Ditching it does make your armor more valuable by reducing what your AC would be without it, which tramples the "well your armor doesn't really help you all that much" argument.
And really? You all play "Right, we've hit Level 11, time to spend the next month or so binding genies so all of us can have +5 to all of our attributes for what it usually costs to get a slot-using item to give +4 to a single attribute of one person, just like we do in every campaign"? I swear, sometimes I feel like I'm playing a completely different game from everyone else.
Truth be told we don't usually use NPC services, and instead do it with party capabilities, which actually involves calling them up proper. Admittedly the first time it came up in a game I was surprised and had to think about it. I thought it over, looked at what the PCs were getting I figured there was no need to GM fiat it. It wasn't a big deal, and the tomes are overpriced.
Inherent bonuses cap out at +5, and then stop. It's nice, and it helps the PCs survive at those levels (which are very very brutal).
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For S & G lets make your monk an actual 13th level monk Same stats
AC 32, touch 30, flat 18 (+7 dex, +2 natural, +2 deflection, +1 dodge, +4 dodge*, +3 Monk, +3 Wisdom)
For the same cost as the armor, add +3 bracers and a +2 Wisdom and you are at 36. I am 2 points lower in regular AC 10 higher Touch AC.
You add abundant step, improved evasion, immunity to poison, and Spell Resistance.
The AC is a function of the exploits, not the build.
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+5 to all stats at relatively little cost is a big deal. The tomes are priced the way they are because that is the expected balanced price.
Consider that your wish engine is enough to grant you more gold than you need to do the wish engine in the first place. Essentially, once you allow playing that way, it means that you are unburdened by any balance consideration - you can indefinitely fund your wish engine and end up with some 2 million gold to spare per character after funding a complete item make-over and a couple of palaces (and the obligatory +5 to all stats).
It is important to understand that the bestiary has the djinn and efreeti and the like that grant wishes not as a convenient aid to PCs, but to make allowance for classic adventure scenarios.
For S & G lets make your monk an actual 13th level monk Same stats
AC 32, touch 30, flat 18 (+7 dex, +2 natural, +2 deflection, +1 dodge, +4 dodge*, +3 Monk, +3 Wisdom)
For the same cost as the armor, add +3 bracers and a +2 Wisdom and you are at 36. I am 2 points lower in regular AC 10 higher Touch AC.
You add abundant step, improved evasion, immunity to poison, and Spell Resistance.
The AC is a function of the exploits, not the build.
Dude, you're sitting there complaining that the AC is due to the "exploits", but the stats you're using for your monk without armor is using those "exploits". Without +5s to my stats the unarmored AC would be sub-30. Roberta already pointed that out. Catch up man.
I already said that the +5 to all stats favors the unarmored monk in terms of gain. The armored monk's AC is untouched by the loss of the inherent modifiers -- again as Roberta pointed out already. In fact Roberta suggested I remove the +5s because it has little effect on the effectiveness of the build and doesn't change the AC, but would prevent you from bobbing your head and going "But with your stats you could have this, you dirty exploiter, so your AC is because of dirty exploits!"
I think I agree with her.
For S & G lets make your monk an actual 13th level monk Same stats
AC 32, touch 30, flat 18 (+7 dex, +2 natural, +2 deflection, +1 dodge, +4 dodge*, +3 Monk, +3 Wisdom)
For the same cost as the armor, add +3 bracers and a +2 Wisdom and you are at 36. I am 2 points lower in regular AC 10 higher Touch AC.
You add abundant step, improved evasion, immunity to poison, and Spell Resistance.
The AC is a function of the exploits, not the build.
This is true - but the cost also includes a loss of +3 to hit and damage. This has a very sizable impact on the potential DPR. Whether that +3 is balanced against the additional defensive abilities is up to the individual.
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I'm simply pointing out your armor doesn't add much and gives up even more.
I am using the exploits because that is the only way the field is level. I could spend a few hours trying to figure out your math manipulation, or I could just swap out and show the amazing parts come from abuse of exploits.
Without the +5 everything would be down. Attack bonus, damage, saves...without the slot manipulation, it would be even worse.
You posted the build, I'm just pointing out the "awesome" in the build is from the exploits, not the build itself. If you plug anything into a build that full of exploits it looks great, much like if you give a baseball player steroids, they hit more home runs.
+5 to all stats at relatively little cost is a big deal. The tomes are priced the way they are because that is the expected balanced price.
Consider that your wish engine is enough to grant you more gold than you need to do the wish engine in the first place. Essentially, once you allow playing that way, it means that you are unburdened by any balance consideration - you can indefinitely fund your wish engine and end up with some 2 million gold to spare per character after funding a complete item make-over and a couple of palaces (and the obligatory +5 to all stats).
