I'm pretty certain I haven't, my DM I can tell is itching to take away my powers and may have already. While I know anything on this forum won't change his mind, or plain reason and logic for that matter, I'm interested personally.
I'm NG Paladin of Sarenrae. (House rule Paladin's can match deities alignment)
We're playing curse of the Kobold King. My actions up until now have been valiant and self sacrificing for the good of my party and those of Falcon's Hollow.
We approach the Monastery and come across a band of Kobolds. I approach with weapon sheathed and try to engage with them through sign language. No luck. One member of the party is anxious to start killing, I decide we will withdraw and let the Cleric memorise Comprehend Languages and try again the next day.
Again I enter, weapon sheathed, hands up in the air. I am fired at by a Kobold sentry. I deal non lethal damage to him and tie him up. I continue back to the main band of Kobolds and again try to engage them in conversation using sign language and allowing the cleric to relay instructions.
One tries to rush for the exit to alert the rest of the compound and I move to stop him. I am attacked and we battle it out with the kobolds. The cleric and myself had dealt some non lethal damage to begin with until our side started taking casualties.
At the end of the combat we tie up a survivor and I interrogate him, successfully intimidating him and trying to get him to speak. I am clear and concise. He does not say anything other than 'Don't kill me'.
I give him a clear 5 second count down. And then judge him with my sword, running him through.
My reasoning is this:
I had tried everything in my power to communicate peacefully with the Kobolds. I was attacked twice and both times kept my cool. However, ultimately there are five human children being held captive and time is short.
I offered them redemption and they turned away from it so they were redeemed by my blade.
Opinions please?
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To me, killing an unarmed prisoner is murder. Period. I personally believe he is correct. A real paladin would've taken the kobold back to receive justice at court (as silly as that seems).
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You killed an unarmed prisoner who surrendered to your Paladin?
If yes... you are no longer a Paladin
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To me, killing an unarmed prisoner is murder. Period. I personally believe he is correct. A real paladin would've taken the kobold back to receive justice at court (as silly as that seems).
Oh that always goes like that:
1. Paladin drags the kobold towards the nearest settlement
2. City Guards headshot the Kobold before the town gates
3. An argument breaks out if the Paladin did fail due to not saving the life of the theoretically innocent (innocent until proven guilty and all that) kobold.
4. Somebody posts the stiuation at Paizo forum
5. Gorbacz notices the thread
6. ...
7. Profit
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I`m with FireclawDrake on this, i`m afraid. Showing mercy to the Kobold would possibly have been more useful. You could have used him as a messenger to convey your demands to the kobold leaders. If they still didn`t respond, then the time for talking is over.
As to whether you should lose your powers, thats tougher. If you honestly thought that you were obeying the edicts of your faith and code, then it would be harsh for the D.M. to have you fall.
You killed an unarmed prisoner who surrendered to your Paladin?
If yes... you are no longer a Paladin
No, the Kobold never surrendered. He was offered a peaceful way out and he chose to fight me. I dealt non-lethal damage and brought him back to question him.
He continued to NOT co-operate. I offered him a way out, he chose not to take it, he died.
You killed an unarmed prisoner who surrendered to your Paladin?
If yes... you are no longer a Paladin
No, the Kobold never surrendered. He was offered a peaceful way out and he chose to fight me. I dealt non-lethal damage and brought him back to question him.
He continued to NOT co-operate. I offered him a way out, he chose not to take it, he died.
To quote you: At the end of the combat we tie up a survivor and I interrogate him, successfully intimidating him and trying to get him to speak. I am clear and concise. He does not say anything other than 'Don't kill me'.
You killed an unarmed prisoner who surrendered to your ex-Paladin
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Of course, Sarenrae herself is written as feeling like this about redemption:
"She brushes off insults and deflects attacks, patiently trying to convince those who perceive her as an enemy that their belief is false. She is no victim, and once it is clear that her words and power are wasted on those who refuse to listen and believe, she responds to violence in kind with swift metal and scorching light."
Also, the sample paladin code for paladins of Sarenrae in Faiths of Purity writes this:
"I will redeem the ignorant with my words and my actions. If they will not turn toward the light, I will redeem them by the sword."
So, I think you might have done enough to stay within your paladin code. I suppose it will depend on if you and your GM feels you were patient enough in attempting to redeem with words before redeeming by sword.
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No you did not break your code. The idea that "Paladins are a law enforcement officer" is ridiculous. Paladins are more honorable, are there for many of the issues and more.
