Grave Knight Antipaladin with a fire immunity item and a +6 CHA item is pretty solid.
-Race-
Human-Classes-
Fighter (Lore Warden) 14/ Monk (Monk of the Four Winds / Monk of the Sacred Mountain) 3/ Shadow Dancer (Prestige Class) 3-Stats-
STR 14 (+6 magic item) = 20
DEX 16 (+4 leveling)(+6 magic item) = 26
CON 15 (+2 racial)(+1 leveling) = 18
INT 14
WIS 10
CHA 08-Saves-
fort 22
ref 22
will 13ac 47 (+5 combat expertise)(+3 fighting defensively) = 55
touch 24 (+5 combat expertise)(+3 fighting defensively) = 32
flat-footed 29to hit with unarmed attacks with weapon finesse 26 (-4 combat expertise)(-1 fighting defensively) = 21
-Traits-
Threatening Defender-Feat / Level Progression-
F01) Shield Focus, Combat Reflexes, Stand Still
F02) Combat Expertise, Weapon Finesse
M03) Elemental Fist, Dodge, Crane Style
M04) Toughness, Deflect Arrows
F05) Missile Shield
F06) Crane Wing
F07) Saving Shield
F08) Bodyguard
F09) Crane Riposte
F10) Greater Shield Focus
F11) Disruptive
F12) Spellbreaker
F13) Pin Down
F14) Ray Shield
F15) Draconic Defender
F16) Mobility
M17) Monastic Legacy
S18) NONE
S19) Deepsight
M20) NONE-Magic Gear-
Bracers of Armor(+8)
Shield (+5 Arrow Catching, Arrow Deflection)
Ring of Protection (+5)
Ring of Regeneration
Amulet of Natural Armor(+5)
Belt of Physical Might (+6 str / +6 dex)
Cloak of Resistance (+5)-Tanking Method-
Fight with caster standing behind me since any thing that enters my threaten area will not be able to exit my threaten are via Stand Still and Pin Down as well all incoming missile attacks would veer towards me via Arrow Catching. When making an attack action fight defensively and use combat expertise to up personal ac and grant 1 adjacent party member a natural armor bonus equal to the dodge bonus from combat expertise and fighting defensively via Draconic Defender. Use AoO to grant aid another ac to an adjacent party member via Bodyguard and an immediate action grant shield bonus via Saving Shield. Negate 1 melee attack, 1 ranged spell attack, and 3...
I like this build a LOT, but how do you manage to get Shield focus on level 1 if the Lore Warden Archetype does not allow for Shield Proficiency?
But there are multiple feats in this build revolving around using a shield - right off the bat: shield focus -> requires shield proficiency so it's a no go, or I am missing something...
how about the warlord? i know its 3rd party, but it seems like a pretty great tank to me
Crane Style Monk with a wand of Mage Armor and the Barkskin Qinggong ability. This is a solid and uncomplicated build.
A Multiclass Monk/Fighter/Duelist/Aldori Swordlord with Parry, Cranestyle, and the Aldori Steel net abilities. Oh, and a wand of mage armor, a wand of Iron Beard, and antagonize. This is ridiculous but -awesome- build. Your AC will soar into the 50's and maybe even 60's and you'll do respectable damage, to boot.
I had an idea for a tank.
Normally the tanks problem is that he tends to be ignored if his defences are too good.
So what about a tank that's not only tough himself but who gives protection to his comrades as well?
The halfling feat line starting with cautious fighter increases your dodge bonus when fighting defensively and the second feat, blundering defence, gives half your dodge bonus from fighting defensively to adjacent allies as luck bonus.
This combined with crane style gives you a dodge bonus of +6 and adjacent allies a luck bonus to AC of +3 with only a -2 to hit. If using a blocking (not defending) weapon your bonus would be even one higher.
I would combine that with the suicidal trait (gained via adopted) and the defensive strategist trait.
