Goblin Squad Member
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Greetings,
Being an old mmo gamer (started with the meridian59) I must say this whole project is sooo appealing to me and brings back memories of a rough and scary world, which imo everquest was.
I recall the first game moments where I ran out of the city of Felwithe to face my first monsters as a young magician. I slaughtered the bats at the outskirts of the city, not with ease but with a solid pace.
Then I wandered out a little bit more in the hunt for bats. Suddenly I saw a little orc grunt standing there at distance and I remember me thinking "Lovely, a new monster to put to the grave". Now this "easy" monster proved to be a completely different challenge and he handed me my ass in like notime. Suprised by the new challenge I ran back to my corpse to retrieve the item I had gotten, just to see that grunt guarding nearby my corpse. When he moved away a little bit I ran to the corpse and quickly looted it and instantly after I got aggro again.
Lesson learned from the first encounter I ran as fast I could and after a while I lost the aggro, just to find out that I was totally lost!! (no friendly maps at that time (which I loved since it made exploring much more fun). While trying to find my way back I made an encounter with a rare monster (I really fail to remember the name though). The fight was over really quick and again I bite the dirt and respawned with my first lost corpse as a result.
At that time I had the name of the monster written down on a piece of paper since revenge will be claimed someday. Quite a few lvls later I found that named mob again (after looking for it many man many times)and managed to secure a win over it and to my surprise it dropped gear that was far better then we common loots. I was stunned by how cool that was at the point.
This precise element has been lacking ALOT in most MMORPGs since Everquest. The last MMO's only gave an achievement upon the kill and nothing else.
I really would like to have this "feature" back in Pathfinder Online. Make sure that the rare wandering monsters are very rare but also make them have some kind of loot to remember that are of some better quality. Of course not all rare mobs should be soloable but some should and some should not.
This also makes exploring areas that you have already explored much more interesting and also the tracking skill gets a very valid use!
Just my few coppers and sorry for a long text until coming to point, but old memories hooked my there for a few minutes ;)
/Thrilled
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I remember waiting in line in EQ for hours for a chance to kill that one named mob that was the only source of a piece of equipment that was so much better than every other option. That was so much fun. I liked that crafting in EQ was just a money sink unless you were the top crafter on the server, and then there were roughly three things that you could craft that were better than the uncommon drops. That really shifted the economy away from resale of farmed items for farmed plat.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I remember waiting in line in EQ for hours for a chance to kill that one named mob that was the only source of a piece of equipment that was so much better than every other option. That was so much fun. I liked that crafting in EQ was just a money sink unless you were the top crafter on the server, and then there were roughly three things that you could craft that were better than the uncommon drops. That really shifted the economy away from resale of farmed items for farmed plat.
While I somewhat agree, I think that the rare monsters also need to be rare. I hate the idea of a line waiting for the same creature to appear. Persistance means when the rare monster is killed, he is dead, not back in 5 minutes. A similar monster can appear somewhere else in the world with possibly the same drops, but the predictable spawn point camping IMO does not fit PFO's goals at all.
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Goblin Squad Member
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While trying to find my way back I made an encounter with a rare monster (I really fail to remember the name though).
I'm guessing it was the Wasp Queen (I forget the name).
I remember waiting in line in EQ for hours for a chance to kill that one named mob that was the only source of a piece of equipment that was so much better than every other option. That was so much fun. I liked that crafting in EQ was just a money sink unless you were the top crafter on the server, and then there were roughly three things that you could craft that were better than the uncommon drops. That really shifted the economy away from resale of farmed items for farmed plat.
I hope you're being sarcastic...
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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How would you implement this idea in a way that maximized human interaction?
Put unique (no respawn) creatures in dungeons requiring a combination of numbers and varied skills to find and overcome, and have the rewards be partly coin, partly equipment, partly materials needed to craft better equipment, partly a material or catalyst needed for building construction, and partly something which is used primarily by PvP players.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
How would you implement this idea in a way that maximized human interaction?
IMO rare Super monsters. Things that literally take huge armies to take down. Dragons beasts etc... that roll over cities and if not dealt with quickly leave a wreckage of rubble in their path. Settlements should actually be encoraged to beg for outside settlements to help to deal with the threat quickly, rather than want horde the kill for themselves.
Upon destruction, instead of dying, they could become a harvesting site for a more or less unique material. Say dragon scales, special leathers etc... It should be enough to more than repay everyone who participated and hopefully they had negotiated a reasonable share of the bounty before agreeing to go and fight this thing.
IMO rare Super monsters. Things that literally take huge armies to take down. Dragons beasts etc... that roll over cities and if not dealt with quickly leave a wreckage of rubble in their path. Settlements should actually be encoraged to beg for outside settlements to help to deal with the threat quickly, rather than want horde the kill for themselves.
Upon destruction, instead of dying, they could become a harvesting site for a more or less unique material. Say dragon scales, special leathers etc... It should be enough to more than repay everyone who participated and hopefully they had negotiated a reasonable share of the bounty before agreeing to go and fight this thing.
I like what this guy is saying. Maybe have it spawning at a place fairly far away from the closest settlement and have it taking a few days to reach it, so people are able to gather up and take it down. Scouts being vital. These should be unique mobs and not respawning ever again. Make for epic battle that will be remembered and talked about. New players hearing stories of the epic battles.
You could also have rare mobs in the wilderness that spawns at random points. They could drop rare loot, and be targets for scouts. Of course you would need a small party to take them down so you would have to call your friends for it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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How would you implement this idea in a way that maximized human interaction?
One suggestion, I can think of is somewhat indirect, but: "FEAR". So if there is some trigger (could be a super powerful ritual spell?) for summoning a sort of demon-shade, a "Reaper":
1. It only comes out at night.
2. It is a master of ambush and is v difficult to detect once it starts stalking a particular quarry and will not give up the chase.
3. It's very deadly and can sap player's corpeal and incorpeal powers?
4. It's frequency of operation is very random and it can lay dormant for good stretches between kills.
5. It will restrict it's range to a particular area until destroyed.
6. Perhaps it will target particular characters for particular criteria?
7. It grows stronger/more troublesome with each kill
8. Requires several different classes to tackle it: eg track and trap it, defend/heal spells against it's attacks, stop it recharging it's power source and send it's ass back to hell... ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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How would you implement this idea in a way that maximized human interaction?
One suggestion, I can think of is somewhat indirect, but: "FEAR". So if there is some trigger (could be a super powerful ritual spell?) for summoning a sort of demon-shade, a "Reaper":
1. It only comes out at night.
2. It is a master of ambush and is v difficult to detect once it starts stalking a particular quarry and will not give up the chase.
3. It's very deadly and can sap player's corpeal and incorpeal powers?
4. It's frequency of operation is very random and it can lay dormant for good stretches between kills.
5. It will restrict it's range to a particular area until destroyed.
6. Perhaps it will target particular characters for particular criteria?
7. It grows stronger/more troublesome with each kill
8. Requires several different classes to tackle it: eg track and trap it, defend/heal spells against it's attacks, stop it recharging it's power source and send it's ass back to hell... ;)
So it's a plague (another idea?) in an area a bit like a serial killer, adds a horror element also. Victims will pass on the "fear".
