On the subject of "Why all the monk hate", a friend of mine and I were talking on Skype about this very topic and the recent posts. After asking permission (and scribbling out our skype names), here is the conversation.
Ashiel:Y'know, in hindsight, I'm ecstatic. My core-only monk is comparable to a dwarf drunken master with lots of splat material and traits. XD
Friend: Yeah. Even at level 13 his AC is bad, early levels would have been hell.
Friend: I don't think he would live in early levels. He's melee only at 1st level with 16 AC and no option for a shield. Even a DPR martial can sit at 18 AC at 1st level while using a 2 hander and grab a shield to get AC 20. Not even assuming your role is tanking or you invested in anything other than Power Attack. >.>
Friend: Who gets power attack at level one? xD
Ashiel: He has absolutely no ranged capability. A few bestiary goblins would dismantle him in short order.
Friend: You kill anything CR reasonable at that level with a two hander anyway
Ashiel: Heheh, I agree. XD
Friend: Power attack just makes you less likely to kill enemies
Ashiel: Truth be told, I usually grab a feat like Improved Initiative at 1st level.
Ashiel: Or a save-buffer, or Toughness. >.>
Friend: Yeah
Friend: Toughness and Improved Initiative are the best <3
Friend: People put too much emphasis on "look how much damage I can do when I full attack!"
Friend: Well yeah. It's nice. But enemies won't always just stand still and let you beat on them.
Ashiel: Exactly.
Ashiel: I basically realized that monks have no reach weapons, no good ways to lock enemies into melee with you. Your AoOs are also at a piss-poor to-hit, so you can't even reliably punish them from leaving you.
Ashiel: So I decided that my core-monk should not get too comfortable with flurry...
Friend: Seriously. That's the worst aspect of the pseudo-full-BAB they get from flurrying
Friend: It means they have to be considered as if their damage output is full BAB worthy, but enemies can just walk around them like they're not there
Just something that I figured I might share, and it also saves me the trouble of explaining one of the optimization choices I made with my monk.
EDIT: Edited out the timestamps. My friend suggested that giving out my timezone might be a bad idea. >.>
Shallowsoul, this monk is dire. He shows up all the problems with monks we have talked about."Dugan Stoneknuckles" 10th level Dwarven Monk (20 point buy)
Str:16
Dex:14
Con:14
Int:13
Wis:21
Cha:5
Init:+2
AC: 25
29 (Versus Giants)
HP: 10d8 + 10
Spd: 50
Fort: +11 (+2 vs spells, spell like and Poison)
Ref: +11 (+2 vs spells, spell like and Posion)
Will: +14 (+2 vs spells, spelllike and Posion)(+2 vs Enchantment spells and effects)
Attack: Flurry: +14/+14/+9/+9 Spend a Ki Point for another +14: 2d6 + 5
Kamas: +12/+12 Spend Ki Point +12: 1d6 +3
Feats: Mobility, Dodge, Extra Ki, Stunning Fist DC: 20 10/day (Fatigued & Sickened), Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike), Spring Attack, Combat Expertise,
Ki Pool: 9
Abilities: Darkvision 60ft, Evasion, Improved Evasion, Fast Movement, Still Mind, Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike, Maneuver Training, Ki Pool (Magic & Lawful), Slow Fall 50ft, Purity of Body, High Jump, Defensive Training, Greed, Hatred, Hardy, Stability, Stonecutting, Weapon Familiarity, Wholeness of Body,
Skills: Acrobatics: +10, Climb: +3, Escape Artist: +7, Perception: +15, Sense Motive: +12, Stealth: +11, Swim: +3.
Items: Belt of Giant Str +2, Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2, Bracers of Armor +4, Cloak of Resistance +2, Masterwork Cold Iron Kama, Masterwork Silver Kama, Monk’s Robes, Amulet of Mighty Fists +2,I still have three feats to choose so as soon as I decide which ones to take I will post them.
- His AC is on the low side. Not the worst I have seen, but it's not great either. Combined with his hp, he's a glass cannon.
- His hitting is not good. At 10th level he should be looking at +16 at least. This is the level that other combat classes start at, and usually have means to boost it further.
- Hit points will be poor, the equivelant of a combat class with a 10 Con. The only warrior I'd take into a fight with a Con score this low is a paladin who can self-heal.
- Damage output looks good, but it's not. If he runs into anything with any kind of serious DR he's in trouble. So he's a glass cannon with glass cannon balls.
- Saves are pretty good. Skills are OK. He's hard to sneak up on and hard to hurt by magic or traps, but he's not going to be scouting well either.
He basically shows that if you try to balance the line between strength and dexterity, it doesn't work well for you. His odds to hit are too low, and his damage output isn't great, and neither is his AC. His stunning fist is nasty, but only if it hits. Put him up against a CR10 creature and he struggles: it hits him easier than he hits it, so it will do more DPR to him than him to it, and it has more hit points to soak the damage so it can probably withstand being stunned once (odds are not good, though - 30% chance of failing the save if it's got a good fort save, combined with a 55% chance to hit means only 1/6 attempts will work).
The first boss-fight I faced with my last monk at level 10 was a devil, and it shut me down completely: flying, so no trip; natural weapons, so no disarm; high AC, so I couldn't hit it readily; DR, so even when I did, I could only score minimal damage. All I could usefully do was provide flanking, and that's all your monk could do in such a situation as well.
Now look at him with the changes I've suggested:
Better? Yes, a quantum leap in ability. Broken? No, it's where most combat classes start, save for the ability to bypass DR.
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You can build Ashiel's Monk using the Warrior NPC class instead and it would contribute equally well to a party.
That's awful.
(Scratch that - The Warrior has proficiency with superior weapons. The Warrior version is actually better!)Shows just how (not) useful aaaaall those nifty Monk abilities are, doesn't it?
Yeah. Also Ashiel's Monk example is also riddled with incorrect math and rules and is made with the intention of being bad from the looks of it.
First, it's a build, so progress.
Second, as I said to Dabbler (lest I hear about it) having someone in the anti-monk build make a monk build isn't helpful to proving monks are lacking.
If you are pro-monk is fine show a monk that doesn't suck.
If you are saying the monk isn't fine, post a same level build of another 3/4 BaB class and show how the monk doesn't compete.
Also, putting it behind spoiler tags so it isn't a wall of text = not hard to do.
Why didn't the bbeg save the monk for last?
As is... I think he optimized for PFS or similar challenges; which require less optimization. I enjoy PFS scenarios - as they tend to be varied enough for my monk characters to cope just fine and contribute frequently.** spoiler omitted **...
Because the monk was giving him hell (specifically preventing him from pursuing the feared allies). By the time the initial spells cleared, the premises were empty, save for the monk, the BBEG, and the summons (everybody else being panicked away). And the monk kept the BBEG just-about in-place (positioning, trips, forcing provokes, etc).
Male Dwarf
LN Medium Humanoid (dwarf)
Init +1; Senses Darkvision 60ft; Perception +22
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Defense
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AC 28,touch 24, flat-footed 26
hp 140 (13 HD)
Fort +14, Ref +13, Will +18 (+2 poison and spells or spell-like abilities; +2 enchantments)
Defensive Abilities Improved Evasion, Defensive Training(+4 dodge bonus against giant subtype)
Immune: Disease, Poison
SR: 23
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Offense
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Speed 60 ft.
Melee Unarmed Strike +19/+14 (2d8+9/19-20x2)
Flurry Unarmed Strike +21/+21/+16/+16/+11 (2d8+9/19-20x2)
Critical Focus (+4 attack to confirm critical confirmation)
Stunning Fist(13/Day; Fort DC 24; Choose: Stun 1 round, Fatigued, Sickened 1 minute, or Staggered 1d6+1 rounds.)
Medusa's Wrath(Whenever you use the full-attack action and make at least one unarmed strike, you can make two additional unarmed strikes at your highest base attack bonus. These bonus attacks must be made against a dazed, flat-footed, paralyzed, staggered, stunned, or unconscious foe.)
