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Goblin Squad Member. RPG Superstar 6 Season Dedicated Voter. *** Pathfinder Society GM. 490 posts (1,305 including aliases). 2 reviews. 1 list. No wishlists. 7 Organized Play characters. 2 aliases.


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The Exchange

Darkwolf117 wrote:
chaiboy wrote:
No save or die spells I am thinking, or for that matter vorpal or other save or die items.

I'll be honest, my character will almost certainly not be using them, but save or die spells are a big part of some classes/builds. Taking them out of the question will pretty much invalidate a number of builds.

Frankly, without save or dies I'm not sure I'll have a way of knocking people out of the competition. Hero points give +8 to a save.. soo I'm PvP I'm not sure wizard builds are even feasible. But I don't think you should rule 'em out.

The Exchange

Build is finished, but I aren't we all publishing them here? Mutual inspection and all?

Raving Dork would be at a significant disadvantage if not - plus I think it will help the GM if the builds are all peer reviewed first.

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Chai boy.. the question also still remains...

Why the d4 for mages. This isn't 3.5....

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chaiboy wrote:
No save or die spells I am thinking, or for that matter vorpal or other save or die items.


Why on earth not? Are you going to make all melee-ers use non-lethal damage? Please let me know I have an undead character (immune to non-lethal damage) I'd love to bring in....

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I prefer no limits on money spent other than WBL but most sane people do indeed limit it to 1/2.

Building up my siege mage as we speak, with mwangi expanse druid spells.. do you know how many dice that things rolls!!!! <jk>

As a note, I came across harshly vis-a-vis Ravingdork. My intent was to contend on the issues. I have nothing but the highest regard for his creativity and contributions to pathfinder, and in no way did I intend any aspersions to him. To the extent I came off that way, my apologies both to him and the thread.

The Exchange

A few comments:

crossbow wielders are suboptimal compared to archers - but there is no *way* you can consider firearms the same. Firearms are quite strong - and while a spell slinging drow gunner may be too steam punk for your vision it would be very strong.

For the witch, threnodic or thanatopic should be considered.

The combination of three fold aspect and lesser time resistance essentially gives her the benefit of 32000 gp of equipment - for free, besides having tons of roleplaying implications.

the beastbonder or master archetype for the witch is *very* strong.

Being a dark elf, you can take advantage of some of the elf feats and alternate class features. I think they would be of use to you.

Finally your group sounds as if it has some stealth options which you would be well equipped to maximize....

The Exchange

Pallid crystal, and/or phylactery of negative (positive) channeling.

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Eversmoking bottle.
Slightly more expensively - a robe of eyes.

But also, I think the real issue is the choice of curse - several of the curses are quite beneficial. Legalistic, blackened, wrecker are for the right builds, quite positive.

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I'm just waiting on the word on guns...

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Ravingdork wrote:

As far as I'm concerned, as part of starting gear, partial wands are standard. In any case, cheesiness is highly subjective, so let's just leave it to chaiboy to decide all that, shall we?

But hey, if you're afraid of my character, you don't have to participate. :P

RAW - wands do not have the number of charges that we want - they either have random number, (which is silly in this kind of competition) or, have full when you craft.

There's no reason to get snarky - I'll go with whatever rules chaiboy wants. If we allow partial wands I'll have about 20 of them in my haversack, with a variety of charges from 2 to 20. It gives an advantage to those that are really willing to do adventures in bookkeeping.

Also, as a competitor, I would claim foul with your idea that you can float in a flying cauldron. The cauldron simply isn't big enough to float in - to stand in - sure. Finally I would note that if it *were* filled with water to a depth of 4 feet - approximating the cauldron as a 4 foot sphere results in 33.5 cu feet of water, with a weight of 2093 lbs - well over the capacity of the cauldron to *fly*.

The Exchange

A few comments for the competition:

Add jousting to your armor.
I do not know how your trusty spiders can clean the guns. Comment, please.
You may wish to consider indomitable mount. Buy a permanent reduce person.

Go look at my zen archer build under ultimate archer for a few other suggestions.

The Exchange

Elamdri is mostly correct.

One thing I would add, is that with poison you are going to greatly benefit from multiple dosages being administered quickly - so I'd look for a rapid shotting bow, rather than a crossbow. Sohei, zen monk something similar.

The Exchange

Raving Dork: My guess would be Bestiary feats are out.

