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No I got it, getting genies to grant unlimited wishes at 11 level or so= totally doable.
Finding a merchant in Absalom with +4 items = Impossible.
Logic is flawless. I agree 100% Kudos to you!
I don't know anything about Absalom. I'm talking about Metropolises as defined in the Core Rulebook and the core rules on purchasing magic items in a standard game.
Of course, I've said that already, but no one ever hears.
No we get it. It is easier to kidnap a being from another plane and get them to grant you unlimited wishes at little to no risk (or in the new wrinkle you added, pay someone to do it for you) than it is to find a weapon with a modifier greater than +3
Perfectly reasonable.
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Kirthfinder gives the monk full bab, makes monk Ki-powers a point-based spell-casting system, and also adds a sutra system that basically act as monk talents. It's an elegant alternate monk and seems to fill it's range of class archetypes very well.Also, did you make your perception check TOZ. I never saw if you saw.Clearly I did not, especially with the +20 bonus to Stealth when invisibility was cast on it. :)Why would the people of two continents be invisibly shaking their fists at you? That is just crazy talk.
On topic, Kirthfinder monk was full BaB as the main fix? I don't remember and I am to lazy to look.
Kirth is a good man. I wish he would publish, I might be able to get people to play it if it was an actual book.
Still doesn't make it unfair though unless no one else is getting them. But that's not the case. And it certainly doesn't inflate the power of the powerful. I posted a CR 20 encounter a while back. You've seen it Wraithstrike. High level enemies and encounters are disgusting. Inherent modifiers aren't going to save you, but they can help. And the more MAD you are, the more they help. Inherent modifiers are good for monks, not unfair to them.I think the inherent bonuses are that high(priced) in order to slow down the stacking of ability points, and since they are the last 5 points you get, players will pay to get them.
It is an issue of supply and demand.
It is just like how food items at the movies, and airports are overpriced. They know people will pay the price due to the situation.
It might save you by helping. I am not saying it is an auto-win however. I think it would be silly to say you can pay _____ gold(very high amount) or you can just use this 6th level spell. People will almost always take the easier path.
PS:It might be a 7th level spell, but still. Not only that, but the wish spell cost more money so there is no reason to even buy the tomes.
There are many paths to a destination. Some paths are easier traveled. This argument does not concern me unless it is actually mechanically disruptive. It is my experience that it is not. If we want to make sure everything is equal on all terms and that no method of anything is more convenient or possible than another, then we are going to be modding literally everything in the game from classes to equipment to items, and so forth.
Even Paizo publishes lots of stuff that are frankly just out right better than other options. Sometimes to the extent that it bugs me. A continual flame torch is in the core rulebook and costs more than 100 gp. There's a wondrous item in the Advanced Player's Guide that has the effects of a continual flame constantly...
My point was partially they intended for you to get the bonus from the magic item, and that just because the rules allow you to bypass another option, that does not mean you should. Many GM's may find it unacceptable. I will put it another way. The rules have some unintended consequences. A lot of RD's attempts are examples of that. While the rules can often be used to stop his attempts I doubt that devs actually think of every possible loophole when writing. Somethings for good or bad are just a result of how the rules are written. This is one of them. Another example was that haste only allowed for held weapons by RAW at one time.
Between the two of us we can probably do a lot of things that would make GM's want to throw CRB's at us, but most people have certain way to play, and the idea of allowing the wishbinding won't get over at most tables.
PS:I don't expect it to be changed because most people don't use it. That is the same logic for the feat that stops sneak attack anyway.
No we get it. It is easier to kidnap a being from another plane and get them to grant you unlimited wishes at little to no risk (or in the new wrinkle you added, pay someone to do it for you) than it is to find a weapon with a modifier greater than +3
Perfectly reasonable.
It is actually. At least based on the rules. And it's greater than +2 weapons actually. +2 weapons, +3 armor, +4 enhancement, +4 resistance, and most mid-range wondrous items since they are generally 16,000 gp and under. Those are the things you can reliably find in a metropolis without much issue.
At high levels you are going to get your goods via either GMs modifying the standard expectations (such as upping the GP limits), crafting them yourself, or through roleplaying / questing (which may include finding someone who can craft them for you and either paying them the appropriate cost and waiting for them to craft it for you, or preforming favors for them as well), or from taking them off enemies (enemies of a high CR can easily afford such weapons, such as the Ghaele Azata who routinely carries a +4 weapon).
Badmouthing other peoples' gameplay styles or calling people ruleslawyers and declaring that they aren't gamers. That's low, rude, and uncalled for. It's not even satirical as much as it is outright insulting.
I posted a CR 20 encounter a while back. You've seen it Wraithstrike.
Where was that I'd like to check it out.
Furthermore the availability of items is another big thing with monks. It's not just that amulets of natural armor are expensive, but it's they are both expensive and extremely niche. What is the likelihood I wonder of randomly finding a +3 amulet of mighty fists?
Ghaeles routinely carry around +3 to +4 to +5 weapons on their persons. Other creatures and NPCs (especially planar enemies) are perfectly capable of sporting equipment like that as well, but how likely do you expect to loot a +2 or +3 amulet off an enemy? It's incredibly niche, only really useful to druids (not even useful to monks) and creatures who battle almost entirely with natural attacks.
Unless your GM specifically plants them for you to acquire (GM fiat loot tailored for you specifically) then that's an issue. If you're more oldschool and like random loot as a GM, or are more like me and are something of a logicalist then you're very, very unlikely to include such treasures on your NPCs purely so the party can find them.
No I got it, getting genies to grant unlimited wishes at 11 level or so= totally doable.
