make it 9 rings, one for each spell level
make it 9 rings, one for each spell level
That would make the problem worse.
Instead of only ever having one 24-hour personal spell, you would have two (by having, say, one 4th-level ring and one 5th-level ring). In addition, you could cast any other personal spells you wanted without affecting those in the rings (as long as they were of a different spell level to your rings).
Are:
Oh yeah, and then you would be using the rules for adding new abilities in order to stack rings on each other. WHEEEE! That would be all sorts of fun brokenness.
- Gauss
seems like lowering the cost of the item and making it for 1st and 2nd circle spells that you know would balance it out and make it a caster only useful object.
Circle...I smell Earthdawn...
Ed: And here I thought you were taking off. :D
- Gauss
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Oh, the hyperbole. A ring that breaks the game when used with... hold your breath... Timestop, a spell that 99% of all the players have never and will never cast anyways.
What remains upwards 10th level that can be exploited with this thing?
Well, actually not that much. A dedicated shaper could be transformed for all the time that mattered anyways and still buff himself further.
So, no, I don't see this thing as game breaking. OPed? Yes, it is very powerful and I do not see 2 Rings I would rather have as a shaper Wizard, but broken, not really.
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HEY EVERYONE!!! Paizo doesnt cater to people who like to play low magic games, and gives people options for making funny, op, or rediculous characters in home games. LETS MAKE THEM ERRATA IT!! i mean if i dont allow it in my game, no one should AM I RIGHT?!
the world hasnt ended, its not 3.5 all over again. its a fun, slightly superpowerful item ment for home games, and banned in PFS. you never have to acknowledge it if you dont like it. bann it, convince you gm to bann it, but lets be honest, if you're spending 50+k gold on one item, its a high level adventure anyway, so balance goes out the window.
make it 9 rings, one for each spell levelThat would make the problem worse.
Instead of only ever having one 24-hour personal spell, you would have two (by having, say, one 4th-level ring and one 5th-level ring). In addition, you could cast any other personal spells you wanted without affecting those in the rings (as long as they were of a different spell level to your rings).
Never claimed to be making things better!!!
Very neat magic item. I have the PDF, but I've been waiting until my Hard Copy came in to take a closer look at the stuff instead (staring at a screen for too long hurts my head).
That being said, I agree with other people's assessment that this is not a magic item that you just go out and give to a party for no reason. This is a magic item that has entire campaigns built around its use, belonging to the most notorious of villains. Personally, I would not let my party players craft this item but I also would not change it. As someone pointed out, there are other items that can cause havoc that have been in Pathfinder since the Core Rulebook.
This is the kind of item that is not fun. Its the kind of item that the GM must constantly negate / steal from you in order to make every other player have fun (especially with 24 hour time stop). I like the suggestion of, "Its cursed," however.
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On the one hand, I'd been frustrated that it's so hard to get long-duration shapechanging spells. The Ring would solve that.
On the other hand, it does ridiculous things even to lower-level spells. Deadly Juggernaut is pretty nasty. Geniekind(Djinni) makes Overland Flight totally obsolete.
I think the most insulting is Eaglesoul. It's a spell which provides a lot of buffs, but you can turn the remaining duration from hours/level to rounds/level to amp up the bonuses. And then you see The Ring...
(Actually, ISM has a lot of Personal range spells with silly interactions with The Ring. Not quite so many in the truly Core books.)
The big prize winner for silliness is probably Paragon Surge though. Open-ended into open-ended...
If you really wanted, you could have crafted this ring by 8th-level. Hardly a high level item.
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Just out of curiosity would you agree with my interpretation of the ring:
Whenevery you cast a spell with personal range, the ring absorbs it and extends the duration to 24 hours. If you take ring off, the spell stays with you at it's original duration - if the duration is already over, the spell ends.
If the rings magic is supressed (dispel magic) the spell inside stays active, but reverts to its original duration. Once the ring becomes active again, it can pick up the spell again if the spell is still active.
If you cast any personal range spell while a spell is extended by the ring, the new spell replaces the old spell.
Time Stop if changed to instantaneaus duration, no problem. If keept the way it is, you get 1d4+1 rounds of time stop, you can use these rounds in the next 24 hours.
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It is a really powerfull item and a bit to cheap for what it can do, but not yet gamebreaking.
make it 9 rings, one for each spell level
If only you could find a place to put them all. ... ...
