Yep. And you're complaining about derails.
The two barbarian levels are the first levels the character took, and if your alignment changes to lawful all you lose is Rage. What strikes you as not kosher about that?
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Yep. And you're complaining about derails.
The two barbarian levels are the first levels the character took, and if your alignment changes to lawful all you lose is Rage. What strikes you as not kosher about that?
Probably because in a comparison of what is good or bad about the core monk and how, if bad, it might be fixed, it an be assumed it is a discussion concerning leveling purely in the class discussed with no adulteration of other classes or PrCs.
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i was thinking of the Ifriti Malik, those are CR10. forgot the standard was CR 8.
it can also be argued that the DC for identifiying an Ifriti can go up or down by 5 based on the notability and commonality of the occurences.
using Golarion as an example. most of the Keleshite people of Quadira know plenty about genies, either through frequent stories (DC5+CR) or have personally witnessed one (automatically know a few traits they witnessed)
while the people of the land of the linnorm kings are so far north, that quadiran stories don't really travel, though they have an easier time identifying giants (5+CR) they have a harder time identifying genies (15+CR) and probably haven't heard of an Ifriti beyond what scholars have read about them. that is what the Ad Hoc DC modifiers in the CRB are for.
I will say that in my games, you have to have an "in game" reason as to why your Wizard suddenly thought of an Ifriti. I don't run Knowledges to where whatever you "the player" thinks of, you then ask the DM to allow you a Knowledge check to see if your PC can know the same thing. Unless I present you with the books and lore "in game" or you have actually met one "in game" then you aren't making a Knowledge check to suddenly see if you've known about them the whole time.
Ever wonder why Knowledge DC's are so easy to make? I think it's because the whole transfer of player knowledge to PC knowledge via a roll on the dice isn't what was intended in the games design.
Probably because in a comparison of what is good or bad about the core monk and how, if bad, it might be fixed, it an be assumed it is a discussion concerning leveling purely in the class discussed with no adulteration of other classes or PrCs.Yep. And you're complaining about derails.
The two barbarian levels are the first levels the character took, and if your alignment changes to lawful all you lose is Rage. What strikes you as not kosher about that?
If you think that my non-core monk doesn't demonstrate some truths about the class you're dead wrong. There's a lot and I do mean a lot of things to be said about the monk that I am perfectly willing to say.
1) They are not good at low level survivability (I fixed this with multiclassing).
2) They are horribly MAD and their Wisdom doesn't do enough for them to matter (I fixed this by wearing armor and having an average Wisdom).
3) Their speed buffs do not stack with the premier martial buff (I "fixed" this by going with barbarian movement instead).
4) They are horribly vulnerable to effects that rob them of their dexterity and dodge bonuses (Hence why I absolutely wanted Uncanny Dodge).
5) Their average BAB with no way to buff themselves (the solution was I have 5 levels is perfect BAB classes plus weapon training plus dueling gloves to restore balance to the non-casting caster).
6) That with the option to use gauntlets (which is currently legal despite whining about how they might maybe sometime nerf it in the future rather than leaving it as it has been for the past 3 editions and the core rulebook) they are somewhat functional at overcoming damage reductions and getting much needed unarmed buffs (though if someone pried the gauntlets off my monk I'd instead get multiple layers of permanency + greater magic fang, but the downside is DR would tear her apart and I'd have to go to fighting with shield bashes instead).
7) Monks are a great dipper class. Either monk prime with martial dips or martial prime with monk dips. Either way, single class monk is a trap.
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The the argument of a monk-barbarian shows someone hasn't read the rules it seems. Or understand what fluff is. Or ever seen a barbarian punch somebody I guess. The Barbarian class can do "Samurai" as a concept pretty darn well. This character is a fairly generic warrior at first who loses her rage and finds inner peace through martial arts. However, by 20th level she will have learned how to balance her yin and yang emotions on the edge of a knife and will return to being able to Rage, complete with her new understanding gained through inner focus.
In game terms she begins Neutral, becomes Lawful Neutral, then eventually returns to Neutral again after she has nothing more to learn from her Monk side.
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And, for what it's worth, with gauntlets treated like weapons, you may not have a hand free for Crane Riposte. (Also, is ignoring Wisdom a good idea for a build that's relying pretty heavily on Snake Style?)
Are you going to start arguing that wearing gauntlets means you have no hands free to carry a sword? Really? Really? ಠ_ಠ
Gauntlet: This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack. The cost and weight given are for a single gauntlet. Medium and heavy armors (except breastplate) come with gauntlets. Your opponent cannot use a disarm action to disarm you of gauntlets.
