Why didn't the bbeg save the monk for last?
As is... I think he optimized for PFS or similar challenges; which require less optimization. I enjoy PFS scenarios - as they tend to be varied enough for my monk characters to cope just fine and contribute frequently.** spoiler omitted **...
Because the monk was giving him hell (specifically preventing him from pursuing the feared allies). By the time the initial spells cleared, the premises were empty, save for the monk, the BBEG, and the summons (everybody else being panicked away). And the monk kept the BBEG just-about in-place (positioning, trips, forcing provokes, etc).
From what I read, and my memory may be off, the monk was not hurting the BBEG, but the BBEG could not hurt the monk. At some point he should have realized "this guy is failing to hurt me, and I am losing spells".
Focus fire on his buddies...
I don't think comparing a PC to the monster guidelines is the best idea. If you're comparing CR-equal-to-Class-Level, then you're looking at what should be an average fight against a solo creature for a 4 person group. If the goal is to make an solo NPC monk to fight the party, then yea, sure. But with PCs, that's the wrong metric.
It was not so much a solo situation, but a lot of us like to say monsters will ignore the monk so the monk is not really contributing. If the monk can at least hold the monster's attention he is doing something. When the monk is at the bottom of the totem pole, and he is not affecting combat, then we have issues. I did not include the other party member's actions, but it is assumed that they are there.
I've been looking at a good many creatures with a CR 10 and the Monk is at an average of 50% to hit. AC 21 to 24 is what I've been seeing.My Monk may end up spending a good bit of Ki in combat but he can still do some damage. 2d6+5/2d6+5/2d6+5/2d6+5 spend some Ki and add another 2d6+5.
You can't just look at the 2d6+5 and say I can do damage. Your to hit is way below par. I ran the numbers in a post above. Your monk does 41 DPR against AC 24, assuming haste and ki stacks. Just blowing ki you are only doing 29. With just haste you are at 33. A non-optimized lvl 10 THF is at 90+ which I just eyeballed. I don't think being 1/3 of the gold standard of DPR is anywhere near adequate for any class much less a class with no spell casting.
Now with the rogue, you are assuming you are going to get Sneak Attack every round which may not be the case.
Also, there is nothing wrong with a 50% to hit rate, it's not the best but it's not the worst.
41 DPR is always better than 0 DPR so I'm not sure where you're going. Is there a specific "damage" to "hit point" ratio that should be achieved by each PC?
I get the feeling that people are expecting more from the Monk than what the designers wanted to give. I believe Monks were never ever intended to be a primary damage dealer
I do have to agree with Shallowsoul. Sneak attack has to be setup so you might not see it until round 2 unless you win initiative. Getting past CMD at higher levels is no easy task either unless the rogue is going to take the hit or take several rounds to get setup.
edit:I am assuming higher level builds.
Brain's monk is very similar to the one Ciretose made. The difference is that Brain's monk does more damage, but at the cost of AC meaning he does a more damage than it is wise to take.
The issue of offense or defense(higher AC) is still around.
When the monk is not fighting he is not scout.
So the monk is struggling in many(too many for us to like), not all, fights.
He is not the scout.
He is not the skills guy, or the face.
He is not controlling the battlefield.
Despite what people would have you believe he is not the "anti-caster".
What is he doing, why should he be the 5th pick-->I will put it this way if a group of adventures had to pick the monk or another PC class to tag along, why would they pick the monk?
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What is he doing, why should he be the 5th pick-->I will put it this way if a group of adventures had to pick the monk or another PC class to tag along, why would they pick the monk?
The simplest answer is that they won't. Virtually any other class in the core rulebook could bring more to the party. Virtually any other class in the APG could as well.
a mithril breast plate is 4,200 gold on it's own, and 9,000 for the +3. they could either be acquired seperately or as a package for 13,200. still less than the 16,000 limit.
getting the ifriti to grant you 3 wishes requires the ifriti to be willing. which whether or not you can persuade it is up to the DM. ifriti aren't really too common, and require knowledge of the elemental plane of fire. the knowledge check would be 10+CR or 15+CR dependant on DM discretion. can you reliably make a DC20-DC25 knowledge (the planes) check to know about Ifriti? or is that too much a skill point tax?. this is where dumping intelligence will screw you over. by reliably, i mean at least on a 10+.
a mithril breast plate is 4,200 gold on it's own, and 9,000 for the +3. they could either be acquired seperately or as a package for 13,200. still less than the 16,000 limit.
getting the ifriti to grant you 3 wishes requires the ifriti to be willing. which whether or not you can persuade it is up to the DM. ifriti aren't really too common, and require knowledge of the elemental plane of fire. the knowledge check would be 10+CR or 15+CR dependant on DM discretion. can you reliably make a DC20-DC25 knowledge (the planes) check to know about Ifriti? or is that too much a skill point tax?. this is where dumping intelligence will screw you over. by reliably, i mean at least on a 10+.
Forcing the efreeti to grant the wishes is child's play. Convincing them to not want to grant you wishes in return for making wishes on their behalf would be harder. If knowing that genies grant wishes is not common knowledge by 13th level, then we can funnel some of that GP off my breastplate into funding some info-gathering, assuming the wizard you were seeking the assistance cannot simply say yay or nay.
Assuming a GM is lax enough to allow you to wish-bind genies I am sure that 25 is not hard to make.
level 8+3skill bonus=+11
int bonus=+4
You only need a 10, and if you take skill focus you need less than that.
If you are a sorcerer you can probably pay someone for their knowledge assuming the party does not have someone that is good with knowledge skills already.
Assuming a GM is lax enough to allow you to wish-bind genies I am sure that 25 is not hard to make.
level 8+3skill bonus=+11
int bonus=+4You only need a 10, and if you take skill focus you need less than that.
If you are a sorcerer you can probably pay someone for their knowledge assuming the party does not have someone that is good with knowledge skills already.
And assuming you cannot pay a sage hireling to research it for you, or spend a little cash on some divination. The DC to know of an efreeti and a special quality of theirs is DC 18. Not particularly difficult. That DC can be made by a 1st level NPC hireling with no real effort (1 rank + 3 class + 3 feat + 2 mwk tool). Could hire a little team of sage hirelings to work on documenting any and all information on creatures that can grant wishes (aid another for the win).