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Goblin Squad Member
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IMO rare Super monsters. Things that literally take huge armies to take down. Dragons beasts etc... that roll over cities and if not dealt with quickly leave a wreckage of rubble in their path. Settlements should actually be encoraged to beg for outside settlements to help to deal with the threat quickly, rather than want horde the kill for themselves.
Upon destruction, instead of dying, they could become a harvesting site for a more or less unique material. Say dragon scales, special leathers etc... It should be enough to more than repay everyone who participated and hopefully they had negotiated a reasonable share of the bounty before agreeing to go and fight this thing.
I like what this guy is saying. Maybe have it spawning at a place fairly far away from the closest settlement and have it taking a few days to reach it, so people are able to gather up and take it down. Scouts being vital. These should be unique mobs and not respawning ever again. Make for epic battle that will be remembered and talked about. New players hearing stories of the epic battles.
You could also have rare mobs in the wilderness that spawns at random points. They could drop rare loot, and be targets for scouts. Of course you would need a small party to take them down so you would have to call your friends for it.
I also agree on the weaker ones existing, though it is much harder to justify and explain the group activity part of them. In the case of weaker ones that pose less threat, people are likely to try to keep the number of people involved to a minimum for the purpose of cutting the shares of loot to as small as possible. I mean sure you can cover more ground quicker, but in the event you don't know what you are looking for or where it is (Which I think is kind of a pre-req for something to be noted as rare, the idea of 15 people waiting for the rare creature to appear in the same spot they killed it last time IMO is just silly).
Though I do admit rare smaller monsters could create better conflict sides of things. Or even small creatures that are very hard to find, that have effects on the areas around them, both positive and negative. Say some fey, unicorns or something that could have positive effect on crops and other consistant resources around in the area they exist, but also a large 1 time profit that could be made by killing such... creating a new form of villain PC as well as economic sabatoge for war, Poachers.
How would you implement this idea in a way that maximized human interaction?Put unique (no respawn) creatures in dungeons requiring a combination of numbers and varied skills to find and overcome, and have the rewards be partly coin, partly equipment, partly materials needed to craft better equipment, partly a material or catalyst needed for building construction, and partly something which is used primarily by PvP players.
Agreed. To maximize interaction, the rewards need to be varied enough that stuff will almost certainly drop that your group can't use. Compelling them to find someone who can. Ideally that stuff would be rare and valuable enough (as it should be, being from a rare encounter) that whoever can use it would be excited to get it. The trick being, not making it so rare that people wait in line to kill it, or having the reward be a bottleneck in someone's quest/craft that they might be stuck on for weeks.
I would not limit such encounters to dungeons though. The idea seems to me to be a rare mini-boss type encounter one could find anywhere. I also wouldn't limit it to just being a creature. A trap, puzzle or simply a loot cache (requiring multiple skills to find/disarm/unlock/smash) could supplement the encounter. Split the loot between the mob and the cache. Then if you are exploring solo and are powerful or skillful, you could conceivably defeat one but not the other for a modest reward. But a group would have a greater chance of besting the whole encounter.
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Goblin Squad Member
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How would you implement this idea in a way that maximized human interaction?Put unique (no respawn) creatures in dungeons requiring a combination of numbers and varied skills to find and overcome, and have the rewards be partly coin, partly equipment, partly materials needed to craft better equipment, partly a material or catalyst needed for building construction, and partly something which is used primarily by PvP players.
Adding to this, non-standard variations of known creatures (named, strong, special attacks or defenses) could be part of the random spawns from harvest sites as well as dungeons - and the most developed sites (worked by many people over a long time) would have more chance of the non-standard spawns.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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How would you implement this idea in a way that maximized human interaction?Put unique (no respawn) creatures in dungeons requiring a combination of numbers and varied skills to find and overcome, and have the rewards be partly coin, partly equipment, partly materials needed to craft better equipment, partly a material or catalyst needed for building construction, and partly something which is used primarily by PvP players.Agreed. To maximize interaction, the rewards need to be varied enough that stuff will almost certainly drop that your group can't use. Compelling them to find someone who can. Ideally that stuff would be rare and valuable enough (as it should be, being from a rare encounter) that whoever can use it would be excited to get it. The trick being, not making it so rare that people wait in line to kill it, or having the reward be a bottleneck in someone's quest/craft that they might be stuck on for weeks.
I would not limit such encounters to dungeons though. The idea seems to me to be a rare mini-boss type encounter one could find anywhere. I also wouldn't limit it to just being a creature. A trap, puzzle or simply a loot cache (requiring multiple skills to find/disarm/unlock/smash) could supplement the encounter. Split the loot between the mob and the cache. Then if you are exploring solo and are powerful or skillful, you could conceivably defeat one but not the other for a modest reward. But a group would have a greater chance of besting the whole encounter.
Things that are rare cannot be found everywhere; they need to be sought out. Clues to the location and nature of rare dungeons could be scattered randomly in the wild, but random traps, loot caches, and stronger monsters shouldn't be easily found by wandering aimlessly.
For reference:
"Dungeon" is a catch-all term that refers to any enclosed space for adventuring. It need not be a constructed space; it could be a natural cavern or even a forest, jungle, or other terrain type. Typically, dungeons are designed so that they become progressively more challenging as they are explored, often culminating with a materially hard challenge at the end. A variety of obstacles must be overcome to reach the end content, such as monsters, traps, locks, illusions, hidden doors, puzzles, and complex interactive events involving the denizens of the area.
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Goblin Squad Member
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How would you implement this idea in a way that maximized human interaction?
OH! I have a good idea here.
First off I keep hearing people talking about a "rare" monster spawning in the same spot. Horrible, horrible idea. "Rare" monsters should be rare... and hard to find.
What I would do is this. Make the monsters spawn randomly around a much larger area. The white stag with it's valuable fur and antlers spawns in the Exalted Woods, but it could be ANYWHERE in the exalted woods. So there is no one area to find the white stag. You have to hunt it down.
At that point I would make tracking come into play. And I would make it require teamwork to take down most rares. Maybe for the white stag it requires trackers working in coordination to corner it, and the more trackers you have the easier that will become.
Or for the Tattered Dragon (An ancient red dragon Wyrm with tattered wings.) you may only need one person to track it down, but it is going to require more than one person to kill it. There might even be a strategy for taking it down some way other than just attacking it head on that requires several people working in coordination such as one person leading it into a trap, another springing the trap, and another administering the fatal blow. And of course that plan would require a tracker and someone who can build a trap. To keep with the "it moves around" theme you could make it so there is many large rocks or some other terrain detail scattered throughout the area which are objects you can use to start creating the trap.
@Decius: If rares are only in "dungeons" (per PFO definition), you always know where you will find them. Therefore all your exploration can be focused on finding dungeons. I would rather there be things like this out in the world as well. After all, they will be rare either way.
