A world where all the bad things in APs come true

[Son of the Veterinarian]

Cole Deschain wrote:

Pendagast wrote:

The whole world doesn't end with that scenario, just kyonin.

The Dark elf thing is much smaller than the original aboleth thing

If I drop a meteor capable of wiping out France, it's just silly to assume that nobody else is going to take any damage.

So. Many. Jokes....

[Pendagast]

the whole world would gain something without france, and in golarion, halflings would become a much more popular choice with all the elves gone... so again a win win for everyone who is NOT the target of falling rocks.

[Reed Starling]

Pendagast wrote:

the whole world would gain something without france, and in golarion, halflings would become a much more popular choice with all the elves gone... so again a win win for everyone who is NOT the target of falling rocks.

A good point! I think you'll find that we halflings are like cockroaches; you couldn't get rid of us if you tried. ;)

[Pendagast]

so new ending to the story, rocks fall, halflings multiply! (what's IN those rocks? fertilizer??)

[Lord Snow]

if Pathfinder Comics exists long enough, maybe we will start seeing wacky things like this!

Pathfinder #999: Runegiants Vs. Serpentfolk Vs. Dark Elves Vs. Zon Kuthons's Horde Vs. Xin himself!

[Banizal]

Mikaze wrote:

Andrea1 wrote:

Drow would no doubt be hostile to the Serpent Folk and visa-versa.

This is a campaign that needs to happen.

And now we need the fleshwarping results for serpentfolk!

im thinking something like Yuan-Ti Abominations...3.x Serpent Kingdoms ftw!

[Zhangar]

To comment on Adivion being stuck at Gallowspire - while Adivion himself would have a limited range of action, the various lieutenants of Tar-Baphon that would be checking in on Gallowspire would have no such limitations. Adivion's call to arms would result in a massive number of CR 17+ demons and undead rising up across Ustalav, who would readily subjugate the land and begin the process of hunting down the Great Seals.

Weirdly enough, I could see the Ustalavic county of Barstoi remaining as the barrier between Ustalav and the Worldwound, as Barstoi is a really horrible place in its own right and may well be left alone.

Once Adivion's forces took Caliphas they'd be able to engage Lastwall on multiple fronts. Once they took Versex county they'd be neighbors with Razmir. It'd be the Dm's discretion as to whether Adivion could win Razmir's allegiance with an offer of lichdom. Either way, war with the River Kingdoms will soon follow.

Second Darkness blotting out the sun would work well to Adivion's advantage - Lord Malyas and his vampire army could roam at will, adding ever more to their numbers. Elvanna turning the world into an ice cube wouldn't be quite as useful, but still wouldn't hinder Adivion in the slightest.

Once the seals are gathered and Tar-Baphon's actually freed from Gallowspire, very little could be done. Ydersius could sort of fight Tar-Baphon (amusingly enough, Ydersius's big thing is that he's incredibly toxic and has mind control abilities, which is kind of useless against Tyrant and his undead horde), but if Ydersius is busy subjugating Garund it'll be centuries before they ever met.

Ileosa, Karzoug, and Elvanna would have considerably more to worry about. The gap between Tar-Baphon and the AP final bosses is huge - Mhar or some other Great Old One (or a really powerful rune lord, like Sorshen) waking up would simply mean the arrival of someone in Tar-Baphon's weight class.

[roguerouge]

I'm putting my money on Rasputin.

[Enlight_Bystand]

Second Darkness happening is probably the most damaging scenario. To quote from Descent into Midnight that I happened to finish reading today, if Alkevrah wins:

"the falling star strikes true and destroys Kyonin... And many of the neighbouring nations. The darkness created by the explosion as ash is hurled into the sky blots out the sun for months, triggering a terrible death of plant life and animal life across Golarion"

Effectively, the majority of people still alive a year later will be those with acess to create food and water. Second darkness isn't as massive a disaster as the first, but that's only because First Darkness is an event that by all rights should have turned Golarion into a lifeless hulk.

[Tacticslion]

Dot for the awesome.

[Tirisfal]

Dotting this as well :D

[Alleran]

I'm going to resurrect this thread from the depths of the third page.

*casts resurrection*

So there are more worst-case scenarios (one really big one) to account for in a hypothetical Golarion where the PCs failed miserably.

1) Although it's less major than the others, Xin regaining the Sihedron and unleashing a clockwork army could become a power player, especially since he was around CR 21 without access to his spellcasting. Gaining the powers of a 20th level universalist wizard and the rest of the Sihedron's powers would bump him up several CR points, and his clockwork armies cannot be undead-ified by the Tyrant. He'd probably run into Mhar eventually if he intends to rebuild Thassilon, and he's likely a lesser threat than the other two on this list, but it bears watching.

2) Elvanna ascends to the position of Queen of Witches, gaining access to some or all of her mother's immense mythic power (and as Baba Yaga is a CR 30 fully-mythic entity with 10 tiers, even half of that is a lot). She amasses an army of monsters, dark fae and winter madness, and with the Winter Collectors spewing out ice and cold all across Golarion, begins her offensive (and given #3 below, she will have no trouble at all in subjugating the Linnorm Kings... in fact, they'd probably be happy to join up, since Elvanna is by far the preferred option to Demons Kill Everything).