It is important to understand that the bestiary has the djinn and efreeti and the like that grant wishes not as a convenient aid to PCs, but to make allowance for classic adventure scenarios.
Incorrect. Wish cannot be used like that in Pathfinder. It's part of the reason I had to nerf wish in 3.5 in my home games, after talking it over with my party. The Pathfinder version is pretty mild. There's not really much you can do with it as far as money exploits that I know of.
And I also disagree on your assessment that I am somehow "unburdened by any balance consideration", because neither does wish grant infinite power (or much for that matter, since actively getting a djinn to follow you around on dangerous adventurers to help you mimic spells via wish is most definitely not the same as asking for a wish via planar binding during your downtime in safety).
Again, Wishes do not make Palaces. Pathfinder Wish is not that strong. Unless perhaps you're just talking about wishing for wall of stone and fabricate a whole lot of times, but at that point you could really do it way cheaper and skip the middle man.
I'm simply pointing out your armor doesn't add much and gives up even more.
I am using the exploits because that is the only way the field is level. I could spend a few hours trying to figure out your math manipulation, or I could just swap out and show the amazing parts come from abuse of exploits.
Without the +5 everything would be down. Attack bonus, damage, saves...without the slot manipulation, it would be even worse.
You posted the build, I'm just pointing out the "awesome" in the build is from the exploits, not the build itself. If you plug anything into a build that full of exploits it looks great, much like if you give a baseball player steroids, they hit more home runs.
Oh no, it adds a ton. With the +5 inherent modifiers you couldn't catch my AC and my touch AC was comparable 1/round (admittedly if facing a ton of wizards spamming touch spells then we might have issues but virtually everyone does in that scenario unless you're outright immune). Without the +5 AC the AC drops below 30 (32 down to 25, then buffed to just above 30 with all your added stuff). MY AC doesn't fall, and it adds meaingful armor much earlier (see 5th level build with the AC 26+ versus what would be AC sup 20 at that level).
The problem is "the awesome build is from exploits" is not true to anyone who can count.
EDIT: And it gets better. Let's say that at higher levels one of the party members in the group starts upgrading items (since we're not allowed to go outside our own means for the 13th level builds we've properly ignored this, but while people are talking about actual builds for actual games, then we get into item creation).
The armored monk I presented has a top-end of...
10 Base
+5 mithral celestial full plate (+14 AC)
+5 heavy shield (+7 AC)
+5 natural armor item or spell (+5 AC)
+5 deflection item or spell (+5 AC)
+9 Dexterity (+9 AC)
+1 Insight (+1 AC)
+1 Dodge feat (+1 AC)
+4 Crane Style (+4 AC)
= AC 56, with Evasion active, as well as all the immunities you listed, and the ability to have 4 stances active at once (methinks monkey stance would be the next stance to pick up, since it would allow me to more or less be prone all the time).
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For S & G lets make your monk an actual 13th level monk Same stats
AC 32, touch 30, flat 18 (+7 dex, +2 natural, +2 deflection, +1 dodge, +4 dodge*, +3 Monk, +3 Wisdom)
For the same cost as the armor, add +3 bracers and a +2 Wisdom and you are at 36. I am 2 points lower in regular AC 10 higher Touch AC.
You add abundant step, improved evasion, immunity to poison, and Spell Resistance.
The AC is a function of the exploits, not the build.
This is true - but the cost also includes a loss of +3 to hit and damage. This has a very sizable impact on the potential DPR. Whether that +3 is balanced against the additional defensive abilities is up to the individual.
And that is fair. I would welcome a direct comparison, but I don't know if it is possible considering how many rules loopholes need to be exploited just for that build, let alone all the possible builds that could come using similar exploits.
My response was to Dabbler saying Ashiel had demonstrated that Armor may superior based on the impressive 38 AC at 13th level. It is only impressive relative to builds that don't abuse the system to what I feel are absurd levels.
I got to 36 with the same build and same cost as armor, with a monk with a 17 wisdom at 13th level and 10 higher touch AC, if I am allowed the same exploits. 38 seems less impressive when you consider that.
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Does Wish --> duplicate Fabricate --> create a pile of 9,999gp worth of gold work? Because if so, it takes the same number of castings of Wish it takes to get a party of five +5 to every stat as it takes to farm 1.5 million gp that way. At any rate, I think it's pretty clear that Planar Binding isn't meant to be a "cast any 8th-level spell you want with no material component cost" button, let alone a +5-to-everything-forever button.
So, if the Monk's getting +5 to everything, we can assume the Fighter is too. What's a 13th-level Fighter look like with that sort of bonus? Because I'm guessing the steroid-Fighter can put the steroid-Monk to shame.
