I find this myself. And I think that fundamentally it's an issue with the system.
Pathfinder is a very inflexible system when it comes to character development.
Your characters abilities are represented by feats which are gained every two levels. Two levels takes a while to gain, weeks, perhaps a month or two.
A good character builder will set out many of his feats and abilities at character creation.
I'll give you an example, you build a fighter, furious focus, PA and toughness. 18 STR, 12 DEX, 14 CON etc. A good solid build.
You've cleared your first adventure and you want your character to start wearing light armour, dodging attacks and hitting multiple foes with feats like whirlwind attack. This is impossible. Your desire to move your fighter to a more mobile path is not supported by the system.
The character you design at first level is immovable from that.
For people like you and I it's very hard to play for long periods of time with this inflexible characters, there's so many classes, variants, archetypes!
My suggestion would be to convince your GM to use the fast XP track. This way you'll see alot more reward and gain from your character building and it won't feel so static.
These feats are stupid, and a perfect example of why 3rd party material shouldn't be allowed in games.
Here's a better feat for you, ask your GM if you can use it:
When using a weapon you are proficient in you always score and confirm a critical hit. What's more, roll a d8 and if the number is even on the dice you level up
I think you'll find this a little better than the measly feats you've suggested.
I've been toying with a new ninja build in an upcoming adventure.
Here's the character at level five (starting level 1 but this gives a flavour of the build):
"The Black Moon"
Human Lawful Evil Assassin of Achaekek
Fighter 1/Ninja 4
STR: 19 (+2 Racial, +1 Level 4)
Traits: Reactionary, Indomitable Faith
Fighter (1) [Feat1]Power Attack, [Human]Dodge, [Fighter]Furious Focus
Weapon choice: Katana
The idea would be to use positioning and Spring attack to set up my sneak attack dice with Power attack for 1d8+12 +2d6 Damage. If I need to stand toe to toe I can using shadow clones.
Perhaps later Combat reflexes at 7 and 2 levels of Shadowdancer at 8 and 9 for HiPs, Darkvision and Evasion.
Opinions very welcome, anything I've missed here with this deadly blade?
Thanks guys for this,
To clarify. Yes I am looking for a debuffer but also with some competent offence of his own. I'd like this to manifest via spells like 'vomit swarm' or ice storm.
I wonder if a Witch could be turned into a viable summoner. It would delay my extra hexes which I'm already behind on to get Spell Focus Conjuration and Augment Summoning.
Perhaps not worth it.
A smart idea, I wonder how much more use I could get out of it.
Here's my character for an upcoming campaign. Serpents Skull.
This pot bellied freak of a man was outcast from his village at the age of seven. The elders believed he had brought a curse on them and that he was possessed by an ancient and evil wendu spirit known as 'Tokato' the master of deception and lies.
Branding his body with a horrific scar which he still keeps to this day, a long gouge across the side of his face they left him tied in the jungle of Mwangi to die.
Rambosa survived however, gnawing his way through his bonds and surviving on his own in the harsh wilderness. To cover his horrific face he used a wooden mask which later he would start to adorn with markings.
It was in this time of need that the ancient spirit Tokato made him self known to Rambosa, teaching him in the ways of the dark wendu magics that would allow him to survive.
Led by this super natural force Rambosa is asked to leave his jungle of Mwangi to seek out the source of his magic and abilities.
And here is the character:
Rambosa Level 1 human Scarred Witch Doctor
Patron: Tokato (Deception)
Feats: 1) Racial Heritage Orc. 2) Improved initiative
Traits: Boarded at Mwangi, Reactionary
Now I wonder if I'd be better served by toughness or perhaps Ironhide? These might suit the character a bit better?
The other consideration I had was maybe Spell Focus conjuration and then Augment summoning later on.
I really like the idea of witch spells like 'vomit swarm' and I think they'll add a nice dimension to the character.
Any suggestions for a first level feat? Or am I right going with Improved Initiative.
Sex in advance
GRAPE = The Grapple Ape
I could really do with some help on this.