3) The Worldwound goes BOOM and expands. This is the big one, second only to Second Darkness and Rocks Fall in devastation (quite possibly topping even Tar-Baphon's release). The Silver Mount blows itself up with a nuclear warhead, the River Kingdoms are overrun, Mendev is crushed, Ustalav (and presumably the released Tar-Baphon plus his undead hordes) is in their path as a buffer zone, and demonic hordes assault the planet (possibly all across it, depending on how they decide to teleport, especially with the Wardstones gone). There are no mythic heroes left after they failed, so the Fifth Crusade falls apart, and behind the demons are Deskari (CR 29, even if he doesn't show his face on the Material Plane), Baphomet (CR 27), and Areelu Vorlesh (CR 27, high-mythic, active agent in the Worldwound), along with the Storm King (CR 25) and others.

3a) Of course, if Baphomet was slain and Alderpash freed, that means there's somebody wandering around making strides in research to summon the Oliphaunt of Jandelay back to Golarion, too...

Taking these into account, does anybody have theories on further progression of post-apocalypse Golarion? What happens next?

The demons are definitely going to be a contender against the Tyrant - Areelu Vorlesh is in Tar-Baphon's weight class, and the expanding Worldwound will run right up against Ustalav. The "After the Campaign" article in City of Locusts does mention what happens in Ustalav as the Worldwound advances, but with Tar-Baphon already free as opposed to still imprisoned, that probably falls apart.

(Garund may not be as greatly affected, since while the winter will possibly wreak havoc, it has Ydersius to deal with as Elvanna, the Worldwound and Xin primarily operate in Avistan first. There's the potential for something to happen in Mummy's Mask, but I doubt it'll be on the same scale as entire armies of serpentfolk with a living god at their head.)

[Mikaela Delshandra]

I am loving this thread.

[Wrong John Silver]

You know, the section of the River Kingdoms getting ripped out and sent to the First World might just rejoice at their fate, considering how it otherwise becomes the battleground for Elvanna's winter armies and the Worldwound hordes.

[Alleran]

Wrong John Silver wrote:

You know, the section of the River Kingdoms getting ripped out and sent to the First World might just rejoice at their fate, considering how it otherwise becomes the battleground for Elvanna's winter armies and the Worldwound hordes.

I believe I mentioned it, as did a few others further back in the thread, but yes. It's amusing that Nyrissa winning in Kingmaker and scooping up an entire kingdom to place it in a bottle in the First World is, in these scenarios, one of the best possible outcomes.

Assuming that the players win in Kingmaker but no other AP, you're left with their kingdom right in the path of the advancing demon horde. Now, this might buy time as a holding action. However, I personally find it unlikely. the full force of the horde is going to hammer away at the PCs kingdom unless they can construct wardstones to contain themselves rather than the demons. That way, they might have a border they can throw their armies at and which demons couldn't readily cross. On the other hand, that's also inviting the Storm King to do what he did to Kenabres all over again. So ultimately, I don't think it's going to be of any use, and is rendered moot by what happens just to the south and west.

At the bottom of the River Kingdoms is the border with Kyonin. The place that's going to be hit by a repeat of Earthfall:

"If the PCs haven't destroyed any of the focus glyphs when this [Second Darkness happens] occurs, the falling star strikes true and destroys Kyonin, and many of the neighboring nations. The darkness created by the explosion as ash is hurled into the sky blots out the sun for months, triggering a terrible death of plant life and animal life across Golarion. Kyonin is transformed into a massive crater, the base of which runs molten for some time, incidentally filling the Land of Black Blood with lava and killing everything within. The event isn't huge enough to truly end the world, or even enough to approach the level of devastation caused 10,000 years ago, but it's enough to change the face of the world."

At the west of the River Kingdoms is the border with Numeria, and in the end of WotR the following happens:

"Hastily assembling the purported weapon, an engineer accidentally triggers the device and a blinding explosion rocks Starfall, reducing the city to a pile of ash spread around a deep crater. The explosion can be seen for miles, and its mushroom-shaped cloud billows high into the air. Radioactive dust veils the sun and the Inner Sea's winds spread this deadly mix far and wide."

Based on the River Kingdoms (and the PCs kingdom) being right next door to Kyonin and Numeria, they will have an asteroid impact wiping them out from the south and blotting out the sun with ash, and a nuclear warhead going off and veiling what's left of the sunlight (and giving them all radiation poisoning, so they'd better have RAW-abusing resetting-cure-traps ready). And on top of that, they're going to descend into an eternal winter as Elvanna's portals open up all across Golarion.

They're doomed and the elves are screwed. The asteroid hitting Kyonin is even a good thing, because if it hits around the same time as the demons are advancing, it will at least take all the Kyonin demons with it. Their only way out is if Nyrissa wins. Because if she does, she sweeps up the entire kingdom into a bottle and takes it with her to the First World, leaving nothing behind but a barren wasteland. Nothing left to destroy, but while I'm sure it might have been a valiant holding action, the Kingmaker kingdom would never survive.

Since I've gone this far, though, I may as well keep on going.

---

What might actually save something is Elvanna and possibly Ustalav. The Worldwound expansion map shows the demons pushing rapidly into the River Kingdoms and overrunning it, but only expand through about half of the Realm of the Mammoth Lords. They get as far as the mountain range, at which point their expansion slows. Since the Mammoth Lords will side with Elvanna, and the Linnorm Kings will also take Irrisen as an ally, that's one "rescued" section of Golarion (albeit an eternal winter, but it's better than the alternatives).

However, what we have as a problem is that Xin-Shalast is in the Kodar Mountains. With it, Mhar.

Yeah. That Mhar.