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Statistics
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Str 22, Dex 12, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 22, Cha 5
Base Atk +9; CMB +22(+2 Grapple); CMD 39 (+4 Bull Rush, Trip)
Feats: Toughness, Dodge, Stunning Fist, Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Mobility, Weapon Focus(Unarmed Strike), Medusa's Wrath, Improved Critical(Unarmed Strike), Ability Focus(Stunning Fist), Critical Focus
Skills: Acrobatics +10(+22 jumping), Climb +10, Knowledge(History) +5, Knowledge(Religion) +5, Perception +22, Sense Motive +22, Stealth +16, Swim +10
Languages: Common, Dwarven,
SQ: AC Bonus +4, Fast Movement (+40'), High Jump(1 Ki), Ki Pool(12 points), Maneuver Training, Slow Fall 60', Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sickened, Staggered), Unarmed Strike (2d8), Wholeness of Body(2 Ki), Abundant Step(2 Ki), Stability, Slow and Steady, Greed, Stonecunning, Hatred, Still Mind, Purity of Body, Diamond Body, Diamond Soul,
Gear: Amulet of Mighty Fists(+3), Ring of Protection(+2), Monk's Robe, Belt of Giant Strength(+6), Bracers of Armor(+4), Headband of Inspired Wisdom(+4), Cloak of Resistance(+2), Clay Jug(filled with Dwarven Stout)
Male Dwarf
LN Medium Humanoid (dwarf)
Init +1; Senses Darkvision 60ft; Perception +11
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Defense
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AC 18,touch 17, flat-footed 16
hp 56 (5 HD)
Fort +9, Ref +6, Will +8 (+2 poison and spells or spell-like abilities; +2 enchantments)
Defensive Abilities Evasion, Defensive Training(+4 dodge bonus against giant subtype)
Immune: Disease
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee Unarmed Strike +8 (1d8+4/x2) or
Melee Mwk Silver Kama +7 (1d6+2/x2) or
Melee Mwk Cold Iron Kama +7 (1d6+3/x2)
Ranged Mwk Sling +5 (1d4+3/x2) 50ft
Flurry Unarmed Strike +8/+8 (1d8+4/x2) or
Flurry Mwk Silver Kama +7/+7 (1d6+2/x2) or
Flurry Mwk Cold Iron Kama +7/+7 (1d6+3/x2)
Stunning Fist(5/Day; Fort DC 17; Choose: Stun 1 round, Fatigued)
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Statistics
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Str 16, Dex 12, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 5
Base Atk +3; CMB +8(+2 Grapple); CMD 23 (+4 Bull Rush, Trip)
Feats: Toughness, Dodge, Stunning Fist, Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Weapon Focus(Unarmed Strike),Ability Focus(Stunning Fist),
Skills: Acrobatics +7, Climb +7, Knowledge(History) +4, Knowledge(Religion) +4, Perception +11, Sense Motive +9, Stealth +9, Swim +7
Languages: Common, Dwarven,
SQ: AC Bonus +1, Fast Movement (+10'), High Jump(1 Ki), Ki Pool(5 points), Maneuver Training, Slow Fall 20', Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue), Unarmed Strike (1d8), Stability, Slow and Steady, Greed, Stonecunning, Hatred, Still Mind, Purity of Body,
Gear: Mwk Silver Kama, Mwk Cold Iron Kama, Mwk Sling, (20) Bullets, Amulet of Mighty Fists(+1), Ring of Protection(+1), Bracers of Armor(+1), Cloak of Resistance(+1), Clay Jug(filled with Dwarven Stout)
Male Dwarf
LN Medium Humanoid (dwarf)
Init +1; Senses Darkvision 60ft; Perception +7
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Defense
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AC 15,touch 15, flat-footed 13
hp 15 (1 HD)
Fort +5, Ref +3, Will +5 (+2 poison and spells or spell-like abilities)
Defensive Abilities Defensive Training(+4 dodge bonus against giant subtype)
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Offense
--------------------
Speed 20 ft.
Melee Unarmed Strike +3 (1d6+3/x2) or
Melee Kama +3 (1d6+3/x2)
Ranged Sling +1 (1d4+3/x2) 50ft
Flurry Unarmed Strike +2/+2 (1d6+3/x2) or
Flurry Kama +2/+2 (1d6+3/x2)
Stunning Fist(1/Day; Fort DC 13; Choose: Stun 1 round)
--------------------
Statistics
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Str 16, Dex 12, Con 17, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 5
Base Atk +0; CMB +3; CMD 18 (+4 Bull Rush, Trip)
Feats: Toughness, Dodge, Stunning Fist, Improved Unarmed Strike,
Skills: Acrobatics +5, Perception +7, Sense Motive +7, Stealth +5,
Languages: Common, Dwarven,
SQ: Stunning Fist (Stun), Unarmed Strike (1d6), Stability, Slow and Steady, Greed, Stonecunning, Hatred,
Gear: Clay Jug(filled with Dwarven Stout), Sling, (20) Bullets, (2) Kama,
There is the progression of 1st, 5th, and 13th of a Core only Monk.
On the topic of people starting monk threads and not coming back I think the issue is that they see all of the proof against them, and realize they have no defense.
I always figured it was due to it being a bit like walking into a fundamentalist church as an buddhist and trying to convert them. You're not going to make any headway with something so dogmatic, buddy.
It's probably a mix of both.
** spoiler omitted **...
Nice, solid builds there. Looking at the basics:
AC - all are a few points down of where a martial class would really like to be. Not a huge amount down, but these monks are not gracefully evading all damage, in a serious fight they will take a hard beating if the do not end it fast.
HP - good all round, for monks. On a par with other martial classes.
Attacks: FoB is a few points down from where another martial would be, single attacks are a few points down from where a solid 3/4 BAB class would be.
Damage: Damage is good, enough that a target will not be able to ignore you, if you hit it. Medusa's wrath gives you a lot of extra options, but unfortunately getting that disabling hit in the first place is the trick. DR will bring your damage down hard, but it won't render you useless.
Saves: are very good, can't fault this one there.
Overall, you've sacrificed AC to be almost as good as another martial class at attacks and damage at the given levels.
Effect of the changes I have talked about would largely be to gain +1 to hit at 5th and 13th, and maybe swap +2 on the amulet for +2 of properties, or an AoNA. The biggest effect on these builds is that if you had Wis-to-hit you would be able to re-balance dex and strength a little better. That would lose you a few points of damage per hit but gain twice as much AC in the trade. You could then match a martial for attacks and AC, be close to it for damage, and have your own special features (bypass DR, stunning fist) to back yourself up. They of course would have their special features - weapon training, rage, smite, favoured enemy - to add in, so you will still be behind them, but at that point your good defences can make the difference.
I must agree Dabbler. The Core only Monk does suffer a bit and i am eager to see the small changes that will be done by Paizo.
I like alot of people realize the slight weakness in the Monk comes directly from it's Core. All that is required is a small tweak.
Once you allow the UC, APG, UM, etc. the archetypes do just fine.
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I must agree Dabbler. The Core only Monk does suffer a bit and i am eager to see the small changes that will be done by Paizo.
I like alot of people realize the slight weakness in the Monk comes directly from it's Core. All that is required is a small tweak.
Once you allow the UC, APG, UM, etc. the archetypes do just fine.
Eh...you have a 5 Charisma and still don't meet the bestiary guidelines most of the time.
I don't think comparing a PC to the monster guidelines is the best idea. If you're comparing CR-equal-to-Class-Level, then you're looking at what should be an average fight against a solo creature for a 4 person group. If the goal is to make an solo NPC monk to fight the party, then yea, sure. But with PCs, that's the wrong metric.
Eh...you have a 5 Charisma and still don't meet the bestiary guidelines most of the time.I must agree Dabbler. The Core only Monk does suffer a bit and i am eager to see the small changes that will be done by Paizo.
I like alot of people realize the slight weakness in the Monk comes directly from it's Core. All that is required is a small tweak.
