I would like to know which classes/builds excel at tanking? Fast heal, heal, damage reduction, AC, CMD, constitution, saves, or some other unique way to tank or at least fill the position. specifics are great but if you fell like calling out something like: Paladin, Armored hulk, or treant-druid... that is fine as well.
Paladin is the first thing that comes to mind for me. Cha to saves, Self heal as free action and heavy armor. That and a handful of buffs.
At least for me that's the go to for when I think of tanking.
i was gonna say (anti)paladin, but the tank barbarian is a neat one too. monks when built well can be pretty amazing defensively, at the cost of some offense.
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The thing about Tank characters is that they need to do a lot of damage and cover a large area. A reach weapon is a huge boon and AoE attacks of some sort of a huge boon. Having a ridiculously high AC is nice, but remember that a DM with usually switch targets when someone is too hard to hit. If anything, DR is king here.
Stonelord Paladin with a reach weapon, good dex, and combat reflexes. You get a great AC and DR equal to half your level. You get something akin to rage which gives you Defensive Powers, of which Halting Blow and Unexpected Strike synergize well with combat reflexes and lets you cover a huge area. He can ignore criticals and use a ton of Lay on Hands.
The Sacred Shield Paladin gives a large AC bonus to his allies and thus negates the "switch to another target" problem.
An Invunerable Rager Barbarian for much the same reason as the Stonelord, just with more powers and no LoH
Samurais of all types because of resolve.
Crane Style Monks
A Aldori Swordlord figher/Aldori Swordlord PrC with Crane Style and a very high dex. Through in 2 levels of Monk(Master of Many Styles to get Archon style) for Wis to armor, then a few levels in Duelist to get Parry, Riposte, and Int to AC.
A Gulch Gunner Gunslinger with a great dex and acrobatics skill.
@urist's tank requisite comments: yeah, my favorite 'tank' so far that i've built is an antipaladin 17 / fighter 3. all the defensiveness of a sword-and-board, as well as reach and standard antipalading goodies. still can 2hand the polearm when you want at no penalty, and still have a free hand for healing yourself.
can be quite easily applied as a regular paladin as well.
In narrow conga line combats of dungeons and really any narrow battlefield, Tower Shield Specialist Fighter. It's slow going early on but man you are a one man auto wall, and with some feats can wall up your nearby squishe friends too. Tanks need to hit hard, and hold a set point on the battlefield, also tanks are generally slow moving, so prepare for 20-15 feet a round movements.
Just make the Polearm a Dorn-Dergar and get the Dorn-Dergar Master feat.
Just make the Polearm a Dorn-Dergar and get the Dorn-Dergar Master feat.
went with fauchard for the critfarming myself. works well with the whole 'terrifying your enemies with being FABULOUS (combat performance)' aspect.
^link or details plz this one sounds different
^link or details plz this one sounds different
its not all that different at its core--youre still using a "reach" weapon (in the sense that you're threatening everything in a large area because snap shot and combat patrol), have great saves (a perk of being a monk), good touch AC and CMD, and very likely a serviceable AC (not too low to be hit by everything, but not too high to be ignored in lieu of other targets).
Cool cool
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also, totally assembling an elf fighter/monk/swordlord/duelist now. thanks for the idea, urist.
edit: seriously, that is the dueling-est duelist type character i have ever heard of.
double-edit: currently totaling those levels as fighter 3-4 / monk 2 / sword lord 9-10 / duelist 5
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If you want WIDE area control, good damage output and just being great at placing allies between your party and the enemy, aka tanking... go Master Summoner! You can call up lots of monsters to "tank" for you once you hit lv 3+.
Just the basic Master Summoner archetype is great, take the Superior Summoning feat at level 3 for even more summons.
Archer with the Snap shot + Improve snap shot and Combat reflexes is also pretty neat if you are going for a more solo character tanker. The Archer archetype for fighters also allows you to perform a limited number of combat maneuvers at range.