Finding a merchant in Absalom with +4 items = Impossible.
Logic is flawless. I agree 100% Kudos to you!
I don't know anything about Absalom. I'm talking about Metropolises as defined in the Core Rulebook and the core rules on purchasing magic items in a standard game.
Of course, I've said that already, but no one ever hears.
No we get it. It is easier to kidnap a being from another plane and get them to grant you unlimited wishes at little to no risk (or in the new wrinkle you added, pay someone to do it for you) than it is to find a weapon with a modifier greater than +3
Perfectly reasonable.
You can wish for a +2 weapon to become +3 (it is a listed ability of Wish), so just kidnap amnd get unlimited wishes to solve that problem.
Kidnapping extraplanar beings... is there anything it doesn't solve?
Unless your GM specifically plants them for you to acquire (GM fiat loot tailored for you specifically) then that's an issue. If you're more oldschool and like random loot as a GM, or are more like me and are something of a logicalist then you're very, very unlikely to include such treasures on your NPCs purely so the party can find them.
Dragons are most likely to have one (Red Hand of Doom module Dragons do) because they have multiple natural weapons and need to bypass DR magic besides the extra damage boost the amulet provides.
I posted a CR 20 encounter a while back. You've seen it Wraithstrike.Where was that I'd like to check it out.
One moment...!
EDIT: Here you go my friend Grimmy. ^-^I think the biggest detriment to gaining levels past 20th is simply the sheer difficulty vs reward of extremely high level encounters. I posted a CR 20 encounter on the boards a while back. I've spoilered a copy of it below:
CR 20 Demon Horde:A CR 25 encounter would be a truly heinous thing to behold. The difference between a 20th level character and a 25th level character is not so large in the core rules (you've gained about 2-5 points of BAB, some more HP, +2 to good saves, +1 to poor saves, 10-40 more skill points, up to 14th level spells (hooray metamagic), and some new feats feats. Some class abilities have gotten marginally better. But a CR equivalent encounter at this point will likely wipe your party, unless you were fighting really, really dirty.The few individual monsters who can actually take on a party do so because they have the means to prepare, and many of them have powerful summons. For example, solars are excessively powerful and could take on an entire party, but they can also gate more solars, chain-spam summon monster VII to call in celestial Tyrannosaurs to swallow PCs and their minions whole, etc, etc, etc, etc.High level combat is NOT like low level combat. It is a tactical game of dropping nukes and bio-weapons on your enemies while shielding yourself with your star-wars program and hazmat teams. A high level encounter where enemies are using their full resources is a terrifying ordeal. A 20th level party vs a Solar for example is akin to the freakin' Ragnarok on the scale of extreme terror that it would incite in normal humans, as on this scale you are literally hurling meteors at people, calling upon earth shattering storms, and cracking the land and sundering buildings, while the legions of heaven and hell descend or crawl up from their realms to join the battle.
For example...
CR 20 encounter = 307,200 XP
Succubus x 4 (CR 7) = 12,800 XP
Shadow Demon x 4 (CR 7) = 12,800 XP
Nabasu x 6 (CR 8) = 28,800 XP
Glabrezu x 2 (CR 13) = 51,200 XP
Marilith x 1 (CR 17) = 102,400 XP
Vrock x 15 (CR 9) = 96,000 XP
Dretch x 5 (CR 2) = 3,000 XPThis is a demon horde led by a Marilith, who commands their fiendish legions. The entire horde can greater teleport at will, and works together. Most of them can summon more demons as spell-like abilities. Here is a quick rundown of the types of things these demons might do.
Marilith uses telekinesis at range to hurl objects or even other demons at the party, or uses it to grapple an enemy magician. If she sees an opening, she will get in and attack an opponent with her tail and constrict them. Anyone who is constricted must make a DC 25 fortitude save or fall unconscious for 1d8 rounds. At this point she moves on to the next foe, as one of the succubi coup de grace the unconscious character with a caster level 12 vampiric touch, likely killing the victim and buffing the succubus to hell and back with temporary HP. Blade barrier controls the battlefield and makes moving around a pain for those without teleportation.
The Nebasu wander around spamming enervation at targets, especially those in heavy armor, inflicting 1d4 negative levels with each ray that hits, no save. There are 6 of them, so that's a potential for 6-24 negative levels. Every negative level inflicts a -1 penalty to all saving throws. When they are out of rays, they will spam telekinesis to hurl objects at the party, or force DC 19 will saves or be hurled about like a rag doll.
The shadow demons seep through the floor and attack anyone who is on land using their blind-fight feat to ignore the miss %, and since they have cover you can't make AoOs against them, and retaliating against them is something of a pain, since you can't ready a full-attack against them. Your best bet is to take to the air. Each shadow demon of course attempts to summon another shadow demon with a 50% success rate, so 4 demons becomes 6 more than likely. They too can also stand back and spam telekinesis.
The succubi screech about the battlefield charm-bombing enemies and taking pot-shots at downed foes with vampiric touch when they're down. Of course, they all attempt to summon Babau demons with a 50% chance, so that adds another 2 acid-coated demons into the mix as cannon fodder. They also will not hesitate to dominate animal companions, mounts, and similar creatures. They're not difficult to kill, but they will generally spread out and distract the party, and can turn ethereal at-will, allowing them very good tactics. If desired, they can fly around and drop nets on the party to entangle them, as they can comfortably carry plenty of them and still greater teleport around the field.
