and become famous for having gone on.
Shattered Star is in one regard somewhat experimental—it DOESN'T have a "timer" or a big bad end guy or plot that must be defeated by the end. That's something we've pretty much done in every Adventure Path, and there's been some requests by folks to do an AP where that's not the case. Shattered Star is the response.
aha perhaps maybe thats why it seems semi unlinked.
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If you want to give your players some better motivation, maybe you could have them trying to fulfill some ancient prophecy. Or maybe following the advice of a wise old wizard with a white beard.
Okay, sorry. I'll be serious.
Maybe they need to collect the shards in order to destroy them all and prevent something horrible from happening. And if they try to destroy any individual ones the others will regenerate it. So they've got to collect them all first.
Or maybe some subtle but relentless catastrophe is slowly approaching Magnimar, and the Sihedron is the only hope of stopping it. Now you've got a doomsday timer.
Or maybe some cruel villain takes the PCs' loved-ones captive and demands the Sihedron as ransom (okay, that one's a little lame).
Maybe someone claiming to be Karzoug has reemerged at Xin-Shalast and conquered the city (have your players done RotRL yet?). He seems to be preparing for a larger war on Varisia, and there's only one known weapon that can stop him...
nah, we dont need more compelling reason to adventure.
I get it, this AP is literally "adventure for adventure's sake"
I guess I'm curious, why would some shards be relatively 'unprotected' while others will be coveted by super monsters?
I mean if they are all of equal power/ worth, then why defeat a hand full of cr 3 goons for one and in the end have to fight off a cr 18 holy destrukticator for the last one?
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Shattered Star is in one regard somewhat experimental—it DOESN'T have a "timer" or a big bad end guy or plot that must be defeated by the end. That's something we've pretty much done in every Adventure Path, and there's been some requests by folks to do an AP where that's not the case. Shattered Star is the response.That makes sense. I hadn't picked up that it was intentionally experimental in that way.
Actualy it kind of dosen't. When I look back at the APs of previous years I see both Kingmaker and Skull and Shackles, and both of them don't really have anything like a timer. Sure they both end in a climatic epic battle against some BBEG, but in both cases there's near to no foreshadowing of that fight, and the BBEG is not the subject of the campaign. KM is about building a kingdom and Skull and Shackles is about becoming mighty pirates. In both there APs the players (let alone the characters) may not even have an idea there's a big threat they'll have to face up until the last adventure. Shatterd Stat is EXACTLY like them in that regard.
There have been 11 APs and S* is the third AP to have no clock on it as a story. that's ~0.333 of them. So while saying that S* is a little diffrent from most APs by not having a "plot clock", I think calling it experimental is going a bit too far.
Shattered Star is in one regard somewhat experimental—it DOESN'T have a "timer" or a big bad end guy or plot that must be defeated by the end. That's something we've pretty much done in every Adventure Path, and there's been some requests by folks to do an AP where that's not the case. Shattered Star is the response.That makes sense. I hadn't picked up that it was intentionally experimental in that way.
Actualy it kind of dosen't. When I look back at the APs of previous years I see both Kingmaker and Skull and Shackles, and both of them don't really have anything like a timer. Sure they both end in a climatic epic battle against some BBEG, but in both cases there's near to no foreshadowing of that fight, and the BBEG is not the subject of the campaign. KM is about building a kingdom and Skull and Shackles is about becoming mighty pirates. In both there APs the players (let alone the characters) may not even have an idea there's a big threat they'll have to face up until the last adventure. Shatterd Stat is EXACTLY like them in that regard.
There have been 11 APs and S* is the third AP to have no clock on it as a story. that's ~0.333 of them. So while saying that S* is a little diffrent from most APs by not having a "plot clock", I think calling it experimental is going a bit too far.
I agree that Skull and Shackles doesn't have a "clock", but Kingmaker, in several places put the players "on the clock" (at least when I ran it). When their Kingdom comes under attack (several times), they can't just "get to it when they find the time" - they have to deal with the threat now or it will snowball, gain momentum, and crush them.
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nah, we dont need more compelling reason to adventure.
I get it, this AP is literally "adventure for adventure's sake"
I guess I'm curious, why would some shards be relatively 'unprotected' while others will be coveted by super monsters?
I mean if they are all of equal power/ worth, then why defeat a hand full of cr 3 goons for one and in the end have to fight off a cr 18 holy destrukticator for the last one?
On this I will defend the AP. The shards have been lost for ten thousand years. That's the entire span of human civilization in the real world. A long friggin time. They've been lost, found, lost again, refound. This is just the locations they happen to be in during the AP. Conveniently you find them in an order of progressing difficulty, but such is the way of all RPGs.