Does Wish --> duplicate Fabricate --> create a pile of 9,999gp worth of gold work? Because if so, it takes the same number of castings of Wish it takes to get a party of five +5 to every stat as it takes to farm 1.5 million gp that way. At any rate, I think it's pretty clear that Planar Binding isn't meant to be a "cast any 8th-level spell you want with no material component cost" button, let alone a +5-to-everything-forever button.
So, if the Monk's getting +5 to everything, we can assume the Fighter is too. What's a 13th-level Fighter look like with that sort of bonus? Because I'm guessing the steroid-Fighter can put the steroid-Monk to shame.
If you want to talk about gold exploits, fabricate is all you need.
Take Gems.
Fabricate into cut gems.
Profit.
Seriously, crafting trade goods in D&D is pretty efficient. In D&D gems, jewelry, and art objects are all trade goods and can be spent as currency. Fabricate quite literally allows you to take 3000 gp worth of stuff and turn it into 9000 gp worth of stone instantly, and then turn around and spend it as 9000 gp.
I think doing the fantasy thing of trading with genies for wishes is far more interesting that creating a lot of trade goods in short order.
+5 to all stats at relatively little cost is a big deal. The tomes are priced the way they are because that is the expected balanced price.
I confess I have to agree with Lorekeeper on this subject. I wouldn't allow it in my games, but that's my opinion and how I choose to run.]
Even without this, Ashiel did have a point that the monk's investment in wisdom does not, currently, justify itself in terms of return. The paladin gets a lot more out of charisma than the monk gets out of wisdom, for example, yet the monk also has to invest in dexterity and constitution to a greater extent than the paladin.
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You can place magic items in other slots for the same cost.
Magic fang isn't stacking, it's overlapping.
Planar Binding wishes are RAW; this is a discussion about RAW. Keep how the game is played at your table to yourself.
The RAW only says what can happen not what will happen. By RAW there is nothing stopping an escaping genie from seeking retribution, nor does RAW tell you that all of the genies won't just roll nat 20's and escape even if they don't want revenge.
The wish binding is not different than saying someone can steal X amount of magic items, and never pay for them. Yeah you can try it, but it is not guaranteed to work.
If you want to go by "what might" happen go ahead. There are very creative posters here. Going by "what might" happen will just lead to a thread full of "well what about this..." in order to one up the other poster.
Why did I even bother mentioning stealing. The rules don't prevent powerful NPC's from being affected as if they were mortals. I can just use diplomacy to talk them into giving me whatever I want, or I can use bluff.
RAW, it does take GM fiat to stop certain lies from being believed.
Note that some lies are so improbable that it is impossible to convince anyone that they are true (subject to GM discretion).
So I can be like a dog bit my leg you need to give any item I want or the world will end.
edit:Yeah that last sentence was silly, but I will expect for a GM to allow it to get by as much as they will allow wish-binding.
If you are judging a monk by his DPR, then you are doing it wrong.
Monks are pure battlefield control.
Played right, they are stunning,tripping,disarming, grappeling and sunder machines.
They can lock down a spellcaster at melee range, Disarm and de-armor a melee tank and deflect most attacks from a ranged specialist.
Barbarian with a 2 handed axe got you down? A monk with improved disarm or improved sunder will either take or break that weapon. Then its flurry of blows time and down goes the barbarian.
Spellcaster decimating the party? A grappling monk will shut him down quicker that you can say hammerlock!
Monks can Parkour through a dungeon. They practically ignore most terrain effects and can outrun most other characters.
They don't win by out DPRing the other guy, they will by bringing his DPR down to their level.
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If you are judging a monk by his DPR, then you are doing it wrong.
Monks are pure battlefield control.
Played right, they are stunning,tripping,disarming, grappeling and sunder machines.They can lock down a spellcaster at melee range, Disarm and de-armor a melee tank and deflect most attacks from a ranged specialist.
Barbarian with a 2 handed axe got you down? A monk with improved disarm or improved sunder will either take or break that weapon. Then its flurry of blows time and down goes the barbarian.
Spellcaster decimating the party? A grappling monk will shut him down quicker that you can say hammerlock!
Monks can Parkour through a dungeon. They practically ignore most terrain effects and can outrun most other characters.
They don't win by out DPRing the other guy, they will by bringing his DPR down to their level.
Can they do those things reliably, and not just against medium humanoid opponents, and do it without breaking their own flavor? Can they afford to do that considering all the feat taxes involved? Do they wind up being overspecialized if they try to live up to that role, hurting their functionality elsewhere.
And that's even before the question of "are they any better at doing that than other classes, making that their special thing?" Having Greater versions of those CMB feats even harder to reach because of MAD certainly stands in the way.