What I see happening is that Mhar wakes up. This is going to create a giant hole that chops off the bottom end of the Mammoth Lords, creates a big problem for the demons in the region and shoving them back further, and blocks Irrisen off from Varisia in the east, isolating the Irriseni-Linnorm-Mammoth alliance from the south (short of going off to the west, away from the front lines). Next, Xin is SW of Mhar, and his clockwork army is going to have two problems. The first one is that Belkzen is a mass of chaos. What Xin will need to do is make an alliance with Karzoug and Alderpash (war makes strange bedfellows, I suppose), and the three of them can then establish a holding pattern against the orcs and Worldwound expansion west into Varisia proper, probably drawing the line at the eastern edge of the Storval Plateau. That will keep Varisia somewhat secure, and I for one welcome the new clockwork overlords! (No radioactivity issues, unless the clockwork army becomes a radioactive clockwork army.) Also, the two Runelords coupled with the First King will probably be able to put the rest of the Oliphaunt ritual back together... and that gives them a buffer against Areelu, the Storm King, Tar-Baphon, hells, even Deskari himself in all his unholy glory. Their ace in the hole.

Next, Ustalav. City of Locusts describes what happens, but we can throw that out the window, because in this scenario, the Whispering Tyrant is awake. His undead hordes are in the Cenotaph, lots of them are Mythic (capital M), he has Xin-Grafar, he's a CR 26 MR 10 mythic lich. The demons do have a few things capable of taking him in a fight. The Storm King is a possibility (unlikely, I think, but possible), as is Areelu. The obliteration of Kyonin doesn't bother his undead hordes, and neither does the nuclear warhead in Numeria or Elvanna's winter. Undead, after all. Ustalav is going to become the new Mendev, a dark echo of it with undead versus demons. He'll have Mhar and Thassilon 2.0 in the west, but they have their own problems, really. Ironically, though, he's kind of walled in, although if he wants to expand then southward against the Confederacy (see just below) is his best bet. What I think will happen here then is that he'll maintain his power base, but he'll be under continual pressure from the demons.

Lastwall, Nirmathas and Molthune will probably still form the West Encarthan Confederacy. On the other side of the lake they have Demons Killing Everything and the asteroid impact, and they'll be suffering radioactive issues, but still. Now, Cheliax to the southwest of the Confederacy has Thassilon 2.0 to the north, but I can see the Inner Sea Alliance still forming. However, Galt is screwed because the asteroid impact is going to ruin large swathes of it (and Five Kings Mountains are gone), meaning that Lake Encarthan is going to be the battleground. Or rather, I should say, what used to be Lake Encarthan, because that asteroid impact is going to wipe it out and give the demons a route in. So you have the Confederacy struggling with Tar-Baphon in Ustalav, and likely we'll see some pitched battles in what used to be the lake. Even if the lake survives, we're still going to be seeing the front lines over the water and on the Isle of Terror. If there's enough pressure on the Tyrant from the demons, the Confederacy would even be free to push more strongly on their eastern front.

Similarly to the Confederacy, you'll still get the Inner Sea Alliance between Cheliax, Andoran and Taldor. Galt is going to be ruined by the asteroid, and the giant molten crater that used to be Kyonin is going to mean that the demons will have to come at it a different way if they can't teleport, and so Galt, probably the Fog Peaks specifically, will be their front line. If Isger lives, it'll be their second front line, giving access up through what's left of Druma to Lake Encarthan.

I'm going to predict that Nidal will become a border/buffer against Thassilon 2.0 for the Alliance, however. Xin only needs to cross the bay and he can hit the coastline. Zon-Kuthon's shadow won't bother his clockworks, and Nidal will probably switch from Cheliax politically, or at least fade away from it somewhat. It still has its links with Cheliax and the First Shadow (etc.), but it's a bit of a question mark.

The south, and Garund specifically, I'll touch on some other time. I've done quite enough writing for now, so I'll leave off with a map of what the Inner Sea's new alliances and their borders might look like:

http://s22.postimg.org/skbqpihsg/Avistan_Map_Postapocalypse.jpg

(Is it just me, or was Mengkare really smart when he staged his eugenics program way out in the middle of the ocean?)

Behold my MSPaint skills. Anyway, that's Avistan, all divided up among the various apocalypses. Oh, the average temperature is also below zero, thanks to Elvanna. The sky is blotted out with ash, thanks to Kyonin exploding. And Avistan is radioactive because of that engineer in Numeria who screwed the pooch for everyone.

Thassilon 2.0 (with Xin, Karzoug and possibly Alderpash) coupled with Mhar's awakening really does a number on Elvanna's ambitions of empire, as do the demons. The RoW failure ending does mention that she leaves the Worldwound alone for the moment and goes south to sweep Varisia and Ustalav, but Mhar awakening coupled with Tar-Baphon's freedom basically limits her to a single route, which would take her through Thassilon 2.0 and thus put her up against the armies of Xin (and possibly Karzoug as well if he can recreate the Leng Device). Fafnheir may bail on the Linnorm Kingdoms and head on down to join up with his old boss's boss Xin, adding another heavyweight (albeit not one of quite the same level as perhaps Elvanna, Areelu or the Tyrant, he's not to be underestimated). And the expansion of the Worldwound and the Failure options from that indicate that the Irriseni do swing east to take on the encroaching hordes, so I would predict a very uneasy border between those two power factions.

I'd kind of like to play in this setting.

[Scaevola77]

I believe in Council of Thieves, the really bad ending has Mammon being brought to the Material Plane. Which means Cheliax is going to be dealing with or taken over by an archdevil.

[Alleran]

Admittedly I haven't played Council of Thieves, so I just checked to see what the given worst result is, which seemed to basically be Westcrown becoming a staging point for Mammon on the Material Plane (ruled by his son) that fell far into infernal worship (further than the rest of Cheliax, anyway), furthering the desires and plans of Asmodeus.