Also, I think partial wands are not allowed under the idea of no nonstandard items. The usefulness (and cheesiness) of partial wands cannot be overstated: and it only makes the math for all participants much more difficult.

Wands, IMNHO need to be purchased at full charges.

The Exchange

1. Many classes have flight as a class feature. Without magic (aka potion of fly) your armored hulk just loses.

2. No one plays pathfinder magic item less. Magic items are as much a feature of the game as class is. Shall we all just play 11th level commoners? Cutting out magic items and you cut out participation of 3/4 of the classes and players.

Renders the concept of 'best' kind of moot.

3. Why not let people play whatever crazy build they want?

4. All magic can be bought by any player - so it isn't a question of accidental cheese thats the issue. There's as much care and thought that goes into your item choice as your classes and stats.

The Exchange

Actually I think the rules are pretty much agreed.. I'd leave the final consensus to the reffs but it looks to me as

11th level
magic items in
hours / level buff (but I'd be okay with 1 buff round)
PFS hit point rules....

I have three builds that could compete under those rules -I'm ok to go with one if people prefer.

The Exchange

Wiggz wrote:
Casters should fight casters and martials should fight martials... so long as combat feats are allowed, I see no reason why feats such as the Eldritch Heritage feats can't be banned...

These are your ideas - they are not the OP's. Op stated any class should be eligible to participate.

If you wish to open your own thread, that thread might also be interesting. But generally speaking I think the more interesting competition as I said a couple of posts ago, is one where you allow people to make the character they want.

There are a lot of trade-offs in the game. You trade BAB for spellcasting, stealth or a dip in another class. You trade Nova ability vs straight line damage.

The point of the OP's competition I think is to determine, over a reasonable set of challenges, what character is the best.

The Exchange

In LG each adventure took a certain number of time units.
Players could use tu's to go on adventures, or to craft.

letting players make choice = good.

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On other topics I'm trying to benefit NON casters.

This is why I suggest something like two contests on the same day, no reseting, two contests on different day, resetting.

Max hit points- it will increase the advantage for martial classes.

Hour buffs: because thats what real characters walk around with everyday.

The Exchange

The idea of having no magic items is *ridiculous*.

This means archers with a one or two feat dip via eldritch heritage so they can fly *win*.

The competition is supposed to be who is the strongest. Putting limits on what magic items you can and then saying it is a valid test for the strongest character - why not equally validly say you must use a dull spoon as the only weapon.

It doesn't establish who is the best. *Increase* the scope of the competition, don't decrease it if you want to have the title of "Best".

If I want a wand of dim door to bring my hulk to full attack on your a**... suck it up. If you can't take it .. you don't belong in the competition.

The Exchange

Resets favor nova builds and spell casters.

I'd also favor max hp to maximize the difference between casters and fighter classes.

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Firengineer wrote:
cp wrote:

Half elf can choose a different class as a favored class. Cleric. Druid. Whatever.

Half elf can then activate wands of that class. You can then use those wands with spell combat.

In a similar vein, samsaran (for bard, summoner, wizard, witch spells) and eldritch heritage can accomplish some of the same.

How exactly do any of these work? The spell in the wand must be in your class' spell list in order to use the wand without making a Use Magic Device check.

Exactly the point. The half elf may activate the wand without UMD since he counts as a first level wizard (or whatever): and the spell is on his class list. Alternate racial ability, (arcane training?) replacing its dual favored classes.

The Exchange

More rules suggestions:

Hours per level buffs ok.
Permanency Ok.
No to PFS restrictions.
No partial magic item purchases. Wands, rods etc must be made/purchased full.

Since my idea of it is to have the player play in something like 8 fights, I would allow things like incense of meditation. Its the standard consumable vs permanent trade off.

No changing gear between events.

The Exchange

I'd suggest 11, rather than 10 - a lot of abilities kick in at 11 across classes. WBL for 11.

I suggested include mooks because one of the measures of a good build is how well does it tolerate crowds.

I suggest we have a pattern - 2 encounters on the same day, then 1 each the next two days. The double encounters will put a crimp on spell casters. No consumable recovery.

I think all books in -, no custom races.

As for Rage Lance pounce - just follow the errata rules. No tripled damage on the iteratives (which was absolutely obvious anyway).