The image of the monk brings a lot of masterful uses of combat maneuvers to mind, but they sure don't come to them easily or even naturally in some cases.
To be fair, Genies grant wishes to non-genies. If those aren't/shouldn't be available for a player who binds a genie, then what the hell are they there for?
And what justification, as a GM, would you use to deny a caster from casting multiple protections/bindings?
How is this anything but a GM punishing a player's creativity? (And honestly, +2.5 on a roll isn't really a big deal, especially considering all the steps you have to go through to get it.)
Monks have no class features that make them any better at using combat maneuvers than any full-BAB class like Fighter (in fact, with more feats, less MAD, and Weapon Training, Fighters do it better); spellcasters should be invisible/flying/otherwise difficult to access in ways that monks have no particular answers to; and CMD quickly shoots up high enough that combat maneuvers are worthless anyhow. The only non-maneuver method of battlefield control you have listed is Stunning Fist, except that doesn't work either because it both requires a hit and permits a save. So, no, they actually don't control the battlefield at all.
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If you are judging a monk by his DPR, then you are doing it wrong.
Monks are pure battlefield control.
Played right, they are stunning,tripping,disarming, grappeling and sunder machines.
No more than other martials. In fact they are patently inferior to other martials at most of these things.
They can lock down a spellcaster at melee range, Disarm and de-armor a melee tank and deflect most attacks from a ranged specialist.
If the spellcaster is absent bodyguards, illusions, minions, freedom of movement, and so forth. Of course at that point anyone could have killed the caster.
Barbarian with a 2 handed axe got you down? A monk with improved disarm or improved sunder will either take or break that weapon. Then its flurry of blows time and down goes the barbarian.
Except that monk damage is too low to break the weapon, and if you're trying to disarm the barbarian of his weapon you're a dead monk. Well...unless you're a barbarian 2 / weaponmaster 3 / master of many styles 8. Then you and he can roshambo until one of you drops. XD
Spellcaster decimating the party? A grappling monk will shut him down quicker that you can say hammerlock!
... I made my will save to disbelieve.
Monks can Parkour through a dungeon. They practically ignore most terrain effects and can outrun most other characters.
Well I guess theoretically you only have to outrun the slowest party member...
They don't win by out DPRing the other guy, they will by bringing his DPR down to their level.
Worse than every other martial class who does these things AND kills stuff. >.>
To be fair, Genies grant wishes to non-genies. If those aren't/shouldn't be available for a player who binds a genie, then what the hell are they there for?
And what justification, as a GM, would you use to deny a caster from casting multiple protections/bindings?How is this anything but a GM punishing a player's creativity? (And honestly, +2.5 on a roll isn't really a big deal, especially considering all the steps you have to go through to get it.)
It does not take a lot of creativity to handle a genie when you are level 13. It is actually pretty easy. You can also do this for every stat, not just one. If you think giving people a +5 to every stat is ok then you can as a GM, but don't be surprised when you have to up the challenge.
As for what is a +2 to a stat, you can up DPR by 10 or more with a simple +2. At the same time you can reduce DPR by a lot against yourself if your dex raises your AC by 2. +2 seems small, but it actually matters.
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To be fair, Genies grant wishes to non-genies. If those aren't/shouldn't be available for a player who binds a genie, then what the hell are they there for? [...] How is this anything but a GM punishing a player's creativity?
Genies exist in the game world because there are plenty of stories where the GM might want to introduce them to the plot. That's very different from having them exist as a "Hey, any party with an arcane caster, gain ridiculous bonuses and become able to cast 8th-level spells regularly at 11th level" button.
There's a fine line between "creativity" and "game mechanics abuse". You come up with the idea of summoning a genie once to help with a specific situation? Fine. Your go-to move in every campaign is to summon genies and turn everyone's 15-point buy into a 100-point buy because you read on the internet once that it was a good idea? Not going to fly.
(And honestly, +2.5 on a roll isn't really a big deal, especially considering all the steps you have to go through to get it.)
Um, yes it is. At absolute minimum, you're essentially getting the entire party the equivalent of:
Iron Will
Lightning Reflexes
Great Fortitude
Weapon Focus (Everything)
Greater Weapon Focus (Everything)
Weapon Specialization (Everything)
Dodge x2
Toughness x2
That psionic Toughness-for-skill-points feat x2
Spell Focus (Everything)
Greater Spell Focus (Everything)
Breadth of Experience (except for all skills instead of just Knowledge and Profession)
Improved Initiative x0.5
That's 16 feats, and that's only treating it as +2 instead of +2.5, these stack with everything else (including the actual versions of these feats), and that's not even getting into benefits that are class-specific or that don't correspond well to feats, like extra AC for Monks, extra spells per day for casters, extra carrying capacity for everyone, etc.