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On this I will defend the AP. The shards have been lost for ten thousand years. That's the entire span of human civilization in the real world. A long friggin time. They've been lost, found, lost again, refound. This is just the locations they happen to be in during the AP. Conveniently you find them in an order of progressing difficulty, but such is the way of all RPGs.nah, we dont need more compelling reason to adventure.
I get it, this AP is literally "adventure for adventure's sake"
I guess I'm curious, why would some shards be relatively 'unprotected' while others will be coveted by super monsters?
I mean if they are all of equal power/ worth, then why defeat a hand full of cr 3 goons for one and in the end have to fight off a cr 18 holy destrukticator for the last one?
I guess an in-game explenation of this (the fact the PCs go about collecting the shards in the most convinent order) will not be all that far fetched - maybe whenever a shard shows the location of the "next" shard, it shows the one that is the easiest to find - you can handwave it as "anceint Thasslonian magic!". Sounds solid enough for me.
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Creative Director
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nah, we dont need more compelling reason to adventure.
I get it, this AP is literally "adventure for adventure's sake"
I guess I'm curious, why would some shards be relatively 'unprotected' while others will be coveted by super monsters?
I mean if they are all of equal power/ worth, then why defeat a hand full of cr 3 goons for one and in the end have to fight off a cr 18 holy destrukticator for the last one?
Two reasons:
1) Because that's the way the level system works. You start at low level, you end at high level, and due to that, any campaign like this that spreads out a fragmented artifact as a treasure hunt will have a setup like this.
2) Because it's been close to ten thousand years since the shards were lost during Earthfall, an event that was pretty much the end of the world followed by centuries of post-apocalyptic horror. That's a LOT of time for some of the shards to stay hidden, while other shards get discovered and then lost and re-discovered and sold and lost and re-discovered and finally end up, in some cases, in unlikely places. Or alternatively, that's a lot of time for a shard that, even though it stays in the same place, everything around it changes so that in some cases, the once potent guardians and wards have left or faded.
The fact that the shards are found in ascending order of difficulty is a necessary construct of the way the game is built.
It seems to me ...from what I'm reading, that the simpilest solution is to make sure the players are playing characters that are actually "dedicated" pathfinders.
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I'm not feeling the use of the Pathfinder Society as the main motivator for an AP. The dungeons and encounters look solid, but "you're Pathfinders" being the driving force behind the AP is going to give it a hollow feel. When/if my group does Shattered Star that's one aspect I think will have to be changed.
I don't have a problem with the Pathfinders as a concept for some adventures. It's a great setup for organized play where you're going to have a lot of character rotation and people floating in and out, but it doesn't seem to work that well in an Adventure Path. When you have a dedicated group of the same players committing to a several months long campaign the initial hook needs to be stronger than the Pathfinder Society.
Finding something to stave off the return of the Runelords and protect all of Varisia seems pretty heroic. Isn't that Sheila Heimdarch's motivation right out of the box?
Thats how I read it too.
Another minor complaint is that, but for the shards and the backdrop of Varisia, the individual adventures seem disconnected. This feels less like a fully integrated AP and more like 6 Pathfinder Modules that just happen to run sequentially.
This
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This
Another minor complaint is that, but for the shards and the backdrop of Varisia, the individual adventures seem disconnected. This feels less like a fully integrated AP and more like 6 Pathfinder Modules that just happen to run sequentially.
I don't get why they should be more connected. You are searching for lost artifacts that where scattered in ancient times and that's that. Not all has to be conspirations to comit genocide or ancient evils returning.
It's my opinion, you don't need to get it. Also this AP is actually all about "ancient evils returning" - that's one of its primary themes.
I don't get why they should be more connected. You are searching for lost artifacts that where scattered in ancient times and that's that. Not all has to be conspirations to comit genocide or ancient evils returning.
So you are complaining for the sake of complaining? I thought if you posted something in a public messageboard was because you wanted to convey your opinion to the other users.
And as I understand this AP, it's not so much "ancient evils returning" as it is "if someday this few evil wizards come back we should be prepared".
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I don't like this AP, but not because I'm bored per se. Individually I've actually really enjoyed most of the volumes - particularly The Asylum Stone and Beyond the Doomsday Door. I have two main complaints though. First and foremost, I don't like the dungeon-centric nature of SS. I prefer one or two main dungeons per AP with the others being smaller and more interspersed with roleplaying elements, travel, etc. Up until now every AP has followed this pattern, so I understand that SS is an effort to mix things up and throw a bone to the mega dungeon crowd. It just so happens I'm not in that crowd.
And that's really exactly what it is, and is why I'm enjoying it so much. As James has stated, APs offer a variety of styles of play to satisfy different players. Our group wasn't interested in Pirates or Far East, so although I kept up my sub, we sat the adventures themselves out. This is a hark back, not only to Paizo's early years, but also to the 'traditional' dungeon crawl. That's never going to be to everyone's taste, but for those for whom it's an ideal mix of 'dungeons and diplomacy', I think we shouldn't begrudge either the idea or the execution of the AP. People who 'don't like the dungeon-centric nature of SS' should sit this one out, in the same way folks who don't like horror, or urban, or pirates have sat out others. That way, really, the AP line retains something for everyone.