If rares are only in dungeons, they could potentially never be soloed. Requiring a group is one way of maximizing interaction, but not the only way. Having valuable loot drop that you will likely have no use for is another way, requiring a different kind of interaction. The loot doesn't have to be a windfall, just valuable enough to make the attempt to find someone who can use it a priority before you get killed and it disappears.
If rares are also out in the world, finding one and setting up a solo hideout to ambush solo adventurers could be an effective and interesting playstyle. You could wait for an adventurer to engage the rare and then try to kill them both, or just snipe the cache and disappear. Yet another type of interaction.
Say you're an explorer. You're passable in combat against mobs of typical difficulty for the area. You run across a rare you don't have the skills to handle. Now you have a reason to call for help that you might not otherwise have had.
I think having rares outside as well as inside dungeons is very important, and would go farther toward maximizing interaction than restricting them to dungeons. I think this is true of any difficulty level of rare creature, from the soloable wasp queen to the raid worthy dragon.
As for how rare, obviously making the times and places somewhat random would be key. Rarity should also be proportional to difficulty. At the low end of rare, a wasp could spawn every hour-ish, to give newbie adventurers a fair chance at finding one with some regularity. Going out and hunting rares with a friend as noobs is fun, meaningful interaction. On the high end, I imagine dragons might have timers measuring about a week, or even longer.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Decius: If rares are only in "dungeons" (per PFO definition), you always know where you will find them. Therefore all your exploration can be focused on finding dungeons. I would rather there be things like this out in the world as well. After all, they will be rare either way.
How is that the case? Dungeons themselves haven't been defined as static locations. Most dungeons disappear as soon as they are cleared. Modules are the only content that was confirmed to be in a static location.
IF rare spawns like dragons and other big monsters make it into the game, i hope they spawn very rarely, talking about months in between, and have a impact on the game world after they are dead. Be it like a resource, a place where minions of the fallen monsters spawn from, a place to get a buff, or just a landmark. Many options there.
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Goblin Squad Member
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How would you implement this idea in a way that maximized human interaction?
Make it so those roaming the wild cannot find the actual rare spawn...rather they find some sort of hint that can be identified/tracked by an alternate class/profession/knowledge skill of a specified rank. To illustrate, my fighter finds "odd tracks, maybe a ranger or druid will be able to identify them." I have to find a ranger or druid and am given the option to ask them. Based upon the tracks I found and the level of the ranger/druid they may or may not be able to identify them. If not, I need to find a higher level one.
If they can identify it, I get a mark on my map...but I will also require to be with a person of the prescribed class/profession/knowledge skill of the specified rank for the rare to spawn.
This would also offer a use for the knowledge skills if it was entirely based upon them. It also makes bards useful giving them a certain percent chance to identify any "clue" (using bardic knowledge).
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Goblin Squad Member
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As alluded to already, a very rare and powerful creature which spreads PLAGUE among players. I know wow had unanticipated effects due to a bug when they introduced such a dynamic, but it would be the sort of threat that spreads: "PANIC".
Plenty of interaction/avoidance/contagion and oc healing antidotes and weakening an enemy kingdom leaving them vulnerable to attack etc.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
As alluded to already, a very rare and powerful creature which spreads PLAGUE among players. I know wow had unanticipated effects due to a bug when they introduced such a dynamic, but it would be the sort of threat that spreads: "PANIC".
I also like this idea. It also plays into the concept of sandbox with themepark influences. It's a special - ideally unique monster-event - (themepark aspect) which gives the players huge opportunities to interact.
Alchemists would search for an antidote (maybe including a dangerous mission to get the original poison from the monster?) and maybe sell it, maybe give it out for free. Warriors who secure the area, making sure infected people don't go anywhere, where they shouldn't go (e.g. throne room of the king?). A group of adventurers trying to slay the monster, historians trying to find out as much as possible about the monsters. For historians and such I see a great opportunity to push the lore forward (which again is some sort of themepark aspect - simply a one-time-attraction). Events like this would actually motivate people to really participate - unlike in Guild Wars 2, which has an event system that repeats itself every 20 minutes or so. Implementing rare monsters is a huge opportunity to drive the game forward, include more lore and give them certain inputs about what to do ingame for people who are struggling with the sandbox concept now and then (as does every, even avid, sandbox player, I'm sure).I hope my thoughts are coherent enough to understand. Quite difficult in a foreign language, but hey, I tried. ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
As alluded to already, a very rare and powerful creature which spreads PLAGUE among players. I know wow had unanticipated effects due to a bug when they introduced such a dynamic, but it would be the sort of threat that spreads: "PANIC".
Plenty of interaction/avoidance/contagion and oc healing antidotes and weakening an enemy kingdom leaving them vulnerable to attack etc.
100x +1 to this. Actually reminds me of one of the great events in WoW. The corrupted blood bug. (basically a raid boss had a debuff that was a disease that spreads to nearby allies, but failed to anticipate people with the infection leaving the instance before being cured). While WoW's version of it was entirely accidental, and blatently destructive to the game as a whole while it was up (the plague infected NPCs in the towns, of which the NPCs could out regen the damage, but low level players entering the town, would drop dead instantly).
Despite all of it's problems, I would say this accident was great for the game. The way the dev's attempted quarantine (of which players kept managing to break etc....) many players were drastically impressed by the layer of depth and realism that the event caused the game. In addition the media coverage said bug got most likely caused a surge in subscriptions to the game.
IMO if a plague mechanic were added intentionally (Meaning it was actually planned and thus scaled, with impact on newbies actually considered etc...) The result could be very rewarding to the game as a whole
Alchemists would search for an antidote (maybe including a dangerous mission to get the original poison from the monster?) and maybe sell it, maybe give it out for free.
Also brilliant. make finding a cure, and distributing that cure to the masses a chalange for a settlement. The only thing I would emphasize there, is ensuring that this would not be implimented in a way that the cure could be withheld forever. IE if killing the monster were a requirement, what happens if someone kills the monster, locks the venom pouch in secure NPC storage or holds it on a logged out alt and ensures the cure is never gained. Though I do admit if the cure could be forced to be stored somewhere that is always possible to attack. (say a settlements storage). A hostage situation that holds out until either one side pays a ransom, or the people plaugued by the disease mount up an enormous army and take the antidote themselves by force, could be a very interesting dynamic as well.
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Goblin Squad Member
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How would you implement this idea in a way that maximized human interaction?
1. Never have a 'rare' 'legendary' 'mythic' 'uber' 'shiny' entity drop a singular item.
2. Use realistic drop amounts, if you kill a dragon, you get more than one eye and 5 scales, you get 2 eyes, 5 tons of dragon meat, 2 tons of dragon bone, 25 gallons of dragon pee, and everything else that beast has to offer. The limiting part is skills, the opportunity should always be there.
When it all comes down to it, the one thing you want to avoid is a situation where two people want the same item, and are both equally entitled(Anyone who hit it once with a sword is equally entitled, none of this 'the main tank deserves it more than the off tank'). I loathe any system that encourages repeating content, if you want to get the Rib of Bork to make the Wand of Uber, you should only have to work for that rib once, no matter how many people are also trying to get it in your party. If a line ever forms to do anything in the game, shut down the servers and try again.