The vrocks all begin a dance of ruin, spreading out into groups of 4 vrocks for maximum effectiveness. Every 3rd round, each group unleashes a 20d6 blast of lightning in a 100 ft. radius, which all of the demons are immune to. So if you don't break up or crowd control the vrocks, you will be eating up to 4 instances of 20d6 electricity damage, which is an average of 280 damage anywhere the radius's overlap. Alternatively, they can keep flying around the party screeching hellishly, forcing DC 21 saves vs stun for 1 round. Becoming stunned can easily mean death in this battle, and you can get hit by up to 15 of these at once, making saving a harry business. That's not counting the auto-damaging spores they can shake every 3 rounds.
The Glabrezu play hell with the party's counters. They possess at-will mirror image, making taking them out difficult, and they can function as spotters for the team, utilizing their constant true-seeing ability. Each can cast power word stun to screw over any foe with 150 HP or less. All can cast reverse gravity and dispel magic, and won't hesitate to shut down the magic items of the party, since a CL 16 dispel magic can shut down the vast majority of magic items easily. Finally they can drop unholy blight every round without fail, dealing 8d8 damage to all good creatures in an area and forcing saves vs nausea. If pushed into combat, they have a 15 ft. reach and decent natural attacks.
Dretch simply skulk about the battlefield dropping stinking clouds into the fray. All the demons are immune to the cloud, but it forces a 5% chance per round to become nauseated for 1d4 rounds, potentially causing some PCs to lose several rounds worth of actions. They also use it because the 20% concealment it provides to people inside the cloud completely negates sneak attack, and thus ruins any chance a rogue has to sneak attack their bosses. With five of them, they should also be able to summon an additional dretch, allowing up to 5-6 stinking clouds throughout the battle.
All of the above is assuming, of course, that none of them are using any of their treasures themselves (such as the marilith using any superior weapons, or clad in armor, or any of them wearing rings or cloaks or anything cool like that, which may indeed be part of their treasure and thus added to their statblock by the GM).
You can wish for a +2 weapon to become +3 (it is a listed ability of Wish), so just kidnap amnd get unlimited wishes to solve that problem.
Could you point that out? I don't see it in Pathfinder Wish at all.
Kidnapping extraplanar beings... is there anything it doesn't solve?
Imps can even tell you why kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch.
Dragons are most likely to have one (Red Hand of Doom module Dragons do) because they have multiple natural weapons and need to bypass DR magic besides the extra damage boost the amulet provides.
Unless your GM specifically plants them for you to acquire (GM fiat loot tailored for you specifically) then that's an issue. If you're more oldschool and like random loot as a GM, or are more like me and are something of a logicalist then you're very, very unlikely to include such treasures on your NPCs purely so the party can find them.
Dragons are one of the creatures I would expect to have and carry one (maybe). But you'd need to encounter a dragon of CR 15 dragon for it to afford a +3 amulet in its treasure value (triple treasure for a CR 15 = enough to cover the 45,000 gp).
EDIT: But I tell you Starbuck_II most honestly, if you had been present for the slanderous threading that came up concerning monsters who actually have and use their treasures (especially treasures benefiting them in any way) I'd scarcely imagine you'd want to open that can of worms again. (>.<)
Yes I was hoping it was demons <evil grin>
Yes I was hoping it was demons <evil grin>
Well I'm glad you enjoyed it. (^-^)
Honestly, % chance of friendly casualties increases enormously as levels rise. Makes for great games though. :P
EDIT: And just for the record, my tabletop group (my online group doesn't 'cause a lot of people have an aversion to it) plays with standard 15 point buy. The CR 20 demon encounter is the sort of thing that I would happily run for my tabletop players with the certainty that if they worked together well they could certainly overcome it. At 20th level it wouldn't be so bad, but I'm pretty sure they could probably take it as early as 17th or maybe 16th level.
PS:I don't expect it to be changed because most people don't use it. That is the same logic for the feat that stops sneak attack anyway.
10 gp for a smokestick stops sneak attacks. It doesn't get much cheaper than that.
You can wish for a +2 weapon to become +3 (it is a listed ability of Wish), so just kidnap amnd get unlimited wishes to solve that problem.Could you point that out? I don't see it in Pathfinder Wish at all.
What? They removed that ability from safe options?
Well, wish can still do it then but Efreeti has chance to be killed or items might be cursed or something.
PS:I don't expect it to be changed because most people don't use it. That is the same logic for the feat that stops sneak attack anyway.10 gp for a smokestick stops sneak attacks. It doesn't get much cheaper than that.
That takes time to deploy, and gust of wind can get rid of that. That feat is something different, but the feat is not very popular so it is not an issue. :)
It's a stupid feat but come on, PC's aren't going to take it (which is why it's stupid), and if a GM wanted to gimp the Rogue for some reason there are much harder counters than that (sufficiently-leveled characters with Improved Uncanny Dodge, Elementals, Oozes, Incorporeals, etc).
I mean, sure, the feat's badly designed, but people were literally saying they would refuse to play at any table where it wasn't explicitly banned, which is absurd.
Genies exist in the game world because there are plenty of stories where the GM might want to introduce them to the plot. That's very different from having them exist as a "Hey, any party with an arcane caster, gain ridiculous bonuses and become able to cast 8th-level spells regularly at 11th level" button.
There's a fine line between "creativity" and "game mechanics abuse". You come up with the idea of summoning a genie once to help with a specific situation? Fine. Your go-to move in every campaign is to summon genies and turn everyone's 15-point buy into a 100-point buy because you read on the internet once that it was a good idea? Not going to fly.