Like others here, I'm not sold on the Pathfinders though. In my campaign I have a powerful and longstanding NPC family who have been targeted over the last few years by a powerful and unknown enemy. So, the matriarch of the family has hired the party to take up Sheila Heidmarch's quest, but covertly do so for her with every intention of siezing the Sihedron when it's complete. We'll see how that plays out, but really, the point is that a creative GM doesn't need to foreground the Pathfinders or require undying loyalty towards them from the team.
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I like the dungeons and each individual module a lot. It plays a lot like most of Shackled City (minus parts like Foundation of Flame), I just think lack of a cohesive story the PCs can really involve themselves in hurts APs. RotR, LoF, S'S, KM, CC and S* suffer from this quite a bit. Opposed to CotCT, SD and JR which had strong story connecting the APs (although SD suffered a bit in player motivation/personal stake).
James, you said above that this was "trying something different" by not having a strong story arc, but those APs are imho already the minority.
well agreed, I'm not saying "this AP sucks" , Im just bored by the story line. Of course I haven't gotten all of them yet.
I do like them as individual modules, not saying the dungeon crawls arent cool.
I still think I'd like to see an AP all written by the same guy, choppiness and lack of continuity are commonly caused by this tag team author thing going on.
I like the dungeons and each individual module a lot. It plays a lot like most of Shackled City (minus parts like Foundation of Flame), I just think lack of a cohesive story the PCs can really involve themselves in hurts APs.
Might I recommend this?
Might I recommend this?well agreed, I'm not saying "this AP sucks" , Im just bored by the story line. Of course I haven't gotten all of them yet.
I do like them as individual modules, not saying the dungeon crawls arent cool.
I still think I'd like to see an AP all written by the same guy, choppiness and lack of continuity are commonly caused by this tag team author thing going on.
That item is probably going to tempt me into subscribing to the Modules line, so yeah, maybe.
Just want to point out that I agree and said as much in my post. In case I wasn't clear, I'm glad Paizo is keeping things fresh and don't expect everything to always work for me. Given the nature of this thread however, I thought I would also mention what I found lacking in SS.People who 'don't like the dungeon-centric nature of SS' should sit this one out, in the same way folks who don't like horror, or urban, or pirates have sat out others. That way, really, the AP line retains something for everyone.
You totally did, and I apologise if any part of my post came across as a criticism of your opinion. Really, I commend you for your evenhandedness, I just wanted to express a heartfelt 'noooooooo!' to folks expressing a dislike for the whole concept of the AP. For aspects of how it's been executed, sure, I don't have any problem with that, I just don't want Paizo to take away an overall feeling of negativity from the posts because an extended dungeon crawl is what some of us here have been crying out for (and with regard to Mike Shel's post - I've noted the change to the modules with glee and am definitely going to subscribe to the line now).
Much as I like diplomacy and urban exploration, a couple of my players are just not up to it, and they're really only happy when they've got a corridor, a secret room, and a monster to hit. Takes all sorts, and other elements of roleplaying I'll be weaving in and out of the AP for the benefit of my other players. That's where my job comes in.
I love me some adventure paths, but the sad truth is that I will never have the time to run them all (Shackled City, Rise of the Runelords, and played through part of Kingmaker and Skull & Shackles). This means that the majority of content that I am paying for is for the sole purpose of my reading enjoyment.
Don't get me wrong, that is not a bad thing. I LOVED reading Dungeon Magazine and it was reading it that kept me into gaming through a dry spell of opportunities to play. Similarly I love reading through adventures.
Bringing this back to Shattered Star though, it has helped illustrate to me just how comparatively boring it is to read through a heavy dungeon adventure to one that is chocked full of political intrigue and interesting encounters.
It very well could be that this AP plays beautifully, but it isn't much of a read. For the first time, all the episodes of an AP are really good at putting me to sleep at night. I just opened the fourth installment I got in the mail today and realized I hadn't finished the second.
So far... it just hasn't been much fun to read.
Sean
Contributor
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Im really enjoying this AP from a GMing standpoint. Its pace offers plenty of time for a GM to toss in plenty of side quests - taken from PFS scenarios - as gap fillers and RP quests. My players seem pleased with it as well so no complaints here.
This.
It's nice that the current season's PFS modules can mostly all be fitted into the AP at some point.