I would put 'rare' enemies on the lower end of the importance spectrum. Every game has rare/unique mobs, it's a done-to-death idea that should stay in pure themeparks. Don't go down the path of making every person feel like their character is some uber-important player in the making of the world. Embrace the sandbox and make the player a citizen of the world. If someone wants to be well known, they should build their own reputation player to player.
Focus simply on making a lot to do, and as much as possible at launch. Right now I'm playing the game Sleeping Dogs, a sandbox set in modern china, and have barely progressed in the story because the side stuff is more fun. Have repeating quests that never follow a set path, they have an objective that involves a randomly placed target. Take SWG's mission terminal system and improve on it. Do to mission creation, what SPORE did to creature/vehicle/building/race/planet creation.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So a lot of responses to my question were of two varieties:
1: Ways to make it cool for one person or a small group to interact with PvE content.
2: Suggestions to make reselling the output of the encounter the point of interaction.
The first fails because it maximizes the interaction of the involved people with the content, not with each other or the wider social graph of other characters.
The second fails because if the economic advantage is meaningful farming the encounter will become routine and the flow of the components will become commodities.
Think about the idea that whatever the answer is it has to be repeatable hundreds, maybe thousands of times each day. It also has to be something that both individuals, small groups and large organizations might all compete for. And remember than in an MMO, nothing can really be mechanically unique or of extreme limited availability without creating artificial winners and losers, or restricting content to a tiny minority of the people who are financially supporting the game.
I'd like you all to try harder. The question is "how do we make the presence of unique opponents that produce exceptional loot maximize human interaction"?
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So a lot of responses to my question were of two varieties:
1: Ways to make it cool for one person or a small group to interact with PvE content.
2: Suggestions to make reselling the output of the encounter the point of interaction.
The first fails because it maximizes the interaction of the involved people with the content, not with each other or the wider social graph of other characters.
The second fails because if the economic advantage is meaningful farming the encounter will become routine and the flow of the components will become commodities.
Think about the idea that whatever the answer is it has to be repeatable hundreds, maybe thousands of times each day. It also has to be something that both individuals, small groups and large organizations might all compete for. And remember than in an MMO, nothing can really be mechanically unique or of extreme limited availability without creating artificial winners and losers, or restricting content to a tiny minority of the people who are financially supporting the game.
I'd like you all to try harder. The question is "how do we make the presence of unique opponents that produce exceptional loot maximize human interaction"?
Then consider no loot drops whatsoever. I'm assuming the unique spawns are totally random in location & time/duration. Instead, allow for the rare spawns to contribute to a Player Nation/Settlements construction. Possibly decreasing the production times, or lower the cost of materials.
This does two things: Even though the whereabouts & timing of unique mobs are completely unpredictable, the responses we get as a player will be logical. And second, this contribution would not go to one individual but to their Player Nation/Settlement.
So instead of the drops/materials becoming the focus & as you said fails due to the lack of interaction with each other, I think this solves the problem & emphasizes group participation while it can also be repeated by individuals, small groups & large organizations. Now the details of how much & amounts, those would obviously go through testing as the game goes into alpha/beta etc. That's my 2cpr.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Loot and such doesn't necessarily need to be the goal to take down a 'rare' creature.
This is a little cliche...
A ancient red dragon decides to take residence near a settlement, which disrupts the flow of trade, people and livestock go missing, and other things.
The settlement needs to deal with this major problem and form the necessary responds to rid the area of the red dragon.
And the otherside,
You could have a silver dragon take up resident, which provides some protection for the trade routes and any number of benefits.
A rival settlement wants to take over but realize it would be in their best interest to get rid of the silver dragon before the proceed with their plans.
In both cases it will required a coordinated effort to accomplish.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Banesama: Yes, A Dragon should be a rare and nation(s)-sized problem to deal with!! So it dominates and disrupts an area sounds good to me, and possibly likes to sleep on a bed of treasure (a lot of treasure)? So a problem that snowballs is always good.
What about a particular messenger of a diety? It arrives and calls it's master's minions/believers to go on a "holy war" against it's main rival/ bitterest enemies or otherwise spread it's influence in some form (gaining converts, building a new temple in hostile lands, burning down rival god's places of worship etc). It bargains some great rewards for those worthy of proving their faith in the diety etc? Perhaps atst another "messenger" of another god is doing likewise for it's followers, having been tipped off that the rival god's footsoldiers are afoot spreading their filth? Perhaps tiered rewards or just earning the diety's influential favor for use when called on eg a dungeon boss?
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Think about the idea that whatever the answer is it has to be repeatable hundreds, maybe thousands of times each day. It also has to be something that both individuals, small groups and large organizations might all compete for. And remember than in an MMO, nothing can really be mechanically unique or of extreme limited availability without creating artificial winners and losers, or restricting content to a tiny minority of the people who are financially supporting the game.I'd like you all to try harder. The question is "how do we make the presence of unique opponents that produce exceptional loot maximize human interaction"?
If it's repeatable that often, it is an ordinary experience and should have ordinary rewards- even if there is an 'elite' creature with a procedurally generated proper name.
To have a unique opponent that produces exceptional loot, it needs to be rare enough that it is a subject of conversation when it happens. In order for a lot of people to know about it, it needs to take a significant fraction of the players to complete.
Then all it takes is balancing the rewards with the effort required.
One form such an event could take would be an infernal invasion spilling though into the area, bringing along supplies and equipment which can be seized, provided that a successful counterattack can be managed before those supplies are consumed by the attacking army.
I'm not sure how to balance EvP content like that; my first though would be to have the first such event start in the wilderness near where two hostile nations meet, and see if they call a truce to deal with a mutual enemy and/or try to take advantage of the complicating factor; that has the disadvantage of providing the rewards preferentially to exactly the worst groups to test radical new stuff out.
You could just have rare spawns for the fun of discovering it when you explore. They don't have to carry special loot. Just make them really rare. And have them be of a unique model/color. People would tell stories about them. Like in real life where you have the yeti, aliens etc.
If these encounters are supposed to repeated hundreds/thousands of times each day, then they really aren't rare spawns anymore if you ask me.
But you could have monsters spawn to block/ambush trade routes, spread plague among population/resources. I like the idea of having some creature spawn that gives your area a bonus instead of being a threat. If these bonuses are high enough enemy nations could go into skirmishes to take it down, while the nation in ''possession'' of the bonus creature would have to defend it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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People would tell stories about them. Like in real life where you have the yeti, aliens etc.
to defend it.
Exactly! What stays with you over the time of playing an MMO aren't necessarily items or epic loot. It's the stories you are part of. I don't mean the artificial quest stories, I mean the real stories about how you and your friends saw something or maybe took on a big, big monster or had fun otherwise. These are the stories you tell over the years. I'm studying journalism and that's one of the core things we learn there. Statistics, numbers are all fine but those aren't the things that stay with you. The things you keep in your mind are the things that touch you emotionally. And what a touch it would be, if you encounter a rare creature and somehow confirm that creature and therefore change the lore of your nation. Of course it's arbitrary, but isn't life a bit arbitrary sometimes?