You must be joking. +2.5 to a die roll may not sound like much, but +2.5 to every single roll you'll ever make ever in the entire game, which the entire party gets at minimal cost, is a joke.
If you are judging a monk by his DPR, then you are doing it wrong.
Monks are pure battlefield control.
Played right, they are stunning,tripping,disarming, grappeling and sunder machines.They can lock down a spellcaster at melee range, Disarm and de-armor a melee tank and deflect most attacks from a ranged specialist.
Barbarian with a 2 handed axe got you down? A monk with improved disarm or improved sunder will either take or break that weapon. Then its flurry of blows time and down goes the barbarian.
Spellcaster decimating the party? A grappling monk will shut him down quicker that you can say hammerlock!
Monks can Parkour through a dungeon. They practically ignore most terrain effects and can outrun most other characters.
They don't win by out DPRing the other guy, they will by bringing his DPR down to their level.
First of all monks do decent damage. We know that, well at least until they run into certain types of DR.
Those combat manuevers work if the GM uses a lot of humanoids. Monsters just point and laugh most of the time since their CMD's get really high around level 10.
The monk has to survive a full attack from the barbarian first, and assume it has no backup weapon or natural attacks. My money is not on the monk.
Anyone that can get to a caster, and get their hands on him can take him down. The monk is not special in that area. The monk however has no special way to get to the caster that most other martials don't have.
Define ignore more terrain affects?
Running fast is not all that great. Other characters can do it, when it is called for, and it is so situation that it hardly ever comes up.
So now I ask you this, what is the monk bringing to the party on a consistent basis that should make me want to take him as the 5th party member over another class. AKA if the party members were actually alive why would they choose the monk?
To be fair, Genies grant wishes to non-genies. If those aren't/shouldn't be available for a player who binds a genie, then what the hell are they there for?
And what justification, as a GM, would you use to deny a caster from casting multiple protections/bindings?How is this anything but a GM punishing a player's creativity? (And honestly, +2.5 on a roll isn't really a big deal, especially considering all the steps you have to go through to get it.)
Also, what I meant when I said that Tomes are horribly overpriced earlier is that they are priced as if you are actually casting wish the spell itself. Looking at the item creation mechanics, it seems pretty certain that the cost is pretty spot on for a magic item that casts wish once ever and is then consumed, after factoring in wish's 25,000 gp material component.
The problem I have with that is that it's not a 1/- charged item of wish. Wish does a lot more for you, and would be far more worth its price. However we're talking about an extremely limited version of wish. Of all the things that wish can do, this is one tiny thing, a +1 inherent modifier that caps at +5 and only produces a net result of +2.5 to the modifier.
Yet the item is priced as though it can do everything a wish can do. Including rewind time, bring people back from the dead, replicate almost any spell, and so on and so forth. That's not exactly fair, or reasonable at all. It would be like if I said "Here is an item that only does a fraction of what the spell does, and one of the more minor fractions at that, but I priced it the same as if you actually got to cast the spell, and then also made it so it takes about a week to cast it".
However, in an effort to give the dead horse some reprieve, I won't bother with discussing it further. I've already shown a few things that are helpful to monk players.
1) Inherent modifiers can help you catch up to real classes since you are so horribly MAD.
2) If you lack inherent modifiers, the best way to make a defensive monk that can actually survive a game that the GM isn't playing footsie with you during is by ignoring many of your class features.
3) Monks have fairly decent opportunities for weapons in gauntlets, at least until they nerf it with an actual errata. Then monks can cry some more because the Monk from BG:DA-II is cooler than them. :(
4) Monks are darn good as dips or with dips.
Using these understandings they can work with their groups to make characters who can survive from 1st-20th level and work out pretty well. It is also feedback to anyone who wants to try their hand at fixing monks in their own game if they aren't apt to waiting for Paizo to do it for them. I already "fixed" monks in my games and it is entirely possible to go from 1st-20th level as a monk in my games without problems. But it has the dreaded P-word attached to it so it's not for everyone. :P
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Genies exist in the game world because there are plenty of stories where the GM might want to introduce them to the plot. That's very different from having them exist as a "Hey, any party with an arcane caster, gain ridiculous bonuses and become able to cast 8th-level spells regularly at 11th level" button.
There's a fine line between "creativity" and "game mechanics abuse". You come up with the idea of summoning a genie once to help with a specific situation? Fine. Your go-to move in every campaign is to summon genies and turn everyone's 15-point buy into a 100-point buy because you read on the internet once that it was a good idea? Not going to fly.