How about you actually use it in play in a normal game and then see if it's broken before complaining? Right now, I only see theorycrafting based on the idea that a 4 man adventuring group will sacrifice most of their GP before high level play to nerf three of themselves just to have... 1 spell up 24 hrs. Big deal.
That theorycrafting wasn't about the whole party nerfing themselves, it referred to one single 8-level PC using almost his entire WBL on crafting this one item.
If every member of the party was in on it, they could conceivably get this ring at level 7, and each would have 2/3 of their WBL remaining.
But I agree that neither of those is particularly likely to occur. It's far more likely that someone would be crafting this ring at around level 10.
For the Time Stop abuse, note that it sets the duration to 24 hours, it does not set 'apparant time'.
Worthless for Time Stop, which does not have a measurable duration in real time. Since it doesn't rope in 'apparant time' to its effect, the Ring will have no effect on Time Stop.
But it would still boot off the prior personal spell.
Still underpriced. This is probably a 200k 'god item' for casters, since it ignores spell level and natural spell duration.
==Aelryinth
Design Manager
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Just out of curiosity would you agree with my interpretation of the ring:
Whenevery you cast a spell with personal range, the ring absorbs it and extends the duration to 24 hours. If you take ring off, the spell stays with you at it's original duration - if the duration is already over, the spell ends.
If the rings magic is supressed (dispel magic) the spell inside stays active, but reverts to its original duration. Once the ring becomes active again, it can pick up the spell again if the spell is still active.If you cast any personal range spell while a spell is extended by the ring, the new spell replaces the old spell.
Time Stop if changed to instantaneaus duration, no problem. If keept the way it is, you get 1d4+1 rounds of time stop, you can use these rounds in the next 24 hours.
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It is a really powerfull item and a bit to cheap for what it can do, but not yet gamebreaking.
See, I was thinking this too. It's the weird set-up of Time Stop's duration that makes this ridiculous. If the casting time were instantaneous with the effect of gaining 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time, it wouldn't be an issue. Time Stop has a singularly unusual duration entry.
As noted by many other posters, I don't think this ring is too gamebreaking for anything other than games where one or more of the characters has invested into the Forge Ring feat, and even then it's debatable until higher levels. Remember, if you're actually following Magic Item Availability, the odds of even a major Metropolis having the item are incredibly small. And if the PC's beat the guy wearing this ring to obtain it, they've probably earned it.
I'd actually love a lesser version of this that only worked with the Animal form spells. Or even lesser that only worked for the animal form spells for wolf and raven. Would need it relatively early though to really be as much fun as it seems.
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How about you actually use it in play in a normal game and then see if it's broken before complaining? Right now, I only see theorycrafting based on the idea that a 4 man adventuring group will sacrifice most of their GP before high level play to nerf three of themselves just to have... 1 spell up 24 hrs. Big deal.
Agreed and seconded.
I would not mind threads that are created for the sole purpose of theorycrafting. It's that more often than not it's worst case theorycrafting. While the item is a little overpowered imo. The assumption that it can ruin the game is based on to many "ifs". If the party puts aside enough gold. Yet to meet in my experience a party willing to save 56K for one item for one clas. If a character that can use the item actullay wants to use the item. At 56K I rather buy more less powered items than once ring that has a spell that can be dispelled. If the DM allows it. I can see some DMs not allowing it all. If a player abuses the item. Not every player is going to want or abuse the ability of the ring.
As I said too many "ifs" with no proof. The worst case scenario theorycrafting imo needs to stop. If Paizo nerfs something too much fans complain. If they allow something that gives more a reward than usually the fanbase complains. It's like they can't win. I have done my share of complaining. Prone Shooter and Cliotered Cleric I'm looking at you. Except I'm not spending all my free time theorycrafting doomsday scenarios and make a fuss about every new thing that Paizo introduces.
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And as is even more often the case, people will rush to defend things that are overpowered so long as The Infallible First Party has released it.
Freelancers make mistakes. They might not consider something where if used, what they're writing is overpowerd. It's normal. They're only human (although I hear Jim Groves is part cyborg now). No one is perfect.
If you really wanted, you could have crafted this ring by 8th-level. Hardly a high level item.
Not if your GM doesn't want you to. Games like Pathfinder Society outright ban Item Creation Feats and there's an old saying; "Players are a dime a dozen but a GM is a diamond in the rough."