To get easy access to crane style dip into master of many styles monk, for many feats be fighter for the rest.
this thread would be helpful, and here's a neat barbarian build thread
A Multiclass Monk/Fighter/Duelist/Aldori Swordlord with Parry, Cranestyle, and the Aldori Steel net abilities. Oh, and a wand of mage armor, a wand of Iron Beard, and antagonize. This is ridiculous but -awesome- build. Your AC will soar into the 50's and maybe even 60's and you'll do respectable damage, to boot.
currently with BoA, amulet of natural armor and ring of protection (all +5) i'm clocking it in at 45 (50 when using combat expertise), so i could believe 50 or 60 with proper buffs.
not counting any abilities (other than the int and wis to AC ones from monk and duelist) or feats (other than dodge and combat expertise) so far. and crane/snake or crane/archon styles on top of it is hilarious.
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Sorry its been a while i just sucked up the penalty for using the shield and vergot to state that. Also monk levels were add for free feats. If the shield penalty is a bother than u can just toss out the 2 levels of Shadow Dancer and place levels in say Paladin which gives u prof with shield but u would lose the 120ft darkvision which was the only reason i put that class on for was to see things coming at me at night.
Sorry its been a while i just sucked up the penalty for using the shield and vergot to state that. Also monk levels were add for free feats. If the shield penalty is a bother than u can just toss out the 2 levels of Shadow Dancer and place levels in say Paladin which gives u prof with shield but u would lose the 120ft darkvision which was the only reason i put that class on for was to see things coming at me at night.
I am ok with soaking up the penalty for the shield, my main problem is that taking shield focus feat (in this case for your build it is on level one) has the pre-req of being proficient with shield. Thus it is simply not possible to take that feat until you actually dip in a class that has such proficiency.
Or am I looking at this wrong?
Great ideas everyone o.o
I made two completely different things. If you're talking about sheer Armor Class, I made a halfling monk. it sucked mechanically. had str 5, con 9. but dex and wis were maximized. With the set of max items, its AC reached 70s. Result? It sucked. even as a tank. AC doens't make a tank.
On the other hand, I made a Tower Shield Figther archetype with antogonize and stalwart defender intercept. Basicly, it had hundreds of life points, DR 6 and was there to defend their party members. The AC was high, but not nearly as high as the monk, but the enemies couldn't not attack him.
If you stop and think, anyone with a Displacement wand can defend as much as a high AC char. A true tank may have low AC and a disturblingly high life, and be there to his comrades. I made a mistake with the halfling monk, but learned it.
I have a build here...12 Invulnerable Barbarian, 2 Oracle (Metal, Lame), 4 Rage Prophet, 2 Two-Handed Fighter. Vital Strike plus furious finish every turn (plus sharpened accuracy every time), plus a lot of things to bump his initial damage output (either permanent enlarge person, or a Tiefling's Oversized Limbs ability, plus the metal oracle's Lead Blades spell, Impact weapon enhancement, etc.), and at 20th level, he's swinging at about +40 (ignoring concealment, treating total concealment as regular concealment, ignore all cover except total cover) that does around 200 points of damage. It's only one swing per round, so while it's good dps, he's not great against crowds. And tank wise, he'll have around 370 hp, 6/- DR, 30+ AC at the higher levels. And since he only needs one swing per round, he can do it mounted while his mount moves. Or, again if he's a Tiefling, his tail could pull out a potion as a swift action, drink it as a move action (accelerated drinker trait), go into a rage as a free, swing your sword ending the rage, rinse, repeat. If the pots were healing potions, he could be really difficult to finally take down.
There is no in-game aggro mechanic as you would conceptualize it in an MMO, so you have to build it into your character with feats like Antagonize or with abilities that allow you to control/limit an enemy's movement, increase your AoOs, reach, size, etc.
AC is nice, but it doesn't matter if your GM just moves the baddies away from you to that nice squishy bard, sorcerer or wizard.
