If the people in your group are cheating on dice rolls in a tabletop roll playing game then life must be pretty desperate for them.
It literally doesn't get more hopeless than that. Well, maybe if they were LARPing...
But seriously, let it slide, I can't imagine how depressed these people must be with their lives, any ray of sunshine and control they can muster should be encouraged.
I find this myself. And I think that fundamentally it's an issue with the system.
Pathfinder is a very inflexible system when it comes to character development.
Your characters abilities are represented by feats which are gained every two levels. Two levels takes a while to gain, weeks, perhaps a month or two.
A good character builder will set out many of his feats and abilities at character creation.
I'll give you an example, you build a fighter, furious focus, PA and toughness. 18 STR, 12 DEX, 14 CON etc. A good solid build.
You've cleared your first adventure and you want your character to start wearing light armour, dodging attacks and hitting multiple foes with feats like whirlwind attack. This is impossible. Your desire to move your fighter to a more mobile path is not supported by the system.
The character you design at first level is immovable from that.
For people like you and I it's very hard to play for long periods of time with this inflexible characters, there's so many classes, variants, archetypes!
My suggestion would be to convince your GM to use the fast XP track. This way you'll see alot more reward and gain from your character building and it won't feel so static.
These feats are stupid, and a perfect example of why 3rd party material shouldn't be allowed in games.
Here's a better feat for you, ask your GM if you can use it:
Critical Mayhem:
When using a weapon you are proficient in you always score and confirm a critical hit. What's more, roll a d8 and if the number is even on the dice you level up
I think you'll find this a little better than the measly feats you've suggested.
Fighter (1) [Feat1]Power Attack, [Human]Dodge, [Fighter]Furious Focus
Ninja (2) Sneak Attack +1d6, Poison use
Ninja (3) [Feat2]Mobility, Ki pool, Vanishing Trick
Ninja (4) Sneak attack +2d6, No trace
Ninja (5) [Feat3]Spring Attack, Shadow Clone
Weapon choice: Katana
The idea would be to use positioning and Spring attack to set up my sneak attack dice with Power attack for 1d8+12 +2d6 Damage. If I need to stand toe to toe I can using shadow clones.
Perhaps later Combat reflexes at 7 and 2 levels of Shadowdancer at 8 and 9 for HiPs, Darkvision and Evasion.
Opinions very welcome, anything I've missed here with this deadly blade?
To clarify. Yes I am looking for a debuffer but also with some competent offence of his own. I'd like this to manifest via spells like 'vomit swarm' or ice storm.
I wonder if a Witch could be turned into a viable summoner. It would delay my extra hexes which I'm already behind on to get Spell Focus Conjuration and Augment Summoning.
Following your description of using debuffs combined with damage you should think about the rime spell metamagic.
And if you want to use it you should take magic lineage frost fall or ice storm as a trait.
Both spells deal damage even if the save is made and thus entangle the target if combined with rime spell.
I use that on my own scarred witch doctor and it's nice in terms of debuff and battlefield control.
Even if I have all those nice hexes to debuff my first two actions vs strong opponents are most of the time first a rimed spell followed by ray of exhaustion. Even if both his saves are successful he is entangled and fatigued.
A smart idea, I wonder how much more use I could get out of it.
Here's my character for an upcoming campaign. Serpents Skull.
Character Description:
Rambosa
This pot bellied freak of a man was outcast from his village at the age of seven. The elders believed he had brought a curse on them and that he was possessed by an ancient and evil wendu spirit known as 'Tokato' the master of deception and lies.
Branding his body with a horrific scar which he still keeps to this day, a long gouge across the side of his face they left him tied in the jungle of Mwangi to die.
Rambosa survived however, gnawing his way through his bonds and surviving on his own in the harsh wilderness. To cover his horrific face he used a wooden mask which later he would start to adorn with markings.
It was in this time of need that the ancient spirit Tokato made him self known to Rambosa, teaching him in the ways of the dark wendu magics that would allow him to survive.