However, while Asmodeus may not be too interested in the Worldwound according to the write-up in City of Locusts, the Hellknights are, and they can contribute most of what Cheliax needs, even if Cheliax is itself less desiring to lend their aid. In fact, it says as much, that the Hellknights do the recruiting and training of a surge of volunteers (hundreds each day). And there's at least one Infernal Duke (plus an army of devils) that also add themselves to the cause.

Worst case if Cheliax has an archdevil arrive on the Material, Andoran and Taldor are alone in their alliance, and Cheliax is busy consolidating itself with Nidal, further into infernal worship than even Thrune would want to risk. But I don't know that it'll get that far really. It would produce another potential power in the post-apocalypse world, but I don't think it vastly alters matters. Cheliax is already a ways off from most of the catastrophes.

Said archdevil would also need to watch himself, since with all these apocalypses, there are several individuals more than capable of going toe-to-toe with him. Generally the leaders of opposing new-nations, though.

[Squeakmaan]

I am now interested in playing a campaign where the players are people from the lands Nyrissa captured slowly making their way back into a shattered world.

[Andrea1]

Perhaps have Mhar be the wandering monster of the world with everyone, including the demons trying to hot potato It to the other side.

"No! Over there, no tasty people are here."

[thenovalord]

Wrong John Silver wrote:

You know, the section of the River Kingdoms getting ripped out and sent to the First World might just rejoice at their fate, considering how it otherwise becomes the battleground for Elvanna's winter armies and the Worldwound hordes.

Yep. Happened in our KM and the players would feel smug n snug

[poiuyt]

Didn't Carrion Crown also have aliens trying to summon an Outer God? (Wake of the Watcher)

[Mikaela Delshandra]

Guy St-Amant wrote:

Didn't Carrion Crown also have aliens trying to summon an Outer God? (Wake of the Watcher)

Yes it does but I believe the point of this exercise is that the heroes fail on the final encounter not any of the fights leading up to it.

[poiuyt]

Mikaela Delshandra wrote:

Guy St-Amant wrote:

Didn't Carrion Crown also have aliens trying to summon an Outer God? (Wake of the Watcher)

Yes it does but I believe the point of this exercise is that the heroes fail on the final encounter not any of the fights leading up to it.

It seems that not everyone follow those guidelines/rules.

[Alleran]

Guy St-Amant wrote:

Didn't Carrion Crown also have aliens trying to summon an Outer God? (Wake of the Watcher)

Yes. That event would be worse than Mhar or the Worldwound. I expect that a full manifestation would shatter everything in and around Lake Encarthan. There'd be no Confederacy, likely no Ustalav (although the undead arguably wouldn't be hugely bothered by the madness aspect, so Virlych could yet survive), and you'd have another huge blockage against the demons from the Worldwound, cutting their invasion routes down to around through the remains of Galt into Taldor, or through the Realm of the Mammoth Lords (what's left of it) to strike at Elvanna's alliance.

(Although if Shub-Niggy goes too far east and lets the asteroid smack it in the head, it might go the way of Amaznen and Acavna. Unlikely, but possible.)

The full manifestation of an Outer God basically turns Golarion, even post-apocalypse Golarion, into a battleground between Shub-Niggurath and Ydersius. The serpent god is literally the only contender who is anywhere near the weight class you'd need. Even the Worldwound becomes small potatoes.

Quote:

It seems that not everyone follow those guidelines/rules.

I'm assuming that the PCs fail somewhere in the last book. Not necessarily the absolute final encounter (hence Mhar's awakening and Tar-Baphon's release, because those are more interesting failures).

[Dracovar]

@Alleran - that's some fine work there. But, just a note, I rather doubt a single nuclear event at Starfall would seriously irradiate all of Avistan. You wouldn't want to be downwind, obviously, but even if it was something on the scale of Tsar Bomba there is only so much damage it could do. I merely point that out because, well, we on Earth have triggered a few nuclear events of our own. Like 2000+.

Check out this fun timeline of nuclear testing, 1945-1998:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV18EBBA4ZQ

Starfall is a hiccup compared to the Kyonin Event. I've been trying to figure out what might work for calculating the damage as described in the AP using this site:

http://www.purdue.edu/impactearth/

Enjoy.

[Alleran]

Dracovar wrote:

@Alleran - that's some fine work there. But, just a note, I rather doubt a single nuclear event at Starfall would seriously irradiate all of Avistan. You wouldn't want to be downwind, obviously, but even if it was something on the scale of Tsar Bomba there is only so much damage it could do. I merely point that out because, well, we on Earth have triggered a few nuclear events of our own. Like 2000+.

I'm going off the reference in City of Locusts, that the detonation could be seen for miles (and we really don't have any idea just how powerful it was, other than that it completely wiped out the entirety of Starfall and turned it into a "pile of ash spread around a deep crater") and spreads enough radioactive dust to veil the sun before the winds then also send it far and wide across the Inner Sea, so really, everywhere is downwind.

It's the "veil the sun" thing that does it. But yes, it's probably less powerful than the asteroid impact on Kyonin, which turns the whole area into a giant crater and punches hard enough into the crust that it floods the Land of Black Blood (in Orv) with lava.

Also, after continually throwing asteroids at Earth in that second link, I'm roughly working off something about 1.3km across and with the density of iron hitting at a 90 degree angle at the maximum speed allowed. Maybe. The next default level up is something the size of London, which is probably too big.

[Psiphyre]

I think the effects of the impact on the surviving nations of the Inner Sea (of which there'd be fewer than assumed) is rather underestimated. Also, such effects would be of great benefit to Irrisen's plans but of significant detriment to those of Ydersius & his serpentfolk (at least for the the short term).