Once you allow the UC, APG, UM, etc. the archetypes do just fine.
First off, i don't need CHA for this build, i'm built a drunken dwarven monk who isn't meant to be sociable.(I could attempt a more sociable build but i didn't want to for the drunk dwarf.)
Secondly,
1st
HP 15 (I have 15)Check
AC 12 (I have 15)Check
High Attack 2 (I have +3 or +2 with Flurry)Check
Average Damage High 7/Low 5 (I have 12)Check
Primary DC 12 (I have a 13) Check
Good Save 4 (I have a 5) Check
Bad Save 1 (I have a 3) Check
5th
HP 55 (I have 56) Check
AC 18 (I have 18) Check
High Attack 10 (I have 8)
Average Damage High 20/ Low 15 (I have 16) Check
Primary DC 15 (I have 17) Check
Good Save 8 (I have 9) Check
Bad Save 4 (I have 6) Check
13th
HP 180 (I have 140)
AC 28 (I have 28) Check
High Attack 22 (I have 21)
Average Damage High 60/ Low 45 (I have 90) Check
Primary DC 21 (I have 24) Check
Good Save 16 (I have 18) Check
Bad Save 12 (I have 13) Check
So i don't know i i don't meet the Bestiary guidelines "most of the time".
At 1st i met them all, at 5th i missed only one by 2 points, and at 13th i only missed two both of which i was still close.
Fair point. Something still doesn't sit right about it, since there are some classes that'll be way below most the metrics and still will be pretty hard for a party.
stupid trees and forests hiding each other
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I've been looking at a good many creatures with a CR 10 and the Monk is at an average of 50% to hit. AC 21 to 24 is what I've been seeing.My Monk may end up spending a good bit of Ki in combat but he can still do some damage. 2d6+5/2d6+5/2d6+5/2d6+5 spend some Ki and add another 2d6+5.
You can't just look at the 2d6+5 and say I can do damage. Your to hit is way below par. I ran the numbers in a post above. Your monk does 41 DPR against AC 24, assuming haste and ki stacks. Just blowing ki you are only doing 29. With just haste you are at 33. A non-optimized lvl 10 THF is at 90+ which I just eyeballed. I don't think being 1/3 of the gold standard of DPR is anywhere near adequate for any class much less a class with no spell casting.
Now with the rogue, you are assuming you are going to get Sneak Attack every round which may not be the case.
Also, there is nothing wrong with a 50% to hit rate, it's not the best but it's not the worst.
41 DPR is always better than 0 DPR so I'm not sure where you're going. Is there a specific "damage" to "hit point" ratio that should be achieved by each PC?
I get the feeling that people are expecting more from the Monk than what the designers wanted to give. I believe Monks were never ever intended to be a primary damage dealer
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I also don't see how i get "trashed: by DR i bypass magic, silver, cold iron with my Amulet(+3).I thought the ruling was that AoMF only lets you get through DR/magic, not any other sort of DR granted by having a high weapon enhancement bonus.
And what's your plan for DR/good?
Not a good way to approach this, that's like moving the goalposts.
You can expect every class to be geared up for everything. "If" he comes up against creatures with DR/Good then maybe he can get a boost from a spellcaster.
It is okay to accept help from spellcasters. Been that way in D&D for a long time.
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41 DPR is always better than 0 DPR so I'm not sure where you're going. Is there a specific "damage" to "hit point" ratio that should be achieved by each PC?
I get the feeling that people are expecting more from the Monk than what the designers wanted to give. I believe Monks were never ever intended to be a primary damage dealer
Hand my wizard a dagger and she'll stab things for more than 0 DPR.
Hand a level 1 Commoner a dagger and she'll stab things for more than 0 DPR. Granted, it will probably only be 0.05, but hey, that's better than 0, right?
We get it, shallowsoul, until it gets to the point where you're literally doing absolutely nothing at any time ever, you're going to feel satisfied. But not everyone else feels like "better than 0 DPR" is a reasonable standard.
So what is the Monk intended to be? Its abilities are mostly either strictly combat (such as flurry and stunning fist), or passive immunities for corner cases that can't be used actively. It's not much of a skill-monkey - 4+INT skill points per level, when INT is one of the only stats its MADness doesn't already demand a high score in, is a joke. Meanwhile, the stated purpose of the monk - take advantage of enemy weaknesses and aid allies - aren't reflected in the class features in any way (which is a shame, because those actually sound like they would have been really cool if they'd actually been done right - or, rather, done at all).
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Shallowsoul, this monk is dire. He shows up all the problems with monks we have talked about."Dugan Stoneknuckles" 10th level Dwarven Monk (20 point buy)
Str:16
Dex:14
Con:14
Int:13
Wis:21
Cha:5
Init:+2
AC: 25
29 (Versus Giants)
HP: 10d8 + 10
Spd: 50
Fort: +11 (+2 vs spells, spell like and Poison)
Ref: +11 (+2 vs spells, spell like and Posion)
Will: +14 (+2 vs spells, spelllike and Posion)(+2 vs Enchantment spells and effects)
Attack: Flurry: +14/+14/+9/+9 Spend a Ki Point for another +14: 2d6 + 5
Kamas: +12/+12 Spend Ki Point +12: 1d6 +3
Feats: Mobility, Dodge, Extra Ki, Stunning Fist DC: 20 10/day (Fatigued & Sickened), Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike), Spring Attack, Combat Expertise,
Ki Pool: 9
Abilities: Darkvision 60ft, Evasion, Improved Evasion, Fast Movement, Still Mind, Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike, Maneuver Training, Ki Pool (Magic & Lawful), Slow Fall 50ft, Purity of Body, High Jump, Defensive Training, Greed, Hatred, Hardy, Stability, Stonecutting, Weapon Familiarity, Wholeness of Body,
Skills: Acrobatics: +10, Climb: +3, Escape Artist: +7, Perception: +15, Sense Motive: +12, Stealth: +11, Swim: +3.
Items: Belt of Giant Str +2, Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2, Bracers of Armor +4, Cloak of Resistance +2, Masterwork Cold Iron Kama, Masterwork Silver Kama, Monk’s Robes, Amulet of Mighty Fists +2,I still have three feats to choose so as soon as I decide which ones to take I will post them.
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- His AC is on the low side. Not the worst I have seen, but it's not great either. Combined with his hp, he's a glass cannon.
- His hitting is not good. At 10th level he should be looking at +16 at least. This is the level that other combat classes start at, and usually have means to boost it further.
- Hit points will be poor, the equivelant of a combat class with a 10 Con. The only warrior I'd take into a fight with a Con score this low is a paladin who can self-heal.
- Damage output looks good, but it's not. If he
Well at this level he does have self heal, not much but something. I still have a few feats to select and I could sacrifice some Int, take a cut in some skills and gain a higher strength if I wanted. Typical AC for 10th level creatures is around 24 so that's 50% with my +14 attacks.
One thing I will say is that it's not good to critique a build by looking at it first and then choosing specific monsters with specific abilities that can hurt the class or shut it down, you can do that with any class. We don't even know if the Monk will come up against those types of creatures so that's not really being fair to the class. Don't forget that there are also bonuses for flanking and party buffs from other classes.
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41 DPR is always better than 0 DPR so I'm not sure where you're going. Is there a specific "damage" to "hit point" ratio that should be achieved by each PC?
I get the feeling that people are expecting more from the Monk than what the designers wanted to give. I believe Monks were never ever intended to be a primary damage dealer
Hand my wizard a dagger and she'll stab things for more than 0 DPR.
Hand a level 1 Commoner a dagger and she'll stab things for more than 0 DPR. Granted, it will probably only be 0.05, but hey, that's better than 0, right?
We get it, shallowsoul, until it gets to the point where you're literally doing absolutely nothing at any time ever, you're going to feel satisfied. But not everyone else feels like "better than 0 DPR" is a reasonable standard.