Gauntlets are not held, they are worn (unless you plan to randomly slap someone with a metal glove like Buggs Bunny, thanks Catch Off Guard!). If a gauntlet is the same as carrying a weapon in your hand, then that means that anyone wearing Medium or Heavy Armors (except breastplates) cannot wield swords, axes, knives, bows, carry torches, hold shields, and so forth. Gauntlets are gloves worn that modify your unarmed strike. They do not fill up your hands or prevent you from having a free hand to use a feat or weapon.
If you want to argue that wearing a glove that doesn't specifically say you no longer have a free hand means you don't then I swear to God I don't ever want to hear another person complain about me citing rules on their specific declarations again, and I imagine magic gloves and gauntlets and medium and heavy armor would become very unpopular very quickly.
(Also, is ignoring Wisdom a good idea for a build that's relying pretty heavily on Snake Style?)
Snake style allows me to substitute a Sense Motive check in the place of my AC or touch AC as an immediate action versus 1 attack. Focusing too heavily turns me into a one-trick pony that just means I would dodge 1 attack and then get murdered on everything else. No, Snake Style's Sense Motive dodge is for one thing and one thing only -- avoiding a touch attack. See, my character's AC is quite stellar (38 AC) and her touch AC isn't bad, but at 13th level with no items or buffs invested and an average wisdom she has a +19 Sense Motive, which is higher than many tank touch-ACs at this level.
The point is simple. If a wizard pops a ray attack at me (say enervation or maximized persistent disintegrate) then my character will take the snake dodge. The touch AC generated versus the attack is anywhere from 20-39, more than likely allowing her to dodge pesky rays, or nets, or perhaps even tanglefoot bags.
While I don't necessarily agree with Ashiel's design philosophy, opinion on haste, and such grey areas as use of genie wishes, gauntlets etc. I have to admit he has proved a point in that a monk wearing armour and using non-monk weapons hasn't exactly lost much. It begs the question if those abilities are not worth more than the sacrifice, what good are they?
The comment was made before that MAD classes tend to reward the investor in them, but it clearly just isn't true of the monk.
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The best monk I ever played was a paladin9/zen-archer1...
Probably because in a comparison of what is good or bad about the core monk and how, if bad, it might be fixed, it an be assumed it is a discussion concerning leveling purely in the class discussed with no adulteration of other classes or PrCs.Yep. And you're complaining about derails.
The two barbarian levels are the first levels the character took, and if your alignment changes to lawful all you lose is Rage. What strikes you as not kosher about that?
If you think that my non-core monk doesn't demonstrate some truths about the class you're dead wrong. There's a lot and I do mean a lot of things to be said about the monk that I am perfectly willing to say.
1) They are not good at low level survivability (I fixed this with multiclassing).
2) They are horribly MAD and their Wisdom doesn't do enough for them to matter (I fixed this by wearing armor and having an average Wisdom).
3) Their speed buffs do not stack with the premier martial buff (I "fixed" this by going with barbarian movement instead).
4) They are horribly vulnerable to effects that rob them of their dexterity and dodge bonuses (Hence why I absolutely wanted Uncanny Dodge).
5) Their average BAB with no way to buff themselves (the solution was I have 5 levels is perfect BAB classes plus weapon training plus dueling gloves to restore balance to the non-casting caster).
6) That with the option to use gauntlets (which is currently legal despite whining about how they might maybe sometime nerf it in the future rather than leaving it as it has been for the past 3 editions and the core rulebook) they are somewhat functional at overcoming damage reductions and getting much needed unarmed buffs (though if someone pried the gauntlets off my monk I'd instead get multiple layers of permanency + greater magic fang, but the downside is DR would tear her apart and I'd have to go to fighting with shield bashes instead).
7) Monks are a great dipper class. Either monk prime...
Fair enough. Point taken. I suppose you're right that your example makes an excellent proof by counterexample.
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While I don't necessarily agree with Ashiel's design philosophy, opinion on haste, and such grey areas as use of genie wishes, gauntlets etc. I have to admit he has proved a point in that a monk wearing armour and using non-monk weapons hasn't exactly lost much. It begs the question if those abilities are not worth more than the sacrifice, what good are they?
The comment was made before that MAD classes tend to reward the investor in them, but it clearly just isn't true of the monk.
Did we?
So since we've gone off the rails and are feeding the monster, lets look at the product we are praising.