EDIT: In all seriousness though, inherent modifiers favor BiaJ's monk more than mine. Mine gets 0% benefit from his Wisdom to his AC or flat-footed ACs. Inherent modifiers favor monks the most because they get +2.5 to AC from Dex and +2.5 to AC from Wisdom and +2.5 to CMD from Wisdom and +2.5 to Stunning Fist from Wisdom. This actually favors BiaJ's monk more than my armor and spear monk. If I couldn't get the inherent modifiers, I'd just hang with the +3 Dex, get +2 mithral full plate (14,500 gp) instead (actually would be a net +2 AC over my breastplate monk, so perhaps I should have stuck him in heavy armor instead of just medium) and drop either Great Fortitude or Lightning Reflexes (having at least a +14 in either without the feats or inherent modifiers).
EDIT 2: I think that's the thing that bugs me the most about this. I kept within WBL AND item purchase rules, am building a character who can actually find or purchase the equipment he has (as opposed to BiaJ's monk who magically finds +3 amulets of mighty fists falling out of the sky into his lap), and he accuses me of cheating and rages over something that favors his build more than my build when I said he is entitled to the exact same treatment; and then my "core monk" wasn't terrible next to his padded monk with overpriced gear AND applied inherent modifiers.
It's like "How dare you use and allow me to use something that is legal within the rules and favors my build over yours, you dirty cheater". I'm left staring blankfaced and incredulous.
i was thinking of the Ifriti Malik, those are CR10. forgot the standard was CR 8.
it can also be argued that the DC for identifiying an Ifriti can go up or down by 5 based on the notability and commonality of the occurences.
using Golarion as an example. most of the Keleshite people of Quadira know plenty about genies, either through frequent stories (DC5+CR) or have personally witnessed one (automatically know a few traits they witnessed)
while the people of the land of the linnorm kings are so far north, that quadiran stories don't really travel, though they have an easier time identifying giants (5+CR) they have a harder time identifying genies (15+CR) and probably haven't heard of an Ifriti beyond what scholars have read about them. that is what the Ad Hoc DC modifiers in the CRB are for.
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Non-Core Monk
After my core monk, I present my non-core monk. A Master of Many Styles who emphasizes defense and killing. :D
Starting Ability Scores (Human, 'cause not just dwarfs are monks)
Str 18, Dex 16, Con 15, Int 7, Wis 11, Cha 7
She begins as a Neutral Barbarian before becoming Lawful Neutral and taking levels in Monk. At 1st level she looks like this.
Human Barbarian 1
Init +3
=========================================================================
AC 18, touch 13, flat 15 (+5 armor, +3 dex)
Hp 14 (1d12+2); Fort +4, Ref +3, Will +1
=========================================================================
Speed 30 ft. (40 ft.)
Melee glaive +5 (1d10+6/x3, reach) or club +5 (1d6+6/x2, 10 ft.)
Ranged sling +3 (1d3+4) or club +4 (1d6+4)
=========================================================================
Str 18, Dex 16, Con 15, Int 7, Wis 11, Cha 7
BAB +1, CMB +4, CMD 17
Feats~ Dodge (B), Blind-Fight (1)
Skills~ Acrobatics +7, Perception +5, Swim +7
Equipment (starting gold)~ weapons, scale mail, heavy shield, club (5), sling (10), 40 gp worth of other stuff.
Commentary: At this level she is a warrior who has not yet learned her destiny. Oooh. Anyway, at 1st level she survives well, has good AC, lots of killing potential, plenty of movement speed, can rage, and has decent to-hit bonuses. Doesn't really count at the moment 'cause this is a barbarian, not a monk, but it is all part of the Master Plan (TM) to get Uncanny Dodge...
Human Barbarian 2 / Master of Many Styles (Favored) 2 / Weapon Master 1
Init +3
=========================================================================
AC 30, touch 19, flat 18 (+7 armor, +3 dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection, +1 dodge, +4 dodge*, +3 shield)
Hp 43 (2d12+2d8+1d10+10); Fort +9, Ref +6, Will +4;
DQ - Uncanny Dodge, Evasion (in light or less), +2 vs Enchantments
=========================================================================
Speed 30 ft. (40 ft.)
Melee mwk gauntlet +7* (1d6+4/x2), mwk glaive +7* (1d10+6/x3),
Ranged mwk composite longbow +8 (1d8+4/x3)
=========================================================================
Str 19, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 12, Cha 7
BAB +4, CMB +8, CMD 22 (26*)
Feats~ Dodge (B), Blind-Fight (1), Snake Style (B), Snake Fang (B), Crane Style (3), Deflect Arrows (B), Crane Wing (5)
Skills~ Acrobatics +7 (5 ranks), Perception +5 (5 ranks), Swim +8 (1 rank), Sense Motive +11 (5 ranks)
Equipment (10,500 gp)~ mwk glaive (310 gp), mwk gauntlet (302 gp), mwk composite longbow (800 gp), +1 breastplate (1,350 gp), +1 cloak of resistance (1,000 gp), +1 amulet of natural armor (2,000 gp), +1 ring of protection (2,000 gp), +1 heavy steel shield (1,170 gp), handy haversack, 432 gp left over.
Commentary: Behold the slaughtermeister of 5th level. At this level she has become a veritable tank of deadly proportions. She has uncanny dodge (AKA "spider sense") and blind-fight which makes it very difficult to deny her of her dexterity and dodge bonuses (blindness doesn't work, darkness doesn't, flat-footed doesn't, etc). She typically carries her shield and uses a total-defense outside of combat, resulting in a 33 AC during a surprise round (IE- spider sense).
She walks around in 2 styles at this level. Crane Style and Snake Style. While in Crane and Snake style she can deflect 1 melee attack per round (always the first in a full-attack) and then punishes anyone who misses her due to Snake Fang (which allows her to slam enemies with attacks of opportunities for missing her, similar to Come and Get Me, only without the drawback). If that attack hits she can burn an immediate action to thrash them with another unarmed strike immediately after. Alternatively, she can use her Immediate action to replace her AC with her Sense Motive check result in the case someone wants to shoot her with a touch attack.