So what is the Monk intended to be? Its abilities are mostly either strictly combat (such as flurry and stunning fist), or passive immunities for corner cases that can't be used actively. It's not much of a skill-monkey - 4+INT skill points per level, when INT is one of the only stats its MADness doesn't already demand a high score in, is a joke. Meanwhile, the stated purpose of the monk - take advantage of enemy weaknesses and aid allies - aren't reflected in the class features in any way (which is a shame, because those actually sound like they would have been really cool if they'd actually been done right - or, rather, done at all).
All down to specific groups and how they define contributing.
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Not a good way to approach this, that's like moving the goalposts.
How exactly is it moving goalposts? The monk's inability to get through common DR like DR/good that everyone else gets through easily with their enhancement bonuses (or even weapon types/materials) has always been one of the monk's problems. That didn't stop being a thing.
You can expect every class to be geared up for everything. "If" he comes up against creatures with DR/Good then maybe he can get a boost from a spellcaster.
It is okay to accept help from spellcasters. Been that way in D&D for a long time.
So now the Cleric is always walking around with Align Weapon prepared (or, if an Oracle/Inquisitor, eating up a precious Spell Known slot), and spending their actions in combat giving one of my fists (a single casting only applies the ability to punch through DR to half the flurry attacks, remember) the ability to do... what every other martial class easily does without even blinking.
Remember that Monks, from their stated description, are meant to be the class that's adept at taking advantage of their enemies' weaknesses. Looks to me like they're the only class that can't exploit even the most basic of weaknesses.
Not a good way to approach this, that's like moving the goalposts.How exactly is it moving goalposts? The monk's inability to get through common DR like DR/good that everyone else gets through easily with their enhancement bonuses (or even weapon types/materials) has always been one of the monk's problems. That didn't stop being a thing.
You can expect every class to be geared up for everything. "If" he comes up against creatures with DR/Good then maybe he can get a boost from a spellcaster.
It is okay to accept help from spellcasters. Been that way in D&D for a long time.
So now the Cleric is always walking around with Align Weapon prepared (or, if an Oracle/Inquisitor, eating up a precious Spell Known slot), and spending their actions in combat giving one of my fists (a single casting only applies the ability to punch through DR to half the flurry attacks, remember) the ability to do... what every other martial class easily does without even blinking.
Remember that Monks, from their stated description, are meant to be the class that's adept at taking advantage of their enemies' weaknesses. Looks to me like they're the only class that can't exploit even the most basic of weaknesses.
You do realize that DR problem is a problem for any class fighting unarmed, not just Monks.
Monks can still use weapons fairly effectively.
All down to specific groups and how they define contributing.41 DPR is always better than 0 DPR so I'm not sure where you're going. Is there a specific "damage" to "hit point" ratio that should be achieved by each PC?
I get the feeling that people are expecting more from the Monk than what the designers wanted to give. I believe Monks were never ever intended to be a primary damage dealer
Hand my wizard a dagger and she'll stab things for more than 0 DPR.
Hand a level 1 Commoner a dagger and she'll stab things for more than 0 DPR. Granted, it will probably only be 0.05, but hey, that's better than 0, right?
We get it, shallowsoul, until it gets to the point where you're literally doing absolutely nothing at any time ever, you're going to feel satisfied. But not everyone else feels like "better than 0 DPR" is a reasonable standard.
So what is the Monk intended to be? Its abilities are mostly either strictly combat (such as flurry and stunning fist), or passive immunities for corner cases that can't be used actively. It's not much of a skill-monkey - 4+INT skill points per level, when INT is one of the only stats its MADness doesn't already demand a high score in, is a joke. Meanwhile, the stated purpose of the monk - take advantage of enemy weaknesses and aid allies - aren't reflected in the class features in any way (which is a shame, because those actually sound like they would have been really cool if they'd actually been done right - or, rather, done at all).
With that sort of broad definition of "contribution" it makes it effectively impossible to have a conversation geared toward logically determining whether the monk is a sufficient contributor. It's like nailing jello to a wall.
There is flavor (i.e. fluff - how does your character appear, what sorts of flourishes accompany the use of class abilities and spells...) and there are mechanics (i.e. crunch - numbers typically describing combat performance but also non-combat performance in the form of skill points and class skills, things you have to roll dice for and are needed to determine overall mission or encounter success/failure).
No one is disputing that a monk can have flavor. The question is one of mechanics. There are only so many approaches to base level mechanics which will affect the outcome of a combat:
- damage dealt (e.g. raw DPR)
- damage avoided/mitigated (e.g. AC, DR)
- self/group buffs (e.g. Bless, providing flanking, sneak attacks)
- enemy debuffs (e.g. Blind, Stunning Fist, grappling, Charm)
While the line of how much of one of those categories a class needs in order to be considered "contributing" can be fuzzy, using the existing classes as baseline studies is a reasonable starting point. Dismissing the negatives by redefining minimum levels needed for contribution to a laughably low value is not conducive to a useful discussion. Claiming that these minimums are so malleable as to resist any attempt to demarcate them is also not conducive to a useful discussion.
The fact is that the designers have stated that the core monk's mechanics need help. We do not yet know what form that help will take. The current discussion (well, any of the current monk discussions I suppose) is centered around defining among players what level of help might be needed and how far might be too far to go in offering that help.
Medusa's Wrath(Whenever you use the full-attack action and make at least one unarmed strike, you can make two additional unarmed strikes at your highest base attack bonus. These bonus attacks must be made against a dazed, flat-footed, paralyzed, staggered, stunned, or unconscious foe.)
A Monk is fighting an NPC Warrior with a Longspear.
The Monk moves into melee and provokes and gets stabbed, then attacks once.The Warrior realizes the monk has no reach and so uses the Withdraw action and backs of 20-30 feet or so.
The Monk moves into melee and provokes and gets stabbed, then attacks once.
The Warrior realizes the monk has no reach and so uses the Withdraw action and backs of 20-30 feet or so.
The Monk moves into melee and provokes and gets stabbed, then attacks once.
The Warrior realizes the monk has no reach and so uses the Withdraw action and backs of 20-30 feet or so.
The Monk moves into melee and provokes and gets stabbed, then attacks once.
The Warrior realizes the monk has no reach and so uses the Withdraw action and backs of 20-30 feet or so.
The Monk moves into melee and provokes and gets stabbed, then attacks once.
EDIT: Another thing that's bugging me about your build. Where are you getting your magic items? You are loaded with items you cannot legally purchase in core without them being randomly generated or crafted. The upper buying limits in Core in a Metropolis are 16,000 gp for magical awesomeness. Anything beyond that is a randomly generated assortment of minor, medium, and major items.
My core monk follows these rules. He has no weapon greater than a +2 enhancement, no armor greater than a +3, no stat or resistance modifier higher than a +4, and no deflection or natural item higher than a +2. How in the heck are you legally getting these? Are you assuming you have a wizard minion to craft them for you? Did you figure you'd have an Adept who would make you all your shinies? Where are you getting your items from?
It amuses me to no end you called me a cheater, and yet my core-only monk doesn't cheat and yours does. >.>
Medusa's Wrath(Whenever you use the full-attack action and make at least one unarmed strike, you can make two additional unarmed strikes at your highest base attack bonus. These bonus attacks must be made against a dazed, flat-footed, paralyzed, staggered, stunned, or unconscious foe.)A Monk is fighting an NPC Warrior with a Longspear.
The Monk moves into melee and provokes and gets stabbed, then attacks once.
The Warrior realizes the monk has no reach and so uses the Withdraw action and backs of 20-30 feet or so.
The Monk moves into melee and provokes and gets stabbed, then attacks once.
The Warrior realizes the monk has no reach and so uses the Withdraw action and backs of 20-30 feet or so.
The Monk moves into melee and provokes and gets stabbed, then attacks once.
The Warrior realizes the monk has no reach and so uses the Withdraw action and backs of 20-30 feet or so.
The Monk moves into melee and provokes and gets stabbed, then attacks once.
The Warrior realizes the monk has no reach and so uses the Withdraw action and backs of 20-30 feet or so.