Paladins are far more "Judge Dredd" than "Adam-12"
What is the Paladin going to do? Take the Kobold back to a city where the citizens will grab the Kobold and string him up themselves? Or they take the Kobold in, and the Kobold gets a trial. The judge is a sniveling nephew of the real power in the area who wants to make a unscrupulous deal with the Kobolds to only attack his rivals caravans.
No, a Paladin is not a machine. They have the tools to mete out justice. OBTW, Justice=/=Law. Law is a part of Justice as is Good.
Here's a question, what is a Paladin supposed to do with an evil mage who surrenders and demands to be taken to the castle/town/etc, along with his minions of course as he wants them to get a fair trial, who's going to hold such a menagerie?
If you try to impose late 20th/early 21st Morality on Paladins, you're going to fail. Paladins are given the tools to smite evil. If a Paladin takes a prisoner via force and finds them guilty, they can dispatch the prisoner swiftly.
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To me, killing an unarmed prisoner is murder. Period. I personally believe he is correct. A real paladin would've taken the kobold back to receive justice at court (as silly as that seems).
Remember the Paladin isn't LAWFUL good, he's NEUTRAL good. He'll do what's right without regard to the law. If he felt leaving the Kobald alive would endager the people he's trying to save, killing it would be in line with that alignment.
To me Are's post is really the most compelling argument. I originally thought that he should be an ex-paladin, but after reading that, I think the OP did the right thing.
Of course, Sarenrae herself is written as feeling like this about redemption:
"She brushes off insults and deflects attacks, patiently trying to convince those who perceive her as an enemy that their belief is false. She is no victim, and once it is clear that her words and power are wasted on those who refuse to listen and believe, she responds to violence in kind with swift metal and scorching light."
Also, the sample paladin code for paladins of Sarenrae in Faiths of Purity writes this:
"I will redeem the ignorant with my words and my actions. If they will not turn toward the light, I will redeem them by the sword."
I would have to say you did break your code in more than one way. If you had killed the kobold in battle that would have been one thing, but you took him prisoner. Once he was your prisoner that created an expectation that you treat him properly. The five second countdown does not cut it since you obviously are not under that much of a time limit if you can afford to have your cleric rememorize spells.
That brings me to the second violation. I am not familiar with the adventure but it seems like you are trying to rescue children from the kobolds. So here you have a group of kobolds that are holding some children as prisoners but instead of doing everything you can to rescue them you let them stay captive for a full day after you encountered the kobolds. During this time anything could have happened to the children. Failure to act was your second sin. There is a saying that all evil needs to triumph is the inaction of good men.
As to judging the kobold that is more tricky. If you are a legitimate authority engaged in your duties then you have a right to judge him. But if that was the case the delay means you were shirking your duties. If you are not a legitimate authority then you do not have the right to judge him especially if you are playing a paladin of Sarenrae. One of the biggest teachings of Sarenrae is forgiveness and redemption.
The good news is that Sarenrae will forgive you. Pay for the Atonement and pay more attention to you duties next time.
I agree that the crucial point here is this particular Paladin is NG. A NG Paladin (which is an oxymoron in my opinion but that's another discussion) isn't going to be held to the usual high standards. He's stayed within the code as written in Faiths of Purity and the law isn't at issue. There seems to be no reason for him to lose his paladinhood or even receive a warning.
If his DM allowed him to play a NG Paladin in the first place and is now itching to take away his powers, the DM has little ground to stand on. At the very least he's being remarkably unfair.
So here you have a group of kobolds that are holding some children as prisoners but instead of doing everything you can to rescue them you let them stay captive for a full day after you encountered the kobolds.
That's a good point. I think that's more of an issue than executing the captive kobold.
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You killed an unarmed prisoner who surrendered to your Paladin?
If yes... you are no longer a Paladin
No, the Kobold never surrendered. He was offered a peaceful way out and he chose to fight me. I dealt non-lethal damage and brought him back to question him.
He continued to NOT co-operate. I offered him a way out, he chose not to take it, he died.
To quote you: At the end of the combat we tie up a survivor and I interrogate him, successfully intimidating him and trying to get him to speak. I am clear and concise. He does not say anything other than 'Don't kill me'.
You killed an unarmed prisoner who surrendered to your ex-Paladin
Not at all. He meted out "High Justice". It would've been obvious that the Kobold was only into saving his own skin, nothing else mattered. The Kobold would've happily sliced the Paladin's and his companions' throats.