We start off off book with the +2 Con Shirt and +2 Dex vest. Obviously an attempt to avoid paying the extra 4k for a belt of physical perfection. Loophole 1.
Speaking of slots, bracers of dueling don't exist. Gloves of dueling do. Loophole #2
Not sure how magic fang is stacking with gauntlets, since they are both enhancement bonuses, loophole #3.
26,860 in questionable spellcasting services and you have another loopholes #4, 5, 6...
All this build shows is that any GM who allowed it has no backbone.
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You can place magic items in other slots for the same cost.
Magic fang isn't stacking, it's overlapping.
Planar Binding wishes are RAW; this is a discussion about RAW. Keep how the game is played at your table to yourself.
While I don't necessarily agree with Ashiel's design philosophy, opinion on haste, and such grey areas as use of genie wishes, gauntlets etc.
Let me get another fresh batch of dead horses. :P
I have to admit he has proved a point in that a monk wearing armour and using non-monk weapons hasn't exactly lost much. It begs the question if those abilities are not worth more than the sacrifice, what good are they?
Not much. In fact, the more you take away RAW gauntlets and RAW inherent modifiers the more the monk needs to recoil from using unarmed attacks and being unarmored. Even with the inherent modifiers being unarmored is a poor idea, but without them it is suicide. Flurry is bad because it's pseudo-BAB that only applies when you full attack on a class with no reach weapons, poor to-hit bonuses, and with all the drawbacks of two-weapon fighting built in.
The comment was made before that MAD classes tend to reward the investor in them, but it clearly just isn't true of the monk.
Let's compare Monk (a theroetical martial with a key mental stat) to another martial with a mental stat: The Paladin. For Charisma investment Paladin gets...
1) Charisma to all saving throws on top of all normal benefits.
2) More uses of lay on hands and thus effectively more hit points.
3) More spellcasting for spells and bonus spells for various buff and party support purposes (grace allows them to avoid AoOs, bestow grace doubles their Cha to Saves, lesser restoration heals ability damage, and divine favor gives them bonuses to hit and damage on an already full BAB class).
4) Charisma applies to their to-hit rolls on a smite.
5) Charisma applies to their armor class vs a smite target.
6) Charisma applies to many of their skills. EDIT: Actually, only two of their skills. I think I was thinking this was more awesome because those skills it does apply to tend to be pretty awesome (Diplomacy and Handle Animal). Feel free to ignore this one.
Unlike monk Wisdom bonus, which applies to...
1) AC but only if armor or shields isn't boosting your AC (and you will never match the AC you can get from armor + shield with Wisdom), so this doesn't even count, because you're getting a net gain of 0 or less.
2) Ki-Pool.
3) Stunning fist DC.
4) 2 class skills (Perception, Sense Motive).
The end.
You can place magic items in other slots for the same cost.
Magic fang isn't stacking, it's overlapping.
Planar Binding wishes are RAW; this is a discussion about RAW. Keep how the game is played at your table to yourself.
Aratrok gets it. If someone was going to ignore that you can get items in other slots we can dump the gauntlets entirely, get multiple layers of GMF+Permanency.
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This is a fairly sprawled build description, my apologies. It roughly competes with Ashiel's master of many styles (no competition intended, it is simply a nearby build to compare against). I have two versions, a monk-only, and a secondary one geared for better DPR that takes some fighter levels. Both builds are PFS legal to my knowledge; neither build makes use of wish shenanigans. The monk-only build has great defenses and so-so offense with an expected DPR of 50 (or 66 with ki point). The monk/fighter build has fairly good DPR, especially considering that it has "pounce" and Snake Fang to supplement its basic DPR.
An important item for my build is the rod of balance (15000gp) that increases defensive fighting bonus by +2. Additionally the combination of Tiger Style and Crane Style (coupled with Combat Style Master) is not obvious, but works to my knowledge: start turn switching to Crane Style as a free action declare full-round defensive attack (sets penalty and benefit), then as a free action switch to Tiger Style and proceed to attack.