I'm going to try hard to make this my last comment on the issue but, Efreeti are outsiders with spell-like abilities, within the limits of planar binding, known by the designers pre-PF release (this was brought up during the playtest), and can be used by characters. That is what planar binding does. That is what it is for. To use outsiders to get things you normally do not have access to. Using an efreeti to grant wishes is just as viable as using a succubus to extract information out of a captive (their at-will charm monster and +8 Charisma modifier makes resisting their probing futile). You are asserting what you think should or should not be possible purely as an opinion. It is not very kind to assert something purely of opinion, assert others are wrong without providing some sort of evidence to the contrary beyond "I don't like it", and so forth. If it is not for your group then that is fine. However, talking badly about others or telling them what will and will not fly in their games - especially something easily done within the rules pretty much by using those rules exactly as they are - is not really cool.
Likewise, it has nothing to do with point buy any more than racial modifiers or magic items have anything to do with the point buy. There seems to be a misunderstanding as to what point buy is. It is a method of generating fair scores between players and setting a baseline. It is not a measurement of every modifier or ability scores post creation. One cannot say that a character at 20th level with the modified scores of: 30, 26, 26, 24, 18, 18 is not a 15 Point Buy Character but is instead a 102+ point buy character; because that is now what it means at all.
Thank you for your time. I like your posts, Roberta.
EDIT: Concerning your feat rant, one could say that Cats Grace is OP because it's effectively giving you dodge x2, lightning reflexes, stealthy, 1/2 Improved Initiative, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. It's not, even though you'd never have even a +2 enhancement bonus at 3rd level when you get cat's grace. Just as it's not OP to have very similar benefits at 13th level when cat's grace doesn't do anything anymore with no replacement for it. EDIT 2: It also doesn't take away those feats and investments from players who do, unlike Ring of Evasion which outright replaces a class feature, or how shields could grant Deflect Arrows in 3.x (slightly doesn't anymore due to changing one and not the other), and so forth. If you've got Alertness you still enjoy Alertness.
I think the inherent bonuses are that high(priced) in order to slow down the stacking of ability points, and since they are the last 5 points you get, players will pay to get them.
It is an issue of supply and demand.
It is just like how food items at the movies, and airports are overpriced. They know people will pay the price due to the situation.
I think the inherent bonuses are that high(priced) in order to slow down the stacking of ability points, and since they are the last 5 points you get, players will pay to get them.
It is an issue of supply and demand.
It is just like how food items at the movies, and airports are overpriced. They know people will pay the price due to the situation.
Still doesn't make it unfair though unless no one else is getting them. But that's not the case. And it certainly doesn't inflate the power of the powerful. I posted a CR 20 encounter a while back. You've seen it Wraithstrike. High level enemies and encounters are disgusting. Inherent modifiers aren't going to save you, but they can help. And the more MAD you are, the more they help. Inherent modifiers are good for monks, not unfair to them.
Still doesn't make it unfair though unless no one else is getting them. But that's not the case. And it certainly doesn't inflate the power of the powerful. I posted a CR 20 encounter a while back. You've seen it Wraithstrike. High level enemies and encounters are disgusting. Inherent modifiers aren't going to save you, but they can help. And the more MAD you are, the more they help. Inherent modifiers are good for monks, not unfair to them.I think the inherent bonuses are that high(priced) in order to slow down the stacking of ability points, and since they are the last 5 points you get, players will pay to get them.
It is an issue of supply and demand.
It is just like how food items at the movies, and airports are overpriced. They know people will pay the price due to the situation.
It might save you by helping. I am not saying it is an auto-win however. I think it would be silly to say you can pay _____ gold(very high amount) or you can just use this 6th level spell. People will almost always take the easier path.
PS:It might be a 7th level spell, but still. Not only that, but the wish spell cost more money so there is no reason to even buy the tomes.
Again, it's not just the inherent bonuses, it's that it makes Wish obsolete as anything other than a combat spell, which has never been its real use.
Multiple wishes as a 6th level spell with no material component cost? No. Not happening.
That's bizarre. Wish is most definitely a combat spell. It is the "oh s!&#, emergency eject" button. This is the factual uses of Wish that you can rely on.
Wish is the mightiest spell a wizard or sorcerer can cast. By simply speaking aloud, you can alter reality to better suit you. Even wish, however, has its limits. A wish can produce any one of the following effects.
Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.
Combat application plus out of combat applications.
Duplicate any non-sorcerer/wizard spell of 7th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.
As above and gives you access to spells inside and outside combat you don't even have access to. You want to cast spell immunity but you're not a Cleric? Wish has your back.
Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 7th level or lower, even if it belongs to one of your opposition schools.
And again...
Duplicate any non-sorcerer/wizard spell of 6th level or lower, even if it belongs to one of your opposition schools.