The Monk moves into melee and provokes and gets stabbed, then attacks once.
Well i guess it's a good thing the monk doesn't have a chance to stun the warrior with Stunning Fist.
The Monk also doesn't have a chance to use acrobatics to not provoke and i guess i couldn't just use a ranged weapon until the warrior comes to attack me and then 5ft step to Flurry.
I guess the monk will just have to continue using the same idiotic move turn after turn.
Oh, wait i forgot the monk doesn't have to be as stupid as you think.
Medusa's Wrath(Whenever you use the full-attack action and make at least one unarmed strike, you can make two additional unarmed strikes at your highest base attack bonus. These bonus attacks must be made against a dazed, flat-footed, paralyzed, staggered, stunned, or unconscious foe.)A Monk is fighting an NPC Warrior with a Longspear.
The Monk moves into melee and provokes and gets stabbed, then attacks once.
The Warrior realizes the monk has no reach and so uses the Withdraw action and backs of 20-30 feet or so.
The Monk moves into melee and provokes and gets stabbed, then attacks once.
The Warrior realizes the monk has no reach and so uses the Withdraw action and backs of 20-30 feet or so.
The Monk moves into melee and provokes and gets stabbed, then attacks once.
The Warrior realizes the monk has no reach and so uses the Withdraw action and backs of 20-30 feet or so.
The Monk moves into melee and provokes and gets stabbed, then attacks once.
The Warrior realizes the monk has no reach and so uses the Withdraw action and backs of 20-30 feet or so.
The Monk moves into melee and provokes and gets stabbed, then attacks once.
The Warrior realizes the monk has no reach and so uses the Withdraw action and backs off of the cliff and falls to his death.
The Monk jumps down, slowing his fall and loots the body.
Nice order of the stick reference. On a side note, it also assumes the warrior doesn't have a very cheap and widely popular ring, or wouldn't just survive the fall anyway. Unless it was a particularly big cliff, he can probably survive it at 13th level.
EDIT: Another thing that's bugging me about your build. Where are you getting your magic items? You are loaded with items you cannot legally purchase in core without them being randomly generated or crafted. The upper buying limits in Core in a Metropolis are 16,000 gp for magical awesomeness. Anything beyond that is a randomly generated assortment of minor, medium, and major items.
My core monk follows these rules. He has no weapon greater than a +2 enhancement, no armor greater than a +3, no stat or resistance modifier higher than a +4, and no deflection or natural item higher than a +2. How in the heck are you legally getting these? Are you assuming you have a wizard minion to craft them for you? Did you figure you'd have an Adept who would make you all your shinies? Where are you getting your items from?
It amuses me to no end...
This coming from the person who states that with 17,640 gold you can get +5 inherent bonuses to all stats.
Yeah, but my build is ridiculous.
Medusa's Wrath(Whenever you use the full-attack action and make at least one unarmed strike, you can make two additional unarmed strikes at your highest base attack bonus. These bonus attacks must be made against a dazed, flat-footed, paralyzed, staggered, stunned, or unconscious foe.)A Monk is fighting an NPC Warrior with a Longspear.
The Monk moves into melee and provokes and gets stabbed, then attacks once.
The Warrior realizes the monk has no reach and so uses the Withdraw action and backs of 20-30 feet or so.
The Monk moves into melee and provokes and gets stabbed, then attacks once.
The Warrior realizes the monk has no reach and so uses the Withdraw action and backs of 20-30 feet or so.
The Monk moves into melee and provokes and gets stabbed, then attacks once.
The Warrior realizes the monk has no reach and so uses the Withdraw action and backs of 20-30 feet or so.
The Monk moves into melee and provokes and gets stabbed, then attacks once.
The Warrior realizes the monk has no reach and so uses the Withdraw action and backs of 20-30 feet or so.
The Monk moves into melee and provokes and gets stabbed, then attacks once.
Well i guess it's a good thing the monk doesn't have a chance to stun the warrior with Stunning Fist.
The Monk also doesn't have a chance to use acrobatics to not provoke and i guess i couldn't just use a ranged weapon until the warrior comes to attack me and then 5ft step to Flurry.
I guess the monk will just have to continue using the same idiotic move turn after turn.
Oh, wait i forgot the monk doesn't have to be as stupid as you think.
Nope. But he does have to full attack to get his pseudo-BAB, it doesn't apply on AoOs, and Gorgon's Fist is meaningless without it. As noted before, fighting an enemy with strong AC and strong Fortitude means successfully landing a stunning fist is difficult. Even more difficult without lots of awesome shiny objects that he can't legally get in core without the dice gods favoring him in the extreme.
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It's clear RAW, and has a place in optimization discussion regardless of your opinion of the strategy. Move on and stop clogging the thread with your complaints.
EDIT: Another thing that's bugging me about your build. Where are you getting your magic items? You are loaded with items you cannot legally purchase in core without them being randomly generated or crafted. The upper buying limits in Core in a Metropolis are 16,000 gp for magical awesomeness. Anything beyond that is a randomly generated assortment of minor, medium, and major items.
My core monk follows these rules. He has no weapon greater than a +2 enhancement, no armor greater than a +3, no stat or resistance modifier higher than a +4, and no deflection or natural item higher than a +2. How in the heck are you legally getting these? Are you assuming you have a wizard minion to craft them for you? Did you figure you'd have an Adept who would make you all your shinies? Where are you getting your items from?
It amuses me to no end...
This coming from the person who states that with 17,640 gold you can get +5 inherent bonuses to all stats.
Yeah, but my build is ridiculous.
No your build is illegal. My build is core. You broke the rules you told me to follow, and I did not. Simple as that. Having a +3 amulet of mighty fists purchased is illegal, simple as that. And it's a HUGE impact on how well your monk functions because it allows you to bypass any material DR (which I actually prepared for instead of breaking the rules). EDIT: Your belt of strength +6 is also illegal (a 36,000 gp item). EDIT 2: I'll make this simple. With the magic item GP limits of 16,000 gp, you should be able to purchase in good faith any mundane armor or weapon plus up to 16,000 gp worth of enhancements, any mundane weapon plus up to 16,000 gp worth of enhancements, any 16,000 gp rings, wondrous items, scrolls, wands, potions, or whatever.
It's clear RAW, and has a place in optimization discussion regardless of your opinion of the strategy. Move on and stop clogging the thread with your complaints.
We are not really talking about optimization.
Otherwise, move on and stop clogging the thread with your complaints about my complaints.
It's clear RAW, and has a place in optimization discussion regardless of your opinion of the strategy. Move on and stop clogging the thread with your complaints.We are not really talking about optimization.
Otherwise, move on and stop clogging the thread with your complaints about my complaints.
Sure we are. And now we're bickering like children as to whose being more unfair. The guy who used spellcasting services given in the core equipment rules - which quite honestly say that the services of 6th level spells are available in a large city - to reduce his MAD and improve his survivability, or the guy who buys items he cannot legally buy to ignore critical weaknesses of his build, such as damage reduction.
Frankly I wouldn't even be calling you out on it, except you decided to call me a cheater and referring to my core monk with terms like "b%$*!*#+".
EDIT: Here's a bit of advice. You could get greater magic fist + permanency to help you out. If you got it at caster level 17-20 then it might not get dispelled, and would be tons cheaper than an amulet of mighty fists. Of course you still have to deal with damage reductions, but you technically would anyway if you were relying on a amulet of mighty fists, as the most expensive one you can legally buy in core is +1.
Does that suck? Yes it sucks. Welcome to Monksville. Population: We.
EDIT: Another thing that's bugging me about your build. Where are you getting your magic items? You are loaded with items you cannot legally purchase in core without them being randomly generated or crafted. The upper buying limits in Core in a Metropolis are 16,000 gp for magical awesomeness. Anything beyond that is a randomly generated assortment of minor, medium, and major items.