Tien qinggong monk 13
LG medium humanoid (human)
Str 24 = 15 base + 2 racial + 3 levels + 2 item
Dex 16 = 14 base + 2 item
Con 16 = 14 base + 2 item
Int 8
Wis 16 = 14 base + 2 item
Cha 10
traits bullied, Quain martial artist
level 1 - blind fight, crane style, dodge (bonus)
level 2 - combat reflexes (bonus)
level 3 - tiger style
level 4 - bark skin ki power instead of slow fall
level 5 - weapon focus
level 6 - improved disarm (bonus)
level 7 - power attack
level 8 -
level 9 - tiger claws
level 10 - medusa's wrath (bonus)
level 11 - tiger pounce
level 12 -
level 13 - combat style master
Init 5
HP 120 (13d8 + 52)
AC 36[38] touch 29[31] flat 28[30]
CMD 46[48]
fort 15[17] reflex 15[17] will 15[17]
attack +18/+18/+13/+13 (2d8+17+1d6(acid) /x2)
skills acrobatics 29(13), perception 20(13),
equipment (127,750gp spent):
belt of physical perfection +2 (16000gp)
headband of wisdom +4 (16000gp)
dusty rose prism (5000gp) (resonating)
wayfinder (500gp) (with ioun stone)
ring of protection +2 (8000gp)
ring of foe focus (10000gp)
cloak of resistance +4 (16000gp)
amulet of mighty fists +1 (5000gp)
monk's robe (13000gp)
rod of balance (15000gp)
goggles of night (12000gp)
feather step slippers (2000gp)
deliquiescent gloves (8000gp)
wand of mage armor (750gp)
20x potion of mage armor (1000gp)
Expected DPR
50.15
66.375 with ki point
Ashiel's master of many styles expected DPR
49.725
By taking 8 levels monk and 5 levels fighter, the build loses Medusa's Wrath but can gain Snake Style, Snake Sidewind and Snake Fang instead. This also gives up 1 point of AC, touch, flat and CMD; but increases attack and damage by 3 (due to gaining duelist gloves).
Expected DPR
2 * 0.70 * 30.5 + 2 * 0.45 * 30.5 + 0.2 * 30.5 = 76.25
3 * 0.70 * 30.5 + 2 * 0.45 * 30.5 + 0.2 * 30.5 = 97.6 ki
This DPR alternative still doesn't compete with dedicated DPR builds, but it is respectable and comes with excellent defenses. The ability to "pounce" and to retaliate against opponents that miss you is potent. When chosing not to flurry (thereby reducing the Expected DPR to 50.325 it is possible to retain a higher attack for AOOs (AOO attack after flurry 19; AOO attack without flurry 21). This is useful when expecting a lot of attacks (such as when solo'ing a BBEG). I'd say this compares favorably against Ashiel's master of many styles - without relying on a wish engine, and retaining that "naked" monk-i-ness (i.e. no armor or shields).
Monk/Fighter further discussion:
Assuming that for whatever reason the Crane / Tiger Combat Style Mastery method doesn't work, then Tiger Style feats and Power Attack drop from the build and instead the full Crane Style feat chain is added along with Weapon Specialization and one feat of your choice get added. AC, touch, flat and CMD all go up by 4; attack goes up by 1; damage goes down by 8. And the Crane style's attack negation (and counter attack) get added to the defensive matrix of the character. (The Crane / Snake Combat Style Mastery combination should work just fine.)
Expected DPR
2 * 0.75 * 24.5 + 2 * 0.5 * 24.5 + 0.25 * 24.5 = 67.375
3 * 0.75 * 24.5 + 2 * 0.5 * 24.5 + 0.25 * 24.5 = 85.75 ki
This is a fairly sprawled build description, my apologies. It roughly competes with Ashiel's master of many styles (no competition intended, it is simply a nearby build to compare against). I have two versions, a monk-only, and a secondary one geared for better DPR that takes some fighter levels. Both builds are PFS legal to my knowledge; neither build makes use of wish shenanigans. The monk-only build has great defenses and so-so offense with an expected DPR of 50 (or 66 with ki point). The monk/fighter build has fairly good DPR, especially considering that it has "pounce" and Snake Fang to supplement its basic DPR.
An important item for my build is the rod of balance (15000gp) that increases defensive fighting bonus by +2. Additionally the combination of Tiger Style and Crane Style (coupled with Combat Style Master) is not obvious, but works to my knowledge: start turn switching to Crane Style as a free action declare full-round defensive attack (sets penalty and benefit), then as a free action switch to Tiger Style and proceed to attack.
** spoiler omitted **...
I really like your monk Lorekeeper.
EDIT: I'm still concerned about your survivability though. At 1st level based on your feat progression, you'd be at 1st level with 15 AC or 18 AC when fighting defensively, but have no opportunities for reach, changing weapons effectively, and when keeping your AC at an average point your to-hit falls to +1 or +0 with flurry.Do you have any ideas or advice to help throughout levels of play?