If what you want is the int to AC then you could take the kensai magus instead of duelist.
But if you want to go that route I'd start with a level of kensai for the free exotic wp, weapon focus and all the other goodies like arcane pool, spell casting etc.
also, totally assembling an elf fighter/monk/swordlord/duelist now. thanks for the idea, urist.
edit: seriously, that is the dueling-est duelist type character i have ever heard of.
double-edit: currently totaling those levels as fighter 4 / monk 2 / sword lord 9 / duelist 5
current setup:
elf fighter/monk/aldori swordlord/duelist 20archetypes:
Aldori Swordlord (fighter) and (Master of Many Styles) monk.
stats:
str 7 (-3 points)
dex 28 (10 points, 4 level, 2 racial, 6 belt)
con 12 (3 points, 1 level)*
int 22 (5 points, 2 racial, 6 headband)
wis 20 (5 points, 6 headband)
cha 10
* could get a dex/con belt to bump hp up as well.
traits:
threatening defender
reactionary (maybe)
feats:
fighter 1 exotic weapon prof. (aldori dueling sword)
fighter 1* weapon finesse
fighter 2* weapon focus (aldori dueling sword)
fighter 3 dazzling display
fighter 4* combat reflexes
monk 5 combat expertise
monk 5** archon style
monk 6** archon diversion
SwdLord 7 crane style
SwdLord 7*** aldori dueling mastery
SwdLord 9 crane wing
SwdLord 11 crane riposte (maybe)
SwdLord 13 dodge (prereq for duelist)
SwdLord 15 mobility (prereq for duelist)
duelist 17 ???
duelist 19 ???
* fighter bonus feat
** monk bonus feat
*** aldori swordlord bonus feat
dodge/mobility could be taken in place of combat reflexes and -expertise to stagger in some duelist levels in between aldori sword lord levels.
as noted above by umbranus, kensai magus could be an alternative to duelist if you JUST want int to AC, and with a ring of wizardry for the appropriate spell slot and robe of runes you can do quite a bit with your rather small selection of magus spells.
Prepare to have your mind blown. The best tank in the game is (drum roll) a Summoner with a 20 CHA. Gnomes work the best as they increase your CHA and your CON AND they let you talk to animals once a day. (more with a feat) A master summoner is even better if they are allowed in your game as they can summon even more a day plus they get Augmented Summoning for free at 2nd level.
You're likely asking yourself "But why a Summoner?" I'm going to tell you.
At level 3 you'll be able to summon 1d4 (+1 with a feat) Eagles per turn, 8 times a day. On average, you'll only need one set of this per combat and 2 sets during a BBEG fight. There's normally about 3-4 fights per mod thereby leaving you with summons to spare. Now, an Eagle isn't much of a thing, (outside of his 3 attacks doing 1d4 each) but his true glory is that he will never need to be healed. Let the enemy kill/injure you summons, they'll be gone soon anyway, and every attack on them is an attack that effectively "missed" your party.
The GM will often want to attack them too, as they only have have 14 AC and a small amount of health. That and after you get augmented summoning, and have about 3 of them attacking one enemy at once that can potentially lead up to 9d4+18 a round. More if the enemy is evil as then you can get your Eagles to do their form of smite evil. (+1 damage per attack or +9 added to my above total)
You might be asking what you should do with your Eidolon at this point, since he won't be your main for of damage. Give him skill-based evolutions. Never have a rogue in your party? Get your Eidolon to look for those traps and to disable them too.
remember that doing this will have your DM breathing down your neck forever after, due to taking up so many turns and all that paperwork, as well as potentially trivializing other members of the party.
It can be done quickly though, just roll all of the attack dice at the same time. 85% of the time your Eagles won't be moving until the guy they are attacking dies, and the rest of the party can focus on the other baddies.
Also, keeping a copy of your summons's character sheets will speed the process along. It also helps to bring a note pad, and keep track of all of your guys hp and so on from there. Use numbered/lettered/colored markers to help keep track with your notepad.