If an opponent gets the idea that trying to hit her is bad and begins trying to ignore her, she can draw her glaive and go full-out DPS and slam them over and over with a reach weapon dealing 1d10+6 damage each round. When not fighting defensively her attack rolls are +9 in melee. After a full-attack, she typically will release one hand from her glaive as a free action before ending her turn to allow her to deflect melee retorts or incoming projectiles.
Vs a standard CR 5 enemy they are dead meat.
Level 13 Barbarian 2 / Master of Many Styles 8 (Favored) / Weapon Master 3
Init +3
=========================================================================
AC 38, touch 20, flat 18 (+11 armor, +3 dex, +2 natural, +2 deflection, +1 dodge, +4 dodge*, +5 shield)
Hp 154 (2d12+8d8+3d10+84); Fort +20, Ref +15, Will +13;
DQ - Uncanny Dodge, Evasion (in light or less), +2 vs Enchantments, Slow Fall 30 ft., Disease Immunity
Ki Pool: 7
=========================================================================
Speed 30 ft. (40 ft.)
Melee +2 gauntlet w/greater magic fang +25/+20/+15* (1d10+20/x2)
Ranged +2 composite longbow +20/+15/+10 (1d8+10/x3)
=========================================================================
Str 26 (24), Dex 24 (22), Con 22 (20), Int 12, Wis 17, Cha 12
BAB +11/+6/+1, CMB +30, CMD 36 (40*)
Feats~ Dodge (B), Blind-Fight (1), Snake Style (B), Snake Fang (B), Crane Style (3), Deflect Arrows (B), Crane Wing (5), Dragon Style (B), Dragon Ferocity (7), Crane Riposte (B), Combat Reflexes (9), Power Attack (11), Step-Up (13)
Skills~ Acrobatics +23 (+31 jumping)(13 ranks), Climb +12 (1 rank), Diplomacy +11 (10 ranks), Intimidate +14 (10 ranks), Knowledge (Arcana) +2 (1 rank), Knowledge (Planes) +2 (1 rank), Knowledge (Religion) +5 (1 rank), Knowledge (Nature) +5 (1 rank), Linguistics +4 (2 ranks), Perception (13 ranks), Sense Motive +19 (13 ranks), Swim +12 (1 rank), Survival +7 (1 rank), Use Magic Device +10 (9 ranks)
Equipment (140,000 gp)~ +2 strength belt, +2 dexterity vest, +2 constitution helm, bracers of dueling (as gloves of dueling, wrist slot), +2 cold iron gauntlet, +2 mithral gauntlet, handy haversack, +2 amulet of natural armor w/ golembane scarab, +2 ring of protection, +2 composite longbow, +2 mithral full plate, +3 heavy steel shield, spellcasting services (planar binding/dimensional anchor/magic circle x15, greater magic weapon x1, permanency x1), 12,716 gp remaining for consumables.
Commentary: And here we are. Looking more like a monk now, right? 8 levels of Master of Many Styles has done a lot for our warrior lady. She is a force to be reckoned with. Her statistics assume she is fighting defensively at all times (-1 to hit, +4 to AC) while in crane style. At this level she is in crane, snake, and dragon style all at the same time. She may at her option take a -3 to hit to apply +6 to damage with her attacks with Power Attack. Her AC is a hefty 38 on the battlefield, and a whopping 41 when she is just walking around waiting to be ambushed (because if she's doing nothing else she is taking a total defense, thanks Uncanny Dodge!). Once per round as an immediate action she can substitute her AC or touch AC for a Sense Motive check. Now I could have pimped Sense Motive more but it's really just to protect against the aberrant touch attack.
She is near auto-hit territory vs AC 28 with her unarmed strike/gauntlet attacks and has an average of 25.5 damage per successful hit without power attack. Attacking her in melee is merely a request to die, and she will oblige. While in crane and snake stance with crane riposte, crane wing, and snake fang, she gets to deflect 1 attack per round and take an AoO, and make an attack of opportunity against an opponent anytime they miss her with an attack due to Snake Fang. She has Combat Reflexes, so if you try to trade blows with her she is going to murder you. If you do not decide to trade blows with her and instead attempt to ignore you, she will punish you by beating you to a pulp. She is also immune to disease.
She is also not afraid to randomly attempt combat maneuvers. If she provokes and you miss she gets to b@&*%-slap you again. She only attempts combat maneuvers with her unarmed strikes/gauntlets, so due to all the bonuses to hit she has with them, she's pretty good at it without any real specialization (+30 yo, thanks monk levels to CMB). And if you don't attack her, then she just tries to disarm, trip, or grapple you.
She uses her ki pool very little. Since she has no Flurry of Blows, she cannot gain extra attacks with it so she instead opts for speed bumps or to get +20 to her jump checks, or for +4 AC when an opponent is ferociously stronger than herself.
12000 (+2 str belt, +2 dex vest, +2 con shirt)
15000 (bracers of dueling)
10302 (+2 cold iron gauntlet)
9200 (+2 composite longbow)
8502 (+2 mithral gauntlet)
2000 (handy haversack)
3,750 (golembane scarab on amulet of natural armor)
14,500 (+2 mithral full plate)
8000 (+2 ring of protection)
8000 (+2 amulet of natural armor)
9170 (+3 heavy steel shield)
26,860 (spellcasting services)
Let the whining commence!
Here's the thing about Genies and Wishes:
- The Noble Djinni (Visier) can grant 3 wishes to a mortal one time, but can be bound with Planar Binding (only has 10HD). You would need to bind two at once to get to a +5 and would need to have bound 5 at once to not have any wasted wishes.
- The Noble Shaitan (Pasha) can cast Wish as a SLA 3/day, but requires Greater Planar Binding (it has 18HD). You might be able to make a bargain to retain their services for enough days to get your full stats, but that's pushing boundaries pretty hard and you still need two of them bound at once.
- Marids can only cast Wish 1/year. You need Planar Binding (they have 12HD) and 5 different bound Marids per ability score (or 30 castings) and that's assuming every time you bind one, it still has it's Wish available for use.