Here's something that I think you should think about: Paladins ARE NOT COPS. They are the closest thing to real unbiased judges and juries, better than 99% of all other classes and 99.9999999% of the hereditary nobles that so often sit on the Bench.
So as a DM, all one has to do to keep a Paladin away is have a moderately powered minion say "I surrender" so the Paladin has to take them back to a city where they could be tried. If the Paladin sheds hireling to take them, have the "prisoner" followed by a few more moderately powered henchmen, kill the hirelings, run back and have another "surrender" until there are no more hirelings and the Paladin has to go back by himself, don't kill him as their a useful idiot at that time, but kill the rest of the party who is down a full member!
Paladin's aren't, or actually shouldn't be, stupid. They should be wiser than intelligent but stupid is out of the question
Paladins are Knights ordained by a church they are expected to obey the edicts of the church and no one else. The whole LG Paladin comes from the fact that the entire TSR team were devoted Christians.
Personally your mistake is more of the waiting to get involved. You should have moved a lot quicker. And you killed a prisoner who couldn't properly defend themselves. If you really have time to lolly-gag then you had time to wine and dine the Kobold.
I would have you suffer a -2 penalty to all checks until you redeem yourself. Say by showing kindness to the Kobolds in an unexpected way. Note: this is assuming that it was a short interrogation. If you used Diplomacy and spent a full day trying to get information from them that is one thing.
You killed an unarmed prisoner who surrendered to your Paladin?
If yes... you are no longer a Paladin
No, the Kobold never surrendered. He was offered a peaceful way out and he chose to fight me. I dealt non-lethal damage and brought him back to question him.
He continued to NOT co-operate. I offered him a way out, he chose not to take it, he died.
To quote you: At the end of the combat we tie up a survivor and I interrogate him, successfully intimidating him and trying to get him to speak. I am clear and concise. He does not say anything other than 'Don't kill me'.
You killed an unarmed prisoner who surrendered to your ex-Paladin
Not at all. He meted out "High Justice". It would've been obvious that the Kobold was only into saving his own skin, nothing else mattered. The Kobold would've happily sliced the Paladin's and his companions' throats.
Here's something that I think you should think about: Paladins ARE NOT COPS. They are the closest thing to real unbiased judges and juries, better than 99% of all other classes and 99.9999999% of the hereditary nobles that so often sit on the Bench.
So as a DM, all one has to do to keep a Paladin away is have a moderately powered minion say "I surrender" so the Paladin has to take them back to a city where they could be tried. If the Paladin sheds hireling to take them, have the "prisoner" followed by a few more moderately powered henchmen, kill the hirelings, run back and have another "surrender" until there are no more hirelings and the Paladin has to go back by himself, don't kill him as their a useful idiot at that time, but kill the rest of the party who is down a full member!
Paladin's aren't, or actually shouldn't be, stupid. They should be wiser than intelligent but stupid is out of the question
If the Paladin had the right of high justice then his failure to act in the first place was his first sin. He should have captured the kobolds instead of withdrawing to begin with. Killing the kobold is not the sin how he killed it and the timing is a problem.
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Fundamentally it all boils down on interpretation of alignment and what this Paladin Code means in play.
This is what I use and get my players to read so we all have the base starting point on alignment
And using that the Paladin has violated three maybe four fundamentals of the NG alignment.
Obviously this is what would happen in my game. The OP asked for an opinion and I have given it. In my game he would now be a fighter without bonus feats.
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I would have to say you did break your code in more than one way. If you had killed the kobold in battle that would have been one thing, but you took him prisoner. Once he was your prisoner that created an expectation that you treat him properly. The five second countdown does not cut it since you obviously are not under that much of a time limit if you can afford to have your cleric rememorize spells.
Prisoners can be killed for their crimes, even if they did surrender. The difference is a Paladin dispatches them quickly, no suffering that is the expectation.
The thing that really bothers me is that the Paladin DID have a time limit which you chided him here:
That brings me to the second violation. I am not familiar with the adventure but it seems like you are trying to rescue children from the kobolds. So here you have a group of kobolds that are holding some children as prisoners but instead of doing everything you can to rescue them you let them stay captive for a full day after you encountered the kobolds. During this time anything could have happened to the children. Failure to act was your second sin. There is a saying that all evil needs to triumph is the inaction of good men.So damed if he runs the Kobold though damned if he doesn't? Wow. You'd be most correct if you stuck to this point about the time constraint. Still there is something to be said with going in with some sort of plan of action. Running in at the end with your resources depleted, exhausted and unaware of what you're getting yourself into might be okay for a CG Paladin, but for most Paladins, even a NG one, it is a recipe for disaster which adds roasted Paladin Ham to the dinner menu of the Kobolds who'd take a break from tender human kiddies
As to judging the kobold that is more tricky. If you are a legitimate authority engaged in your duties then you have a right to judge him.That's just it. Paladins ARE legitimate authorities when it comes to dispensing justice. Aside from LG/LN/NG Clerics, name another class that will at least obey the law if not understand special circumstances?