Yes, because casting a Magic Circle Against X directed inward, then casting it again, directed outward for yourself, then casting a 10 minute long ritual spell to summon a creature (that has more than one potential chance to fail), then immediately casting a Dimensional Anchor so said summoned creature can't just leave 'cuz it wants to, and then bargaining through roleplay with said creature to convince it to help you... [sarcasm]Yes, that's definitely going to get you 8th level spells whenever you want them."[/sarcasm]
C'mon, don't be ridiculous. This thing would only happen during downtime, or specifically when a party makes time for it.
Besides, here's what the book has to say about summoning Elementals:
In general, one summons an elemental for brute work and combat, and a genie for magical power or ancient wisdom, and would thus use summon monster and planar binding for those tasks, respectively.
So if Planar Binding a Genie to make use of it's magical capabilities is somehow playing wrong, then I guess the guys who make the game have been doing it wrong all along.
You may not like it for your games, but it's FAR from a "wrong" strategy.
Besides, this is classic literature! "Find a genie in a lap, rub the lamp, get 3 wishes." Except in this game, you don't have to find a magic lamp; You can bring the genie straight to you.
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Genies exist in the game world because there are plenty of stories where the GM might want to introduce them to the plot. That's very different from having them exist as a "Hey, any party with an arcane caster, gain ridiculous bonuses and become able to cast 8th-level spells regularly at 11th level" button.
There's a fine line between "creativity" and "game mechanics abuse". You come up with the idea of summoning a genie once to help with a specific situation? Fine. Your go-to move in every campaign is to summon genies and turn everyone's 15-point buy into a 100-point buy because you read on the internet once that it was a good idea? Not going to fly.
Yes, because casting a Magic Circle Against X directed inward, then casting it again, directed outward for yourself, then casting a 10 minute long ritual spell to summon a creature (that has more than one potential chance to fail), then immediately casting a Dimensional Anchor so said summoned creature can't just leave 'cuz it wants to, and then bargaining through roleplay with said creature to convince it to help you... [sarcasm]Yes, that's definitely going to get you 8th level spells whenever you want them."[/sarcasm]
C'mon, don't be ridiculous. This thing would only happen during downtime, or specifically when a party makes time for it.
Besides, here's what the book has to say about summoning Elementals:
In general, one summons an elemental for brute work and combat, and a genie for magical power or ancient wisdom, and would thus use summon monster and planar binding for those tasks, respectively.So if Planar Binding a Genie to make use of it's magical capabilities is somehow playing wrong, then I guess...
This reminds me of the beginning of Baldur's Gate II. During the first dungeon you can venture into a pocket plane inside of Jon Irenicus' dungeon where you are being held captive (Jon is an extremely powerful and evil wizard). Inside this place you find a bottle/lamp that has a genie that Jon has bound to the lamp ('cause Jon is not the sort to make deals, he makes tools) and you can find an flask to release the djinn from the bindings. The djinn gives you a +2 sword which drains life from your enemies on hit as thanks for its freedom, and then warns that the party must escape because the wizard who bound him would torture them for escaping and KILL them for freeing his genie-slave.
Now why would a wizard keep a genie slave? I'll give you three wi-- I mean guesses. :P
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Ditching it does make your armor more valuable by reducing what your AC would be without it, which tramples the "well your armor doesn't really help you all that much" argument.
And really? You all play "Right, we've hit Level 11, time to spend the next month or so binding genies so all of us can have +5 to all of our attributes for what it usually costs to get a slot-using item to give +4 to a single attribute of one person, just like we do in every campaign"? I swear, sometimes I feel like I'm playing a completely different game from everyone else.
The binding genies crap needs to stay out of builds because its not 100% fullproof which has already been proven RAW. Depends entirely on how the DM decides to use the wording.
The better reason to leave it aside is that every party member can get it equally, which makes it a wash.
That takes time to deploy, and gust of wind can get rid of that. That feat is something different, but the feat is not very popular so it is not an issue. :)PS:I don't expect it to be changed because most people don't use it. That is the same logic for the feat that stops sneak attack anyway.10 gp for a smokestick stops sneak attacks. It doesn't get much cheaper than that.
Well, I think lighting a smokestick as an action for 10 rounds of immunity vs sneak attacks is pretty awesome. Especially if you have a quick method of lighting it such as prestidigitation or somesuch. Requiring your opponent to have a 2nd level spell (gust of wind) prepared and then used to overcome a 10 gp item sounds to me like you're doing quite well.
Especially since you could carry a number of them in a bandolier and light them without having to draw them. 10 ft. cloud of smoke centered on you where you stood when you lit it. They're super awesome indoors.
Also it's required by law that I mention this. Nerd law. :P
The better reason to leave it aside is that every party member can get it equally, which makes it a wash.
Well naked monks with it will do better than naked monks without it. It's more helpful to MAD classes than not, and Monk is probably the most MAD class in the game. O.o
But it's alright. I've already posted a core build and a non-core build, and already put up the math for the AC and such of my monk without the inherent mods and shown that it is the same, and that without the inherent mods the unarmored monk version won't hit even near the same armor class, which also reduces their ability to deal damage (because the build relies on getting enemies to attack them, missing, then punishing them; and used combat maneuvers specifically under the "if you take an AoO against me I'ma break your arm, but if you let me keep this up I'm going to take/break your sword or trip/grapple you down)".
It's kind of ironic because I'm one of the more vocal folks on the "I think monks need help and can't reasonably keep up with their other peers in the core rulebook" side of things, and yet the stuff people have complained about me putting up on my builds are explicitly things that are currently legal and favor the monk more than any other class (gauntlets by RAW being unarmed strikes means the monk can get silver, cold iron, or adamantine unarmed strikes, reasonable weapon enhancements similar to a dual-wielder in expense, core legal ways of reducing the pain they feel from their MAD, and so forth).