Id like to suggest we conduct the fights with d20pro or roll20 (free desktop gaming software). I'll see if I can get them interested.

No leadership.

"Knocked out, put to sleep, turned to stone, dominated, and any other condition that leaves contestant helpless is a win": I suggest the other player has one round to recover. After one round, its a win.

The Exchange

NeoSeraphi wrote:
And the aasimar is actually a worse option. Changing your steed to a magical beast prevents it from being affected by the animal growth spell....

Except Aasimar has a feat that allows you to affect it with animal growth etc.

The Exchange

I second the suggestion to make this *not* level 20.
The amount of time to make the builds, the possibility to screw up the builds, the length of time to adjudicate things like
Time stop, summon 634 archons... increases exponentially.

We *might* get paizo support on a christmas tourney if we did it 11th level, and then use the mythic rules.

Off the top of my head: Here are the things that are important:

1. Range
2. Concealment
3. Hostile mooks: L/2 will attack closest player.
4. Rounds of buff allowed.
5. Is your opponents build known or unknown

I'd suggest 5 or 6 arenas, with a variety of these combinations.

I'd suggest that we not allow LeaderShip, since this is best character, not best supporting cast. All other combinations legit.

For personal opinion, I think any restriction of how you spend money is arbitrary and unnecessary. Who cares?

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Trick: cast invis on a door to see in....

The Exchange

I support the idea, and I'd like to see the results. I suggested something similar a long time ago:

Pathfinder Gladiator.

Each player builds a stable of characters. The ref announces an arena (rules for the fight).

Round robin scoring. The reason you need multiple different arenas is to get an overall victor.

Straight 1:1 fight takes one set of skills.
1:1 fight against a flying dragon emphasizes a different set of skills.
1:1 fight against 12 shadows.. yet a different set.

The Exchange

Scarred Witchdoctor gives Con Based spellcasting. I thought to add a poison based attacked (serpentine, for example). However a 1 con dmg poison is really too slow to be effective.

I'm not looking to use poison. I'm looking for a way to add a con based attack to utilize the high con of a witchdoctor.

I'd prefer without more than a 1 level dip...

The Exchange

Killstring wrote:

@ Wasum

At first level, a Sorcerer has 3 level 1 spells/day. A Wizard has 1....

A bunch of things soft of roll around to make the statement that optimized wizards typically have around the same number of spells that sorcs do.

1. Thassilonian. = +2 spells per level
2. Familiars 'casting' from wands. If not casting, arcane item giving free spell (usually highest level).
3. Both Sorcs and Wizards are SAD classes. But with blood lines, wizards tend to be slightly more SAD and thus have slightly more bonus spells, as well as bonus spells recovered through items.

A sorceror, stripped naked and put in an antimagic cell is still probably hosed like the rest of us.

The Exchange

Crosswind wrote:

Totally fair. But parties can usually figure out stuff like Stoneskin, Shield, Protection from elements, etc, pretty fast ("Hey, that didn't work like it was supposed to"). With that spellcraft, it's not metagaming.

It's probably up to DM interpretation, but "I'd like to smash the spell that's making him harder to hit" is probably a legit way to target anything from shield to mage armor.

-Cross (I may play in a more lenient game than standard, this way)

Yep, I totally agree on things like stoneskin. Its why I gave the example of simpler non-apparent things like charm person, dominate, bullstrength.


Surviving to a level 13 barbarian with Superstition takes just as much teamwork and group tactics as surviving to level 13 with any other class, except a little less, since you won't need the cleric to remove your paralysis, curses, or petrification.

Its not *quite* that cut and dried. Lets just agree it reduces the need for the cleric to remove your paralysis, curses, or petrification more often.

You'll still fail on a 1, and on an occasional bad roll, especially with things like misfortune or mythic.


Has anyone tried out a dwarf fighter build with Shatter Spell (essentially Spell Sunder)? Would it also be worthy, or is it just too inferior to consider?

Spell Breaker
Shatter Spell (dwarf only)

Still its a solid build. The dwarf build is also great, completely different feel, and it works well with several different builds.

The Exchange

Fiendish Flying Carrion crawler with pounce.

can you say tons of saves vs paralyzation?

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Crosswind wrote:
cp wrote:

But playing in character it is very difficult to know that a charm person, spell immunity etc is in effect.