Led by this super natural force Rambosa is asked to leave his jungle of Mwangi to seek out the source of his magic and abilities.
I think some sort of forgery of official documents/title etc would be quite funny.
If you have sleight of hand it'd be great if you planted some false documents pertaining to a 'half celestial half ratfolk prophet' who matched your description?
Maybe even make the Paladin think your some sort of divine being of Sarenrae come to cleanse the darkness.
When I first read this I thought that this player was trying to take advantage of you, especially when he went on to say that taking the feat tax 'would ruin his build'.
However, all he's really asking for is a 're-skin' of Half Orc to make him look human, but is really a Half Orc. The more I consider his wish, the less I have a problem with it.
If I were you here's what I'd do.
Allow the re-skin, but there's something not quite right about his character when he inter-acts with people. Nothing obvious, nothing overt, but something strange.
His 'orc blood' may be 'weak' as he states it, but any ranger worth their salt will pick it up in a heartbeat. Other orcs will pick it up too, and perhaps goblins.
Let it pass, continue the game as is and then introduce a plot line into the campaign that brings this to light. Perhaps a dwarvern ranger who is passing by in the town picks it up and starts tracking him, bring in some game conflict later on, perhaps a member of his family comes seeking him for an urgent problem that raises the suspicions of the town.
The choices are endless, use this as an oppurtunity to roleplay the conflict.
The problem is that the player also wants to start in a Shoanti tribe, who will kill all half-orc on sight. So the player is trying to gain an in game advantage with an aesthetic change without paying for it, and that is cheese.
Let him. Even better. He better work hard to keep that lid on his half orc heritage sealed tighter than a rabbits snatch or he's gonna be in big trouble.
When I first read this I thought that this player was trying to take advantage of you, especially when he went on to say that taking the feat tax 'would ruin his build'.
However, all he's really asking for is a 're-skin' of Half Orc to make him look human, but is really a Half Orc. The more I consider his wish, the less I have a problem with it.
If I were you here's what I'd do.
Allow the re-skin, but there's something not quite right about his character when he inter-acts with people. Nothing obvious, nothing overt, but something strange.
His 'orc blood' may be 'weak' as he states it, but any ranger worth their salt will pick it up in a heartbeat. Other orcs will pick it up too, and perhaps goblins.
Let it pass, continue the game as is and then introduce a plot line into the campaign that brings this to light. Perhaps a dwarvern ranger who is passing by in the town picks it up and starts tracking him, bring in some game conflict later on, perhaps a member of his family comes seeking him for an urgent problem that raises the suspicions of the town.
The choices are endless, use this as an oppurtunity to roleplay the conflict.
FWIW, your mob (the British) didnt abolish the death penalty till 1998.
The guy that shagged Princes Diana commited a Capital offence (Treason) when he slept with her (at British Law sleeping with the Royal consort is a Capital offence for all but the King to protect the bloodline).
There were (muted) calls for his execution!
She was also comitting a Capital offence herself by the way.
Good old death penalty. The sooner we see the back of it the better.
At the top of your browser are tabs. Press Ctrl-T then open your email and respond to the email I sent you...
Thats Federal legislation prohibiting the States from legislating for its return (and probably consitutionally challengable, but thats a differnt story!).
It was outlawed/ abolished in our various States (and Federally in 1973) much earlier than that.
NSW was the last State to formally abolish the death penalty via legislation, and it did so officially in 1985 (although no death sentences were carried out for decades prior).
If you read the wiki article it contains more detail.
Why does it give the abolition date for WA as 1984?
Malafice is certainly not from England. One of it's experiments in penal colonisation sure. Wikipedia supports me that it Capital Punishment was banned in his country in 2010, although specific states and territories had done away with it specifically before hand.
They had fair expectation that these kobolds (despite being unsure why they might've done so) were responsible for kidnapping the kids. Using player knowledge of kobolds, that alone would've given them fair expectation that he was a sadistic lizard man.