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All this build shows is that any GM who allowed it has no backbone.Ease up now. There's more than one reason to allow such things.
Not really. Particularly with the gloves of dueling.
But for the purposes of debate, let's say all those loopholes are let in, and I won't even bother checking the math given. Lets assume all things are as written, legit.
Let us say we all sit down at this ridiculous table where you can get bound wishes easier than +3 items.
What is the net gain of the armor vs the loss.
Without armor, this build loses 11 from armor.
However this build, as is gains is gets +5 to AC (2 monk, 3 wisdom) and 14,500 in gold.
Bracers of armor (put them in whatever slot you like apparently...) +4 cost 16k so that would bring us to +9, or a net loss of 2 AC to gain Flurry and fast movement, and lose those pesky armor check penalties.
You could have those spellcasting services give you mage armor daily, that would take you to +9 as well.
So what are we talking about really? We are talking about a build that depends on lots of GM adjudication that is only impressive in that context.
We are talking about 2 AC and 1500 gp.
EDIT: Missed the shield bonus. But that is ok, gained the Dex Bonus.
EDIT: And evasion.
Wow, I totally missed Rod of Balance. That is a crazy good item.
Wow, I totally missed Rod of Balance. That is a crazy good item.
Indeed. I'd never heard of it. It is nice. XD
Wow, I totally missed Rod of Balance. That is a crazy good item.
Yes and no. For about the same amount of money you could get flying; so I'm in 2 minds about it.
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Math
Ashiel's Barbamonk as is
AC 38, touch 20, flat 18 (+11 armor, +3 dex, +2 natural, +2 deflection, +1 dodge, +4 dodge*, +5 shield)
Ashiel's Barbamonk without the armor
AC 31, touch 28, flat 18 (+2 Monk, +3 Wisdom, +7 dex, +2 natural, +2 deflection, +1 dodge, +4 dodge*) and 14,500k to spend on Bracers, Monk robe, wisdom boost item, etc...all of which would improve the AC and still allow flurry and evasion.
Spend 16k on Bracers of Armor and now you have +20 movement, +8 to touch AC, evasion and Flurry in exchange for a minus 3 to AC.
Drink a potion of Owls Wisdom, the gap is now -1 to AC.
This is just replacing the existing build. A 13th level monk would actually get another +1 to armor making it dead even on AC with the Owls Wisdom potion, in addition to keeping all of the advantages.
It isn't the armor, it is the exploits that make it so impressive. As usual.
YMMV depending on the sanity of your GM. Level playing fields are level...
Math
Ashiel's Barbamonk as is
AC 38, touch 20, flat 18 (+11 armor, +3 dex, +2 natural, +2 deflection, +1 dodge, +4 dodge*, +5 shield)
Ashiel's Barbamonk without the armor
AC 31, touch 28, flat 18 (+2 Monk, +3 Wisdom, +7 dex, +2 natural, +2 deflection, +1 dodge, +4 dodge*) and 14,500k to spend on Bracers, Monk robe, wisdom boost item, etc...all of which would improve the AC and still allow flurry and evasion.
Spend 16k on Bracers of Armor and now you have +20 movement, +8 to touch AC, evasion and Flurry in exchange for a minus 3 to AC.
Drink a potion of Owls Wisdom, the gap is now -1 to AC.
This is just replacing the existing build. A 13th level monk would actually get another +1 to armor making it dead even on AC with the Owls Wisdom potion, in addition to keeping all of the advantages.
It isn't the armor, it is the exploits that make it so impressive. As usual.
YMMV depending on the sanity of your GM. Level playing fields are level...
A potion of owls wisdom is 300 gp minimum and only lasts 3 minutes. I probably should have traded some monk features for gi gong powers, then my AC could hit AC 40 due to spell-like ability barkskin, but since folks complained that monks + casting (see my psionic monk) = badwrongfun, I figured I would keep to just one focus at the moment.
The armor and shield bonuses also apply to flat-footed AC, which despite my attempts to avoid losing my dex and dodge bonuses with Uncanny Dodge, uncanny dodge looses out if I'm rendered immobile. Since I don't have easy access to freedom of movement on my own, I have to accept that it's possible that my movement gets shut down despite my saving throws (sometimes we just get unlucky); and I enjoy having a well-rounded defense (my un-buffed AC is 38, touch is 20 (or 19+1d20 1/round) and flat-footed is 30).