Thoughts, based on Alleran's map:

Hmm... If that big red dot on the map is the size of the crater that results from SD, then what happens to all the surrounding nations is VASTLY underestimated! I really don't think there'll be much left of the surrounding nations and those on the farshore of Lake Encarthan (Druma, Razmiran, all but the eastern-most River Kingdoms & Galt, eastern & northeastern Molthune, southeastern & southern Ustalav, eastern Lastwall, coastal Nirmathas, much of the Verduran Forest i.e. northwestern-most Taldor & northeastern Andoran, possibly half of Isger) to mount much of a resistance to an invasion force in the aftermath of the impact. Certainly not if you take the tidal waves, seismic convulsions, impact shockwave, molten ejecta shot out into near orbit, forest fires/infernoes from the fireball effect, (etc.), into consideration.

(It could be argued that all of the above effects would hinder any invasion force - even that of demons [whom one'd thin would be fine with it, overall, if the descriptions of the Abyss are to be believed...]. However, the economies of the surviving nations, at the very least, would be in tatters [Lake Encarthan is a major trade hub for all of the nations surrounding it], which would greatly hobble any effort to organise a defensive or conquering army. Surely?)

Perhaps I'm over-estimating the catastrophe (I don't have the exact details of the impact-object-'BBEG' from SD), but I doubt there will be much left to form the West Encarthan Confederacy, & there wouldn't be much for Tar-Baphon to conquer in the southern and eastern areas of the region demarcated as his on the map.

And let's not forget the effect that an impact-induced winter (even if it lasted but a year) would have on the capabilty of most of the nations to hold an effective alliance, let alone defense, against armies that may not be particularly affected by the widespread famine caused by the loss of food crops and livestock (mainly extraplanar, but possibly including undead if the "raw materials" - i.e. corpses - weren't vaporised during the impact).A year without the sun can cause havoc on ecosystems that rely on it.

And before someone mentions the centuries(?)/ millennia(?!) of darkness caused by the aboleth at the destruction of Azlant: it took thousands of years for civilisation to recover AFTER the effects of that multi-impact dissipitated...

Also, the 'impact-induced winter' would (as mentioned in passing) result in very low temperatures, which would have a negative effect on Yderssius's serpentfolk armies on Golarion's surface, at least (assuming they are affected like actual cold-blooded creatures). It would, however, have a positive effect on Irrisen's plans of conquest - perhaps even giving Elvanna's forces the edge needed to tip the scales against Thassilon 2.0: It wouldn't lead to Irrisen's victory over the Runelords, but Thassilon 2.0 may very well be much less extensive than shown on your map (if Varisia is already gripped in a catastrophe-induced winter, then the effects brought in by Elvanna would only make it worse for the living subjugated under the 3 Runelords, but better for Elvanna's forces instead). At least until the impact-induced winter cleared up.

But hey, this is a setting where magic comes into play, so who really knows. <shrug>

Spoiler:

Still an awesome thought exercise going on here! And I'm by no means dissing Alleran's ideas: He's actually one of the few that is taking the impact into consideration! Instead of just going all "Lovecroftian horrors beat everything, yo"... ;p

This was fun! ^^

Carry on!

--C.

[Alleran]

Comments on my (terrible) map, hooray! I'll be splitting this up into sections, in order to respond to as much as I can.

Quote:

Hmm... If that big red dot on the map is the size of the crater that results from SD, then what happens to all the surrounding nations is VASTLY underestimated!

The end of Second Darkness mentions that while the devastation caused doesn't meet the scale of Earthfall (doesn't even approach it, in fact), it does wipe out Kyonin and many of the neighbouring nations. The darkness from everything hurled into the sky blots out the sun for months and turns Kyonin into a massive crater, but the event is explicitly called out as not being enough to truly end the world. So we have an odd situation (I assume, not being an expert on asteroid impacts) where Kyonin (I basically drew the big red blot as the size of the crater, more or less matching it to Kyonin's forest border) is annihilated, but it doesn't wipe out Avistan/the Inner Sea region.

Earthfall created the Inner Sea, among other things. The SD asteroid is small by comparison.

Quote:

(It could be argued that all of the above effects would hinder any invasion force - even that of demons [whom one'd thin would be fine with it, overall, if the descriptions of the Abyss are to be believed...]. However, the economies of the surviving nations, at the very least, would be in tatters [Lake Encarthan is a major trade hub for all of the nations surrounding it], which would greatly hobble any effort to organise a defensive or conquering army. Surely?)

Quite possible, I suppose. I did mention, I think, that I was leaving Lake Encarthan more or less intact. If the asteroid hits hard enough to take it out as well, then things may change slightly.

If the Confederacy isn't formed, then Tar-Baphon's territory will rapidly expand. He'll be virtually unopposed in the area, and will as a result also become the major bulwark against the Worldwound demons all through the area (no naval fleet battles against demons on the lake now, since there'd be no lake). Now, this doesn't necessarily mean that he'll have actual "civilisation" within that area - for a given value of the word - but he will at least nominally control it.

This also means that the only real invasion routes for demons that don't involve charging through an undead horde are either through Winter or down through the remains of Galt into Taldor, where they'll be met by the Inner Sea Alliance. It removes one of the power blocs from the map.

Quote:

And let's not forget the effect that an impact-induced winter (even if it lasted but a year) would have on the capabilty of most of the nations to hold an effective alliance, let alone defense, against armies that may not be particularly affected by the widespread famine caused by the loss of food crops and livestock (mainly extraplanar, but possibly including undead if the "raw materials" - i.e. corpses - weren't vaporised during the impact).