My core monk follows these rules. He has no weapon greater than a +2 enhancement, no armor greater than a +3, no stat or resistance modifier higher than a +4, and no deflection or natural item higher than a +2. How in the heck are you legally getting these? Are you assuming you have a wizard minion to craft them for you? Did you figure you'd have an Adept who would make you all your shinies? Where are you getting your items from?
It amuses me to no end...
This coming from the person who states that with 17,640 gold you can get +5 inherent bonuses to all stats.
Yeah, but my build is ridiculous.
No your build is illegal. My build is core. You broke the rules you told me to follow, and I did not. Simple as that. Having a +3 amulet of mighty fists purchased is illegal, simple as that. And it's a HUGE impact on how well your monk functions because it allows you to bypass any material DR (which I actually prepared for instead of breaking the rules). EDIT: Your belt of strength +6 is also illegal (a 36,000 gp item).
Do you even bother to read the rules or for that matter what we were even discussing.
By RAW when making a 13th character i have 140,000 gold to spend.
By RAW i'm allowed to spend up to 50% of my wealth on a single item when creating a character above 1st, which i was.
In the thread Wraithstrike set these rules:
20 Point Buy
140,000 gold
Can spend 33% wealth on a single item.(Here is a hint 33% of 140,000 gold is 46,200 gold
Either Core Build or use UM, UC, APG.
My most expensive item was 45,000 gold. My build is legal. You are just trying to unsuccessfully pick it apart.
EDIT: Another thing that's bugging me about your build. Where are you getting your magic items? You are loaded with items you cannot legally purchase in core without them being randomly generated or crafted. The upper buying limits in Core in a Metropolis are 16,000 gp for magical awesomeness. Anything beyond that is a randomly generated assortment of minor, medium, and major items.
My core monk follows these rules. He has no weapon greater than a +2 enhancement, no armor greater than a +3, no stat or resistance modifier higher than a +4, and no deflection or natural item higher than a +2. How in the heck are you legally getting these? Are you assuming you have a wizard minion to craft them for you? Did you figure you'd have an Adept who would make you all your shinies? Where are you getting your items from?
It amuses me to no end...
This coming from the person who states that with 17,640 gold you can get +5 inherent bonuses to all stats.
Yeah, but my build is ridiculous.
No your build is illegal. My build is core. You broke the rules you told me to follow, and I did not. Simple as that. Having a +3 amulet of mighty fists purchased is illegal, simple as that. And it's a HUGE impact on how well your monk functions because it allows you to bypass any material DR (which I actually prepared for instead of breaking the rules). EDIT: Your belt of strength +6 is also illegal (a 36,000 gp item).
Do you even bother to read the rules or for that matter what we were even discussing.
By RAW when making a 13th character i have 140,000 gold to spend.
** spoiler omitted **...
And I'm calling BS because you still have to spend it and there are rules that determine what you can spend it ON. The core rules state that the standard game allows you to more or less freely purchase up to 16,000 gp in magic items. So you can totally spend 140,000 gp (I did) but just because you have money and are not spending more than a certain % of that money does not mean you get to ignore the other natural laws of the game.
EDIT: I followed the rules and you ignored them. I'm now challenging your build because it's illegal and you have purchased items that you cannot legally purchase in core without sheer random chance or the GM using fiat to drop a +3 amulet and +6 enhancement bonus into the game at 13th level, when a CR 3 enemy with TRIPLE treasure can't even carry one.
It's clear RAW, and has a place in optimization discussion regardless of your opinion of the strategy. Move on and stop clogging the thread with your complaints.We are not really talking about optimization.
Otherwise, move on and stop clogging the thread with your complaints about my complaints.
Sure we are. And now we're bickering like children as to whose being more unfair. The guy who used spellcasting services given in the core equipment rules - which quite honestly say that the services of 6th level spells are available in a large city - to reduce his MAD and improve his survivability, or the guy who buys items he cannot legally buy to ignore critical weaknesses of his build, such as damage reduction.
Frankly I wouldn't even be calling you out on it, except you decided to call me a cheater and referring to my core monk with terms like "b@#!#%!%".
EDIT: Here's a bit of advice. You could get greater magic fist + permanency to help you out. If you got it at caster level 17-20 then it might not get dispelled, and would be tons cheaper than an amulet of mighty fists. Of course you still have to deal with damage reductions, but you technically would anyway if you were relying on a amulet of mighty fists, as the most expensive one you can legally buy in core is +1.
Does that suck? Yes it sucks. Welcome to Monksville. Population: We.
Oh i'm sorry did i offend. I didn't realize using using loopholes to get +5 to all stats for under 18,000 gold was standard practice for most games.
I didn't make anything that was illegal by RAW.
I simply mentioned that your tactic seemed a bit like cheating. That's my opinion. Your loophole allows +5 to all six stats for almost no gold required compared to other avenues of getting those stats.
It didn't help that the builds you posted didn't even have correct math.
And I'm calling BS because you still have to spend it and there are rules that determine what you can spend it ON. The core rules state that the standard game allows you to more or less freely purchase up to 16,000 gp in magic items. So you can totally spend 140,000 gp (I did) but just...EDIT: Another thing that's bugging me about your build. Where are you getting your magic items? You are loaded with items you cannot legally purchase in core without them being randomly generated or crafted. The upper buying limits in Core in a Metropolis are 16,000 gp for magical awesomeness. Anything beyond that is a randomly generated assortment of minor, medium, and major items.
My core monk follows these rules. He has no weapon greater than a +2 enhancement, no armor greater than a +3, no stat or resistance modifier higher than a +4, and no deflection or natural item higher than a +2. How in the heck are you legally getting these? Are you assuming you have a wizard minion to craft them for you? Did you figure you'd have an Adept who would make you all your shinies? Where are you getting your items from?
It amuses me to no end...
This coming from the person who states that with 17,640 gold you can get +5 inherent bonuses to all stats.
Yeah, but my build is ridiculous.
No your build is illegal. My build is core. You broke the rules you told me to follow, and I did not. Simple as that. Having a +3 amulet of mighty fists purchased is illegal, simple as that. And it's a HUGE impact on how well your monk functions because it allows you to bypass any material DR (which I actually prepared for instead of breaking the rules). EDIT: Your belt of strength +6 is also illegal (a 36,000 gp item).
Do you even bother to read the rules or for that matter what we were even discussing.
By RAW when making a 13th character i have 140,000 gold to spend.
** spoiler omitted **...
The rules for Settlements are an entirely optional rule that doesn't even have to be used by the Gamemaster.
Presented below are basic rules for a more streamlined method of handling settlements in your game. Essentially, these rules treat settlements almost as characters of their own, complete with stat blocks. Using these rules, you can generate the vital data for a settlement quickly and efficiently, and with this data you can handle the majority of your players' interactions with the settlement.
Note that for particularly large cities, you can use multiple settlement stat blocks to represent different districts within a city. This allows you to have neighborhoods with distinct characteristics inside one city's walls. GMs should feel free to add other new elements to create the cities they desire. A Settlement Sheet is included in the back of this book to record the details of your own settlements.
It requires a GM to decide how and what exists. I prefer when making builds to just use the rules like i did.
Sure in your game the GM might strictly adhere to this guide. BUt in others they might not even use it.
In your game it's okay to purchase +5 to all statrs for 17,640 gold. In some game it's not.
Lets just stick with the baseline,okay.
Oh i'm sorry did i offend. I didn't realize using using loopholes to get +5 to all stats for under 18,000 gold was standard practice for most games.It's clear RAW, and has a place in optimization discussion regardless of your opinion of the strategy. Move on and stop clogging the thread with your complaints.We are not really talking about optimization.
Otherwise, move on and stop clogging the thread with your complaints about my complaints.
Sure we are. And now we're bickering like children as to whose being more unfair. The guy who used spellcasting services given in the core equipment rules - which quite honestly say that the services of 6th level spells are available in a large city - to reduce his MAD and improve his survivability, or the guy who buys items he cannot legally buy to ignore critical weaknesses of his build, such as damage reduction.