That he was the one kobold in a 1000 that just wants fair treatment, a spot by the fire and a chance to show off his tap dancing routine doesn't make their reaction to it unjustified. I can show you any number of monster tropes and most RPGers would be able to give me a rough estimation of what they're like.
Orc: Violent
Giant: Lumbering and stupid
Squid headed man: Sinister
Gnoll: Violent
etc etc.
That you choose to change them into beings as diverse as humans is great, I like that. That you don't inform your players (it seems) is not so cool. And that you then assume they must have knowledge of things they clearly don't and THEN punish them (him) for it?
Not cool at all.
Infact not all Malifice's monsters are redeemable. Unfortunately for my Paladin Kobolds are.
Goblins are according to Malifice 'Iredeemably evil', so much so that they are a banned PC race in his campaigns.
You define the Paladin in Paizo's Pathfinder by the definitions you created for Paladins 25 years ago in a different system, with different rules, in a different world in a different game.
No, I have exclusivey been using the PF definition of Good, Evil, Sarenraes dogma, the NG alignment, and what causes a fall from grace in this thread.
Impossible. These things didn't exist 25 years ago. Unless you believe yourself to be some sort of prophet these two posts within 20 minutes of eachother are mutually exclusive.
Either a) 'Ive played Paladins (and GM'd them) to high levels in the past in all iterations of the rules for over 25 years using this exact same definition.'
or b) 'I have exclusivey been using the PF definition of Good, Evil, Sarenraes dogma, the NG alignment, and what causes a fall from grace in this thread.'
Ive played Paladins (and GM'd them) to high levels in the past in alliterations of the rules for over 25 years using this exact same definition.
And here my friend, in one succinct sentence, you undo your whole reasoning and show the rigidity, closed mindedness and inflexibility of your argument.
You define the Paladin in Paizo's Pathfinder by the definitions you created for Paladins 25 years ago in a different system, with different rules, in a different world in a different game.
Yes, the Sarenrae of your imagination begs to differ. I concede that.
But the Sarenrae as interpreted by me and a majority of people on this thread does not.
Thats because you (and others in this thread) have a fairly twisted opinion on what consitutes 'good' (some even advocate the wanton massacre of evil sentients, including prisoners, and for no other reason than detecting as 'evil'), and a rather conflicting view (to say the least) on what consitutes 'mercy' 'compassion' and 'redemption'.
You got frustrated after trying to do the 'right thing', and you lashed out at a helpless and frightened sentient that was entirely at your mercy (Sarenraes greatest virtue).
And to be honest, I think you regretted it not long afterwards.
But thats just my subjective view.
How I felt about it is clearly documented right here.
If my character really was a Paladin of Sarenrae existing in Malifice's world he'd know the code backwards and not kill the Kobold. Because he exists in that world and is a Paladin... My character would not or could not have fallen if he truly was a Paladin of Sarenrae.
False reasoning.
Your character is human. And humans are not robots; they carry prejudices, bias and flawed reasoning. They have emotions. They get angry. They get scared. They err.
Real world history, and literature is littered with such examples.
Many a Paladin falls thinking he is doing the right thing via his interpretation of the code.
His God may very well disagree.
Your interpretation of your code may very well have allowed you to decapitate cowering and helpless sentients because they failed to co-operate (despite not understanding you).
Sarenrae begs to differ.
Sometimes I think you are unable to read.
'Sarenrae begs to differ'
Yes, the Sarenrae of your imagination begs to differ. I concede that.
But the Sarenrae as interpreted by me and a majority of people on this thread does not.
Having read through all the posts, what is certainly apparent is how everyone's views differ. And this should come as no surprise.
This game was made by humans (us) in this real world there is no such thing as objective good and evil unfortunately. Therefore we can only interpret these subjective abstracts as best we can.
(Queue christianity discussion on God being good and yet sending the flood to kill all but Noah.....)