But if that was the case the delay means you were shirking your duties. If you are not a legitimate authority then you do not have the right to judge him especially if you are playing a paladin of Sarenrae. One of the biggest teachings of Sarenrae is forgiveness and redemption.
True but being a patsy is not. As this Kobold was almost certainly a willing and most likely gleefully and happily doing the bad deed perp of the crime, kidnapping and most likely are going to eat one, a few all, etc, the Paladin did it correctly
Had the Kobold been interested in redemption, saying something like, "I can help you get the human children", instead of mewing, "Don't kill me to save his own skin", and the Paladin killed him you may have a point. However, the Kobold MUST BE SQUEAKY CLEAN especially for the next week as anything less will show it's true colors
The good news is that Sarenrae will forgive you. Pay for the Atonement and pay more attention to you duties next time.
I agree that Sarenrae will forgive him but wonder what does he need forgiveness in this situation
If you're playing Crown of the Kobold King, in which you know that several children are hostages, why did you wait a day for the Cleric to prep Comprehend Languages?
I'm not seeing a definitive "PALADIN MUST FALL" problem here other than the houserule handwaving the alignment. I would, however, caution against delaying with innocents on the line. That is questionable at best.
@ Mysterious Stranger:
In regards to rescuing the children. My thinking was this:
The town that the children belong to and who have sent us on the mission have treated us extremely poorly, trying to kill us, lying to us, deceiving us, profiting off us, setting us up and plainly telling me they wanted to execute us.
I do not trust any of the authority in the town, and my intention was to find out why the kobolds had taken the children captive and negotiate between the two. However things as you have seen have clearly not gone to plan.
Please also be aware our party is level 2/3 and very little gold between us, our options were limited.
Thanks to everyone weighing in on this especially BB36 and Are.
I have been following the Paladin code for Sarenrae to what I believe is as close to its intent as possible. I'll quote a few of the tenets below which I think are applicable here:
I will redeem the ignorant with my words and my
actions. If they will not turn toward the light, I will
redeem them by the sword.
I will not abide evil, and will combat it with steel when
words are not enough. I do not flinch from my faith,
and do not fear embarrassment. My soul cannot be
bought for all the stars in the sky.
Ultimately it's up to you GM as to if you lost your powers. That is kind of the risk of the Paladin class. I think anytime you play a Paladin you should ask your GM what his interpretations are and even go through some examples like this one.
My personal ruling would be that you broke the Paladin's code. Your alignment is Neutral Good. Your expected to be better than the kobolds and turn the other check type of thing. Most of the justifications give for killing the Kobold I see here are not Good justifications, nor are the necessarily evil. Killing a dangerous prisoner for me falls somewhere in the middle. It's a neutral act, something that is done for the greater good, but is not good it's self.
For most classes this is not an issue as alignment is more of a guide line. But for the Paladin, as I said before, your expected to be better.
This is also why I tend to play Neutral aligned characters. They can act for the greater good, be good people most of the time, but don't have to worry about alignment shift when something needs to be done.
So here you have a group of kobolds that are holding some children as prisoners but instead of doing everything you can to rescue them you let them stay captive for a full day after you encountered the kobolds.That's a good point. I think that's more of an issue than executing the captive kobold.
I disagree that delay is a shirking of duties. In that case, everytime a paladin finds someone evil, they should rush them to commence talking/fighting. Sometimes it's tactically beneficial to wait until you're better prepared.
Consider a cop in a hostage situation: Constable Bob knows there are 6 kidnappers with a child barricaded in a hotel room. Constable Bob could walk up to the door, knock and politely ask them if they can talk about it. Congrats, Constable Bob is either dead, or heavily outnumbered, or the hostage is killed, or they're both dead.
Constable Bob can not approach the room, call in the hostage negotiator, and back-up, maybe even the SWAT team if neccessary. Now, here we have Constable Bob giving the kidnappers extra time, BUT I think we can all agree that this is a much better route than Constable Bob blustering in.
Based on the situation, I think the only big issue is killing an unarmed prisoner, but Ares touches on that nicely.