Currently I'm Druid (Ape shaman) 2.
Feats: Eschew materials and Dodge
I have the ape shaman totemic transformation giving me two slam attacks and +2 to grapple CMD.
My dilemma is this. As far as I can see I have two options.
1) Unarmed fighter at 3rd. Getting Improved unarmed strike, Improved Grapple (3rd level) and Snapping turtle style.
My BAB goes up by one as does my CMD and I gain some pretty nice feats.
2) Tetori monk. I gain Improved unarmed strike, improved grapple and can take snapping turtle style as my third level feat.
Roughly the same. BUT option (2) gives me my wisdom to AC when I'm wild shaped later on (admittedly level 8) and one less to hit.
From then on I'd stick with druid until 7th level, gaining improved natural attack at 5th and snapping turtle clutch at 7th.
For levels 8-10 I'd continue with either unarmed fighter or tetori depending on.
I think some sort of forgery of official documents/title etc would be quite funny.
If you have sleight of hand it'd be great if you planted some false documents pertaining to a 'half celestial half ratfolk prophet' who matched your description?
Maybe even make the Paladin think your some sort of divine being of Sarenrae come to cleanse the darkness.
In hindsight I can see the confusion. I referenced a rabbit as it was a small creature and assumed it would have suitably narrow oraphices...
Let him. Even better. He better work hard to keep that lid on his half orc heritage sealed tighter than a rabbits snatch or he's gonna be in big trouble.
And If I was the GM, trouble would come knocking.
When I first read this I thought that this player was trying to take advantage of you, especially when he went on to say that taking the feat tax 'would ruin his build'.
However, all he's really asking for is a 're-skin' of Half Orc to make him look human, but is really a Half Orc. The more I consider his wish, the less I have a problem with it.
If I were you here's what I'd do.
Allow the re-skin, but there's something not quite right about his character when he inter-acts with people. Nothing obvious, nothing overt, but something strange.
His 'orc blood' may be 'weak' as he states it, but any ranger worth their salt will pick it up in a heartbeat. Other orcs will pick it up too, and perhaps goblins.
Let it pass, continue the game as is and then introduce a plot line into the campaign that brings this to light. Perhaps a dwarvern ranger who is passing by in the town picks it up and starts tracking him, bring in some game conflict later on, perhaps a member of his family comes seeking him for an urgent problem that raises the suspicions of the town.
The choices are endless, use this as an oppurtunity to roleplay the conflict.
At the top of your browser are tabs. Press Ctrl-T then open your email and respond to the email I sent you...
Why does it give the abolition date for WA as 1984?
Infact not all Malifice's monsters are redeemable. Unfortunately for my Paladin Kobolds are.
Goblins are according to Malifice 'Iredeemably evil', so much so that they are a banned PC race in his campaigns.
Impossible. These things didn't exist 25 years ago. Unless you believe yourself to be some sort of prophet these two posts within 20 minutes of eachother are mutually exclusive.
Either a) 'Ive played Paladins (and GM'd them) to high levels in the past in all iterations of the rules for over 25 years using this exact same definition.'
or b) 'I have exclusivey been using the PF definition of Good, Evil, Sarenraes dogma, the NG alignment, and what causes a fall from grace in this thread.'
And here my friend, in one succinct sentence, you undo your whole reasoning and show the rigidity, closed mindedness and inflexibility of your argument.
You define the Paladin in Paizo's Pathfinder by the definitions you created for Paladins 25 years ago in a different system, with different rules, in a different world in a different game.
How I felt about it is clearly documented right here.
Sometimes I think you are unable to read.
'Sarenrae begs to differ'
Yes, the Sarenrae of your imagination begs to differ. I concede that.
But the Sarenrae as interpreted by me and a majority of people on this thread does not.
Having read through all the posts, what is certainly apparent is how everyone's views differ. And this should come as no surprise.
This game was made by humans (us) in this real world there is no such thing as objective good and evil unfortunately. Therefore we can only interpret these subjective abstracts as best we can.