- There is no version of the Efreeti that grants Wishes.
Here's the thing about Genies and Wishes:
- The Noble Djinni (Visier) can grant 3 wishes to a mortal one time, but can be bound with Planar Binding (only has 10HD). You would need to bind two at once to get to a +5 and would need to have bound 5 at once to not have any wasted wishes.
- The Noble Shaitan (Pasha) can cast Wish as a SLA 3/day, but requires Greater Planar Binding (it has 18HD). You might be able to make a bargain to retain their services for enough days to get your full stats, but that's pushing boundaries pretty hard and you still need two of them bound at once.
- Marids can only cast Wish 1/year. You need Planar Binding (they have 12HD) and 5 different bound Marids per ability score (or 30 castings) and that's assuming every time you bind one, it still has it's Wish available for use.
- There is no version of the Efreeti that grants Wishes.
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 11th)
Constant—detect magic
At Will—plane shift (willing targets to elemental planes, Astral Plane, or Material Plane only), produce flame, pyrotechnics (DC 14), scorching ray
3/day—invisibility, quickened scorching ray, wall of fire (DC 16)
1/day—grant up to 3 wishes (to nongenies only), gaseous form, permanent image (DC 18)
12. "+3 mithral breastplate (19,200 gp)" Using your own logic this thing is above the 16,000 gold cap for an item.(Silly ain't it.)
Where on Earth did you get this number from??
Mithral Costs:
Light Armor - 1000gp
Medium Armor - 4000gp
Heavy Armor - 9000gp
Armor Enchantment Costs:
+1 - 1000gp
+2 - 4000gp
+3 - 9000gp
Breastplate Cost - 200gp
Mithral covers the MW prereq for magical enhancement. Breastplate is a Medium armor. So that's 200(Armor)+4000(Mithral)+9000(Magic)=13,200.
Even if you were to mistakenly use the Heavy Armor Mithral cost (9000gp) you'd still end up at 18,200gp, not 19,200.
Here's the thing about Genies and Wishes:
- The Noble Djinni (Visier) can grant 3 wishes to a mortal one time, but can be bound with Planar Binding (only has 10HD). You would need to bind two at once to get to a +5 and would need to have bound 5 at once to not have any wasted wishes.
- The Noble Shaitan (Pasha) can cast Wish as a SLA 3/day, but requires Greater Planar Binding (it has 18HD). You might be able to make a bargain to retain their services for enough days to get your full stats, but that's pushing boundaries pretty hard and you still need two of them bound at once.
- Marids can only cast Wish 1/year. You need Planar Binding (they have 12HD) and 5 different bound Marids per ability score (or 30 castings) and that's assuming every time you bind one, it still has it's Wish available for use.
- There is no version of the Efreeti that grants Wishes.
This one does.
Also you're not asking it to give you the wishes once, you're binding two with the task of improving your stats over 6 days, possibly in return for making wishes on their behalf.
12. "+3 mithral breastplate (19,200 gp)" Using your own logic this thing is above the 16,000 gold cap for an item.(Silly ain't it.)Where on Earth did you get this number from??
Mithral Costs:
Light Armor - 1000gp
Medium Armor - 4000gp
Heavy Armor - 9000gpArmor Enchantment Costs:
+1 - 1000gp
+2 - 4000gp
+3 - 9000gpBreastplate Cost - 200gp
Mithral covers the MW prereq for magical enhancement. Breastplate is a Medium armor. So that's 200(Armor)+4000(Mithral)+9000(Magic)=13,200.
Even if you were to mistakenly use the Heavy Armor Mithral cost (9000gp) you'd still end up at 18,200gp, not 19,200.
Dunno, but I can't fault Brain in a Jar for that one. It was my typo, not his. He was just quoting my typo. ^.^"
Here's the thing about Genies and Wishes:
- The Noble Djinni (Visier) can grant 3 wishes to a mortal one time, but can be bound with Planar Binding (only has 10HD). You would need to bind two at once to get to a +5 and would need to have bound 5 at once to not have any wasted wishes.
- The Noble Shaitan (Pasha) can cast Wish as a SLA 3/day, but requires Greater Planar Binding (it has 18HD). You might be able to make a bargain to retain their services for enough days to get your full stats, but that's pushing boundaries pretty hard and you still need two of them bound at once.
- Marids can only cast Wish 1/year. You need Planar Binding (they have 12HD) and 5 different bound Marids per ability score (or 30 castings) and that's assuming every time you bind one, it still has it's Wish available for use.
- There is no version of the Efreeti that grants Wishes.
This one does.
Also you're not asking it to give you the wishes once, you're binding two with the task of improving your stats over 6 days, possibly in return for making wishes on their behalf.
Pretty much. I assumed a group of 5 genies over 3 days = x15 spellcasting costs. Each day the efreeti cast 5 wishes in succession, then another 5 wishes in succession, then I make a wish for each of them as a form of payment, since they can grant my wish.
Here's the thing about Genies and Wishes:
- The Noble Djinni (Visier) can grant 3 wishes to a mortal one time, but can be bound with Planar Binding (only has 10HD). You would need to bind two at once to get to a +5 and would need to have bound 5 at once to not have any wasted wishes.
- The Noble Shaitan (Pasha) can cast Wish as a SLA 3/day, but requires Greater Planar Binding (it has 18HD). You might be able to make a bargain to retain their services for enough days to get your full stats, but that's pushing boundaries pretty hard and you still need two of them bound at once.
- Marids can only cast Wish 1/year. You need Planar Binding (they have 12HD) and 5 different bound Marids per ability score (or 30 castings) and that's assuming every time you bind one, it still has it's Wish available for use.
- There is no version of the Efreeti that grants Wishes.
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 11th)
Constant—detect magic
At Will—plane shift (willing targets to elemental planes, Astral Plane, or Material Plane only), produce flame, pyrotechnics (DC 14), scorching ray
3/day—invisibility, quickened scorching ray, wall of fire (DC 16)
1/day—grant up to 3 wishes (to nongenies only), gaseous form, permanent image (DC 18)
Ya know, I was looking at Genies just the other day and I swear I didn't see any Wishes on the Effret info!