Just keeps on giving.
Undo the harmful effects of many other spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.
Oh look, you can break the effects of bad things, both during downtime or right in the middle of combat.
Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three wishes for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies.
The one aspect of Wish you are attributing wish's power to.
Remove injuries and afflictions. A single wish can aid one creature per caster level, and all subjects are cured of the same kind of affliction. For example, you could heal all the damage you and your companions have taken, or remove all poison effects from everyone in the party, but not do both with the same wish.
Holy mother of...this is almost as good as a mass heal on demand, and you're not even a Cleric!
Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life by duplicating a resurrection spell. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the task takes two wishes: one to recreate the body and another to infuse the body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from gaining a permanent negative level.
Pseudo-resurrection, and you're not a cleric. Sweet. It's better than mimicing raise dead 'cause you can actually make the whole body that was obliterated. It also has no additional material component (its component being 10,000 gp or less), and it doesn't take 1 minute to cast, so you can resurrect someone as a standard action.
Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
Surely this has no combat or out of combat applications at all.
Undo misfortune. A wish can undo a single recent event. The wish forces a reroll of any roll made within the last round (including your last turn). Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result. For example, a wish could undo an opponent's successful save, a foe's successful critical hit (either the attack roll or the critical roll), a friend's failed save, and so on. The reroll, however, may be as bad as or worse than the original roll. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
Whoa! Rewind! No...really, rewind. Do it. That guy who saved? Try again. The guy who failed a save? Let's recap. That critical hit? What critical hit? You rewind and reshape time in 6 seconds. Clearly wish is only for +1 inherent modifiers.
You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment, at the GM's discretion.)
The GM fiat clause saying that "Hey, wish can do even more awesome stuff than this subject to GM discretion". Given what it describes it can do, it can probably do a lot of other pretty amazing things too if your GM doesn't poop on it. Not that you NEED to do anything beyond this.
Duplicated spells allow saves and spell resistance as normal (but save DCs are for 9th-level spells).
The bit noting that duplicating spell effects comes with better save DCs 'cause it is indeed a 9th level spell.
When a wish duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 10,000 gp, you must provide that component (in addition to the 25,000 gp diamond component for this spell).
So if you're not being weird and using wish to duplicate...wish? Well your components are covered.
Yes, clearly a spell that has never been combat appropriate and has no out of combat applications (assuming you ignore pretty much every transmutation, abjuration, necromancy, conjuration, and some cool evocations that are out of combat, the various divine spells that are out of combat).
:P
Still doesn't make it unfair though unless no one else is getting them. But that's not the case. And it certainly doesn't inflate the power of the powerful. I posted a CR 20 encounter a while back. You've seen it Wraithstrike. High level enemies and encounters are disgusting. Inherent modifiers aren't going to save you, but they can help. And the more MAD you are, the more they help. Inherent modifiers are good for monks, not unfair to them.I think the inherent bonuses are that high(priced) in order to slow down the stacking of ability points, and since they are the last 5 points you get, players will pay to get them.
It is an issue of supply and demand.
It is just like how food items at the movies, and airports are overpriced. They know people will pay the price due to the situation.
And those high level enemies should have scads of wishes of their own backing them up. Or mid-level enemies really. Remember any with access to an 11th level wizard has infinite free wishes. If nothing else, every BBEG above 13th level or so should have a 11th level wizard on contract to resurrect him if needed. 2 wishes will do it, even without the body. 3 if you don't have a cleric handy for restoration.
Never beat an enemy permanently again.BBEGs are usually higher level than PCs, so this should probably start when the PCs are 9th or 10th level. Every significant enemy, or main henchmen of such, they run into from then on should have the +5 boost and get resurrected as needed. Plus any other tricks you can come up with for infinite wishes.
Given that the bad guys also have the same 15 point buy and much, much, muuuuch less wealth by level than the PCs of equal level, I'm not seeing your point here. Why should we care if the BBEG is got inherent modifiers? Doesn't change how to defeat them in the slightest.
Also, wtf does an efreeti have to do with bad guys being recyclable? This is D&D man. Raise dead is available at...what, 9th, or was it 7th level? You can already pay to have someone return you to life. Heck, a scroll of contingency could get your remains (or what is left of them) popped back to a temple of your choosing with a "do resuscitate" sign on 'em).
Still doesn't make it unfair though unless no one else is getting them. But that's not the case. And it certainly doesn't inflate the power of the powerful. I posted a CR 20 encounter a while back. You've seen it Wraithstrike. High level enemies and encounters are disgusting. Inherent modifiers aren't going to save you, but they can help. And the more MAD you are, the more they help. Inherent modifiers are good for monks, not unfair to them.I think the inherent bonuses are that high(priced) in order to slow down the stacking of ability points, and since they are the last 5 points you get, players will pay to get them.