That whole "everybody has to experience the same things" is a problem in my opinion. It creates artificial heroes, a lot of heroes. So that it doesn't mean anything anymore. PVE content has lost its potential to create heroes. Of course, PVP players get glory fast, if they have the right equipment and only PVP and you can see them in a ranking. Maybe they can generate some kind of reputation which simply isn't possible in PVE content because in PVE everybody is a hero. The possibility of rare monsters gives players the opportunity to be real heroes.
And I'm not just talking about a random rare encounter, I'm also talking of the dragon, that Banesama mentioned. A dragon, who is a nationwide problem can make A LOT of heroes. The researchers, who - in a dangerous mission - find the weakness of the creature, the group of thieves and sneaky adventurers who steal the most valuable artifact to lure the dragon into a trap and the group of fierce warriors, who then slay the dragon. And - of course - the historian who writes all these names down and creates a scripture, which everybody can read in the nationwide library... And the bards and their songs, if roleplayed correctly... This is the stuff that legends are made of.
That whole event crap that repeats itself devaluates the efforts of players and it nullifies the "hero-factor"
Ryan, you said it would create artificial winners and losers. That may be - at the beginning. But when other players see, what you can really reach for in this game, they put all effort into being a dragonslayer, they train hard to become a masterful fighter and this is their goal - to become a hero in battling a rare creature. Like a crafter wants to become a mastercrafter or an explorer who wants to be everywhere first. It's a motivational thing, I think :)
While i certainly understand that the content you create should be experienced by as many people as possible (especially if you don't have a large budget), having random things in a game just enhances replayability if you ask me. It makes exploring more exciting if you don't really know what's around the next corner.
The random things doesn't have to give bonuses like overpowered items/resources. It could just be a bit different from your every day life in the game. It makes the world feel alive. So what if you didn't get to experience that dragon attacking that settlement on the other side of the world. You heard stories about it. It excites you that something like that might happen again. If nothing new is left to be experienced, i only see that as a reason to quit the game.
Edit: Winners/losers are only made if bonuses from encountering random things gives an ingame advantage imo.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So a lot of responses to my question were of two varieties:
1: Ways to make it cool for one person or a small group to interact with PvE content.
2: Suggestions to make reselling the output of the encounter the point of interaction.
The first fails because it maximizes the interaction of the involved people with the content, not with each other or the wider social graph of other characters.
The second fails because if the economic advantage is meaningful farming the encounter will become routine and the flow of the components will become commodities.
Think about the idea that whatever the answer is it has to be repeatable hundreds, maybe thousands of times each day. It also has to be something that both individuals, small groups and large organizations might all compete for. And remember than in an MMO, nothing can really be mechanically unique or of extreme limited availability without creating artificial winners and losers, or restricting content to a tiny minority of the people who are financially supporting the game.
I'd like you all to try harder. The question is "how do we make the presence of unique opponents that produce exceptional loot maximize human interaction"?
The one way I can think of kills persistence. Warhammer had an interesting idea, where you have hundreds of people working together to break the capital city, and once you break into the main keep a raid is opened for 10 hours or so to kill the king and get the best loot in the game.
Problems with that system:
It kills persistence, the undertaking to get to the king requires hundreds of players, but fighting the king with hundreds of players wouldn't be fun so immersion is broken and the final battle is instanced.
I disagree that this needs to happen hundreds/thousands of times a day, in warhammer city assaults happened maybe once a week on an active server(until they made it too easy)
I would like to see finding one of these unique opponents require a 20th badge(highest possible in whatever system you design) skill(tracking or intelligence gathering or something else). Once you start on the path you would need help from a few(or a lot) 20th class badge characters to get to the unique opponent. There should be some visual queues on how to defeat the opponent, or how they behave, but these shouldn't be uncovered for a few years after 20th badge characters emerge. If you have 5 parameters with 25 possibilities each gives you ~10 million monsters.
If you get to the unique opponent and defeat them, you go into their lair, and the game grants each player a single chest, this chest contains 2 items for their highest class badge, and 1 item for their 2nd highest class badge, and a few random items for any class, all of these items are crafting components to make parts that go to the 100 possible sets of armor/weapons that are the best in the game. And the group gets a large portion of economic items(things a single player has no use for)
TL/DR: Unique monsters require 20th(highest) badge collaboration, are randomly generated from thousands of possibilities and drop crafting components for highest tier equipment that each player gets a game-mechanic enforced equal share of.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yeah, I actually had no interest in "lootz"...I was thinking about the experience. Also, I had been thinking of the problem of rare spawns, not 100 times a day spawns. But, I do see a real failure with such a system as I was thinking of. It only engages a small population, not really worth the effort of coding compared to some higher return projects.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So a lot of responses to my question were of two varieties:
1: Ways to make it cool for one person or a small group to interact with PvE content.
2: Suggestions to make reselling the output of the encounter the point of interaction.
The first fails because it maximizes the interaction of the involved people with the content, not with each other or the wider social graph of other characters.
The second fails because if the economic advantage is meaningful farming the encounter will become routine and the flow of the components will become commodities.
Think about the idea that whatever the answer is it has to be repeatable hundreds, maybe thousands of times each day. It also has to be something that both individuals, small groups and large organizations might all compete for. And remember than in an MMO, nothing can really be mechanically unique or of extreme limited availability without creating artificial winners and losers, or restricting content to a tiny minority of the people who are financially supporting the game.
I'd like you all to try harder. The question is "how do we make the presence of unique opponents that produce exceptional loot maximize human interaction"?
One thing I've always disliked is weird loot drop from creatures. i.e. You slay the owlbear and discover a +1 breastplate. So I'm hoping that this sort of thing will be taken into account in PFO.
One option (which relates to this topic) is for some rare monsters to have a nest which has the actual rare loot drops, rather than have the rare loot on its body at the time of death.
So while it is a challenge to find the rare creature, it is an equally great challenge to try and track down its lair. So perhaps in order to find a creatures lair you must first kill it, then follow its tracks back to its lair. The tracks may take you thru various dangerous areas and then end with a showdown with the rare creatures mate and possible the young. Its also possible that the rare creature co-habitats with other creatures for mutual protection, thus posing a greater threat
This would encourage groups to try and hunt down these creatures, as you would need a group with the right skills (fighting, tracking, searching, stealth, healing etc) to overcome the rare monster and the other encounters along the way.
So instead of hunting down rare wandering monster for their loot, that is only the first step in a much grander adventure. Maximising human interaction in the process.
Another reason for hunting down rare creatures could be to meet certain achievements to unlock a merit badge.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So a lot of responses to my question were of two varieties:
1: Ways to make it cool for one person or a small group to interact with PvE content.
2: Suggestions to make reselling the output of the encounter the point of interaction.
The first fails because it maximizes the interaction of the involved people with the content, not with each other or the wider social graph of other characters.