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-Race-
Human
-Classes-
Fighter (Lore Warden) 14/ Monk (Monk of the Four Winds / Monk of the Sacred Mountain) 2/ Ranger 2/ Rogue 2
-Stats-
STR 14 (+6 magic item) = 20
DEX 16 (+4 leveling)(+6 magic item) = 26
CON 15 (+2 racial)(+1 leveling) = 18
INT 14
WIS 10
CHA 08
-Saves-
fort 22
ref 22
will 13
ac 47 (+5 combat expertise)(+3 fighting defensively) = 55
touch 24 (+5 combat expertise)(+3 fighting defensively) = 32
flat-footed 29
to hit with unarmed attacks with weapon finesse 26 (-4 combat expertise)(-1 fighting defensively) = 21
-Traits-
Threatening Defender
-Feat / Level Progression-
R01) Combat Reflexes, Stand Still
R02) Shield Focus
M03) Elemental Fist, Dodge, Crane Style
M04) Toughness, Deflect Arrows
F05) Missile Shield, Weapon Finesse
F06) Combat Expertise
F07) Crane Wing
F08) Saving Shield
F09) Bodyguard
F10) Crane Riposte
F12) Greater Shield Focus
F13) Disruptive
F14) Spellbreaker
F15) Pin Down
F16) Ray Shield
F17) Draconic Defender
F18) Mobility
R19) Spring Attack
R20) Talent - Combat Trick (Whirlwind Attack)
-Magic Gear-
Bracers of Armor(+8)
Shield (+5 Arrow Catching, Arrow Deflection)
Ring of Protection (+5)
Ring of Regeneration
Amulet of Natural Armor(+5)
Belt of Physical Might (+6 str / +6 dex)
Cloak of Resistance (+5)
-Tanking Method-
Fight with caster standing behind me since any thing that enters my threaten area will not be able to exit my threaten are via Stand Still and Pin Down as well all incoming missile attacks would veer towards me via Arrow Catching. When making an attack action fight defensively and use combat expertise to up personal ac and grant 1 adjacent party member a natural armor bonus equal to the dodge bonus from combat expertise and fighting defensively via Draconic Defender. Use AoO to grant aid another ac to an adjacent party member via Bodyguard and an immediate action grant shield bonus via Saving Shield. Negate 1 melee attack, 1 ranged spell attack, and 3 ranged missile attacks a round via Crane Wing, Ray Shield, Deflect Arrows, Missile Shield, and Arrow Deflection.
I dont. The character is there to guard allies and soak damage which it can do easily with its feat combo. The Whirlwind attack is just for fighting low level army type mobs which i have done on other characters in the past.
What about opponents with reach or ranged attaks... pretty much anything large sized or bigger or capable of casting spells?
Negate 1 melee attack, 1 ranged spell attack, and 3 ranged missile attacks a round via Crane Wing, Ray Shield, Deflect Arrows, Missile Shield, and Arrow Deflection.
If they target you. The point is protecting your friends and allies... if you don't pose much of a threat there is no reason to attack you, and with reach attacks, ranged attacks or spells they can reach past you to the greater threats without difficulty, no?
.The ability to threaten an additional 5' is a woefully under-utilized aspect of tanking, and if you're fighting foes at range you need some means of contributing to the battle...
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The following is a level 20 build for summoner that can literally fight butt naked with out any items and makes a great tank.
snip
You can't take the Extra Evolution feat 5 times. You can take it one time for every 5 levels you achieve as a summoner (so 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th), but you don't get a feat slot at 20th level.
Guys, how BAD is it really a straight up fighter wielding a one handed weapon (lets say for example something that crits a lot, I'm not even getting into much detail - a falchion for example) at dealing damage..?
I'm not going for much mechanics but, isn't it something like... say 12th level:
Weapon... dunno... let's say straight up +3: +3 damage
Weapon training : +2 damage
Power Attack: +6 damage
Weapon spec: +2 damage
Greater weapon spec: +2 damage
STR... say.. 24: +7 damage
I'm sure I am forgetting something, and I am not accounting for the fact that for this only like 3 feats were spent - besides all the other mayhem he can wrack with all the other feats available, straight up this is still 2d4+22.
I admit I am not very experienced at high level gaming but... is this that bad, that enemies will simply ignore you?
Now imagine that he follows the Sword and board logic, since he insists on carrying a shield for tanking. Meaning more attacks and more damage.
Is this bad enough that you will be ignored?
Apologies for the scattered post, these are just some thoughts I am throwing around :D
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Guys, how BAD is it really a straight up fighter wielding a one handed weapon (lets say for example something that crits a lot, I'm not even getting into much detail - a falchion for example) at dealing damage..?