(Queue christianity discussion on God being good and yet sending the flood to kill all but Noah.....)
Philosophy aside what is also apparent is how we interpret the game. Because that's what it is a game. No kobold really died that day and justifying it one way or another with other fictional characters like Darth Vader as some people have been is equally as ridiculous and deluded.
I (and many here) believed I was playing by the code of Sarenrae. The DM (and others here) think my character should be punished by the rules.
If my character really was a Paladin of Sarenrae existing in Malifice's world he'd know the code backwards and not kill the Kobold. Because he exists in that world and is a Paladin. Just like how a person living in North Korea thinks their supreme leader is a god. Because he exists in that world. I the player however can do my character a dis service by acting in a way that does not support the world created by Malifice. Because I am not part of Malifices imagination as my character is.
My character would not or could not have fallen if he truly was a Paladin of Sarenrae. Killing the kobold would have been a much bigger dilemma for him than it was for me, because it goes against the very grain of who he is and what defines him in Malifices world.
Does this make sense? I hope so.
Roberta Yang wrote:
I think paladins should fall the moment they deal lethal damage to anyone. After all, if they really cared, they'd just take a -4 penalty on their attack rolls to deal nonlethal damage (hey, Good isn't always expedient, but it's a necessary cost to avoid becoming just like the monsters you fight) or use a Merciful weapon at all times. Any lethal damage dealt might kill the victim, and every victim killed is someone the paladin has failed to redeem. After all, the paladin should have faith that every single one of them is redeemable.
Not sure if serious...
Have you met Malifice? You two would get along.
'I will seek out and destroy the spawn of the RoughBeast. If I cannot defeat them, I will give my life trying.
If my life would be wasted in the attempt, I will find
allies. If any fall because of my inaction, their deaths
lie upon my soul, and I will atone for each.'
Jubal Breakbottle wrote:
I did detect. I detected evil.
For those who are interested. My DM has stated I have broken my code as he interprets it. The code he has given me is this:
'A paladin must be of neutral good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, the paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority but only as long as that authority is not used for evil ends, strive to act benevolently at all times (showing kindness, charity, mercy and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.'
I don't recall anyone making that argument?
Firstly this is a trained soldier, that the DM had expressly gone out of his way to point out.
A trained and lethal enemy combatant complicit in and maybe responsible for the capture, torture and consumation of 5 human children.
What's more an Evil (yes I detected) Kobold. And here's a direct quote from their description in the Bestiary:
'Cowards and schemers, they never fight fair if
My character executed the creature for it's crimes, because it was evil and because it did not accept my offer of mercy.
As many people have quoted from Sarenrae's Paladin code:
'I will not abide evil, and will combat it with steel when
'I will redeem the ignorant with my words and my
If you have time read the whole thread Malifice.
I strongly advise we don't use this forum to speak to each other on.
Mysterious Stranger wrote:
I absolutely agree with you on this. IF the children suffer because of my inaction, their deaths absolutely lie on my conscience.
What's more, and I've thought about this. If the children are not in the catacombs of the monastery the deaths of the kobolds will lie on my conscience.
Actually, the DM and I are very close friends out of game. We often share beers together and get on very well.
It just so happens we are both very competitive when it comes to the game. Alot of the time to the detriment of the less experienced players. He'll rarely throw mobs at us that aren't statted up strongly and don't work in tight military formations. If the creatures large you can bet it has grapple AND constrict. I enjoy this greatly, and so does he. There may be some gentle prodding of eachother but nothing that we take personally. I should also add he's probably one of the best GM's around, but we have an in joke in the party that Combat Reflexes is a wasted feat in his campaigns because he's so technical with his monsters.
Thanks to everyone weighing in on this especially BB36 and Are.
I have been following the Paladin code for Sarenrae to what I believe is as close to its intent as possible. I'll quote a few of the tenets below which I think are applicable here:
I will redeem the ignorant with my words and my
I will not abide evil, and will combat it with steel when