The winter would slow the ability of the Inner Sea Alliance to form and gather against the encroaching Worldwound, yes. Of course, it wouldn't bother Elvanna or Tar-Baphon (or Xin, who uses a clockwork army), which might focus the demonic efforts along a specific route. Most of Galt could be lost, depending, but I think the Alliance would survive (if just to give PCs a place to come from!).

Quote:

A year without the sun can cause havoc on ecosystems that rely on it.

Called out in the SD text about failure and the impact - it triggers mass death in plant and animal life across Golarion.

Quote:

Also, the 'impact-induced winter' would (as mentioned in passing) result in very low temperatures, which would have a negative effect on Yderssius's serpentfolk armies on Golarion's surface, at least (assuming they are affected like actual cold-blooded creatures).

Honestly haven't really looked at Garund yet.

Quote:

It wouldn't lead to Irrisen's victory over the Runelords, but Thassilon 2.0 may very well be much less extensive than shown on your map (if Varisia is already gripped in a catastrophe-induced winter, then the effects brought in by Elvanna would only make it worse for the living subjugated under the 3 Runelords, but better for Elvanna's forces instead).

My assumption is that Thassilon 2.0's mortals wouldn't really be the primary fighting force - instead, it'll be Xin's clockwork army, and they aren't as bothered by the winter. I am assuming, of course, that Thassilon 2.0 can, with Alderpash and Karzoug added to the mix, put together the Oliphaunt ritual, which gives them an ace in the hole against Elvanna (if it destroyed an army from Azlant, it could do the same to her).

Yes, it's assumption. Still, the "After the Campaign" text in RotRL mentions the Oliphaunt, and Alderpash does have at least some knowledge of it, so it's not out of the question (and I like the image, so I will admit to some bias...).

Additionally to all this, as was mentioned in another thread just recently (and which I'd forgotten, not including it in the thought exercise), Sorshen "lives" - if that means, as I think it might, that she is already awake, then Thassilon 2.0 gains a fully Mythic Tier 10 spellcaster theoretically capable of slugging it out with the Tyrant or Areelu. It won't turn the tide, entirely, but Sorshen would almost certainly be a powerful balancing factor. It would also send Thassilon 2.0 spiraling back down into the Evil side of the spectrum rather than what it might be (evil but not entirely so, depending on Alderpash and Xin against Karzoug), and I foresee Sorshen basically taking complete control. Alderpash and Karzoug are non-factors against her, and while Xin might be strong with the Sihedron he just isn't in Sorshen's league.

[GM_Solspiral]

Before I noticed this post I was considering doing a campaign based on both WotR and RoW failing. The world-wound suddenly split open while the rest of the world starts to go cold.

[Dreaming Psion]

Man, this is turning into a bazillion BBEG pile up. I'm lovin' it! I'm thinkinb Golarion would become like Rifts Earth, with all these regional points of chaos that are in the throes of chaos as BBEG squabbles with BBEG over various pieces of the pie that is the Inner Seas region.

On Garund, I think we'd have Ysderius most immediately come into conflict with the reborn Sky Pharoah Hakotep. Since Mummy's Mask seems to occur in the chronology a bit later than Serpent's Skull, Ysderius may have more time to get his act in order. Since the waking serpent people more or less unquestioningly follow him, I can see him overtaking a northern Garund in conflict as Hakotep's rise throws the region into chaos. OTOH, the threat of a rising dead god may make it easier for the Sky Pharoah and his sky pyramids to achieve legitimacy as a counter to an even worse threat, thus enabling him to solidify his leadership and power much easier than he would otherwise. Hakotep is relatively benign compared to the other AP big bads. With his sky pyramids, Hakotep would have a mobility advantage over the serpents.

[Tangent101]

Actually, given the anti-scrying magics on the Pyramids, their weapons capabilities, and the use of Shory technomagic, Hakotep would even have an advantage over the Worldwound Demons. The only real advantage of the Demons is the fact the world itself slowly crumbles into the Abyss. And if Hakotep finds a way to halt that, then he's going to prevail over just about every opposing group, with the possible exception of the Thassilonians.

[Peter Stewart]

Some interesting stuff here. I'd been playing with a similar concept in which I'd cast old PCs as villains in a world where most of the APs went bad, and I thought I'd add a few thoughts.

Cheliax is likely to be a mess. Ileosa Arabasti is called out at the end of Curse of the Crimson Throne as desiring to carve her kingdom out of it, and it's likely that she spawns a civil war. I don't know that anyone in Cheliax can go at her directly (especially after the Everdawn Pool ritual), and I suspect her Grey Maidens (or at least the next generation) are likely to present a problem to Hell Knights. She's also insane enough not to care that the world is going to pieces, and I can totally see her waging a civil war while the demons look on and gloat.

Without Cheliax I have trouble seeing the rest of the Inner Sea Alliance surviving against the demons, especially since they present what is effectively the path of least resistance to the demons (I suspect that the Whispering Tyrant, Irrisen, and others present a much larger threat than Taldor for instance).

As some have pointed out, Sorshen rises as a result of Crimson Throne, which puts another power player on the board. I'm not sure how she's being cast as a Wizard20/Archmage10 (not that I disagree), but whether or not she sides with the other Runelords she's a big piece on the board.

I'd also be against assigning value to people based on published stats - especially comparing pre-mythic AP bosses to post mythic AP bosses. I'm looking mostly at Karzoug (and Xin) vs. Sorshen. In life there may have been a gap between some, but I don't think it's a full 10 mythic tiers. If I were to rebuild them both in continuity with mythic other beings I'd probably make Karzoug a mythic archmage. Just a thought though.