Just out of curiosity, how often have you played in a campaign where no characters in the party have spellcraft? Because probably 60 or 70% of the classes in the game get it, and most people who get it take it (because it's excellent).

I would think that a party calling out "Hey, smash that man's stony skin!" would be absolute standard. Teamwork at its best. =)


True, but not the issue. The way that combats tend to work is pre-buffed opponents attack the party.

Rarely do I see any of the aforementioned classes taking the actions necessary to determine the buffs. Usually, its: Hey, cast haste. Hey - divine favor. Summon Wildebeast!

The Exchange

I do it all the time.
Recent clarification that boosting the AC intelligence does not obviate a handle animal check will dampen my enthusiasm a bit.

I'm also particularly fond of it on a T-rex with its 2x strength bonus.
It can also be useful if you go with Eldritch Heritage: Arcane for for your familiars, or if you are setting up an Eidolon.

The Exchange

The biggest weakness to spell sunder are not really apparent.

Spell sunder is great against walls of flame.

However, just like schroedinger's wizard there is shroedingers barbarian. How would a barbarian lacking detect magic, or spellcasting know that certain spell effects are on an opponent.

So, playing with meta knowledge the barbarian might sunder a spell immunity, bull's strength, or charm person. But playing in character it is very difficult to know that a charm person, spell immunity etc is in effect.

Secondly, there is still a factor of action economy.
A spell caster can cast slow (or haste) on an entire group of characters. A barbarian sunders it - one character at a time.

So, overall- its a great ability. Just a little care needs to be excised in its adjudication.

The Exchange

10, usually.

from the 8-12 range you've only paid/gained 1 point per stat point, so it is usually very efficient to buy it up to 12 so that even after the racial hits, you have a 10.

After that it depends on approach. I worry more about fort saves than I do about hitpoints - so if I'm building a charisma based character I'll go with Stoic (sodden lands affinity) to get the charisma bonus to fort save.

So one feat buys typically by mid game a +9 to fort save.

The Exchange


Eldritch heritage says you count as a Sorc -2 for the purposes of the bloodline.

The bloodline says you qualify as a wizard equal to your sorc level for the purposes of detemining the powers of your familiar. It says that regular wizard levels stack.

Improved Familiar says "When choosing a familiar, the creatures listed here are also available to you. You may choose a familiar with an alignment up to one step away on each alignment axis (lawful through chaotic, good through evil)."

RAW and RAI - I see no controversy.

The Exchange

Ed-Zero wrote:
One aspect of the Zen Archer that people seem to not be taking advantage of is their Ki Arrows ability.

Nah Ed - I used the Ki arrows as part of my goblin build a page or two back. Permanent reduce person for the bonus to hit, ki arrows for the damage.

The Exchange

The Zen archer up to level 11 or so.

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To OP:

Trippers / Grapplers tend to do well in low to mid game, and not as well late into the campaign - 15-20. Can be done, wouldn't be my first choice.

You indicated Monk - in the level you indicated the sweet power spot for a Zen archer monk. Go look at the build I posted under ultimate archer.


The Exchange

Ya did good.

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No, your versatility doesn't make you useful.

If you want to be versatile take a summoner; or take a samsaran wizard. Take healing or buff spells from the bards list.

Or take Mbangi and add a few druid spells to your wizard list.

If you compare a well created pure caster: for example thassionian evoker with a high primary stat - you have so many spells it really doesn't matter.

If you *still* want versatility - take a bonded item; leave a spell slot open for rapid learning, and buy pearls of power, carry wands / scrolls.
And finally take spell specialization or preferred spell, so you can convert utility spells (glitterdust) into your preferred spell.

The Exchange

Animal companions can be effective tanks - but you shouldn't expect them to be equal to a fighter.

Think about it.. why play a fighter if playing a druid gives you a fighter equivalent + spellcaster.

The Exchange

Something to consider:

Half elf can choose a different class as a favored class. Cleric. Druid. Whatever.

Half elf can then activate wands of that class.

You can then use those wands with spell combat.

In a similar vein, samsaran (for bard, summoner, wizard, witch spells)
and eldritch heritage can accomplish some of the same.

The Exchange

Weirdo wrote:
cp wrote:

I do think that friends would be able to make suggestions without needing a handle animal score. But the flip side is you don't have the ability to communicate clearly.


If you are a dwarf in a parties of dwarves - and your int 1 attacks things in dungeons - do you attack things when you go to a human town?