As for potentially trivializing other members of the party, try to only focus your summons for the good of tanking and you should be fine. There will still be damage dealers (which most people prefer to do anyway) and there will be healers. You'll just be a different kind of tank. :)
just curious: do eagles have hover? if not then you'll have to roll oodles of fly checks or be moving all of them, every round.
if they do then disregard this.
Remember that Dodge is a pre-req for Crane Style, so you'll need that before yout take those feats.
And yeah I would figure a summoner would be the best tank...if only because they're summoners.
The thing about Tank characters is that they need to do a lot of damage and cover a large area. A reach weapon is a huge boon and AoE attacks of some sort of a huge boon. Having a ridiculously high AC is nice, but remember that a DM with usually switch targets when someone is too hard to hit. If anything, DR is king here.
Stonelord Paladin with a reach weapon, good dex, and combat reflexes. You get a great AC and DR equal to half your level. You get something akin to rage which gives you Defensive Powers, of which Halting Blow and Unexpected Strike synergize well with combat reflexes and lets you cover a huge area. He can ignore criticals and use a ton of Lay on Hands.
The Sacred Shield Paladin gives a large AC bonus to his allies and thus negates the "switch to another target" problem.
An Invunerable Rager Barbarian for much the same reason as the Stonelord, just with more powers and no LoH
Samurais of all types because of resolve.
Crane Style Monks
A Aldori Swordlord figher/Aldori Swordlord PrC with Crane Style and a very high dex. Through in 2 levels of Monk(Master of Many Styles to get Archon style) for Wis to armor, then a few levels in Duelist to get Parry, Riposte, and Int to AC.
A Gulch Gunner Gunslinger with a great dex and acrobatics skill.
I think that most GMs will help out a player who wants to play a "tanky" character so long as they roleplay it well. i.e. Tossing insults and demoralizing foes with Intimidate. As far as I'm considered, the Pathfinder tank is a primarily Charisma-based character, which is another reason paladins excel at it.
If you have a GM who isn't being nice to your desires or your players are constantly pushing the limits how often the GM can justify ignoring them for you, then Antagonize from Ultimate Magic is a beautiful feat.
Off the top of my head:
*Paladins (given)
*Barbarians (also a given)
*any D10 class has the potential to become a tank with a good build
*Human with Racial Heritage/Orc Scarred Witch Doctor... ESPECIALLY at 20th with average PC wealth (1/2bab casters are often known to put their casting stat above others, so putting CON at 18/20 is a no brainer.) No seriously, I got her to have a RIDICULOUS amount of HP for a full caster, pretty good AC as well.
I'm serious about that last part.
I find it really weird how a Human with that racial heritage feat qualifies for Witch Doctor but a Half Orc doesn't =P. Well, that's PFS for you.
But yeah, as weird as it is, a Witch Doctor is a great tank and you get to be a huge badass while you do it.
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Summoner can.
Because they're summoners.