Now if we have a party and/or access to even better magic items then I'll enjoy my build that much more. See bracers of armor only go up to +8, and you have to split it with any special abilities you want. If you have an item crafted in the party to upgrade your items incrementally, then I can go from a +2 full plate and a +3 shield to a +5 celestial full plate and +5 shield, at which point my Dexterity gets some reprieve from armor limitations, and completely crushes Wisdom in terms of AC.
So in other words without the armor I have to buff to get near the point I am at (notice that much of her combat tactics is taking apart other combat folk, or utterly ruining monsters with full-attacks by dodging and countering them), and opens me up to be a pincushing vs incoming attacks if I'm immobilized. Not really fond of that idea. So I traded some movement speed and evasion for enhanced physical defense.
Everything in my monk was done with consideration, and with purpose, to the sorts of problems I might face. My character can deal somewhat respectable damage (roughly on par with a sword & boarder, only with come and get me more or less built in).
Wow, I totally missed Rod of Balance. That is a crazy good item.Yes and no. For about the same amount of money you could get flying; so I'm in 2 minds about it.
Well flying is good so long as you can keep on top of your enemy, and then the whole flurry issue comes into play. That's why my monk has a longbow. Those rods are epic though. O.o
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Your unbuffed AC is 3 points higher than the unarmored monks unbuffed AC with a touch AC 8 points lower, no evasion, less movement and no flurry.
And that is just swapping the armor for bracer, not moving anything else around.
I could also get Bracers +9 for 9k and spend 4 k on a headband of wisdom and get that +4 cheaper and with more touch AC, again moving nothing else around.
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Ashiel, why are you insisting on using the flagrantly nonsense "+5 to all attributes for a tiny cost" shenanigans? No sane GM will ever or has ever allowed that as a standard feature in the game, and it actually hurts your argument because it helps alleviate MADness and buffs Wis, so dumping Wisdom and wearing armor is less useful.
Ditch the free +5 garbage and now your armor is denying you less Wis bonus and less Dex bonus.
Your unbuffed AC is 3 points higher than the unarmored monks unbuffed AC with a touch AC 8 points lower, no evasion, less movement and no flurry.
Well duh no flurry. I'm a master of many styles. I don't have flurry to begin with...
And that is just swapping the armor for bracer, not moving anything else around.
And 3 points higher is 15% more evasion, which is 15% more chance to b&*!+-slap an enemy or avoid damage. Evasion is cool, but I'll get it back later and resist energy is a cheap go-to spell that takes care of most of that anyway (and comes in long-lasting potion varieties if your party happens to lack a single caster).
I could also get Bracers +9 for 9k and spend 4 k on a headband of wisdom and get that +4 cheaper and with more touch AC, again moving nothing else around.
And you're forgetting that my touch AC is 20 but I have the option to replace it with a check that makes it between 20-39 (averages 29-30), which is explicitly the point of having the snake style bit. Most touch attacks are fairly infrequent, so being able to dodge 1/round isn't bad IMHO and will only get better as levels approve (my 1/round touch AC effectively increases by +1 per level this way).
I can still benefit from haste (the most popular party buff ever) for land speed if needed, move at normal speed now, could be wearing boots of striding or something (I'm not wearing special boots actually) if I really just want to move faster. But my strategy is fairly simple. I can tank and protect my allies fairly effectively, have a bow for things that are flying, and enjoy some immunities and such.
Ashiel, why are you insisting on using the flagrantly nonsense "+5 to all attributes for a tiny cost" shenanigans? No sane GM will ever or has ever allowed that as a standard feature in the game, and it actually hurts your argument because it helps alleviate MADness and buffs Wis, so dumping Wisdom and wearing armor is less useful.
Ditch the free +5 garbage and now your armor is denying you less Wis bonus and less Dex bonus.
Ditching it doesn't change my AC, but I deny that no sane GM allows it. I allow it. I know at least 6 other GMs who allow it, that I play with both offline and online. EDIT: I also already said that it favors naked monks more than armored monks, and I have no problem with that.
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Ditching it does make your armor more valuable by reducing what your AC would be without it, which tramples the "well your armor doesn't really help you all that much" argument.
And really? You all play "Right, we've hit Level 11, time to spend the next month or so binding genies so all of us can have +5 to all of our attributes for what it usually costs to get a slot-using item to give +4 to a single attribute of one person, just like we do in every campaign"? I swear, sometimes I feel like I'm playing a completely different game from everyone else.
Pretty much. Adventuring is the most dangerous profession in the world, and good adventurers take every advantage they can get.
Dying sucks, getting raised and dying again sucks more.