The second fails because if the economic advantage is meaningful farming the encounter will become routine and the flow of the components will become commodities.
Think about the idea that whatever the answer is it has to be repeatable hundreds, maybe thousands of times each day. It also has to be something that both individuals, small groups and large organizations might all compete for. And remember than in an MMO, nothing can really be mechanically unique or of extreme limited availability without creating artificial winners and losers, or restricting content to a tiny minority of the people who are financially supporting the game.
I'd like you all to try harder. The question is "how do we make the presence of unique opponents that produce exceptional loot maximize human interaction"?
One thing I've always disliked is weird loot drop from creatures. i.e. You slay the owlbear and discover a +1 breastplate. So I'm hoping that this sort of thing will be taken into account in PFO.
One option (which relates to this topic) is for some rare monsters to have a nest which has the actual rare loot drops, rather than have the rare loot on its body at the time of death.
So while it is a challenge to find the rare creature, it is an equally great challenge to try and track down its lair. So perhaps in order to find a creatures lair you must first kill it, then follow its tracks back to its lair. The tracks may take you thru various dangerous areas and then end with a showdown with the rare creatures mate and possible the young. Its also possible that the rare...
I like how you thought about incorporating furthering the whole concept of killing rare creatures!
My personal idea for this and making it more socially viable would maybe making unique mobs randomly generated! As heroes rise and fall in worlds such as Golarion, as do the threats that face the heroes. If possible, I would suggest having unique mobs or encounters be randomly generated, with a high amount of variation on the type of encounter (and where it leads!), the monsters inside of it, and the loot itself! Some ways to get social interactions together might be something akin to a bounty board, open calls for heroes to search for threats together for fame and fortune!
The idea behind the Bounty Boards would basically be like what we see playing the tabletop game itself. In towns, local villagers may post up on a bounty board about a monster or some problem that is plaguing the town or area (which would allow for the more traditional 'quests' to be placed here as well!). The boards would provide contracts similar to player-based ones, basically saying "Hey, we need help!" making it taken in a way as a form of mobile quest compared to more traditional 'find a dungeon, run through it and solve the problem we have with it', as these unique mobs may move around the area, or get suddenly killed by another group unsuspectingly. When players go out to find the monster slain, they may run into the other group, perhaps searching for its home and the treasures it may hold? Social dynamics may come through those groups interacting with each other, possibly creating conflict between them or an alliance to find the rest of the treasure the monster's lair may hold.
The monsters themselves would have to be varied and unique, possibly changing in regards to hex placement, and no two should be distinctly the same (no same name, just a general type of monster with its own unique moniker! As an example, during a tabletop game we fought with a bugbear named Walkar that was plaguing a small town with some goblins and eventually happened upon his lair, which we actually had to fight with another group of adventurers which wanted to claim our bounty and the loot his lair held with less competition, we eventually had something similar happen where we killed a more notorious and different monster but this time did not encounter another group of players, but instead a greater adventure hook!).
A way to possibly make slaying these 'Notorious Creatures' more socially rewarding, is to perhaps also apply some form of reputation and trophy reward to slaying these creatures. Maybe when players kill a unique mob and returns for the reward, in addition to the thanks and reward from townsfolk, they also add this mob to a personal 'rap-sheet' of Special events, as well as an increase to their reputation around the area (and perhaps further, which would play into their player based reputation by showing they have skill as an adventurer). These deeds may also be heard about when players gather information about this particular player or group, with more well-known and powerful creatures being of greater note than others (so you can't go around killing 50 Unique bandits and expect to think you're now the most well-known Hero in all of the Inner Sea), so when players of greater strength than others feel as though their accomplishments really mean something, and people will acknowledge them. That also plays into trophies and special loot, perhaps specially named items or trophies may be available for those that become professional 'Monster Hunters' because of their exploits, such as through the slaying of a well-known dragon, would possibly make their item being able to be called 'Dragon-Hewer', or some form of special item or trophy of that equivalent, their items and trophies gaining a reputation and story of their own to tell fellow heroes during a local jaunt at the tavern!
These physical and social rewards would be able to be gained from many different unique mobs or events that spawn/occur and wander around hexes, not being stuck in one predefined area causing people to clutter around this one spawn area to kill a specific dragon for the loot he drops alone. Things like this would be everywhere around Pathfinder Online, just as it would be in the world of Golarion. The world is large, filled with many different people and beasts, and people take notice to those that are known for slaying great threats to the world and carrying their own uniquely named items! Of course, they also have to deal with they threats such a reputation and gear brings, as someone may just want that item you have for the reputation it brings with it, or for the prestige of defeating such a skilled adventurer...
Or at least something like that. I think this would clear up the whole going for one specific unique mob, prevent people from flocking over to the best specific item and having 1000 copies of it across the world. It allows people to have special gear exclusive to them, along with the idea that they have slain their own unique monster and gained a special bit of social fame for NPCs and PCs to see.
I hope this is a good idea that people agree with! :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd like you all to try harder. The question is "how do we make the presence of unique opponents that produce exceptional loot maximize human interaction"?
Are you familiar with the sea towers from Darkfall?
I think its like every 12 days, they become vulnerable to attack. Everyone is aware they became vulnerable to attack, and whichever clan manages to take the sea tower first wins some massive rewards, as well as having a statue flying their clan's name in front of every major NPC city for all the new players to see.
The result is a MASSIVE sea battle between hundreds of players every 12 days in order to gain control of this sea battle.
That may be one way to do it. Have an invasions come from parts of Golarion outside the PFO map. Scouts could report that the invasion is coming so that NPC heralds can say "THE CHELISH ARE COMING, THEIR FORCES WILL COME THROUGH THE EXALTED WOODS IN FOURTEEN DAYS AND FIVE HOURS! THE PALADINS OF IOEMEDAE ARE OFFERING A SUBSTANTIAL REWARD TO WHOEVER TAKES THEIR GENERAL'S HEAD!"
That would create an interesting situation. You would need a strong force to fight through the invasion and take the head of the commander, but other forces might try to take all the glory for themselves. Either way you get some meaningful player interaction.
Just a thought.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That invasion idea, Andius, is very nifty.
Another idea, that is homing in on the idea of a "unique" monster idea, more specifically: If you have an NPC of repute who seems to be a good person, but actually they're a disguised [Insert: Appropriate Demon/Diablo] and their presence is causing hordes of demons to infest an area. So the trick is for players to find out who the NPC is and more challenging the means to unmask them. Perhaps with the option to kill the wrong person and suffer heavy penalties with no rewards. Upon unmasking said NPC turns into their true form (Think Charles Dance in The Golden Child?!).
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Goblin Squad Member
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So a lot of responses to my question were of two varieties:
1: Ways to make it cool for one person or a small group to interact with PvE content.
2: Suggestions to make reselling the output of the encounter the point of interaction.
The first fails because it maximizes the interaction of the involved people with the content, not with each other or the wider social graph of other characters.
The second fails because if the economic advantage is meaningful farming the encounter will become routine and the flow of the components will become commodities.