That's going too far. Animal intelligence is perfectly capable of mimicry - an Int 1 Feebleminded character should be perfectly capable of observing that his friends aren't attacking these new creatures and that therefore they aren't to be attacked.

That was entirely my point. If you are going to hang back and mimic what your "friends" do in town - you should have the same behavior in the dungeon. Ie., look to see what your "friends" are doing - since you don't know.

The Exchange

The solution to a summoner / wizard "tank" is a simple ready action.
This makes them the "untank".

Wizard has mirror image? Look for a brooch of shielding: then ready magic missile on spell casting.

MM ignore mirror image. Wizard will never get another turn - as the enemy just repeats the tactic again. And if you want to attack with your pathetic bab..feel free.

Same thing with summoner. Ready on casting. All of a sudden: there are no summoned critters. Wizard on the front lines = dead wizard on the front lines.

The Exchange


are 3/4 bab.
have wildshape
are castors

The same thing that makes them versatile also contributes to them not being overpowered.

If a druid concentrates states for spell casting - his stats will not support useful wildshaping.

Spreading his stats, he will never compete with the spells / day or DC's of top flight casters.

If he wants to cast and wildshape - he needs to invest feat to do it while wildshaped. This puts him behind the feat tree of a pure caster as well.

Specialization works...

The Exchange

Well, I'm with weirdo on this one. It is the province of the GM to adjucate what happens when things that are not covered by the RAW happen.

Fall 300 feet into a 3 feet puddle of acid...GM call.

I think the guidelines for handling a 1 int fighter and a 1 int animal are pretty good.

I do think that friends would be able to make suggestions without needing a handle animal score. But the flip side is you don't have the ability to communicate clearly.

The one int character has no idea what opponents are. No idea if he SHOULD hit something. Everytime the ref places a monster it is presumably an unknown entity (unless perhaps it is a racial enemy).

If you are a dwarf in a parties of dwarves - and your int 1 attacks things in dungeons - do you attack things when you go to a human town?

GM should not announce what creatures are.

Cannot activate magic items. Does not know what potions are. Does not know how to open them...

The Exchange

johnlocke90 wrote:
Thomas Long 175 wrote:

water is for all intents and purposes considered incompressible in liquid phase. Seeing as how the decanter of endless water lists a flow rate it must have an applied pressure to reach this rate.

AKA the decanter of endless water will not have enough pressure to significantly compress the water and when the pressure of the flow and the pressure of the water equalize the flow will stabalize and nothing should happen.

Basically you can calculate pressure from the endless decanter based on flow rate, density of water, and the size of the nozzle and you'll know where the pressure in the liquid should equalize.

This is a pretty big assumption. Nowhere does it state that the flow rate of water is dependent on the environment. It simply lists a flow rate for the water out of the decanter. What you are suggesting is that I change the flow rate from the listed value. Ultimately it doesn't matter though. Even if I accept your houserules, the water could be shot out of an air bubble or life shell and obtain the same results.

Also, water is considered incompressible for most intents and purposes. Not all. There is research into how water compresses at high and low pressures.

Yeah, but irrelevent.

Way before your decanter of water does anything interesting to the planar walls, or causes water to go solid or anything else like that:

the decanter is crushed as the pressure exceeds its structural strength.
And it doesn't matter if its in an air bubble or not: the air bubble will compress in size and the pressure within the air bubble is the same as the pressure in the water.

So, if you won't take the word of a mechanical engineer - take the word of a chemical engineer, a discipline that specializes in liquid reactions and flows.

The Exchange

Overall best spell?
I'd say limited wish: much more available than wish, and able to replicate most other spells.

After that, my choice is probly dazing magic missle, lineaged to 3rd.
Dazing Snapdrag fireworks.

Out of wands, I'm fnd of summoners ddoor.

The Exchange

So in summary:

50 x advantage in treating shuriken as weapons, but not requiring each to be enchanted separately.

Incorrectly allowing multiple sneaks due to invisibility. If its a surprise round, in the absence of feats that allow a full action in the surprise round, you only get a standard action.

Too many swift actions being applied.

Incorrectly applying DR (applied against each shuriken)

And not taking standard precautions / defenses that a rakshasa should have (extended duration mage armor).

I'm also willing to bet that the range penalties have not been taken into account.

And you're surprised...

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