I'm not going for much mechanics but, isn't it something like... say 12th level:
Weapon... dunno... let's say straight up +3: +3 damage
Weapon training : +2 damage
Power Attack: +6 damage
Weapon spec: +2 damage
Greater weapon spec: +2 damage
STR... say.. 24: +7 damageI'm sure I am forgetting something, and I am not accounting for the fact that for this only like 3 feats were spent - besides all the other mayhem he can wrack with all the other feats available, straight up this is still 2d4+22.
I admit I am not very experienced at high level gaming but... is this that bad, that enemies will simply ignore you?
Now imagine that he follows the Sword and board logic, since he insists on carrying a shield for tanking. Meaning more attacks and more damage.
Is this bad enough that you will be ignored?
Apologies for the scattered post, these are just some thoughts I am throwing around :D
Well, for starters, a falchion is a two-handed weapon. As are most decently strong weapons. Not only do you get more damage out of wielding a weapon in two hands, most of the weapons themselves are better.
If you want an 18-20/x2 crit range with a one-handed weapon, you need to use a scimitar or a rapier, both of which deal 1d6.
So you're dealing 1d6+22. Nice damage. But if you were wielding a real falchion, you'd be dealing 2d4+28 instead. 6 extra damage per attack, that's the equivalent of 3 extra Weapon Specialization feats.
There is one problem with this idea of the best "tank".
This is not an MMO, tanks are not needed. If you want to be the melee guy, cool. 2 hander. dual wield, sword and board, feel free. If you want to be more defensive cool but do not base a guy on it to the exclusion of actually causing damage.
I am personally paying a duelist type character right now who has crazy high AC and has crane wing, parry and a few other tricks but damage is still my main point in the group, the barbarian and I are constantly arguing over who is the most combat effective, he is going the big soaking barbarian with Come and Get Me when we hit 12.
I would not call us tanks, sure we can take a hit and stay alive in combat, but even as tough as we are any caster will eat us alive. It is just the way of the game. We handle the physical threats the casters handle the magical threats, thus is the way of the game.
i'll have to say i disagree with you, but it's good you're having fun and interesting games and playing unique characters.
while there's no definite aggro mechanic (barring antagonize, a few spells, etc.), there's no aggro mechanic in real life either: if you want people to choose to hit you over your friends, you have to make yourself an inviting target--usually done in PF by have a middling AC, good reach, and dealing enough damage (or causing enough control) that you can't be ignored. with your team assisting you (with battlefield control, good positioning, etc.), you can force opponents to have to got through you if they want to reach your friends, which a "tank" can usually capitalize on for great effect.
What would you say constitute the best "sticky tactics" for a tank that wishes to carry out such role? Trip + Combat Reflexes, the Step-UP chain? Shield Slam + Bull rush combo? A mix of all these?
Now... I have one other question, unless coupled with stuff like quick draw, using a reach weapon actually bars you from using a shield right?
Guys, how BAD is it really a straight up fighter wielding a one handed weapon (lets say for example something that crits a lot, I'm not even getting into much detail - a falchion for example) at dealing damage..?
I'm not going for much mechanics but, isn't it something like... say 12th level:
Weapon... dunno... let's say straight up +3: +3 damage
Weapon training : +2 damage
Power Attack: +6 damage
Weapon spec: +2 damage
Greater weapon spec: +2 damage
STR... say.. 24: +7 damageI'm sure I am forgetting something, and I am not accounting for the fact that for this only like 3 feats were spent - besides all the other mayhem he can wrack with all the other feats available, straight up this is still 2d4+22.
I admit I am not very experienced at high level gaming but... is this that bad, that enemies will simply ignore you?
Now imagine that he follows the Sword and board logic, since he insists on carrying a shield for tanking. Meaning more attacks and more damage.
Is this bad enough that you will be ignored?
Apologies for the scattered post, these are just some thoughts I am throwing around :D
A good tank needs to have layers of protection - not just a high AC but high saves, possibly damage resistance, self-healing or a way to avoid attacks comepletely as well as the ability to stay mobile so that he's not easily negated by battlefield control or obstacles. Traditional fighters tend to have very low will and reflex saves which makes them somewhat one dimensional when it comes to tanking.