Philosophy aside what is also apparent is how we interpret the game. Because that's what it is a game. No kobold really died that day and justifying it one way or another with other fictional characters like Darth Vader as some people have been is equally as ridiculous and deluded.
I (and many here) believed I was playing by the code of Sarenrae. The DM (and others here) think my character should be punished by the rules.
If my character really was a Paladin of Sarenrae existing in Malifice's world he'd know the code backwards and not kill the Kobold. Because he exists in that world and is a Paladin. Just like how a person living in North Korea thinks their supreme leader is a god. Because he exists in that world. I the player however can do my character a dis service by acting in a way that does not support the world created by Malifice. Because I am not part of Malifices imagination as my character is.
My character would not or could not have fallen if he truly was a Paladin of Sarenrae. Killing the kobold would have been a much bigger dilemma for him than it was for me, because it goes against the very grain of who he is and what defines him in Malifices world.
I think paladins should fall the moment they deal lethal damage to anyone. After all, if they really cared, they'd just take a -4 penalty on their attack rolls to deal nonlethal damage (hey, Good isn't always expedient, but it's a necessary cost to avoid becoming just like the monsters you fight) or use a Merciful weapon at all times. Any lethal damage dealt might kill the victim, and every victim killed is someone the paladin has failed to redeem. After all, the paladin should have faith that every single one of them is redeemable.
Do we think that an Inquisitor of Sarenrae would have been punished for this same act using Malifice's standard as the benchmark not our own ideas of following Sarenrae.
Sarenae doesnt advocate killing defenceless and helpless creatures.
Even she imprisoned Rovagug when he was at her mercy.
Actually, Rovagug was only imprisoned through an unfortunate pact made with Asmodeus because he was so powerful that the combined might of the gods COULDN'T DESTROY HIM.
/bardic knowledge
'I will seek out and destroy the spawn of the Rough
Beast. If I cannot defeat them, I will give my life trying.
If my life would be wasted in the attempt, I will find
allies. If any fall because of my inaction, their deaths
lie upon my soul, and I will atone for each.'
There are neutral kobolds in Golorian. Therefore, an evil kobold is an assumption. Quoting SRD will not make it a fact.
This argument about the alignment of the kobold would be moot if the character did not have easy way to detect if his helpless sentient was evil. However, the paladin can easily Detect Evil and game mechanically smite anyone who pings as Evil. It's a character-building experience for a paladin to learn to wisely use his divine ability to Detect Evil.
For those who are interested. My DM has stated I have broken my code as he interprets it. The code he has given me is this:
'A paladin must be of neutral good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, the paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority but only as long as that authority is not used for evil ends, strive to act benevolently at all times (showing kindness, charity, mercy and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.'
Arguments like 'Yes I committed genocide and rounded up and exterminated all the Orcs on Golarion in gas chambers, but it was for the greater good' or 'These Drow babies are going to grow up and be evil, so Im doing a good thing by throwing them in the fire now before they grow up' dont wash on the deities (and they shouldnt wash on any sane GM either).
I've emailed you, as I mentioned I'm interested in other people's opinions on a topic of debate in this thread, not on us having a conversation over it in public.
It was crying and pleading for it's life? Wow... that's... Yeah, good call, man.
Hang on!
Firstly this is a trained soldier, that the DM had expressly gone out of his way to point out.
A trained and lethal enemy combatant complicit in and maybe responsible for the capture, torture and consumation of 5 human children.
What's more an Evil (yes I detected) Kobold. And here's a direct quote from their description in the Bestiary:
'Cowards and schemers, they never fight fair if
they can help it, instead setting up ambushes and doublecrosses,
holing up in their warrens behind countless
crude but ingenious traps, or rolling over the enemy in
vast, yipping hordes.'
My character executed the creature for it's crimes, because it was evil and because it did not accept my offer of mercy.