I must be going blind or something <_<Still though, Efreet are probably your worst option, as they're Evil and the most likely of Geniekind to try and twist your wishes against you (seen Wishmaster? ;) ).
Dunno, but I can't fault Brain in a Jar for that one. It was my typo, not his. He was just quoting my typo. ^.^"12. "+3 mithral breastplate (19,200 gp)" Using your own logic this thing is above the 16,000 gold cap for an item.(Silly ain't it.)Where on Earth did you get this number from??
Mithral Costs:
Light Armor - 1000gp
Medium Armor - 4000gp
Heavy Armor - 9000gpArmor Enchantment Costs:
+1 - 1000gp
+2 - 4000gp
+3 - 9000gpBreastplate Cost - 200gp
Mithral covers the MW prereq for magical enhancement. Breastplate is a Medium armor. So that's 200(Armor)+4000(Mithral)+9000(Magic)=13,200.
Even if you were to mistakenly use the Heavy Armor Mithral cost (9000gp) you'd still end up at 18,200gp, not 19,200.
Sorry, should've been more clear that question was for you. ^_^
Here's the thing about Genies and Wishes:
- The Noble Djinni (Visier) can grant 3 wishes to a mortal one time, but can be bound with Planar Binding (only has 10HD). You would need to bind two at once to get to a +5 and would need to have bound 5 at once to not have any wasted wishes.
- The Noble Shaitan (Pasha) can cast Wish as a SLA 3/day, but requires Greater Planar Binding (it has 18HD). You might be able to make a bargain to retain their services for enough days to get your full stats, but that's pushing boundaries pretty hard and you still need two of them bound at once.
- Marids can only cast Wish 1/year. You need Planar Binding (they have 12HD) and 5 different bound Marids per ability score (or 30 castings) and that's assuming every time you bind one, it still has it's Wish available for use.
- There is no version of the Efreeti that grants Wishes.
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 11th)
Constant—detect magic
At Will—plane shift (willing targets to elemental planes, Astral Plane, or Material Plane only), produce flame, pyrotechnics (DC 14), scorching ray
3/day—invisibility, quickened scorching ray, wall of fire (DC 16)
1/day—grant up to 3 wishes (to nongenies only), gaseous form, permanent image (DC 18)
Ya know, I was looking at Genies just the other day and I swear I didn't see any Wishes on the Effret info!
I must be going blind or something <_<Still though, Efreet are probably your worst option, as they're Evil and the most likely of Geniekind to try and twist your wishes against you (seen Wishmaster? ;) ).
I disagree. They're the perfect individuals to get wishes from. Lawful and Evil. Why bite the hand that feeds you? Imagine for a moment that you can grant wishes but you can't wish for anything yourself. Someone says "Hey, you're an intelligent Genie. I got a deal I want to make that will help us both out. You can grant wishes but can't make them, I can't make them but have none..."
You also have to recall that they are under planar binding. Once they agree to the set condition they are magically compelled to obey it. So offering them the deal on the condition that they don't try to twist your wishes in any way you wouldn't like or ask for wishes that would be detrimental to you means that they literally cannot twist your wishes any way you would not like.
They're evil but they're not stupid. And evil doesn't mean that you just try to find reasons to poop in people's cheerios. It does mean that you're pretty much out for yourself though. Wishing for the efreeti to have inherent modifiers can make those efreeti stronger, or smarter, or more charismatic, and so forth. It's an easy way for them to one-up their rivals for essentially nothing more than about 18 seconds of their time for a period of 3 days.
If I wanted someone to grant me wishes, I imagine someone who is both lawful and evil is the best guy to do it. He cares enough to get what he wants out of it, understands the importance of honoring the agreement, and probably doesn't care what sort of consequences the wish will have on your world down the road. He's not gonna ask "Gee, is my getting a wish out of this going to enable this guy to go out and murder countless people in his homeworld? Pfft, wish for me."
Eh...you have a 5 Charisma and still don't meet the bestiary guidelines most of the time.First off, i don't need CHA for this build, i'm built a drunken dwarven monk who isn't meant to be sociable.(I could attempt a more sociable build but i didn't want to for the drunk dwarf.)
Let's be totally fair here:
"Non-sociable" is in the realm of 8-9. Maybe they're bad at conversation. Maybe they're ugly and they let that affect their self-esteem. Maybe they let their liquer talk for them. Etc.But a Charisma score of 5 is down in the "I have a mental disorder" levels. You can't function in society without help. (There has to be consequences for dropping an ability score so drastically low. It can't just be, "I'm gruff" unless your GM is coddling you.)
Eh...you have a 5 Charisma and still don't meet the bestiary guidelines most of the time.First off, i don't need CHA for this build, i'm built a drunken dwarven monk who isn't meant to be sociable.(I could attempt a more sociable build but i didn't want to for the drunk dwarf.)Let's be totally fair here:
"Non-sociable" is in the realm of 8-9. Maybe they're bad at conversation. Maybe they're ugly and they let that affect their self-esteem. Etc.
But a Charisma score of 5 is down in the "I have a mental disorder" levels. You can't function in society without help. (There has to be consequences for dropping an ability score so drastically low. It can't just be, "I'm gruff" unless your GM is coddling you.)
I have to agree with Brain in a Jar on that one, Neo2151. There's nothing preventing someone with a 5 Charisma from functioning in society. D&D does not do mental-retardation or mental-disorders by ability damage. Having X in an ability only means what it means, which is the effect it has on your statistics. A 5 Charisma is a -15% to Charisma-related things. It's entirely possible for normal people to overcome or just live with that sort of drawback. You are not a mentally enfeebled cripple-mind for having a weak mental stat somewhere.
EDIT: It's also worth noting that a 5 Charisma dwarf is the functional equivalent to a 7 Charisma human in dwarf society. What can we see by this? Well he's 10% worse at interacting with folks than most dwarfs and 15% worse at interacting with most humans. He's a pretty terrible liar. He can't use magic devices worth beans. He's not so hot at Diplomacy if his target isn't also in the same Charisma-range as himself. He 15% worse at compelling creatures through magical means (charms, planar binding, etc).