Perhaps what I should be doing is instead building non-monks to compare to the builds of others. Then we can compare said monks vs other potential members of the party. Some already say the monk is a 5th wheel, but I think he's more like 12th wheel.
People that think Monks are fine need to post builds of their "fine Monks."
People who think Monks need help need to post builds of other classes to compare to the "fine Monks."
And then...
People that think Monks are fine need to post builds of their "fine Monks."
People who think Monks need help need to post builds of other classes to compare to the "fine Monks."
And then...
Hmm, do you have a suggestion that doesn't end in a brutal knockdown resulting in spinal ripping at various points during the discussion? :P
Well, this is the internet...
So no. :P
Well, this is the internet...
So no. :P
This is personally why I think building competitions are pretty stupid. What people can and cannot do, or would or would not do, varies from table to table. We can't even agree on RAW around here. Most of the monk builds presented (mine, Shallowsoul's, Brian in a Jar's, and so forth) have been posted with different ideas of what is good in mind, different ideas of what is reasonable, and quite frankly different ideas of what would function in an actual game; and in the end it always solves nothing and just ends up with us all looking rather stupid as a circle of stupid looking people. We were better off actually discussing by a class to class comparison of things with Dabbler.
Always when builds come up as to whether or not a "class" has problems, then we have to get into races, obscure splat material, and so forth until it begins to muddy the water pretty bad. Most other classes in the book can be entirely playable and awesome with most any of the core races. You want a halfling wizard? Can do. Gnome barbarian? Check. Need a Dwarf Rogue? Absolutely. Half-Orc Cleric? Yes sir, can do. Elven Paladin? We got those too. If we wanted to get a pretty fair idea, then either having everyone be human or remove all racial abilities and/or feats and traits from the equation would help to differentiate how much of something was the "class" contributing to versus racial modifications (and doing 20 point buy in this case would be reasonable since it would give us similar statistics to 15 point buy plus racial mods without actually having racial bonuses).
However, with builds, a lot of stuff comes together. We're building characters to push them to the hilt vs the averaged statistics of monsters with no real statistics in the monster creation chapter (a practice I think is pretty flawed given that actual bestiary monsters are extraordinarily tougher than in practice) with the whole package. In almost all cases, we ultimately find them all lacking somehow. For example, some were angry because I chose to go armor on my monk instead of having more haste-less speed and evasion, meanwhile I look at other monk builds and don't expect them to make it to 5th level without the GM coddling them. In the end, it solves nothing.
What I think does solve something -- or at least puts us closer to solving something -- is comparing what individual classes can do with the same assortment of ability scores on a level by level basis, with certain specific buffs. Compared from one against the other, as I tried to do when demonstrating in another thread the evidence that -- primarily due to their unreasonable MAD -- that they couldn't compete with a Ranger at 5th level in terms of both offense and AC. Initially the test was run with very neutral considerations. Just ability scores, equivalent enhancement bonuses (for fairness it was assumed both had access to a wizard to cast greater magic weapon for them) and then their raw statistics. From there it was determined how much one had to do to tweak the results to more even (the ranger with no feats on a 15 point buy continually out-did the monk with only a longsword and shield, while to get results closer to the ranger's the monk needed progressively higher and higher point buys and feats to help).
We can analyze these pieces of data, then tip and take from them until we get a good picture then move on. Look at the same at a different level range. After we go through simple things like hit, damage, and armor class, we could try to move onto more ephemeral statistics like usefulness of immunities, party contributions via spells, weighing which classes would be desired for a party and for what reasons, and so forth.
I think that would help us get the big picture far more efficiently, with less bickering (hopefully), and then we could tackle one issue or concern at a time. We would need to stop trying to claw each others' eyes out and work together though. No calling each other names, no implying that other people are less gamers than we are, or are bad, or wrong, or not fun, or insulting each others as players or GMs or insulting our players or GMs. Legitimately work together, as a community that is concerned for the condition of the monk and actually together work on gathering the pieces of mathematical and advisory data as a group.
I would be willing to do that.
If you are judging a monk by his DPR, then you are doing it wrong.
If you think DPR has no bearing on the performance of any combat class, you don't understand the game.
No, fighters are. Monk's are passable at it, fighters are way better:Monks are pure battlefield control.
Played right, they are stunning,tripping,disarming, grappeling and sunder machines.
- Access to all the feats as bonus feats, not just the starters
- Access to weapons that enhance maneuvers, such as reach tripping weapons
- Ability to add their Weapon Training bonus to their CMB
- Earlier access to feats that allow them to lock down areas such as Combat Patrol
Then there are the issues with relying on maneuvers, such as that larger creatures have large bonuses to CMD, and many creatures are immune to large numbers of maneuvers - flying creatures to trip, oozes to grapple, and so on.
They can lock down a spellcaster at melee range,
Any combat class can do this. Your point was?
Disarm and de-armor a melee tank and deflect most attacks from a ranged specialist.
This assume the melee tank doesn't kill you first, and that he has a CMD you can beat easily enough to have a hope in hell. And that he is humanoid and medium-sized.
Last I checked, Deflect Arrows acts on one arrow per turn. One = most at first level, maybe. Above that, pincushion monk.
Barbarian with a 2 handed axe got you down? A monk with improved disarm or improved sunder will either take or break that weapon. Then its flurry of blows time and down goes the barbarian.
Assuming you survive the attack and can beat his CMD again, and that he doesn't have Quickdraw and a spare weapon. My money is on the barbarian.