Straight up fighters make tremendous fighters, but not particularly good tanks.
Dot.
What would you say constitute the best "sticky tactics" for a tank that wishes to carry out such role? Trip + Combat Reflexes, the Step-UP chain? Shield Slam + Bull rush combo? A mix of all these?
Now... I have one other question, unless coupled with stuff like quick draw, using a reach weapon actually bars you from using a shield right?
3 levels of phalanx soldier fighter nets you the ability to wield a polearm in one hand while wearing a shield. also, can you shield bash with a buckler?
@Wiggz: I agree completely - though it does seem to be a lot of stuff to combine, making me wonder if it is even possible. It would seem that not only would you have to combine multiple classes, but without losing the array of necessary feats to invest to keep your foes pinned down, or at least damage or impede him in such a way that they cannot ignore you.
On a side note, I am basing myself on a recent post of yours that I saw regarding a paladin tank - Oath of Vengeance/Divine Defender with a ton of lay on hands - to try and play a paladin tank :D
@AndIMustMask: Yep, the phalanx soldier would be the way to go. Not sure about bashing with the buckler though...
Looking at, for example Rogue Eidolon's suggestion for a sword and board fighter - only the first say... 8 levels:
Level 1: Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Shield Bash, Power Attack
Level 2: Weapon Focus [Scimitar]
Level 3: Iron Will
Level 4: Step Up
Level 5: Combat Reflexes
Level 6: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 7: Shield Slam
Level 8: Improved Bull Rush
It would seem that this guy would be able to keep up many melee situations, but as Wiggz pointed out, there seems to be in fact a lack of options in, for example, closing in quickly with a caster that's raining death on the group, an archer, etc.
It makes me wonder if the best option in the end isn't following a more hybrid combo like the magus, or an oracle of battle, or a cleric for the added versatility. But the loss of feats seems too be to steep, bogging you down on the alternatives to actually keep the enemy focused on you.
Depends what you want.
A triple threat has High A.C., High Saves, Good HP! Good attack/Damage and some way to deal with casters either via magic or means of closing with a target.
Hard to do all that at once.
Easiest is a dwarf (glory of old trait and steel soul feat) for +5 racial vs magic.
Add either Crane style monk (wield a tongfa or 9 section chain)- for high base saves, flurry for damage, Crane style for AC and uses dimension step to close.
Or
Magus for high fort/will, spells, spike damage, good Armor (Mitheral Agile Jarring Breastplate with Armored Kilt ), G.tr infernal healing
Or
Witchunter inquisitor, for better saves, gtr bane, healing, shields etc.
@Wiggz: I agree completely - though it does seem to be a lot of stuff to combine, making me wonder if it is even possible. It would seem that not only would you have to combine multiple classes, but without losing the array of necessary feats to invest to keep your foes pinned down, or at least damage or impede him in such a way that they cannot ignore you.
On a side note, I am basing myself on a recent post of yours that I saw regarding a paladin tank - Oath of Vengeance/Divine Defender with a ton of lay on hands - to try and play a paladin tank :D
@AndIMustMask: Yep, the phalanx soldier would be the way to go. Not sure about bashing with the buckler though...
Looking at, for example Rogue Eidolon's suggestion for a sword and board fighter - only the first say... 8 levels:
Level 1: Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Shield Bash, Power Attack
Level 2: Weapon Focus [Scimitar]
Level 3: Iron Will
Level 4: Step Up
Level 5: Combat Reflexes
Level 6: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 7: Shield Slam
Level 8: Improved Bull RushIt would seem that this guy would be able to keep up many melee situations, but as Wiggz pointed out, there seems to be in fact a lack of options in, for example, closing in quickly with a caster that's raining death on the group, an archer, etc.
It makes me wonder if the best option in the end isn't following a more hybrid combo like the magus, or an oracle of battle, or a cleric for the added versatility. But the loss of feats seems too be to steep, bogging you down on the alternatives to actually keep the enemy focused on you.
I really liked that Paladin character, but another example would be the Human Barbarian I designed with very solid AC, ridiculous DR (13/- at 12th level, 24/- at 20th) and high saves due to Superstition... he even weilded a reach weapon, could Pounce and had some ranged ability. It can certainly be done without getting too 'out there' mixing up classes, its just not what a traditional Fighter is built for.