Retarded? No. Disordered? No.
If 10 is your base, and 18 is considered olympian, then the opposite should also hold true.
If 0 is catatonic and 10 is normal, then you're halfway between catatonic and normal.
Not really. 3 is 20% worse than average, 18 is 20% better than average.
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Not really. 3 is 20% worse than average, 18 is 20% better than average.
And this is why math teachers everywhere demand you show your work.
If 10 is your base, and 18 is considered olympian, then the opposite should also hold true.
If 0 is catatonic and 10 is normal, then you're halfway between catatonic and normal.
18 isn't olympian. Assuming the traditional 3d6 for NPCs, roughly 4.6 out of every 100 rolls of 3d6 produces an 18 or a 3. Now when you consider that there are 6 rolls per individual, you're likely to meet someone that has an 18 or a 3 in something roughly every 16.6 people or so.
The assertion that such statistics are mentally retarded is neither supported in the game's mechanics nor the math behind the statistics. There's a difference between being ability drained down to 0 in a stat and throwing you unconscious.
If you wanted to represent mental handicaps, status ailments would be more appropriate than ability scores.
Not really. 3 is 20% worse than average, 18 is 20% better than average.And this is why math teachers everywhere demand you show your work.
Having a 3 in a score is -4 to associated statistics and rolls; 20% lower chance of success on a d20. Likewise an 18 represents a +4 and 20% higher chance of success.
Not really. 3 is 20% worse than average, 18 is 20% better than average.And this is why math teachers everywhere demand you show your work.
Every 2 points of ability score is +1 (5% on a d20) to anything and everything based on that score (the reverse is also true). There is only a 20% difference in actual ability between someone with a 10 Charisma and 18 Charisma, just as there is only a 20% difference between 3 Charisma and 10 Charisma, and a 40% difference between a 3 Charisma and 18 Charisma.
EDIT: Ninja'd! :D
EDIT: As long as at least one of your mental statistics in Pathfinder is at least reasonable you can not only survive in the game but do relatively well for yourself. Likewise, a character with a 3 Intelligence can speak and read multiple languages fluently, hold down a lucrative job, and be a very charming individual.
What can see that Int 3 actually does? Well he can't cast spells and can't answer Knowledge questions with a DC higher than 6 regularly (which means he frequently may cite wrong information, just not know, or have to think about it a while on fairly mundane questions, but he can still take 10 and answer easy questions in a given field). He probably is super sucky at spellcraft and isn't very handy with crafting things. However, assuming that he was blessed with better Wisdom and Charisma scores than he was with creativity and bookwormish things, then he could be an incredibly great sailor, a skilled musician, a very talented scribe, or an accountant, or a farmer, or an animal trainer. He might be a friendly guy who people enjoy being around, or he might be Gaston (kinda dumb but good outdoorsy type who most folks swoon over).
So a person with an Intelligence of 2 can't speak languages, but, by all the logic I'm seeing, a Charisma of 2 just makes you kinda unpleasant? (Because your bonus/penalty really isn't all that big of a difference?) Seriously?
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Pretty much, yeah. Game's wierd that way, but that's the way it is.
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No, that's the way you choose to make it. Nothing in RAW details the difference in roleplayability between a 3 and a 5 in a score. I submit that tanking your score just so you can build up another score should have negative roleplaying consequences. You disagree.
Well, nothing in RAW details the 'roleplayability' of anything. But it does detail what a statistic means, and 3 charisma means you're 20% worse than average at charisma based tasks, nothing more.
So a person with an Intelligence of 2 can't speak languages, but, by all the logic I'm seeing, a Charisma of 2 just makes you kinda unpleasant? (Because your bonus/penalty really isn't all that big of a difference?) Seriously?
Well you aren't necessarily unpleasant. Charisma is more than just social stuff. It represents force of will as well (not will as in the saving throw but will in the sense of force of personality). Those with low Charismas are very poor at magical tests of will, and they are very easily swayed by those with higher Charisma than themselves (see Diplomacy).
A pair of 1 Charisma dwarfs talking to one another get along just as well as a pair of 10 Charisma humans talking to each other.
That being said, Intelligence has its own rules. Sub 3 means you're not sentient and don't speak. Animals and such fall into this category. Of course, in 3.x (I'm not sure it's spelled out in Pathfinder) sentient creatures can't even go below 3 without ability drain being involved (not damage, actual drain) even if their racials would push them below.
Likewise, Strength in regards to carrying capacity has measurements that are also unique and outside the range of what the game has for the rest of things. Strength multiplies carrying capacity something ferocious, and yet there's not a whole lot of difference in virtually any other test of Strength between a guy with 12 Strength and a guy with 16 Strength.
No, that's the way you choose to make it. Nothing in RAW details the difference in roleplayability between a 3 and a 5 in a score. I submit that tanking your score just so you can build up another score should have negative roleplaying consequences. You disagree.
I disagree. It has negative mechanical consequences. For example, if Brain in a Jar's monk (or my monk in fact) is charmed or dominated then the caster will easily have their way with his monk or my own (it's an opposed Charisma check to get us to do things we don't want/wouldn't do).
Inventing penalties and drawbacks for lower ability scores is a stupid as inventing new bonuses for high ones. "Oh, you've got an 18 Strength? Well then you get a +3 to all social checks because people think you're awesome" is about as reasonable as "You have a 5 Charisma? People throw tomatoes at you when you're coming!"
EDIT: HOWEVER! Mechanical drawbacks are in their own way a roleplaying drawback. His dwarf can attempt to do something but the mechanics now make it difficult for him. It is a weakness that he has. The mechanics reflect his given aptitude. If he tries to do something that relies on Charisma then he is stunted in its effectiveness without compensating elsewhere.
This is called good character design. Some of us prefer to leave Mary Sues who are made of awesome but have no flaws at the door. As a player and as a GM, I'd much sooner see a player sit down at the table and say "This is Burnswick. He's a powerful, physically strong fellow but he has a short temper and he sometimes fumbles his words when he gets nervous. It's something he's working on though, and he seeks to adventure because normal society has little to offer him." (stats being 16, 14, 14, 9, 12, 6) as opposed to "This is Carlin. He's a skilled woodsman with no flaws or anything that he is disadvantaged next to the average person like that silly Burnswick" (has 14, 12, 12, 12, 10, and 12).