It is an issue of supply and demand.
It is just like how food items at the movies, and airports are overpriced. They know people will pay the price due to the situation.
It might save you by helping. I am not saying it is an auto-win however. I think it would be silly to say you can pay _____ gold(very high amount) or you can just use this 6th level spell. People will almost always take the easier path.
PS:It might be a 7th level spell, but still. Not only that, but the wish spell cost more money so there is no reason to even buy the tomes.
There are many paths to a destination. Some paths are easier traveled. This argument does not concern me unless it is actually mechanically disruptive. It is my experience that it is not. If we want to make sure everything is equal on all terms and that no method of anything is more convenient or possible than another, then we are going to be modding literally everything in the game from classes to equipment to items, and so forth.
Even Paizo publishes lots of stuff that are frankly just out right better than other options. Sometimes to the extent that it bugs me. A continual flame torch is in the core rulebook and costs more than 100 gp. There's a wondrous item in the Advanced Player's Guide that has the effects of a continual flame constantly for 75 gp. Less than the cost of an actual everburning torch and even less than the cost of the material component to cast the spell! And to add insult to injury, the Everburning Torch can be dispelled. The Ioun Stone is merely suppressed for 1d4 rounds because it's a wondrous item.
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Why were all the "Planar Tariff" posts deleted? Those were awesome.For being off-topic, duh.
Those were the posts deemed off topic. Genie binding elemental gems and those were the posts deemed off topic?
The argument being made was that it is easier to get a creature from another plane to give you unlimited wishes than it is to get a +4 sword, and the counter commentary about needing interplanar border patrol and customs inspection was off topic?
I wish they were still up. And so apparently if I were able to cast 6th level spells they would be.
It is all cool, as long as no one has +4 weapons, because that is complete BS.
Why were all the "Planar Tariff" posts deleted? Those were awesome.
Legal is legal. You wanna cast summon monster and get tons of free everburning torches knock yourself out. You wanna bypass the standard limits for magic item purchases in the game, then you gotta ask real nice-like. Especially if you attack someone else doing something that is entirely reasonable and do-able in the game as is.
Also, yeah, money is easy to get in the game at high levels through many, many methods. Fabricate, Summon Monster, lesser Planar Binding, and more all allow you to easy break wealth by level with little difficulty at all without direct GM intervention. Of course, since you can't purchase items that are significantly powerful relative to those levels however, the money is difficult to use to "buy power". It's kind of a beautiful balance in a way. Suddenly money becomes more of a plot device, and time vs plot becomes more of an issue.
It's why every party should have a few item creationists, to get your last few +1s for the big leagues. You can't rely on just buying them.
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+5 to all stats at relatively little cost is a big deal. The tomes are priced the way they are because that is the expected balanced price.I confess I have to agree with Lorekeeper on this subject. I wouldn't allow it in my games, but that's my opinion and how I choose to run.]
Even without this, Ashiel did have a point that the monk's investment in wisdom does not, currently, justify itself in terms of return. The paladin gets a lot more out of charisma than the monk gets out of wisdom, for example, yet the monk also has to invest in dexterity and constitution to a greater extent than the paladin.
This is assume Stunning Fist never works and Ki has little value.
Neither of which is true or accounted for.
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Also, did you make your perception check TOZ. I never saw if you saw.Clearly I did not, especially with the +20 bonus to Stealth when invisibility was cast on it. :)
Why would the people of two continents be invisibly shaking their fists at you? That is just crazy talk.
On topic, Kirthfinder monk was full BaB as the main fix? I don't remember and I am to lazy to look.
No I got it, getting genies to grant unlimited wishes at 11 level or so= totally doable.
Finding a merchant in Absalom with +4 items = Impossible.
Logic is flawless. I agree 100% Kudos to you!
I don't know anything about Absalom. I'm talking about Metropolises as defined in the Core Rulebook and the core rules on purchasing magic items in a standard game.
Of course, I've said that already, but no one ever hears.
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No I got it, getting genies to grant unlimited wishes at 11 level or so= totally doable.
Finding a merchant in Absalom with +4 items = Impossible.
Logic is flawless. I agree 100% Kudos to you!
It is for this reason, and many others that basing the game upon sound economic foundations is one of my main wishes for Pathfinder 2nd Edition. Whether it involves transitioning to a non-precious metals economy after a certain point, or figures out a way to make everything work, it'd be nice for a whole lot of subsystems to work well together without producing silly results on a fairly regular basis.
I find common sense and a strong GM hand works just fine.
Loophole seekers will always find loopholes. This is why I prefer to play with gamers than rules lawyers.