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Paladins do not = Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. They are divine representatives of their god(dess) that act as their instrument in the world. Personally I would have given the paladin kudos for trying to hard to cooperate with the kobolds in the first place, in particular since the lives of children are on the line.
However, this is the completely messed up part about playing this godawful class. Unlike any other class in the entire book, including clerics, this one is completely at the whim of the GM. Paladin PCs and GM have to have a conversation before the game starts to make sure they have the same idea about what a paladin's vows should be. I think they should make this a mandatory part of playing a paladin, it would save a lot of atonement spells and unhappy paladin PCs.
Here are some grey areas where GMs tend to differ with players:
Is the paladin supposed to be a goody two shoes at the expense of his party? Is he supposed to exemplify his god as more important than being LG? Is he supposed to follow the laws of his homeland over the laws of where he is now? Does he view the world through the eyes of the laws of his homeland or his deity? Depending on the answers to these, he either did a great job of being a paladin, or he screwed up.
For instance, regardless of GMs desires to screw paladins over with ridiculous moral issues like baby goblins, the reality is most human settlements in most campaign worlds would put them down, like rabid dogs that will eventually turn on you. If you worship Iomedae, she would likely approve. If you worship Sarenrae, she might wish to you attempt to raise them as followers of Sarenrae or turn them over to a your church so they could be redeemed.
IMHO, the OP did attempt several times to talk with the kobolds, and dealt non-lethal damage as soon as talks broke down, not once, but twice. Quite frankly, I have not met very many players who would do that. I think the key to the paladins intent lies in the non lethal response. Because children's lives were on the line, this is an easy situation.
If the kobold is returned to town to stand trial, he will likely be regarded as a monster or dangerous creature and killed outright, not put in jail, taken to court, or any other such nonsense, unless the GM has a special type of open free city where humanoids walk around with humans. If you let the kobold go, like you might if he were a wandering monster, he alerts his fellow kobolds and your party is more likely to fail in its mission.
So.... either the original mission is not in keeping with the acts of a paladin, or it is just and his actions served this cause. The worst I can see justified in doing to this paladin is make him say a few more prayers and maybe send him a nightmare as a warning to try harder next time.
This is not even addressing the fact the paladin in question is NG not LG...its a no brainer...
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If the Paladin had the right of high justice then his failure to act in the first place was his first sin. He should have captured the kobolds...
No, he should've just killed them. They've already shown their true colors and if Kobolds are as they are written up to be in the Bestiary or as they've been portrayed for such a long time, the kids are what's for dinner.
Sounds though this is a lose-lose situation for the Paladin. Act quickly=act rashly, lose Paladinhood
Act cautiously=act delay saving the kids, lose Paladinhood
Sorry but anybody who rushes into a combat situation where they don't know the lay of the land, where the prisoners are, etc, is foolish
The Paladin needs to act swiftly, but decisively and with knowledge (as best as possible) of what they are doing
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As far as making the paladin fall... really? over a kobold??? If you are a GM, please, make it an act of substance like murder of an complete innocent or slaughtering the congregation of his church to make him fall.
Sarenrae has spent an enormous amount of energy(spells and powers), time, and teachings on this paladin, and she is the goddess of basically benign forgiveness except in the face of unrelenting evil. Would she really strip the paladin of his powers and risk losing him to the dark side? I think not..
I would have to say you did break your code in more than one way. If you had killed the kobold in battle that would have been one thing, but you took him prisoner. Once he was your prisoner that created an expectation that you treat him properly. The five second countdown does not cut it since you obviously are not under that much of a time limit if you can afford to have your cleric rememorize spells.Prisoners can be killed for their crimes, even if they did surrender. The difference is a Paladin dispatches them quickly, no suffering that is the expectation.
The thing that really bothers me is that the Paladin DID have a time limit which you chided him here:
That brings me to the second violation. I am not familiar with the adventure but it seems like you are trying to rescue children from the kobolds. So here you have a group of kobolds that are holding some children as prisoners but instead of doing everything you can to rescue them you let them stay captive for a full day after you encountered the kobolds. During this time anything could have happened to the children. Failure to act was your second sin. There is a saying that all evil needs to triumph is the inaction of good men.So damed if he runs the Kobold though damned if he doesn't? Wow. You'd be most correct if you stuck to this point about the time constraint. Still there is something to be said with going in with some sort of plan of action. Running in at the end with your resources depleted, exhausted and unaware of what you're getting yourself into might be okay for a CG Paladin, but for most Paladins, even a NG one, it is a recipe for disaster which adds roasted Paladin Ham to the dinner menu of the Kobolds who'd take a break from tender human kiddiesAs to judging the kobold that is more tricky. If you are a legitimate authority engaged in your duties then you have a right to judge him.That's just it. Paladins ARE legitimate...