Spellcaster decimating the party? A grappling monk will shut him down quicker that you can say hammerlock!
This is superior to the ranger turning him into a pincushion or the barbarian splitting his head open with that big axe how, exactly? All of them run into the little problem called "How do you find/reach the spellcaster who is not stupid?"
Monks can Parkour through a dungeon. They practically ignore most terrain effects and can outrun most other characters.
So they can be sole-survivor of the TPK. Whoopee. Most parties would prefer a character that can prevent it in the first place.
They don't win by out DPRing the other guy, they will by bringing his DPR down to their level.
No, he'll just kill them. Maneuvers are too limited, they can't save the monk outside of humanoid fights. Stunning fist doesn't work most of the time because it requires them to hit and do damage. DR shuts them down completely, except in corner cases.
This is assume Stunning Fist never works and Ki has little value.
Neither of which is true or accounted for.
Ciretose, you and I have demonstrated that stunning fist is of rare effectiveness. Ki is useful, but you cannot spend it in every round of every encounter, and Ashiel's build only sacrificed a few points of it, relatively speaking. I'm not saying Ashiel is completely right, but Ashiel did make a point that there is not as much to choose between a monk using non-monk weapons and wearing armour and one not as I think the designers originally intended.
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From the posted builds, an armored monk is comparable to an unarmored monk.
An armored monk is a joke since it's trying to make a vanilla fighter out of the monk. Which, since they give up half the monk class features, whereas the actual fighter class is directly tailored to that exact setup, means they're just a vanilla fighter except worse because they were built off of a clearly unsuitable template.
That certainly seems to imply that unarmored monks are also not as good as fighters (and therefore other classes in general).
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From the posted builds, an armored monk is comparable to an unarmored monk.
An armored monk is a joke since it's trying to make a vanilla fighter out of the monk. Which, since they give up half the monk class features, whereas the actual fighter class is directly tailored to that exact setup, means they're just a vanilla fighter except worse because they were built off of a clearly unsuitable template.
That certainly seems to imply that unarmored monks are also not as good as fighters (and therefore other classes in general).
Exactly the point I was trying to make.
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It's the Strong GM hand issue being needed that strikes me as a problem from a basic game design perspective. It's harder to see if you've been playing the game for a long time, but pretty much every beginner GM I've seen pick up the game has had things go badly off the rails due to player wealth issues, especially if they try to run things from a more simulationist perspective. There's also the whole argument that saying "Its not a problem, a good GM just houserules or ignores all that stuff anyways" is probably not the best place to start from when discussing one of the underlying mechanics of the system that ties into pretty much every other aspect of the game.
The Devs have a choice at the crossroads of powerful abilities.
If they are too restrictive, the close off interesting story options.
If they are too loose they open up exploits.
So it seems they try to empower the GM to make the decision about very powerful open ended spells, so that you can say "This 'could' happen every once in awhile under absolutely ideal circumstances so that it can be a story option in my game."
That doesn't mean they are saying it "would" happen.
The Devs can't close all the loopholes without restricting the options in the game. Much like laws, because other can't use common sense they much restrict all of us at times.
When the discussion drifts from RAI to arguments of what the meaning of the word "is" is, you know you are on the BS train.
Clinton had sexual relations with that woman, and the Devs never intended for you to be able to make an infinate wish machine.
From the posted builds, an armored monk is comparable to an unarmored monk.
An armored monk is a joke since it's trying to make a vanilla fighter out of the monk. Which, since they give up half the monk class features, whereas the actual fighter class is directly tailored to that exact setup, means they're just a vanilla fighter except worse because they were built off of a clearly unsuitable template.
That certainly seems to imply that unarmored monks are also not as good as fighters (and therefore other classes in general).
Depends. For core monk, I agree. For my non-core monk, I'm not so sure. I really like the way the non-core monk functions mechanically, and its play themes. It has quite a few cool tricks, and I'd wager could even irritate the piss out of a fighter. Her AC at 13th level was 38 with Strength prime without buffs. At 13th level, that's pretty darn awesome. Especially since she can ignore 1 incoming melee attack that would have hit her, and 1 incoming ranged attack that would have hit her, and each time an opponent misses her she gets a free attack against them.
She definitely doesn't play like your typical fighter, even if she is wearing armor. Instead, I'd argue that she...plays like a Monk...in armor.
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People that think Monks are fine need to post builds of their "fine Monks."
People who think Monks need help need to post builds of other classes to compare to the "fine Monks."
And then...
Working on it over here.. Or at least a variation of this question with possible "fixes" being tested exactly as you described.
Prefer only people interested in staying on topic post there.
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@Dabbler - The rare effectiveness which will become less rare with a reasonable fix to attack bonus.
If stunning fist can get to even 10% effectiveness (which would only mean reasonable hitting 50% of the time with stunning working 20% of the time), it becomes very relevant. And ki is ki.
When you make any build you have a cost benefit analysis. I personally think you overvalue Dex in monk builds. If you move some of your Dex over to wisdom, you lose very little and gain a lot.
Again, it's not just the inherent bonuses, it's that it makes Wish obsolete as anything other than a combat spell, which has never been its real use.
Multiple wishes as a 6th level spell with no material component cost? No. Not happening.That's bizarre. Wish is most definitely a combat spell. It is the "oh s@!!, emergency eject" button. This is the factual uses of Wish that you can rely on.
Yeah, wish does lots of things. I've read the list. I can see it as a last resort combat spell. OTOH, it's 25K a pop. Even at high levels that's a big chunk of change to be dropping a couple of times a day. On a 19th level build, how much of your WBL is in diamonds?