Frankly I wouldn't even be calling you out on it, except you decided to call me a cheater and referring to my core monk with terms like "b@#!#%!%".
EDIT: Here's a bit of advice. You could get greater magic fist + permanency to help you out. If you got it at caster level 17-20 then it might not get dispelled, and would be tons cheaper than an amulet of mighty fists. Of course you still have to deal with damage reductions, but you technically would anyway if you were relying on a amulet of mighty fists, as the most expensive one you can legally buy in core is +1.
Does that suck? Yes it sucks. Welcome to Monksville. Population: We.
Like apparently outright ignoring the rules is standard practice in yours?
I didn't make anything that was illegal by RAW.
Except that you cannot purchase magic items greater than 16,000 gp on demand.
I simply mentioned that your tactic seemed a bit like cheating. That's my opinion. Your loophole allows +5 to all six stats for almost no gold required compared to other avenues of getting those stats.
And your tactic is 100% cheating, no seeming about it. I used a method that was legal and more efficient (but still damn expensive) to get my +2.5 modifiers to my stats. You're outright cheating to bypass damage reductions and inflate your to-hit chances.
It didn't help that the builds you posted didn't even have correct math.
You keep saying that, but you haven't shown what was in error. I went back and edited in something that I forgot about and made a declaration of it. If you're talking about my slingshot dealing 1d3+3 damage it's 'cause I was throwing ROCKS out of it; and I was upgrading it from 1st, to 5th, to 13th; and was using a calculator to speed up HP calculations using averages. So if you wanna throw out the terrible math you're talking about, go for it. I WANT you to tell me where I made a mistake so I can FIX IT.
Purchasing Magic Items
Table: Available Magic Items Community Size Base Value Minor Medium Major
Thorp 50 gp 1d4 items — —
Hamlet 200 gp 1d6 items — —
Village 500 gp 2d4 items 1d4 items —
Small town 1,000 gp 3d4 items 1d6 items —
Large town 2,000 gp 3d4 items 2d4 items 1d4 items
Small city 4,000 gp 4d4 items 3d4 items 1d6 items
Large city 8,000 gp 4d4 items 3d4 items 2d4 items
Metropolis 16,000 gp * 4d4 items 3d4 items
* in a metropolis, nearly all minor magic items are available.Magic items are valuable, and most major cities have at least one or two purveyors of magic items, from a simple potion merchant to a weapon smith that specializes in magic swords. Of course, not every item in this book is available in every town.
The following guidelines are presented to help GMs determine what items are available in a given community. These guidelines assume a setting with an average level of magic. Some cities might deviate wildly from these baselines, subject to GM discretion. The GM should keep a list of what items are available from each merchant and should replenish the stocks on occasion to represent new acquisitions.
The number and types of magic items available in a community depend upon its size. Each community has a base value associated with it (see Table: Available Magic Items). There is a 75% chance that any item of that value or lower can be found for sale with little effort in that community. In addition, the community has a number of other items for sale. These items are randomly determined and are broken down by category (minor, medium, or major). After determining the number of items available in each category, refer to Table: Random Magic Item Generation to determine the type of each item (potion, scroll, ring, weapon, etc.) before moving on to the individual charts to determine the exact item. Reroll any items that fall below the community's base value.
If you are running a campaign with low magic, reduce the base value and the number of items in each community by half. Campaigns with little or no magic might not have magic items for sale at all. GMs running these sorts of campaigns should make some adjustments to the challenges faced by the characters due to their lack of magic gear.
Campaigns with an abundance of magic items might have communities with twice the listed base value and random items available. Alternatively, all communities might count as one size category larger for the purposes of what items are available. In a campaign with very common magic, all magic items might be available for purchase in a metropolis.
Nonmagical items and gear are generally available in a community of any size unless the item is particularly expensive, such as full plate, or made of an unusual material, such as an adamantine longsword. These items should follow the base value guidelines to determine their availability, subject to GM discretion.
Assuming no GM-fiat/discretion is involved and we are talking standards, these are the core rules for purchasing magic items, listed in the magic items chapter.
EDIT: So as I said. I didn't break the rules. I have no magic effect worth more than 16,000 gp on my character. You can either whine about it or fix it or stop giving me crap for actually following the rules with my core monk. Thanks.
Now with the rogue, you are assuming you are going to get Sneak Attack every round which may not be the case.
Doesn't have to be every round to be useful, and rogues generally don't have that much difficulty getting a flanking position.
Also, there is nothing wrong with a 50% to hit rate, it's not the best but it's not the worst.
When everyone else is getting 75% it's a problem, because that's where the enemy will be scaled. 75% with your first attack means 50% with your second and 25% with the third. 50% with the first means 25% with the second and 5% with the third. It goes from 1/3 more hits to twice the hits, thanks to iterative attacks.
41 DPR is always better than 0 DPR so I'm not sure where you're going. Is there a specific "damage" to "hit point" ratio that should be achieved by each PC?
What, so if you can out-punch a commoner you must be OK? It's down to relative contributions.
I get the feeling that people are expecting more from the Monk than what the designers wanted to give. I believe Monks were never ever intended to be a primary damage dealer
If the designers wanted to give a combat class the nerf that it can't effectively engage in combat when compared to the other combat classes, then that's probably true. If they meant for the monk to be effective, but just not quite as effective as the other combat classes to make up for their other advantages, then I'd say they have some work to do.
You can expect every class to be geared up for everything. "If" he comes up against creatures with DR/Good then maybe he can get a boost from a spellcaster.
As you go up levels, you will face DR more and more frequently, so it's reasonable to ask about it. Plus, there's accepting help from a spellcaster and needing help from a spellcaster. The first is par for the course, the second implies something has gone a bit wrong in most cases.
Well at this level he does have self heal, not much but something. I still have a few feats to select and I could sacrifice some Int, take a cut in some skills and gain a higher strength if I wanted. Typical AC for 10th level creatures is around 24 so that's 50% with my +14 attacks.
Every character can self-heal with a potion, which is about the usefulness of Wholeness of Body. You can't reasonably do either when fighting something.
Like I said, your attack chances at this level are low compared to what a full combat class would have (10 BAB + 6 Str/Dex +1 feat + 3 weapon = +20 on average) so they are hitting 75% of the time. While they will usually a get a hit in every round, you will have 'flurry of miss' rounds. This isn't just about damage, it's about hitting and your monk is weak at it.
One thing I will say is that it's not good to critique a build by looking at it first and then choosing specific monsters with specific abilities that can hurt the class or shut it down, you can do that with any class. We don't even know if the Monk will come up against those types of creatures so that's not really being fair to the class. Don't forget that there are also bonuses for flanking and party buffs from other classes.
You don't know that you will come up against any given creature, it's true, but you also do not know that you won't either. You need to look at how effective you are against a spectrum of creatures compared to the other combat classes. I mentioned the devil because it's something that happened to me in a game, several times. Creatures with alignment DR will be out there and you can meet them sooner or later. They are a good example of creatures the monk is weak against, if not ineffective. There are other creatures the monk will be effective against, some they will be ineffective gainst, however I don't think you will find something the monk is more effective against than another combat class save as a corner case.
You do realize that DR problem is a problem for any class fighting unarmed, not just Monks.Except that all other combat classes get:
- Abilities that boost damage to beat the DR
- Cheaper enhancement on primary weapons to bypass DR through enhancement and/or properties, so they can beat the same DR at an earlier level
- Some abilities that also bypass DR (added enhancement on the magus' weapon, smite evil etc.)
Monks can still use weapons fairly effectively.Two problems with this:
- Can they afford a fully enhanced weapon AND an amulet of mighty fists?
- Monk weapons are awful.
Here you go Ashiel i listed all the problems i could find. Some are more concerns than actually math error. The problem is listed in bold and they go in descending order starting at the top of your 1st build and going down.
1. "Melee staff +4 (1d6+6/x3, double)" Staff is x2 crit
2. "sling +3 (1d3+3/x2)" Using rocks reduces sling attack by -1, should be +2
3. "Hp 37(5d8+15)" Average health is done wrong. Should be base 8 for first level plus 4d8(average 4.5x4=18) plus 5 favored hp plus 5 toughness plus Con 3x5=15=51.