Failure to act swiftly is what he need forgiveness for. His first and most serious mistake was waiting for the cleric to rememorize spells. If I had been him I would not have wasted over a day pussy footing around. He should have taken out the kobolds to begin with and rescued the children. The killing of the kobold is minor and more of a matter of form. A little formality when you are carrying out high justice is expected. Counting to 5 and running someone through with your sword lacks class. He should have probably gave a small speech and then beheaded him.
Paladins may or may not be a legitimate authority. Just because you are a paladin does not automatically make you a noble of the realm. Just because he being granted powers by a deity does not mean anything. If that is the case then all Clerics, Druids, Inquisitors, Oracles, Rangers would also have the same rights. This is especially true in the case of a NG paladin.
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You killed an unredeemable evil creature. A monster. A creature that if you let go would cause evil again. It would of been a completely different story if the kobold went : "I give up, I surrender, I will change my ways, show me the path o'great warrior of Sarenrae" or some iteration as such. But a Paladin metting out high justice against an evil creature does not make a paladin lose their class. Part of being a Paladin is protecting the innocent from evil, and by letting the world no longer suffer the existance of such evil a creature is part of his/her code.
Spacelard, I disagree with a lot of that article. It is a reversion to the ridiculous and reductive conception of alignment which plagued early editions.
The problem with paladins is that too many DM's expect them to be played like they are somehow from 21st century Earth, in contrast to just about any other character concept, when in fact they are from essentially medieval Golarion. You need to look at how figures from the actual middle ages who were remembered as honorable behaved.
Paladins are literally the long arm of divine law in the mortal world. There is very little reason that they need to bow and scrape to temporal law. They follow Law as it exists as a fundamental force of the universe. Thus a paladin can absolutely pass judgement, especially against a monster who raised arms against said paladin. I would expect that the laws of most decent and reasonably lawful countries to respect the justice of a paladin as well, since they are about as incorruptible as they come. Depending on where they are from and how that culture views monstrous races like kobolds, they might refuse the kobold's surrender all together if kobolds are seen as sub-sentient pests for example.
A paladin of Sarenrae, however might equally try to redeem the kobold, but said kobold is toast if the paladin thinks that the sudden conversion was insincere and only to save its own skin.
TL;DR: The paladin was fine. DM's need to stop actively looking for ways to screw over paladins and recognize that Golarion is not the 21st century.
No.
No one should bring real world religious views into this.It is a terrible idea, and will help no one.
Do not do it.
I'm pretty sure that that's what I am saying too.
Considering how much there was that D&D is the work of the devil, I highly doubt they were all devoted christians. Not saying that some were not but D&D was NOT made as a "christian playground".Paladins are Knights ordained by a church they are expected to obey the edicts of the church and no one else. The whole LG Paladin comes from the fact that the entire TSR team were devoted Christians.
You do realize that the whole DnD is the work of the devil wasn't a TSR marketing stunt or anything like that. It was idiots who heard something on the news and blew it out of proportion. Similar to what happened with the Harry Potter books.
Everyone of the original TSR Dungeons & Dragons team was a devoted Christian. That is the reason Why if you actually read the OD&D Rulebook it actually doesn't mention Evil alignment for players at all.
Note this is before the whole D&D is Satanic crap.
On-Topic: the OP was well within his rights to conduct matters in this way. Personally I would try to find a new group. Or at least a different GM.
You bent over backward. No, friend- your paladin cannot fall for this.
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Just agreeing.
Agree using 21st Century Morals is one thing. That could be unless, well I'll not make it political here, what many think LG should be (even then we'll have a lot of dissension)
However as Pathfinder Style games are generally more Iron Age with City States, the idea of "legitimate authority" ends where the bow shot drops
In the "wilderness" authority is who has the biggest weapon and Paladins have to navigate in that world, not where there is an integrated network of Law Enforcement Agencies and Courts
We need more genocidal, racist, antagonist paladins, Eberron style.
What I really like about that setting is that they specifically included Lawful Good bad guys.
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Of course, Sarenrae herself is written as feeling like this about redemption:
"She brushes off insults and deflects attacks, patiently trying to convince those who perceive her as an enemy that their belief is false. She is no victim, and once it is clear that her words and power are wasted on those who refuse to listen and believe, she responds to violence in kind with swift metal and scorching light."