I would argue the difference is that there is no upper limit to how high a score can go, but there is a lower limit.
I would argue the difference is that there is no upper limit to how high a score can go, but there is a lower limit.
The point I'm saying is that ability scores alone are merely a starting point to your characters actual capabilities. They are not - nor have they ever been - a measurement of all possible spectrums. A person with a 1 Strength with enough practice is capable of fighting wars, swimming canals, and so forth. They just really, really suck at it, and are encumbered quickly and easily.
1 Strength does not equate to physically damaged. It doesn't mean you're crippled and can't go to work. It just means you are incredibly weak for a human (size has as much an influence on what Strength means as well, as a huge creature with 1 strength is actually much stronger in lifting / carrying stuff than a medium size with 1 Strength).
If you want an actual physical handicap then you need some sort of condition or affliction beyond ability scores. In much the same way that having 3 Int, Wis, and Cha doesn't make you schizophrenic or paranoid or mean you drool on yourself. Hell, MINDLESS creatures in D&D are actually like incredibly advanced robots (with an effective +0 to anything relying on Intelligence, which means that telling a golem to build a you a raft is about as effective as telling a 10 Int person to do so without training).
Which ultimately is my point again. Ability scores are neither absolute measurements nor do they do anything they do not say they do, nor are they supposed to represent every physical or mental possibility of humans beyond the norm. I have a friend that was born with Muscular Dystrophy. She is confined to an electric wheel chair. She cannot walk. She cannot properly move her arms. She is alert, awake, and aware, she can talk if somewhat strained to do so sometimes. She has trouble lifting her head. This was something that she has had since birth.
Not even 1 Str, 1 Dex, or 1 Con mirrors this, because they are not supposed to. Neither does 0 Str, Dex, or Con, because again they are not supposed to. If you have a true problem that sets you apart with a disability or drawback then it should not be represented by ability scores.
The same is true for mental diseases and handicaps. At the end of the day, a 5 Charisma means you suck at force of personality and/or social based checks. How you describe that is entirely up to you and no one else, not even the GM. It's your character, it's your mechanical drawback. It doesn't mean that you suffer from mental disabilities or damages. You might give your character a mental disability or damage and then use the mechanical drawback to represent that in game, but it is no way forced or require you to.
For example. I had a Paladin with a 7 Constitution. I made up some stuff about her being born with a rare blood disease and said that as a result she had a frail body and a poor immune system for most of her life. Having a 7 Con doesn't mean a character has a blood disorder though. What it does mean is that they are more susceptible to poisons and disease and their bodies give out sooner, because that's what the mechanics of it do. I could have just as easily said she's physically robust but always zigs when she should have zagged (effectively suffering more relative to the wound) and gets sick easily because she doesn't eat enough vitamin C.
But enough about ability scores for a moment. I think Brain in a Jar's 5 Charisma dwarf is fine as far as his ability scores go, and I'd much rather talk about the Monk I posted above, which has yet to have even so much as a single tiny comment concerning. :P
Your Monk is not a Monk. It is a Barbarian with no Wisdom bonus. :P
(Actually, I'd argue any Monk that ignores their wisdom and wears armor isn't really a "Monk" because you're ignoring your class features in favor of increasing your chances to hit and get a higher AC easier.
You lose Wis to AC, you lose Monk AC bonus, you lose Flurry, Fast Movement, Evasion... Why are you even a Monk?)
I agree with Neo dump statting below 8 should have serious roleplaying consequences. Your argument about dice rolling stats doesn't hold up. The "reality" of the world isn't based on a 3d6 roll. The higher 16+ and lower stats 7- are actually much less common than that. by your math 1 in 16 people has one 18. a stat that is supposed to represent the near pinnacle of raw human ability without magic or serious experience.
And the thing about it is that ability scores don't mean as much as they used to. Seriously, back in pre-3E, ability scores ranged from 1 to 25. 25 man. Gods themselves had no more than 25. The mightiest dragons in the world had 25. 20+ Constitution means you REGENERATE in older editions. When you had an 18/00 ability score in Strength, you were one of the strongest mo-fo's in the whole world.
However, today ability scores are not like that. Ability scores are much more consistent and linear. Ranges from 3-18 actually represent most people in the world pretty well based on the mechanics that follow them. I know people in everyday life who probably could have very fairly been statted with one or more scores below 7. Likewise, I know people who are so naturally strong as to easily consider a 100 lbs. a "light load" before he was out of high school (but now he has been injured in an automobile accident and has difficulties walking).
18 in a stat is not that special. In Pathfinder a 20 in a statistic is pretty special. It means that not only are you quite gifted compared to the norm (which is between 7-14 or so) but you also have your +2 in that stat as well.
I understand what you're saying. There's nothing in the game the enforces anything more substantial than the negative and except for a few corner cases CHA is almost useless except to spontaneous casters and a few skill monkey archetypes. But that kind of thinking reminds me of the old chestnut that in 3rd edition that martials could effectively stay up forever. Sleep RAW only impacted spell recovery and non magical healing, but when that was pointed out I quickly introduced house rules because to me it cause a disruption in my suspension of disbelief. I have similar issues with stat dumping, but that's my opinion. RAW you are correct.
I can't get behind that. Introducing house rules for sleeping is one thing, but inventing new benefits and penalties because you are attributing something to ability scores that ability scores are not supposed to represent is an entirely different matter. They have the drawbacks they are intended and they are spelled out.
Your Monk is not a Monk. It is a Barbarian with no Wisdom bonus. :P
(Actually, I'd argue any Monk that ignores their wisdom and wears armor isn't really a "Monk" because you're ignoring your class features in favor of increasing your chances to hit and get a higher AC easier.
You lose Wis to AC, you lose Monk AC bonus, you lose Flurry, Fast Movement, Evasion... Why are you even a Monk?)
Most monks ignore their class features. When was the last time you saw monks using weapons granted to them by their proficiencies that weren't monk-weapons (my core-monk doesn't count :P)?