Think about the idea that whatever the answer is it has to be repeatable hundreds, maybe thousands of times each day. It also has to be something that both individuals, small groups and large organizations might all compete for. And remember than in an MMO, nothing can really be mechanically unique or of extreme limited availability without creating artificial winners and losers, or restricting content to a tiny minority of the people who are financially supporting the game.
I'd like you all to try harder. The question is "how do we make the presence of unique opponents that produce exceptional loot maximize human interaction"?
First I would like to clarify the meaning of my original post.
What I was looking for as a feature in Pathfinder Online is the possibility of suddenly stumble into a very very rare spawn. This spawn should imo be a total random spawn (which means he can spawn anywhere in the hex and and also means that he will despawn after a set amount of time.
Since this monster is so rare it also holds some decent item. With a decent item I mean an item that are above the average drops of the current difficulty level. Sometimes it may even have some kind of unique ability, maybe nothing that affects how well you perform in combat but maybe more of a utility feature, which makes it very sought after but still not making any unbalances.
This rare monster could be either a solo content up to group/raid content.
The rewards should differ depending on the type of rare monster. The more rare the better loot and group/raid encounters should also increase the quality of the loot.
How to find these monsters? Well one of the biggest purposes with these monsters are imo to promote the exploring of areas. So basically many of these encounters should be found when you are out exploring and suddenly stumble upon them. Then you can also have tracking skills etc.
Now to address your question "how do we make the presence of unique opponents that produce exceptional loot maximize human interaction"?
My main request was more to revive the rare monsters that provided some decent loot and also encouraged the exploring. Those are most likely not what you was asking for in your question. So I would try to keep them out of that particular question. However your question is very exciting to and I can't see why your "idea" wouldn't live together with the "basic" rare mobs as I presented above.
So here's my take on your challenge:
# SCENARIO 1
1.Initiation phase:
Since the purpose here is to maximise human interaction then I can see many scenarios of initializing these spawn. I will present some of them here
* A player finds a runestone in the wilderness. The runestone itself has ancient writings describing a summoning ritual. The ritual itself requires many things to be done and not only that, it also needs to be done within a certain timelimit (the timer starts when the player reads the description). In this case the summoning ritual requires 10 materials that can be found in different parts of the zone and even in other nearby zones.
2. The gathering of materials
It's impossible for one person to manage to pull of and get all these materials by himself within the timelimit. So this promotes the use of human interaction from other players.
So in this case the lone player quickly asks in his guildchat if there are any players available to help out and 5 responds that they are nearby and willing to help out and the player they gives them direction on what to do to get these materials (according to the description on the runestone). So that means 6 of the materials can be gathered by the player and his guildies. Now still 4 parts are needed and to be able to solve this he turns to the zone chat and 4 people quickly shows interesting in helping out and they also get the instructions needed.
The players manage to get all these materials to gather and they meet up at the location where the summoning ritual will be performed. They all put the materials needed into a bowl that has been handcrafted into a large rock.
3. Execution of the summoning ritual
Now the ritual begins and the players may have to defend the location during the summon ritual and once the ritual is done an ancient creature from the otherworld spawns and it's intensions are grim and vile. A battle between the players and the creature occurs and the players end up on the winning side and thus gain access to the loot.
Now there a numerous ways to limit this encounter... ie you can make it so only the players that has retrieved a piece of the materials and putting them into the bowl are allowed to participate in the rolling of the loot. You can also after the ritual start a new timer which allows the players to gather more people since the monster they summoned may be beyond there capabilities at this point. All this is a way to make the numbers of players to fit the encounter you have in mind.
Another initiation example to gather more players to the "event":
Suddenly the players hear silent whispers in the wind. The whispers seems to be of a magical nature. (zone wide announcement). The whispering voice says "Help me, I beg you to help me!!! I am a captive to some foul beast. You will be rewarded if you assist me escape! **Then add the requirements**
So basically two different things.. my initial request is a rather simple feature but still makes it alot more fun to run around in zones exploring. The rewards are better then normal (which means they last a bit longer until being replaced by better gear).
/Thrilled
The question is "how do we make the presence of unique opponents that produce exceptional loot maximize human interaction"?
I don't think the original suggestion is for unique opponents. Unique strongly implies named which would obviously break persistence. I think the suggestion is merely for rare elites. That's how I interpreted it anyway.
On the subject of interpretation, would it be possible to define exactly what you guys mean by "maximize meaningful interaction" (or a link if I somehow missed it)? Maximize could mean as large a group as possible or as frequently as possible. Meaningful could mean necessary to complete a task (purely mechanical), or serves to inspire roleplay (purely social). A clear sense of what you want could go a long way toward helpful suggestions.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The question is "how do we make the presence of unique opponents that produce exceptional loot maximize human interaction"?I don't think the original suggestion is for unique opponents. Unique strongly implies named which would obviously break persistence. I think the suggestion is merely for rare elites. That's how I interpreted it anyway.
On the subject of interpretation, would it be possible to define exactly what you guys mean by "maximize meaningful interaction" (or a link if I somehow missed it)? Maximize could mean as large a group as possible or as frequently as possible. Meaningful could mean necessary to complete a task (purely mechanical), or serves to inspire roleplay (purely social). A clear sense of what you want could go a long way toward helpful suggestions.
Good question. I wondering if the assumption of the OP is actually compatible at all with Ryan's poser, rare creatures possibly, rare loot, not so sure?
How would you implement this idea in a way that maximized human interaction?
Make hunting for and finding the rare creatures something that benefits teamwork.
In the same way that randomly generated dungeons will exist, put out randomly generated rare monsters. But, in order to find them, a set of qualifications must be met. You have to track them for so long, you have to stumble upon certain randomly placed elements (their den, a site of a recent kill by the monster, that sort of thing), maybe you need to talk to a few people to gain research and insight into them.
In theory it's possible to do all of these things on your own, but successfully finding (and killing) the rare monster will be MUCH more doable if you have allies you are working alongside.
I'd like you all to try harder. The question is "how do we make the presence of unique opponents that produce exceptional loot maximize human interaction"?
1) The loot must benefit to everyone. It could be a settlement award or a long term buff or some rare ingredients, that everyone can get a share of.
2) everyone is required or at least usefull, to fell the beast.
scouts/diviner(arcane casters) need to track it
sages(anyone with high lore) need to find its weaknesses
some trap must be set
imo it requires lots of scripting. the "unique opponent" has to have specific actions that need to be completed, from different teams, at specific times and so on.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One of the ideas that I think is worth looking at further is the tangential boon that a rare creature would provide an area. After all, it should have a reason to be there in the first place, right? For example:
Eyethorn the Bugbear is the chief of a small goblin village that has spawned near a valued mining resource. In the center of the village is the carts of ore that have been produced by the village. This goblin village in turn spawns the little miscreants that go out and terrorize the local region and also prevents a camp from being created to capitalize on the resource. Some plucky adventurers decide to clear out the vermin and end up defeating Eyethorn. At the end of the encounter, they are given the option: kill the bugbear and collect his modest loot, or leave him be and accept a tithe of ore that the goblins are pulling from the resource. If the tithe is accepted, one of the containers in the village would be lootable by the players involved or their company(ies) and goblins spawned by the village will no longer view them as hostile. The caveat is the deal may be offered only once, so the next band of adventurers will only have the option of destroying the village, thereby being able to loot the tithe themselves along with Eyethorn's own loot.