Also, the sample paladin code for paladins of Sarenrae in Faiths of Purity writes this:
"I will redeem the ignorant with my words and my actions. If they will not turn toward the light, I will redeem them by the sword."
So, I think you might have done enough to stay within your paladin code. I suppose it will depend on if you and your GM feels you were patient enough in attempting to redeem with words before redeeming by sword.
This
As a follower of Sarenrae you should be fine.
As a follower of Torag - assuming the kobolds are your people's enemies - you are even supposed to kill them.
As a follower of Shelyn you would have clearly broken the code as she belief in everyone can be redeemed. Remember her brother is Zon Kuthon and she still hopes for his redemption.
Faith of Purity is quite interesting in this respect as it gives a paladin code for the most important gods. And yes - in some cases what lets you fail for one got wouldn't cause an issue with another one.
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Failure to act swiftly is what he need forgiveness for.So running in blindly is what, a virtue? Sorry, but as the OP pointed out, he had reasons to be distrustful of the people, Paladins can most certainly be wary, running into problems after a group has been less than honest with you seems the most reasonable approach to make.
His first and most serious mistake was waiting for the cleric to rememorize spells.
Not at all. Going in unprepared is a breach of intelligence. Getting the Cleric up to power so they could help is a good thing, not to be punished over
But what if the Cleric didn't want to go, should the Paladin go off on their own? I think not
If I had been him I would not have wasted over a day pussy footing around. He should have taken out the kobolds to begin with and rescued the children.On this we agree that he should have been killing as many Kobolds as he could but it seems his DM wants to make him play the "redemption card" very strongly.
The killing of the kobold is minor and more of a matter of form. A little formality when you are carrying out high justice is expected. Counting to 5 and running someone through with your sword lacks class. He should have probably gave a small speech and then beheaded him.But that flies in the face of speed which you are chiding him
Paladins may or may not be a legitimate authorityName anything that would be better. Also, they not be Temporal Legitimate, but they are divinely legit. That pretty much settles it for me and personally, I'm an atheist
Just because you are a paladin does not automatically make you a noble of the realm.Never said it did. I said it makes you better than 99.9999% of the Nobles in the Realm, only Noble Paladins can match them.
Just because he being granted powers by a deity does not mean anything. If that is the case then all Clerics, Druids, Inquisitors, Oracles, Rangers would also have the same rights. This is especially true in the case of a NG paladin.
Essentially they do and are far more willing and unfettered to do so. Same goes with Barbarians, etc.
Again, the "legit temporal authority" ends where the bow shot drops. Outside of their territory, they just don't seem to care. However that doesn't mean they're not up to send a force of arms against raiders, pirates, etc
Plan and simple: No you did NOT break your code. You are a NG paladin, you followed your code and you followed the ways of your goddess. You did not torture the creature, you gave it a chance to repent and see the light, and then you meted out swift and merciful justice as your teachings dictate.
I think you're fine.
The 5 second countdown may have been a bit much, as I'd imagine there may have been diplomatic or magical ways to inveigle the truth out of the kobold, but nothing to push you over the edge, in my humble opinion.
I certainly don't buy the 'failure to act swiftly' ploy mentioned above, that's for certain.
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I'll throw in a bit of nuance that I encountered as a GM just two sessions ago:
The paladin in my campaign is a duly-deputized representative of Sandpoint in Rise of the Runelords. She's been out defeating goblins, declaring their crimes to the party, asking whether anyone wished to speak in their defense, and then executing them. Sarenrae approves. Judge, jury, and executioner all in one. So as a GM I have no problem with executing helpless prisoners as long as you know their crimes and as long as you hold (even a mockery of) a brief trial.
Then she got personally ticked off at a goblin druid whose animal companion nearly ate her gnome, so once he dropped, she ran up, hissed some hatred in his face, and slit his throat.
Same exact end result: The painless death of a helpless prisoner. But Sarenrae strongly disapproved because it was personal vengeance, not justice. We had quite the lively conversation over this, but anger and hatred should not cloud justice (in my mind).
So my issue in the current situation is not the killing of the helpless prisoner; it's the "5, 4, 3, 2, 1, you're dead" countdown. Just say, "For crimes against the town, you are sentenced to death. Do you have anything to say before I cut off your head?" and then give him a clean execution. (And I tend to agree that the execution was OK, because the paladin clearly tried to negotiate first, the kobold knew that his clan had the kids, and still fought back instead of opening negotiations.)