Also, it's funny that with only 2 levels of barbarian, no rage (yet anyway) and 3 levels of weaponmaster vs 8 levels of monk (adding non-monk levels together still doesn't meet the number of monk levels in the build) and suddenly it's "not a monk".
The only class feature it's not using is Wisdom to AC. EDIT: And evasion, but evasion doesn't go away, and at very high levels I'd hope to see if the GM would be willing to let me preform some sort of favor to an NPC get my mithral plate turned into some mithral celestial plate, and then my Evasion would kick in again. That's a bit outside this discussion though.
I don't really see how she's not a monk because she wears armor. She has primarily monk levels, she specializes in unarmed fighting and funky unarmed fighting styles, she's good at running and jumping, and she has a ki pool.
Screams "monk" to me; to be a monk you don't have to pointlessly abandon things that are more effective.
Also, she doesn't "lose" flurry. She's a Master of Many Styles; she never had it to begin with.
Well, for starters, the thread is about the Core Monk. This is absolutely not a Core Monk.
Secondly, no one will support the "gauntlets do more than d3" argument. The Devs have been absolutely crystal clear in their intent, and (to my knowledge) Ultimate Equipment is updated in it's wording. Gauntlets are weapons, not unarmed strikes.
Finally, her Monk levels have nothing to do with being a Monk and have more to do with "backdooring" her way into multiple style feats at the same time.
Now, there's nothing wrong with doing this, and it makes for a rather powerful character option, but in what way do you even feel like a Monk? Going into battle with your gauntlets and shield or you glaive, ignoring anything that relies on wisdom or being unarmored.
It's a non-core monk, that was the point. Ashiel already posted a core monk.
I'm not sure you're going to be swayed, and I certainly feel like it qualifies- at the very least technically, as monk levels are the majority- so we'll have to agree to disagree.
Well, for starters, the thread is about the Core Monk. This is absolutely not a Core Monk.
Secondly, no one will support the "gauntlets do more than d3" argument. The Devs have been absolutely crystal clear in their intent, and (to my knowledge) Ultimate Equipment is updated in it's wording. Gauntlets are weapons, not unarmed strikes.
Finally, her Monk levels have nothing to do with being a Monk and have more to do with "backdooring" her way into multiple style feats at the same time.Now, there's nothing wrong with doing this, and it makes for a rather powerful character option, but in what way do you even feel like a Monk? Going into battle with your gauntlets and shield or you glaive, ignoring anything that relies on wisdom or being unarmored.
Um, I already did a core monk Neo. It was told to build a core monk and a non-core monk. In both cases, it was more helpful to the character to wear armor. Sorry if that offends you, but that's just the way it is.
As to gauntlets, if they get an errata then good for them. At the moment they do exactly what I have said they do. You can go look at the actual rule text for them in the equipment section of the PRD. I'll wait. Gauntlets are unarmed strikes that deal lethal damage and are still unarmed attacks. As unarmed strikes, the damage increases via the monk increase to unarmed strike damage. Personally I have no issues with a monk or any other martial artist donning gloves to hit harder and protect their hands, because it has some precedent in reality with martial artists wrapping their hands in wet cords and letting them dry to hurt their opponents more (Mauy Thai) and it was good enough for the drow monk in BG:DA II.
As far as feeling like a monk, well I'm beating people down with my hands, deflecting arrows and incoming blows with sick martial arts, punishing attacks like Ip Man, and anticipating incoming strikes by reading an opponent's motions and then crushing them with counter attacks.
Meanwhile, I enjoy enhanced ki abilities, strong movement speed, great saving throws, improved unarmed strike damage, various defensive features and have room to grow. By 20th level (7 levels from now) I will have the ability to dimension door around (enhancing my ability to play cat and mouse) and so forth.
It seems to me that your problem with this is that I'm wearing armor and carrying a shield. Humorously I had originally considered using a longsword and a free hand and fluffing the character up as sort of a chinese swordsmaster but then decided to go more for an armored martial artist.
The barbarian levels were essentially must-haves due to Uncanny Dodge. Monks need their Dex and Dodge bonuses something fierce, and Uncanny Dodge helps with that immensely. The barbarian's movement speed helps more than the monk movement speed does, especially in conjunction with the armor. It's called a tradeoff, but a good tradeoff. I get to be less MAD and have more AC, and in return I don't get Wisdom to AC and my movement speed is slower.
I actually imagine her, in my head, as having a pretty awesome fighting style that involves a lot of spinning and powerful singular strikes, combined with the ability to catch incoming attacks with her shield before throwing her whole body into a powerful double-fisted strike (similar to the Dragon-style strike Sub Zero uses in latter Mortal Kombat games, only one arm has a shield on it which makes it seem more painful somehow, even if the shield isn't actually doing the hitting).
I even have plans for her Spell Resistance (part of the reason I started investing in Use Magic Device). The caster ignores spell resistance when targeting themselves with spells (which is why personal range spells omit the line about saves / SR), and when you drink a potion you are treated as being the caster and the target (which means I can use common cheap potions while using SR for defense, and if my defenses hold out then I can decide ahead of time when to lower it for my allies to cast spells on me).
EDIT: Actually maybe less spinning and more redirection / deflection, kind of like Ip Man. The armor helps absorb impacts and allow a more solid transition from defends to offense.
In both cases, it was more helpful to the character to wear armor. Sorry if that offends you, but that's just the way it is.
Please don't misunderstand, I'm not offended at all.
You suggest that ignoring Wisdom is a superior choice in a class that is supposed to be quite reliant on Wisdom. That serves to cast further light on the fact that there's something wrong with the class.As to gauntlets, to my knowledge the info in UE is the update you're looking for. If you're waiting for the .pdf/PRD to be updated, you can add it to the long list of other things that have been said to need errata and haven't received them yet. Bottom line, any GM who knows/is shown where a lead developer says, "Hey, X needs errata because it actually works like Y" will take that into consideration.
And, for what it's worth, with gauntlets treated like weapons, you may not have a hand free for Crane Riposte. (Also, is ignoring Wisdom a good idea for a build that's relying pretty heavily on Snake Style?)