Valerious the Silver Unicorn has taken up residence near a food resource, increasing the output of the farm established there, but he is quite aggressive and will attack those who approach the resource. He uses hit and run tactics, so if wounded too badly he will attempt to flee and recover (leaving a trail to be tracked). While he's around, the resource produces 10% more food, but he's also destructive and the farm takes damage every day he is there.
Rotlung, the Forest Scourge is a green dragon that claims a full hex as his own and demands tribute from any who pass through. Some player bandits have established a hideout in the area and use Rotlung as a protector, paying his tribute (gold, gems, items, trade goods, etc) whenever he appears. Some adventurers have discovered Rotlung's lair, full of tribute he's collected, and have decided to pilfer the horde. Unfortunately for them, if Rotlung encounters someone near his lair there's no room for bargaining.
Variations on the names and conditions would make things like these highly reusable and quite memorable for those involved, and would introduce much more variety than the 'Live or Die' absolutes you typically find in games. After all, these uniques are of above average intelligence and ability (at least for their kind), and they don't want to be viewed as nothing more than a pile of loot any more than a player does.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So a lot of responses to my question were of two varieties:
1: Ways to make it cool for one person or a small group to interact with PvE content.
2: Suggestions to make reselling the output of the encounter the point of interaction.
The first fails because it maximizes the interaction of the involved people with the content, not with each other or the wider social graph of other characters.
The second fails because if the economic advantage is meaningful farming the encounter will become routine and the flow of the components will become commodities.
Think about the idea that whatever the answer is it has to be repeatable hundreds, maybe thousands of times each day. It also has to be something that both individuals, small groups and large organizations might all compete for. And remember than in an MMO, nothing can really be mechanically unique or of extreme limited availability without creating artificial winners and losers, or restricting content to a tiny minority of the people who are financially supporting the game.
I'd like you all to try harder. The question is "how do we make the presence of unique opponents that produce exceptional loot maximize human interaction"?
Mr. Dancey,
I guess my first question to you would be.
What is your definition of human interaction?
Is it only one person interacting with one other, is it 1 person interacting with 100 others, is it 100 people interacting with 100 people?
My second question is,
What is your definition of exceptional loot?
Is it a Potion of Invisibility and a scroll of Magic Missle Lvl1/Caster Lvl1? Or is it a +5 Full Mythril Platemail, a +5 Large Steel Shield, and a Ring of 3 wishes?
If you could answer these two questions I think it will help everyone with a better understanding of what you are looking for.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Meaningful human interaction is what happens when one person needs the help of another person to do something interesting.
Exceptional loot is material that generates an exceptional profit when sold at the market price because obtaining it is hard, time consuming, complicated or some combination thereof.
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Goblin Squad Member
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"What I would do is this. Make the monsters spawn randomly around a much larger area. The white stag with it's valuable fur and antlers spawns in the Exalted Woods, but it could be ANYWHERE in the exalted woods. So there is no one area to find the white stag. You have to hunt it down."
Like the flying horse for the mage epic in EQ? Took perseverance and one gained a sense of accomplishment when it was done.
"IMO rare Super monsters. Things that literally take huge armies to take down. Dragons beasts etc... that roll over cities and if not dealt with quickly leave a wreckage of rubble in their path. Settlements should actually be encoraged to beg for outside settlements to help to deal with the threat quickly, rather than want horde the kill for themselves."
This brings to mind The Sleeper for me.
"When it all comes down to it, the one thing you want to avoid is a situation where two people want the same item, and are both equally entitled'"
Why? Rare items should be....rare, imo, whether its gear or materials for crafting things needed by players.
"Are you familiar with the sea towers from Darkfall?
I think its like every 12 days, they become vulnerable to attack. Everyone is aware they became vulnerable to attack, and whichever clan manages to take the sea tower first wins some massive rewards, as well as having a statue flying their clan's name in front of every major NPC city for all the new players to see.
The result is a MASSIVE sea battle between hundreds of players every 12 days in order to gain control of this sea battle.
That may be one way to do it. Have an invasions come from parts of Golarion outside the PFO map. Scouts could report that the invasion is coming so that NPC heralds can say "THE CHELISH ARE COMING, THEIR FORCES WILL COME THROUGH THE EXALTED WOODS IN FOURTEEN DAYS AND FIVE HOURS! THE PALADINS OF IOEMEDAE ARE OFFERING A SUBSTANTIAL REWARD TO WHOEVER TAKES THEIR GENERAL'S HEAD!"
That would create an interesting situation. You would need a strong force to fight through the invasion and take the head of the commander, but other forces might try to take all the glory for themselves. Either way you get some meaningful player interaction."
I like this idea. It sounds like the old style large raid events I used to love only not every night or two.
I would love to see gm events a few times a year that are truly difficult, game wide things. Something that emerges from the depths of the earth or the heavens and threatens the whole known world and requires massive amounts of people, resources, time and cooperation to conquer. Loot? I don't really care what you do about that but there was a time when a person could have a one of a kind item and be proud to have it. Its what /drool was all about. =) Maybe that could be one of the "themepark elements" to the sandbox.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Meaningful human interaction is what happens when one person needs the help of another person to do something interesting.
Exceptional loot is material that generates an exceptional profit when sold at the market price because obtaining it is hard, time consuming, complicated or some combination thereof.
The best way for the first is to have as many of the things that each player needs be acquired best by a different player. 'Things' in this sense specifically include information, property rights and other intangibles as well as coin and items.
In practical terms, this means that e.g. a rare creature should be located easier by one type of character, interacted with (by combat, social, or nature skills) by a different type of character, the spoils harvested by still different type of character, and those resources used by yet another. I'm not sure if it's good design or not.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Again I would like to point out that my initial post are not really compliant to Mr. Danceys request. His request are of a much bigger thing than my thoughts was.
I just wanted it be rare mobs that spawns randomly in a zone. They are slightly harder then the normal monsters but also holds loot that are a little bit better. For example if you find an axe (on a normal mob) that let's say you can use while exploring 2 hexagons then you will find axes off the normal mobs that are better then the one you have and thus replacing it. The difference from a loot from the rare monster may be that it might last 4 hexagons before you will find better loot to replace it with.
These kind of rare encounters can also sometimes require more then one person and thus the loot is also better.
The intention with these monsters (as per EQ) was more to give the players a sweet bonus while exploring the lands (IF they was lucky to find one, hence they are rare afterall).
So these rare encounters doesn't need to be that script intensive, just more like a regular mob, but a bit tougher and also a random rare spawn.
Then adding Ryan Danceys suggestion to the mix just improves the overall feeling. However as said I really would like to see both these kinds of encounters coexists together which would be a blast to encounter.
/Thrilled