I'm also of the opinion that Tar-Baphon's stats don't really match his deeds, even though they were built mythic, for a variety of reasons, but that's another bag of goats.

[Graeme Lewis]

...And now I'm waiting for Iron Gods to come out, so that we can see what would happen if the Worldwound exploded at the same time as... well... whatever ends Iron Gods happens. Because it looks like the Technic League aren't going to be in control if the PCs fail in book 6, based on the placeholder product description for Palace of Fallen Stars. Which means they won't be running around the Silver Mount anytime soon.

And the new masters of the Silver Mount might be more capable at keeping demons from wrecking their merde than the Technic League.

[Neongelion]

Graeme Lewis wrote:

...And now I'm waiting for Iron Gods to come out, so that we can see what would happen if the Worldwound exploded at the same time as... well... whatever ends Iron Gods happens. Because it looks like the Technic League aren't going to be in control if the PCs fail in book 6, based on the placeholder product description for Palace of Fallen Stars. Which means they won't be running around the Silver Mount anytime soon.

And the new masters of the Silver Mount might be more capable at keeping demons from wrecking their merde than the Technic League.

The ultimate nightmare of Numeria naysayers*; robots actually leave Numeria and invade the neighboring lands! Rocket launcher-wielding human slaves shooting vampires in Ustalav! Robots running amok in the River Kingdoms! Plasma cannons mowing down Razmir cultists! Flying robots raining down hellfire on Brevoy's Sword Lords! MORE robots outfitted with cold iron blades defending against the demon hordes of the Worldwound!

Of course, I imagine the Worldwound would eventually overtake Numeria, but a) the Iron Gods, whatever their motives, are likely way more coherent and intelligent enough to recognize the threat of the demons and b) the lovely tears of fantasy traditionalists* will re-power the Silver Mount and allow the Iron Gods to flee doomed Golarion!

*t'was a jest please don't stab me

[MMCJawa]

The Technic League got their butts handed to them by the demon armies in the Wrath of the Righteous "what goes wrong" section. But that is because the Technic League doesn't really have a clue of what it's doing. I presume the Iron Gods will be completely cognizant of how advanced technology works, and will be more than capable of putting up a good defense.

Or they could just say screw it, repair their spaceship, and get the hell off Golarion and leave it to the demons/Tar Baphon/whatever else.

[captain yesterday]

Iron Gods Against The WorldWound now THATS a Movie!

[Neongelion]

captain yesterday wrote:

Iron Gods Against The WorldWound now THATS a Movie!

Armies of machines and cyborgs vs. hordes of demons who will inevitably utilize technology of their own and become cyberdemons?

*heavy breathing*

MMCJawa wrote:

The Technic League got their butts handed to them by the demon armies in the Wrath of the Righteous "what goes wrong" section. But that is because the Technic League doesn't really have a clue of what it's doing. I presume the Iron Gods will be completely cognizant of how advanced technology works, and will be more than capable of putting up a good defense.

Or they could just say screw it, repair their spaceship, and get the hell off Golarion and leave it to the demons/Tar Baphon/whatever else.

Assuming the end goal of the Iron Gods is to become true deities, I can definitely see them putting up a very good defense---and maybe an offense---against the Worldwound demons. Maybe not stop them---even machine demigods won't do much against a demon lord---but maybe become one of the few "safe" havens for people as long as they abide by the rigid, draconic laws of new Numeria that makes even Cheliax squirm uncomfortably.

[Andrea1]

Just get Serious Sam,BJ Blackowiz,Duke Nukem and the DOOM marine in there and we have ourselves a movie!

[lucky7]

The question is, how long until someone gets a hand on the Oliphaunt of Jandelay. My bets bet is on Karzoug, as he has access to the Spindlehorn and saw it in action back in the day. For those who don't know what the Oliphaunt is, it's CR is 30. This should give him the ability to make a push(where I don't know), and then have massive storms when the Oliphaunt leaves.

[Peter Stewart]

Peter Stewart wrote:

I'd also be against assigning value to people based on published stats - especially comparing pre-mythic AP bosses to post mythic AP bosses. I'm looking mostly at Karzoug (and Xin) vs. Sorshen. In life there may have been a gap between some, but I don't think it's a full 10 mythic tiers. If I were to rebuild them both in continuity with mythic other beings I'd probably make Karzoug a mythic archmage. Just a thought though.

Actually, having done some homework, I'm going to push back against myself here and say that while I don't know that all pre and post mythic stats mesh together perfectly, Karzoug apparently is not mythic (or would not bee rebuilt that way).

I still think the Whispering Tyrant's stats are terrible though.

[magnuskn]

All those scenarios assume that the gods of the setting will just go "Meh, divine rules prevent me from intervening. Too bad, worshippers!" on all of those catastrophes. I find that unlikely. At some time, even most of the evil gods should have had enough, after all what use is a world if its worshippers have all been eaten/turned into undead/etc.? Yeah, yeah, "if we make a move, then all the others move, too", but there have been pan-alignment alliances in the past, for example when they did a team-up against Rovagug.

[AsmodeusUltima]

I find thought exercises like this absolutely fascinating. I have not read many of the newer APs, so I cannot really comment on much post-Kingmaker, and I know that the main point of the thread is to address specifically threats from the APs themselves, but I found myself wondering about powers that have not (yet) been BBEGs. Specifically, with all of this hitting the proverbial fan, I wonder what the incredibly vast Padishah Empire would be up to in the east, and also what Golarian's original (not counting Rovagug) BBEGs, the aboleths, would be scheming down below. (Side note, I read that there were hints that the AP after Giant Slayers will tie in with Golarian's history, which makes me wonder if we finally get to see a new diabolical aboleth plot in the works...)