4. "mwk staff +8 (1d6+6/x3)" should be x2 again
5. "mwk gauntlet +8 (1d8+4)" Gauntlets only do 1d3 damage. A Monk's unarmed damage doesn't increase it.
6. "sling +6 (1d3+3/x2)" should be +5 since you get -1 attack for using rocks.
7. "Hp 166 (5d8+104)" Should be 13d8. Otherwise fine.
8/9. "+1 silver gauntlet +21/+11 (2d6+10)" Should be +20/+10 and the damage should be 1d3.
10. "Str 30 (28), Dex 21, Con 23 (21), Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 12" Up to GM fiat if will work or not, would most likely be about 5 lower across the board in your average game. Not bashing just stating that in your average game this isn't happening.
11. " CMD 38" Should actually be 42. Forgot +1 dodge, +2 deflection and +1 insight.
12. "+3 mithral breastplate (19,200 gp)" Using your own logic this thing is above the 16,000 gold cap for an item.(Silly ain't it.)
13. "+4 strength gloves" Should be Belt of Giant Strength(+4)
14. "spellcasting services (17,640 gp)" I thought i'd also mention that this assumes that the spellcaster in question beat every check during the binding to get wishes.
I don't have a problem with monks being as dependent on gear as other classes, I just don't like that they are presented as less dependent, and yet just end up more dependent on rarer, more expensive gear instead - and then still do not measure up.
Brain in a Jar wrote:
You do realize that DR problem is a problem for any class fighting unarmed, not just Monks.
Except that all other combat classes get:Abilities that boost damage to beat the DR
Cheaper enhancement on primary weapons to bypass DR through enhancement and/or properties, so they can beat the same DR at an earlier level
Some abilities that also bypass DR (added enhancement on the magus' weapon, smite evil etc.)
Brain in a Jar wrote:
Monks can still use weapons fairly effectively.
Two problems with this:Can they afford a fully enhanced weapon AND an amulet of mighty fists?
Monk weapons are awful.
I was speaking of other classes who fight unarmed. A monk using monk weapons has the same difficulty in bypassing DR as any other two-weapon fighter.
A Monk or any class fighting Unarmed have more of a problem dealing with DR when fighting Unarmed.
...Purchasing Magic Items
Table: Available Magic Items Community Size Base Value Minor Medium Major
Thorp 50 gp 1d4 items — —
Hamlet 200 gp 1d6 items — —
Village 500 gp 2d4 items 1d4 items —
Small town 1,000 gp 3d4 items 1d6 items —
Large town 2,000 gp 3d4 items 2d4 items 1d4 items
Small city 4,000 gp 4d4 items 3d4 items 1d6 items
Large city 8,000 gp 4d4 items 3d4 items 2d4 items
Metropolis 16,000 gp * 4d4 items 3d4 items
* in a metropolis, nearly all minor magic items are available.Magic items are valuable, and most major cities have at least one or two purveyors of magic items, from a simple potion merchant to a weapon smith that specializes in magic swords. Of course, not every item in this book is available in every town.
The following guidelines are presented to help GMs determine what items are available in a given community. These guidelines assume a setting with an average level of magic. Some cities might deviate wildly from these baselines, subject to GM discretion. The GM should keep a list of what items are available from each merchant and should replenish the stocks on occasion to represent new acquisitions.
The number and types of magic items available in a community depend upon its size. Each community has a base value associated with it (see Table: Available Magic Items). There is a 75% chance that any item of that value or lower can be found for sale with little effort in that community. In addition, the community has a number of other items for sale. These items are randomly determined and are broken down by category (minor, medium, or major). After determining the number of items available in each category, refer to Table: Random Magic Item Generation to determine the type of each item (potion, scroll, ring, weapon, etc.) before moving on to the individual charts to determine the exact item. Reroll any items that fall below the community's base value.
If you are running a campaign with low magic,
IT even says it in the stuff you posted. Lol.
"The following guidelines are presented to help GMs determine what items are available in a given community. These guidelines assume a setting with an average level of magic. Some cities might deviate wildly from these baselines, subject to GM discretion. The GM should keep a list of what items are available from each merchant and should replenish the stocks on occasion to represent new acquisitions."
They are just guidelines to help a GM not a hard fast rule Ashiel.
Here you go Ashiel i listed all the problems i could find. Some are more concerns than actually math error. The problem is listed in bold and they go in descending order starting at the top of your 1st build and going down.
1. "Melee staff +4 (1d6+6/x3, double)" Staff is x2 crit
2. "sling +3 (1d3+3/x2)" Using rocks reduces sling attack by -1, should be +2
3. "Hp 37(5d8+15)" Average health is done wrong. Should be base 8 for first level plus 4d8(average 4.5x4=18) plus 5 favored hp plus 5 toughness plus Con 3x5=15=51.
4. "mwk staff +8 (1d6+6/x3)" should be x2 again
5. "mwk gauntlet +8 (1d8+4)" Gauntlets only do 1d3 damage. A Monk's unarmed damage doesn't increase it.
6. "sling +6 (1d3+3/x2)" should be +5 since you get -1 attack for using rocks.
7. "Hp 166 (5d8+104)" Should be 13d8. Otherwise fine.
8/9. "+1 silver gauntlet +21/+11 (2d6+10)" Should be +20/+10 and the damage should be 1d3.
10. "Str 30 (28), Dex 21, Con 23 (21), Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 12" Up to GM fiat if will work or not, would most likely be about 5 lower across the board in your average game. Not bashing just stating that in your average game this isn't happening.
11. " CMD 38" Should actually be 42. Forgot +1 dodge, +2 deflection and +1 insight.
12. "+3 mithral breastplate (19,200 gp)" Using your own logic this thing is above the 16,000 gold cap for an item.(Silly ain't it.)
13. "+4 strength gloves" Should be Belt of Giant Strength(+4)
14. "spellcasting services (17,640 gp)" I thought i'd also mention that this assumes that the spellcaster in question beat every check during the binding to get wishes.
Ahhh. So basically copy-paste errors for the most part. It appears I missed something when converting the spear to a quarterstaff at first level (given that I didn't do any damage calculations based on that level that used the crit multiplier, no harm done). Hit die bit is from copy/pasting and leveling (I fixed the HP but forgot to mod the HD number). As I said before, I had decided half way through that building the monk more traditionally was only resulting in a character that wouldn't survive until 13th level.
My bad on the sling. I was thinking smaller size and -1 to damage rolls, but it was to hit rolls. +5 it is, but the damage goes up by +1 as well. Thanks.
Gauntlet damage is correct. Read the gauntlet equipment section. It merely changes your unarmed strike damage to lethal. 1d3 is normal unarmed strike damage. Monk class feature increases this damage. This is not in error, it has not been errata'd, it is in the PRD, don't whine at me about this.
Gloves vs Boots are irrelevant. It's still a +4 item at 16,000 gp using the core rules.
I suppose this is what I get for going back half-way through and trying to retro-mod stuff to a changed build. My initial build sported a 14 Wisdom at 1st level. Realized it was deterimental to my Monk's survial about mid-way through, went back and modded, and missed. I am only human.
Concerning the mithral breastplate, the mithral breastplate itself is mundane and available. The costs to have it enhanced are within magic item purchase guidelines. If you wanna argue it, then I'll just drop it to a +2 mithral breastplate and still have more AC and more money for consumables.
I was speaking of other classes who fight unarmed. A monk using monk weapons has the same difficulty in bypassing DR as any other two-weapon fighter.
How many base classes (not archetypes) are oriented around fighting unarmed? So basically, just the monk then.
A Monk or any class fighting Unarmed have more of a problem dealing with DR when fighting Unarmed.
Exactly. As this is the primary weapon form for the monk, it surely needs addressing for that class. What's the point in giving a combat class a nerfed weapon?