The Lissala modules will form the spine of a sideplot for my players that I may weave into a greater metaplot involving the Sihedron. I'm just waiting on the article from Into The Nightmare Rift before I decide. CAN'T WAIT FOR NEXT TWO AP INSTALLMENTS.
hmmm thats true, this seems to be the first completely PFS compatible AP
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Creative Director
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hmmm thats true, this seems to be the first completely PFS compatible AP
Apart from the fact that a third of the Adventure Path is above the Pathfinder Society's level limit...
...and if you remove that point or don't include it, I'd say that ALL of our adventure paths are PFS compatible. They are, after all, all set in the same world.
I dont do PFS stuff, I dont like pathfinders. But it seemed to be aimed at this goal specifically.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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Im really enjoying this AP from a GMing standpoint. Its pace offers plenty of time for a GM to toss in plenty of side quests - taken from PFS scenarios - as gap fillers and RP quests. My players seem pleased with it as well so no complaints here.
Make sure to check out my blog on Monday. I think you will be pleased.
I love me some adventure paths, but the sad truth is that I will never have the time to run them all (Shackled City, Rise of the Runelords, and played through part of Kingmaker and Skull & Shackles). This means that the majority of content that I am paying for is for the sole purpose of my reading enjoyment.
Don't get me wrong, that is not a bad thing. I LOVED reading Dungeon Magazine and it was reading it that kept me into gaming through a dry spell of opportunities to play. Similarly I love reading through adventures.
Bringing this back to Shattered Star though, it has helped illustrate to me just how comparatively boring it is to read through a heavy dungeon adventure to one that is chocked full of political intrigue and interesting encounters.
It very well could be that this AP plays beautifully, but it isn't much of a read. For the first time, all the episodes of an AP are really good at putting me to sleep at night. I just opened the fourth installment I got in the mail today and realized I hadn't finished the second.
So far... it just hasn't been much fun to read.
Sean
Meanwhile, this is probably the most fun I've had reading an AP other than Jade Regent.
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Its interesting to see the different opinions of dungeon crawl. Some folks like them and some don't. I personally really like the dungeons, and am a big fan of the dungeon crawl. I think the key to a good dungeon crawl is the GM keep the action going and not let it just become an on going series of mindless encounters. In my own group I have one guy who is not a big fan of dungoen crawls, and prefers more of an urban campaign.
One of the things I like about what James & team are doing is that they are willing to mix up their AP's so that they are all a bit different. I definitely do not want to get AP's that all look the same but with different NPC names.
IMHO, this is one of the top 5 AP's that Paizo has produced, but I do recognize that if you don't like dungeon crawls, this is probably at the bottom of your list.
It's not the dungeon crawl that makes it boring....
It's kinda weird, Cool bad guys (More Maidens, and evil clerics are always good) but all in all Im just not diggin the story line.
Maybe it's due to my utter apathy for RotRL and this is too much of s sequel?
I'm just not feeling the compelling adventure, I also despise the pathfinder society concept which could be ruining it for me too?
I started my AP subscription with this AP and I'm using it as a mash up and ignoring the shards plot. Specifically I'm mashing it with Kingmaker because I have too many PCs to run KM straight. AS an AP I'd agree with you that this is lacking something, as a bunch of transplantable dungeons I feel I'm getting my money's worth
I couldn't disagree with the OP more. I've been GMing this AP and I just love it. So do my players.
We just finished Legacy of Fire, wherein the PC's felt constantly under a time pressure. Rest for too long and the BBEG is going to destroy their home town. They really enjoyed LoF, but were looking for something different, with a different pace. Shattered Star gave it to them. I've inserted several side quests and adventures related to the PC's. I've taken the time to flesh out the city of Magnimar.
There's nothing boring about Shattered Star at all. Personally, I had little interest in any of the last three AP's, but I enjoyed reading them all. But when the first issue of Shattered Star came out, I immediately wanted to GM it.
I find the dungeons to be fun, the setting to be flavorful and the NPCs to be varied and interesting (long live King Zuuga!). I particularly LOVE how many, even most of the encounters have the potential to be resolved in nonviolent ways.
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While I greatly enjoy each of the adventures (it is not common that the first adventure in a path is the least intresting but this is the case here), I think the true test of this AP is the fact that even the best crawls can get tiresome.
So far reading this AP is a blast and I rate it 3rd best from Paizo yet (right after Crimson Throne and Carrion Crown), but I am starting to fear that, come high levels (say after adventure 4) the players will get REALLY tired of dungeons... I mean I'm reading through part five, and it's AWESOME.... but all I can think is, "jee, nother dungeon crawl".
That makes me doubt the concept of a dungeon AP a bit.
Heh. I'm thinking, "Gee, another dungeon crawl!"
I for one am looking forward to running this AP precisely because of the dungeon crawls. With the revisiting of several 3.5 APs in the mix and a deliciously malevolent chapter by Richard Pett the "body bag" factor is pretty high. Two sharpened knives up!