Also, I think that if any of the big Lovecraftian horrors were unleashed, that would be the cue for magnuskn's theory about the gods themselves saying, "Screw it, time to make sure we still have some worshippers left," and start taking an active hand. Which would be the perfect time, amongst all this destruction, for the Rough Beast to start breaking free from its ancient prison... 3:D

[Tangent101]

No, Karzoug is not Mythic. That said, I've revamped my campaign so that Karzoug is using the souls of greedy people to help achieve Godhood, and will have five Mythic Tiers when the players encounter him - unless they disrupt the "weak spots" with Dominant Weapons. For each one they succeed in disrupting, he'll be potentially down by one Mythic Tier instead of suffering a level drain.

[lucky7]

Good idea, but make sure you communicate that to them.

[Lord Snow]

magnuskn wrote:

All those scenarios assume that the gods of the setting will just go "Meh, divine rules prevent me from intervening. Too bad, worshippers!" on all of those catastrophes. I find that unlikely. At some time, even most of the evil gods should have had enough, after all what use is a world if its worshippers have all been eaten/turned into undead/etc.? Yeah, yeah, "if we make a move, then all the others move, too", but there have been pan-alignment alliances in the past, for example when they did a team-up against Rovagug.

For the Golarion campaign setting to be interesting there has to be some mechanism to prevent literal dues ex machinas like you describe from happening. It does really matter which explanation you use, so long as you use something. If every evil villain who comes up with a plan to do something nasty needs to first make sure the gods themselves wouldn't be able to stop him, stories will get rather deranged quite quickly.

[Tangent101]

lucky7 wrote:

Good idea, but make sure you communicate that to them.

Why? Do other GMs tell their players "the Dominant weapons can cause level drains to Karzoug"? I'd think they'd consider hurting Karzoug in some fashion before the final battle to be a good thing, even if they don't know the mechanics behind it.

[Tacticslion]

Why would they ever do that, though? I think lucky7's point is twofold (or at least my hesitation that shares similar wording is):

1) that if they know nothing of his plans or abilities (and as someone who's not played RotR before, I'm not entirely sure what you mean, either) there's no reason to go after his "weak points" (whatever those are) and hence it's a useless mechanic,

and

2) if he doesn't receive negative levels (like normal, it seems?) and he potentially has mythic tiers, you're purposefully increasing the difficulty beyond the way it was written, and it might be a powerfully unpleasant surprise for your players, who are used to <this level of difficulty> to suddenly come up against <this level of difficulty>, which can make them very frustrated.

Basically, regardless of what you tell them, make sure they have reason to investigate, and are aware - as players, not as characters - that there is reason to go do stuff instead of avoiding all of that... unless your group doesn't like to play that way, in which case, nevermind. But we can only advise based on our own experiences/perceptions. :)

EDIT: Key word, I think, is "communicate" not "tell" - he's not saying, "tell them this" he's saying "make sure they get the idea".

[Peter Stewart]

Lord Snow wrote:

magnuskn wrote:

All those scenarios assume that the gods of the setting will just go "Meh, divine rules prevent me from intervening. Too bad, worshippers!" on all of those catastrophes. I find that unlikely. At some time, even most of the evil gods should have had enough, after all what use is a world if its worshippers have all been eaten/turned into undead/etc.? Yeah, yeah, "if we make a move, then all the others move, too", but there have been pan-alignment alliances in the past, for example when they did a team-up against Rovagug.

For the Golarion campaign setting to be interesting there has to be some mechanism to prevent literal dues ex machinas like you describe from happening. It does really matter which explanation you use, so long as you use something. If every evil villain who comes up with a plan to do something nasty needs to first make sure the gods themselves wouldn't be able to stop him, stories will get rather deranged quite quickly.

I regard divine politics as sort of like the Cold War. They can nudge things, they can arm and provide advice to those that fight for them, but the moment one jumps into the fray directly everyone knows the entire thing will spiral into Armageddon. As a result generally speaking both the good and evil gods just sort of sit on the sidelines rather than wreck the world.

[ulgulanoth]

hm, I wonder if through PFS scenarios or some of the modules in the module line, if they also failed if any additional doom would be added to the world or if it wouldn't have much impact at all?

[Tangent101]

@Tacticslion - They already have two Mythic Tiers (they earned their second one killing Black Magga atop the dam in three rounds of combat; admittedly she was weakened already (maybe 70 or 80 HPs down?) fighting an ogre fighter and 16 ordinary ogres but I figure it's still a Mythic encounter. (They got lucky with spells penetrating her damage reduction). By the time they reach Karzoug they will have a 3rd Tier (and he'll likely be the final trial to reach Tier 4). So I don't consider it too over the top. The group is already quite powerful (though they are losing their barbarian - the player dropped out as she wasn't enjoying the game as much and had trouble getting into the right mindset for Lucian. She's staying in my other game, fortunately.)

So I figure four 17th level characters with 3 Tiers should be a threat to Karzoug, even if he has 4 or 5 tiers left (and in all likelihood will have lost some of those tiers). (There's a cleric with one level of bard, an Irrisen Sorceress with an ice theme going, an Eldritch Knight, and the NPC Arcane Trickster who's gone into Swashbuckler to help make up for the lack of a barbarian killing machine. Though without the killing machine I can tone down the encounters - seems a two-handed weapon combined with a 21 strength before rage, power attack, and a belt of strength can wipe the floor with most encounters. Though Magga proved difficult for him to hit after two levels of energy drain....)