For anything other than in combat, it's better to take the 10 minutes to summon an efreet and a few more to make the deal. That doesn't require a lot of downtime. Maybe not between fights, but less than resting for the night. And it's free.
Do you really think the 25K cost and it being 3 levels higher are just to make up for it being available in combat?It's available after Raise Dead, but before resurrection, you don't need the body and there's no cost.
If you want my honest opinion of it, it's not worth 25,000 gp in any of its incarnations. That was a seriously harsh nerf to wish on top of its already impressive nerfs. Now miracle is the true king of the hill in terms of actually being the best thing ever, because Miracle you only the expensive material components for very incredible things. The problem was wish had an XP cost of 5,000 in 3.x. 5,000 XP wasn't as big a deal as 25,000 gp, because you could easily make that and more back in a single encounter. However, they used the formula for XP to GP for magic items (that is 1 XP = 5 gp) and changed the XP to GP*5 in Pathfinder. Horrible nerf in fact.
It's actually the biggest reasons that for general purposes I tend to use limited wish far more frequently, and quickened limited wish is exceptionally good. And yes, I do actually track how much GP in diamonds I have at high levels (on PCs and NPCs) because they are a common material component for rezzing and wishes.
So do I think Wish is worth it most of the time or worth its level with that excessive material cost? No, not really. Do I believe that planar binding is stealing wish's cookies? No, not really. The most powerful uses of wish IMHO are in fact the kind of uses that planar binding cannot help you with (like the ability to rewind time or bend reality to suit your whims).
I think I'd personally like to see Wish revised to be a bit more like Miracle which gives you the normal uses of Wish for free, and the more epic uses of it get a high cost. For example, here is the text for miracle which used to be more of the divine version of Wish.
A miracle can do any of the following things.
Duplicate any cleric spell of 8th level or lower.
Duplicate any other spell of 7th level or lower.
Undo the harmful effects of certain spells, such as feeblemind or insanity.
Have any effect whose power level is in line with the above effects.Alternatively, a cleric can make a very powerful request. Casting such a miracle costs the cleric 25,000 gp in powdered diamond because of the powerful divine energies involved. Examples of especially powerful miracles of this sort could include the following:
Swinging the tide of a battle in your favor by raising fallen allies to continue fighting.
Moving you and your allies, with all your and their gear, from one plane to a specific locale through planar barriers with no chance of error.
Protecting a city from an earthquake, volcanic eruption, flood, or other major natural disaster.
Pretty huge actually. All the normal awesome applications of duplicating spells are essentially "free" in this case, while you can also drop 25,000 gp to ruin Sephiroth's plans and throw the Meteor off course.
Also, on a side note concerning it being available pre-resurrection. Well it's arcane magic. Oh boy, I know that might upset some folks, but arcane magic is the bees knees. It has traditionally been stronger and more awesome than divine magic. That's why wizards are puny 1/2 BAB, d6 HD, poor saving throw and poor skill point classes. Their awesomeness comes entirely from their magic. Same with sorcerers to some extent. The divine casters like druids and clerics, they get 9th level spells in 3.x (previously they only got up to 7th I believe) and have 3/4 BAB, better weapon and armor proficiencies, better saving throws, and in cases of druids better skill points, and arguably better pets. On the flip side, they don't get sweet stuff like the planar binding line, most of the great AoEs and CCs, wicked cool stuff like simulacrum, clone, flesh to stone, and so forth.
In fact, throughout 3.x Wish was just the tiniest bit better than Miracle at least by most standards. However, wish got both a nerf in what it was capable of doing AND what the cost to use it.
Honestly, it's not just wish though. Lesser planar binding can fetch you genie that can plane shift you and your party 3/day to any elemental plane, astral plane, or material plane on demand. Lesser planar binding is a 5th level wizard spell. Plane shift is a 5th level cleric or 7th level wizard spell.
Lantern archons can be summoned via Summon Monster and cast continual flame over and over without a material component cost, effectively creating a 100 gp everburning torch every round they are on the material plane with you.
An Imp can cast commune for you, which is normally a cleric-only spell at caster level 12 (6 questions), and it can cast a caster level 12 augury spell.
An Erinyes has constant true seeing and unholy blight at will, along with the ability to summon more fiends to your bidding (unlike with summoned creatures, called creatures CAN use their summoning powers).
A shadow demon has caster level 10 telekinesis at will.
A coatle casts spells as a 9th level sorcerer and has ethereal jaunt at will.
A lillend casts spells and uses bardic music, allowing you to literally call up a bard with a lot of other cool abilities.
A Glabrezu casts the following spells at will at a higher caster level than you do when you get the spell to call it: Constant—true seeing; At will—chaos hammer (DC 19), confusion (DC 19), dispel magic, mirror image, reverse gravity (DC 22), greater teleport (self plus 50 lbs. of objects only), veil (self only), unholy blight.
It can also cast Power Word Stun, an 8th level wizard spell 1/day. It can also grant a wish 1/month to a mortal humanoid.
A nightmare can be called upon by lesser planar binding and can planeshift itself and its rider anywhere you could want to go. Call up a group of them and your entire party can planeshift anywhere.
The list goes on and on. This is the point of planar binding and why only wizards and sorcerers get it. It. Is. Awesome. O.O
@Dabbler - The rare effectiveness which will become less rare with a reasonable fix to attack bonus.
If stunning fist can get to even 10% effectiveness (which would only mean reasonable hitting 50% of the time with stunning working 20% of the time), it becomes very relevant. And ki is ki.
I absolutely agree, that's why my 'fixes' focus on improving hitting, allowing the monk to focus on their wisdom, and bypassing DR.