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-Race / Class-
Half - Elf / Summoner (Synthesist), Paladin 2, Monk 1
-Stats with out Eidolon (25 point buy)-
STR 07 (+6 item)(-6 age) = 07
DEX 07 (+6 item)(-6 age) = 07
CON 10 (-6 age) = 04
INT 13 (+3 age) = 16
WIS 17 (+6 item)(+3 age) = 26
CHA 18 (+2 racial)(+3 age)(+5 leveling)(+6 item) = 34
-Saves with out Eidolon-
Fort = 28
Reflex = 25
Will = 40
AC = 36
Touch = 23
Flat - Foot = 28
-Stats with Eidolon-
STR 29
DEX 28
CON 13
INT 16
WIS 26
CHA 34
-Saves with Eidolon-
Fort = 32
Reflex = 37
Will = 44
AC = 72 (76 with combat expertise)
Touch = 31
Flat - Foot = 58
-Eidolon Abilities-
Base - Darkvision, Evasion, Improved Evasion, Devotion, Multiattack
Form - Biped - claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs)
Claws (x2)
limbs (arms) (x2)
Immunity (acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic)
Spell Resistance (28)
Flight Su (30ft)
Improved Natural Armor (8)
Improved Damage (claws)
-Class / Feat Progression-
M 01 Dodge, Skill Focus Perception, Toughness
P O2
P 03 Combat Expertise
S 04
S 05 Extra Evolution
S 06
S 07 Combat Reflexes
S 08
S 09 Extra Evolution
S 10
S 11 Vigilant Eidolon
S 12
S 13 Extra Evolution
S 14
S 15 (insert feat here)
S 16
S 17 (insert feat here)
S 18
S 19 Extra Evolution
S 20
-Gear-
Bracers of Armor
Ring of Protection
Ring of Forcefangs
Cloak of Resistance
Amulet of Natural Armor
Headband of Mental Prowess (wis and cha)
Belt of Physical Might (str and dex)
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Race-
Human
-Classes-
Fighter (Lore Warden) 14/ Monk (Monk of the Four Winds / Monk of the Sacred Mountain) 4/ Shadow Dancer (Prestige Class) 2
-Stats (25 point buy)-
STR 14 (+6 magic item) = 20
DEX 16 (+4 leveling)(+6 magic item) = 26
CON 15 (+2 racial)(+1 leveling) = 18
INT 14
WIS 10
CHA 08
-Saves-
fort 22
ref 22
will 13
ac 47 (+5 combat expertise)(+3 fighting defensively) = 55
touch 24 (+5 combat expertise)(+3 fighting defensively) = 32
flat-footed 29
to hit with unarmed attacks with weapon finesse 26 (-4 combat expertise)(-1 fighting defensively) = 21
-Traits-
Threatening Defender
-Feat / Level Progression-
F01) Shield Focus, Combat Reflexes, Stand Still
F02) Combat Expertise, Weapon Finesse
M03) Elemental Fist, Dodge, Crane Style
M04) Toughness, Deflect Arrows
F05) Missile Shield
F06) Crane Wing
F07) Saving Shield
F08) Bodyguard
F09) Crane Riposte
F10) Greater Shield Focus
F11) Disruptive
F12) Spellbreaker
F13) Pin Down
F14) Ray Shield
F15) Draconic Defender
F16) Mobility
M17) Monastic Legacy
S18) NONE
S19) Deepsight
M20) NONE
-Magic Gear-
Bracers of Armor(+8)
Heavy Mythril Shield (+5 Arrow Catching, Arrow Deflection)
Ring of Protection (+5)
Ring of Regeneration
Amulet of Natural Armor(+5)
Belt of Physical Might (+6 str / +6 dex)
Cloak of Resistance (+5)
-Tanking Method-
Fight with ur other character standing behind u since any thing that enters ur threaten area will not be able to exit ur threaten area via Stand Still and Pin Down as well all incoming missile attacks would veer towards u via Arrow Catching. When making an attack action fight defensively and use combat expertise to up personal ac and grant 1 adjacent party member a natural armor bonus equal to the dodge bonus from combat expertise and fighting defensively via Draconic Defender. Use AoO to grant aid another ac to an adjacent party member via Bodyguard and an immediate action grant shield bonus via Saving Shield. Negate 1 melee attack, 1 ranged spell attack, and 3 ranged missile attacks a round via Crane Wing, Ray Shield, Deflect Arrows, Missile Shield, and Arrow Deflection.
If your a summoner, why not just summon a tank?
I also had this ridiculous idea of doing what they did in Avatar the last Airbender with tanks, put a wizard in it, and have him shoot spells out of it. Think Cardboard box car?
Summoners are not tanks. Summoners SUMMON tanks. There's a difference.