But at the end of it all, I'd give strong signs of disapproval, not a full-blown cutoff. As with the goblin druid, you killed someone who deserved to die. You just didn't take the extra 10 seconds to make it a 'formal' execution, and you weren't in such a tight time constraint that that 10 seconds would have mattered one way or the other.
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What everyone seems to be ignoring is the real problematic issue.
The relationship between the OP and his DM is at the very least bordering on the antagonistic. Given that we've seen only one side of the story, there isn't a way to tell which, if not both sides are to blame for this.
My guideline is this. If trust does not exist between the DM and the players, the group has a problem that needs to be addressed. If it's not looked at it has a nontrivial danger of festering over time.
Damn you for interjecting logic and reason into this mess!
This is a Paladin thread for Chuthlu's sake! It's supposed to be contentious full or colorful witticisms of your opponents lineage and how it looks like a well formed christmas tree!
There's a world of difference between acting swiftly or running in blindly and waiting a day for someone to re-memorize a spell. I don't care what the attitude of the village happens to be. The children of the village shouldn't be penalized for the actions of their parents.
Leaving them to the mercies of kobolds for an entire day so that you might have a better chance of communicating with said kobolds...that doesn't balance out with the amount of suffering the kids might have undergone.
I'm not saying he should have rushed blindly in, but he shouldn't just be taking his time either, acting as if he's got all the time in the world. As far as anyone knows, time is something those children don't have.
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There's a world of difference between acting swiftly or running in blindly and waiting a day for someone to re-memorize a spell. I don't care what the attitude of the village happens to be. The children of the village shouldn't be penalized for the actions of their parents.
If you've already established that I'm a liar and I've tried to have you killed, then I tell you that you need to kill all those koblolds because they stole my children, what are you going to do/think? You're a Paladin, so you know if there's a possiblity of me telling you the truth, you have to do something, but there's also a huge possibility that I'm trying to make your life difficult or kill you. Then, if I'm willing to try to kill you, wouldn't I be willing to try to get others killed, like innocent kobolds?
And let's say all of this is moot and waiting was the wrong decsion, is being too cautions when trying to save children really an unredeemable offense that would cause you to fall from grace?
Neutral good is the best alignment you can be because it means doing what is good without bias for or against order.
Killing the Kobold was for the greater good even if it was against the law.
Finally, just because someone is Lawful doesn't mean they give a lick about the laws of the land. A professional assassin paid to kill every child in an orphanage can be Lawful. Lawful means you follow a set of Laws or a code. It doesn't have to the law of the land you follow, it could be the assassin's code you follow. Never betray your employer, once a contract is singed, fulfill it or die, etc.
There's a world of difference between acting swiftly or running in blindly and waiting a day for someone to re-memorize a spell. I don't care what the attitude of the village happens to be. The children of the village shouldn't be penalized for the actions of their parents.
Leaving them to the mercies of kobolds for an entire day so that you might have a better chance of communicating with said kobolds...that doesn't balance out with the amount of suffering the kids might have undergone.
I'm not saying he should have rushed blindly in, but he shouldn't just be taking his time either, acting as if he's got all the time in the world. As far as anyone knows, time is something those children don't have.
This is exactly my point. Especially considering the spell in questions is comprehend languages not a combat spell. It would be different if you needed a spell to defeat the creatures you were going up against. That is not what happened. The Party encountered some kobolds which they could defeat without retreating, but chose to retreat so the cleric could talk to them.
After that they went out of their way to not kill them. Only after they start taking damage to the paladin and cleric start fighting for real. After it is over they tie up a survivor and interrogate him. When he does not get the answers he wants he runs him through with no other warning except to count to 5.
The two things he did wrong are first and foremost not doing everything he could to rescue the children as soon as he could. The kobolds at this point were aware of the party but the paladin allowed them to remain free. This also gave them the chance to escape with the children, or at least to better prepare. If the GM was half way decent the kobolds would have either fled or at least set up an ambush for the party. They are after all kobolds which are known for their traps and ambushes. The party should have had a much tougher fight then they did. There should have at least been a couple of kids as hostages and more than likely one or more of them should have died. The GM in this case was going way easy on the party and the paladin was at this point playing lawful stupid instead of NG.
Second thing he did was not observing the forms. Now in this case since I was not there I can't say for sure if he did or not, but by his description of the events it did not look like it.
Again what he needs forgiveness for is for failure to protect the innocent.