When you make any build you have a cost benefit analysis. I personally think you overvalue Dex in monk builds. If you move some of your Dex over to wisdom, you lose very little and gain a lot.
Perhaps I do, but to my mind monks should be quick and hard to hit. In my builds I used to focus on Dex as it was one stat I could make do a lot of heavy lifting for my characters. In the builds I posted up recently to illustrate the 'fix', I did what I had originally intended and split the offence/defence better between strength and dexterity. A starting wisdom of 18 is pretty good, after all.
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@Dabbler - The rare effectiveness which will become less rare with a reasonable fix to attack bonus.
If stunning fist can get to even 10% effectiveness (which would only mean reasonable hitting 50% of the time with stunning working 20% of the time), it becomes very relevant. And ki is ki.
I absolutely agree, that's why my 'fixes' focus on improving hitting, allowing the monk to focus on their wisdom, and bypassing DR.
When you make any build you have a cost benefit analysis. I personally think you overvalue Dex in monk builds. If you move some of your Dex over to wisdom, you lose very little and gain a lot.Perhaps I do, but to my mind monks should be quick and hard to hit. In my builds I used to focus on Dex as it was one stat I could make do a lot of heavy lifting for my characters. In the builds I posted up recently to illustrate the 'fix', I did what I had originally intended and split the offence/defence better between strength and dexterity. A starting wisdom of 18 is pretty good, after all.
In the other thread I feel like I am getting pretty close to my goal.
The 9th level save DC is 18 and the attack is +14 against a CR 9 DC of 23 and save of 13.
And that is core only, with only the one fix added, not min/maxing or even really hard core optimizing.
why the monk hate? I don't know because any thread with "monk" in the title is 100's of posts long and I'm too lazy to read through them.
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why the monk hate? I don't know because any thread with "monk" in the title is 100's of posts long and I'm too lazy to read through them.
There is no monk hate, just very frustrated monk love.
why the monk hate? I don't know because any thread with "monk" in the title is 100's of posts long and I'm too lazy to read through them.
Because some people play in very high-powered games with lots and lots of house-rules. Which has lead to a style of play rendering the Core Monk useless. So they either hate it and no one plays them or love it and make a high-powered version that fits there personal game.
Or perhaps in their group no one has played them in a competent manner and thus they "suck" from personal experience.
Otherwise mathematically they need a small boost to attack and have abilities better snyergize. Some people would like to see that small boost happen, while others will never be happy with whatever is published since they run a game with so many house-rules and home brewed rules/classes that their game doesn't even resemble the Core game.
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why the monk hate? I don't know because any thread with "monk" in the title is 100's of posts long and I'm too lazy to read through them.There is no monk hate, just very frustrated monk love.
I think at this point it's monk constipation.
Why are the cestus and brass knuckles still listed as monk weapons if no monk would ever want them? That's my koan for the day.
People that think Monks are fine need to post builds of their "fine Monks."
People who think Monks need help need to post builds of other classes to compare to the "fine Monks."
And then...
I already did in another thread post a barbarian in another monk thread. With that aside if such a monk could be made it would probably take the minds of some of the best posters here. If the class is that hard to optimize then it has issues. Of course some of the better optimizers have already tried, and not succeeded, so that is another notch against the monk.
People claim they have such builds, but always refuse to post them. They can't even say we would cherry pick fights against the build anymore, because the encounters are already in place.
why the monk hate? I don't know because any thread with "monk" in the title is 100's of posts long and I'm too lazy to read through them.There is no monk hate, just very frustrated monk love.I think at this point it's monk constipation.
Why are the cestus and brass knuckles still listed as monk weapons if no monk would ever want them? That's my koan for the day.
I actually did a monk/fighter hybrid using cesti as his weapons. MoMS doesn't lose much going that route, and since I was interested in seeing how the build worked out at higher levels, I statted it up all the way to 20 at various levels just to get an idea of the rough spots.
I get the devs not wanting to give monk unarmed damage to a weapon. I really do. A 2d10/19-20 dual wield able weapon that is light? Little over the top possibly, even if static bonuses are better overall, rolled damage like that would still play a part. The brass knuckles I don't get, because technically, they weren't really any different from gauntlets before they altered the knuckles.
That being said, as much as I like the unarmed theme of the monk, it would be nice to see the ability to, in the core monk (no archetypes needed) have weapons as a viable option. They used to in 1e. Got a damage bonus to certain weapons they used. Limited attacks, but bonus damage. I wouldn't mind seeing that come back in some form.
I fix monks by a simple houserule - handwraps are an item that can be enchanted - they work with monk attacks - cost the same as an adamantium sword + enchantment costs. A bit pricey but lets you deal with DR issues.
Pro: worst thing about the monk is DR issues (IMO) this resolves that problem.
Pro: Monks now have something that can be used for loot that makes them giddy without breaking the character wealth bucket.
Con: unlike a TWF build - you are limited to enchanting one item - where a TWF build can have two different types of enchants (silver/holy + adamantium/bane for instance) and you can pick which weapon you are using when you only can make a single attack (thus allowing a bit more tactical advantage).
Con: unlike weapons that can be dropped or quickdrawn - a monk handrwaps (under this rule) take several rounds to remove and reapply - thus no quick swaps are possible. Same issue as plate mail.
I have no idea why these aren't just made standard equipment - they solve many of the issues that monks have and let them use the signature ability (flurry) without being gimped when they fight DR.
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2d10/19-20 dual wield able weapon that is light
Sure, but I'd rather it be 1d10/19-20 with a +5 to hit.