As many people have quoted from Sarenrae's Paladin code:
'I will not abide evil, and will combat it with steel when
words are not enough.'
'I will redeem the ignorant with my words and my
actions. If they will not turn toward the light, I will
redeem them by the sword.'
To me, killing an unarmed prisoner is murder. Period.
And thats how I see it. (And Im the GM in this campaign).
Killing a helpless sentient creature who is helpless, begging for his life, crying and so on and totally at your mercy is an evil act.
Should a Paladin intentionally do so, he breaks his code.
Iced2K - Hint hint.
FireclawDrake wrote:
A real paladin would've taken the kobold back to receive justice at court (as silly as that seems).
Justice for 'what' exactly? Why on earth are Kobolds subject to human laws? From the Kobolds perspective he was defending his tribe from adventurers (he has a wife and kids down there remember).
A Paladin is expected to uphold the highest values of good, mercy kindess and benevolence. There are many ways for a Paladin to deal with an enemy who surrenders, execution out of frustration isnt one of them.
He can intimidate, interrogate or cajole information or co-operation out of the prisoner. He certainly cant torture the prisoner. He can offer the prisoner a chance at attonement or redemption. He can leave the prisoner tied up (but if possible not merely tied up to die).
Also note, the tied up Kobold didnt have a clue what the big armored slashy man was saying (He doesnt understand Common, only Draconic - which no-one in the party spoke). The party OTOH knew exactly what the Kobold was saying (The cleric had cast Comprahend languages).
It went along the lines of 'Please dont kill me, I dont want to die.. sob, balther, sob'
Then, out of frustration and anger, *Snick*.
Evil act? Check. Intentional? Check.
Might want to look up that Paladin code again.
If you have time read the whole thread Malifice.
I strongly advise we don't use this forum to speak to each other on.
Oh there's plenty of that too, infact I'm the last character to reach for the Wand of Cure Light between encounters. On this occasion however I did err on the side of caution only because I didn't want to unnecessarily spill the blood of innocent kobolds. Ironically!
This is straight out of the code of Sarenrae from the faith of purity.
If any fall because of my inaction, their deaths lie upon my soul, and I will atone for each.
I am not suggesting he be permanently stripped of all paladin powers, but that he needs to atone. This is a good role-playing opportunity and should not be wasted.
I absolutely agree with you on this. IF the children suffer because of my inaction, their deaths absolutely lie on my conscience.
What's more, and I've thought about this. If the children are not in the catacombs of the monastery the deaths of the kobolds will lie on my conscience.
What everyone seems to be ignoring is the real problematic issue.
The relationship between the OP and his DM is at the very least bordering on the antagonistic. Given that we've seen only one side of the story, there isn't a way to tell which, if not both sides are to blame for this.
My guideline is this. If trust does not exist between the DM and the players, the group has a problem that needs to be addressed. If it's not looked at it has a nontrivial danger of festering over time.
Actually, the DM and I are very close friends out of game. We often share beers together and get on very well.
It just so happens we are both very competitive when it comes to the game. Alot of the time to the detriment of the less experienced players. He'll rarely throw mobs at us that aren't statted up strongly and don't work in tight military formations. If the creatures large you can bet it has grapple AND constrict. I enjoy this greatly, and so does he. There may be some gentle prodding of eachother but nothing that we take personally. I should also add he's probably one of the best GM's around, but we have an in joke in the party that Combat Reflexes is a wasted feat in his campaigns because he's so technical with his monsters.
Thanks to everyone weighing in on this especially BB36 and Are.
I have been following the Paladin code for Sarenrae to what I believe is as close to its intent as possible. I'll quote a few of the tenets below which I think are applicable here:
I will redeem the ignorant with my words and my
actions. If they will not turn toward the light, I will
redeem them by the sword.
I will not abide evil, and will combat it with steel when
words are not enough. I do not flinch from my faith,
and do not fear embarrassment. My soul cannot be
bought for all the stars in the sky.