As a druid, I can have an army at my command as well. Wildshape with Natural Spell, Animal Companion, Summon Nature's Ally until the monsters are dead.
I do like the idea of a Human Scarred Witch Doctor though. I may have to make one of those.
Psion Psycho, you don't get Monk bonuses to AC while using a Shield. Were you adding them in?
==Aelryinth
A synthesis summoner can be a tank.
Yes, but every post was "hey because you can summon <X> numbers of creatures to tank FOR you." Not a setup of how the summoner themselves can be set up as a tank.
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@Aelryinth
Synthesist ability Greater Shielded Meld adds +4 shield bonus to his Armor Class and a +4 circumstance bonus on his saving throws.
@Barry Armstrong
The OP asked for builds that make great tanks and the Synthesist Summoner fuses with its pet gaining all of its physical stats and abilities while keeping ur mental scores. The build posted above from me make ur ac and saves far higher than any monster can posibly hit and unlike most tank builds does not skimp on DPR. It also can stand its ground against casters thx to its immunities and saves. Also with the right spell u can change up ur abilities on the fly to incluse things like fast healing 5.
so you're saying you're getting shield bonuses, but not monk bonuses?
regardless of the meld or not, you still don't get monk bonuses if you have a shield, just like you wouldn't if wearing armor.
==Aelryinth
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@Aelryinth
That would be so if i was caring a shield but im not and on concerns of armor i wear none and all the ac bonuses i get from being fused with the pet is Natural armor so by technicality im still not wearing any armor or holding any shield. So the character would still get the monk ac bonuses. Also by ur logic that means multi classed monk sorcerers/wizards would lose there monk ac bonuses 1ce they cast the shield spell and buthats who use umd for wands of shield or even those alchemist that use extracts of shield that are also monks would not get there bonuses.
-Monk AC-
When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds his Wisdom bonus (if any) to his AC and his CMD. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC and CMD at 4th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every four monk levels thereafter, up to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.
These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. He loses these bonuses when he is immobilized or helpless, when he wears any armor, when he carries a shield, or when he carries a medium or heavy load.
In my experience, if you don't count exotic exploited builds, paladins are a very solid tank.
Clerics can also be superior tanks, as can fighters.
I am exploring the concept of optimizing an animal companion for tanking. I suspect you can do it, but the result won't really match up to the martial class tanks.
In my experience, if you don't count exotic exploited builds, paladins are a very solid tank.
Clerics can also be superior tanks, as can fighters.
I am exploring the concept of optimizing an animal companion for tanking. I suspect you can do it, but the result won't really match up to the martial class tanks.
You can indeed optimize an animal companion, eidolon, summoned army, etc...as a good tank, for those that have/bring creatures (or for the synth summoner, his fusion form). As long as your actual character can bring to the table as many things as the creature tank lacks, it's totally viable.
For instance, my Druid's companion is a treant (Treesinger). If I can provide him better AC, saves, and more attacks per round, plus make up for his vulnerability to fire with some type of fire resistance or immunity, that makes for a very solid team.
Again, there's a vast difference between your character BEING the tank in the fight and your character BRINGING a tank to the fight. All depends on preference and play style.
If you want to play as the tank, don't expect to be a casting class and bring/summon the tank and have the table run the same way. It won't.
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I do agree that fighters do make excellent tanks. If u scroll up a bit i linked a fighter tank, that i think is decent enough, that is admittedly not a pure fighter. The fighter build i linked in my opinion actually would make a better tank than my Summoner because the tank can actually protect its allies better and negate actual attacks that would of otherwise hit. Summoner on the other hand would be great but does not protect the party and is more of a solo character. Both are great and both can tank depending on ur view of what a tank is and can do being the reason y i linked both not just 1.
pSion, you are listing a magic shield, a real, tangible item, among the gear for that build.
Just like if you use a floating shield with no hands, you use that while melded, you'll lose the monk ac. That's what I'm referring to, not a shield spell.
==Aelryinth