To be honest, the real best tank is probably a Master Summoner, but they fill so many roles so well, its hard to pidgeon hole them into any one option.
Yep, I am aware of that barbarian build - I am actually playing it on a Mythic Playtest campaign and I must say that.... DAMN!!! That bad boy HURTS!! Which is always a good way to attract the bad guys attention. The only "issue" so far with him is the DR stacking... Opinions seem divided.
Probably that is the frontliner I most fun have had so far but then again, I was trying to find out what could be built around the fighter and if, in the end it would allow me more options to make the enemies stick to me, besides just hurting them a lot that is :D
@STR Ranger: Thank you for your input STR, I am a fan of your guides and your overall posts here on the Paizo boards - you actually have piked my curiosity A LOT regarding the Inquisitor - I am on the process of building one (starting at level 1 + 1 Mythic Tier) but I still worry that the options to make the enemies stick to me may be lacking, due to feat shortage... Thoughts?
If you're thinking about fulfilling the role of "Tank" in the MMO sense, that is a character who is supposed to not only soak up damage but also draw in attacks as well, then in my opinion there is only one real option:
A Paladin with a High Charisma, in full plate adamantine armor, with the Sacred Shield Archetype. Throw in the Antagonize feat and you're golden - a nearly perfect Pathfinder Tank.
Definitely stack your elemental resistances in any way that you can, noting that Resist Energy: Communal is on the Paladin's spell list.
Yep, I am aware of that barbarian build - I am actually playing it on a Mythic Playtest campaign and I must say that.... DAMN!!! That bad boy HURTS!! Which is always a good way to attract the bad guys attention. The only "issue" so far with him is the DR stacking... Opinions seem divided.
I haven't played around with the Mythic stuff at all, but the only DR I use in that build is what you get from Invulnerable Rager (1/2 levels), Improved Stalwart (2/+4 BAB) and the Increased DR Rage Powers all of which absolutely stack RAW.
If you're thinking about fulfilling the role of "Tank" in the MMO sense, that is a character who is supposed to not only soak up damage but also draw in attacks as well, then in my opinion there is only one real option:
A Paladin with a High Charisma, in full plate adamantine armor, with the Sacred Shield Archetype. Throw in the Antagonize feat and you're golden - a nearly perfect Pathfinder Tank.
Definitely stack your elemental resistances in any way that you can, noting that Resist Energy: Communal is on the Paladin's spell list.
@KaptainKrunch: I am glad you brought the Paladin Archetypes up - why would you say the option to go with should be the Sacred Shield Archetype vs. the Divine Defender for example?
@Wiggz: I hear ya Wiggz, from what I have seen so far, it seems there isn't much point in going the DR/Epic way in Mythic advancement with this Barbarian build - seems the best is to assume that the DR is taken care of with the class build, and use the remaining mythic abilities to complement those.
If you're thinking about fulfilling the role of "Tank" in the MMO sense, that is a character who is supposed to not only soak up damage but also draw in attacks as well, then in my opinion there is only one real option:
A Paladin with a High Charisma, in full plate adamantine armor, with the Sacred Shield Archetype. Throw in the Antagonize feat and you're golden - a nearly perfect Pathfinder Tank.
Definitely stack your elemental resistances in any way that you can, noting that Resist Energy: Communal is on the Paladin's spell list.
@KaptainKrunch: I am glad you brought the Paladin Archetypes up - why would you say the option to go with should be the Sacred Shield Archetype vs. the Divine Defender for example?
@Wiggz: I hear ya Wiggz, from what I have seen so far, it seems there isn't much point in going the DR/Epic way in Mythic advancement with this Barbarian build - seems the best is to assume that the DR is taken care of with the class build, and use the remaining mythic abilities to complement those.
I was under the impression that Bastion of Good halved all incoming damage, but it states "Attacks" which seems to exclude spells. Looking at Divine Defender, raising all saving throws could potentially have the same effect as halving damage for reflex based spells at least...
Giving up Mercy does remove your ability to address contingent situations though, but you DO get to keep your smite evil for helping the party with damage.
I think I'd still prefer the Sacred Shield.