You don't REALLY want to annoy your GM by fighting with him over crafting an item that you admit is OP, do you? ;-P
The morale of the story is that while the treasure is shiny, the GM decides what the players find; even when the players can to craft their own treasure. A good player will respect their GM's beliefs even if they don't necessarily agree with them.
The whole "Time stop would just give 1d4+1 rounds of action taking 24 hours" line of argument seems like a pretty strained reading of the rules. The flavor of speeding yourself up is one thing (not that that fits with the above reading either, since why on earth flavorwise would a spell that super-speeds the caster cause him to take 24 hours to take thirty seconds worth of actions?) but it's pretty clear that mechanically you treat the duration as 1d4+1 rounds.
And it's probably simpler to just ban a clearly overpowered item than it is to try to force square words into a round hole...
simpler to just ban a clearly overpowered item than it is to try to force square words into a round hole...
We thought the square words might come round. ;)
Wish people would quit referring to range: touch spells in this thread.
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Range: touch spells.
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This ring would sure make my shield spell happy.
Range: touch spells.
They're great spells.
Haven't read the whole thread to see if this has been brought up, but paragon surge could be fun with this; especially on a druid who can share spells with their animal companion.
Many of those referred to say "personal or touch."
This ring would also fit under the 24 hour binding rule I use in my campaigns that require items 24 hours to bind to a new wearer, and they have to rebind if they are removed.
I guess that would seriously increase the value of the Endurance feat, having to wear your armor overnight for its magic to work. Sounds kinda like an MMO, really, with everyone constantly wearing full armor and carrying their weapons in hand regardless of how appropriate to the situation that may be.
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I would definitely give this ring to a BBEG. Oh, the possibilities. A human who is constantly under the effects of form of the dragon III, therefore making the PCs believe that he is actually "just" a Huge dragon when in fact he's a 20th level wizard, or better yet, a guy who uses undead anatomy IV to pretend he's a lich, and has a castle built a thousand miles away just to guard his 'phylatcery', which the PCs would then go and raid while he's off committing evil somewhere.
Best part is, as soon as they destroy it and nothing happens, they'll just immediately assume (out of character) that the one they just destroyed is a fake and there's a 'real one' out there somewhere else, all the while never once going to engage their foe directly.
Ah...playing off a player's paranoia through misleading. An amusing way to challenge the party.
Haven't read the whole thread to see if this has been brought up, but paragon surge could be fun with this; especially on a druid who can share spells with their animal companion.
Interesting note: the item has this reads "Whenever the wearer of this ring casts a spell with a range of personal".
So you could in fact use the ring to maintain a spell on your animal companion for a 24 hour period, but you can't then do the same for yourself. It's either you or your animal companion.
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Haven't read the whole thread to see if this has been brought up, but paragon surge could be fun with this; especially on a druid who can share spells with their animal companion.Interesting note: the item has this reads "Whenever the wearer of this ring casts a spell with a range of personal".
So you could in fact use the ring to maintain a spell on your animal companion for a 24 hour period, but you can't then do the same for yourself. It's either you or your animal companion.
WHAT'S THAT!?! SORRY CAN'T HEAR YOU OVER THE SOUND OF MY HUGE DRAGON FAMILIAR BURNINATING THE COUNTRYSIDE!
Burnination for the win.
==Aelryinth
WHAT'S THAT!?! SORRY CAN'T HEAR YOU OVER THE SOUND OF MY HUGE DRAGON FAMILIAR BURNINATING THE COUNTRYSIDE!Haven't read the whole thread to see if this has been brought up, but paragon surge could be fun with this; especially on a druid who can share spells with their animal companion.Interesting note: the item has this reads "Whenever the wearer of this ring casts a spell with a range of personal".
So you could in fact use the ring to maintain a spell on your animal companion for a 24 hour period, but you can't then do the same for yourself. It's either you or your animal companion.
You can do something similar with a scroll of Polymorph any object. Raven becomes a giant eagle or Pseudogragon becomes a dragon. just saying.
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You can do something similar with a scroll of Polymorph any object. Raven becomes a giant eagle or Pseudogragon becomes a dragon. just saying.WHAT'S THAT!?! SORRY CAN'T HEAR YOU OVER THE SOUND OF MY HUGE DRAGON FAMILIAR BURNINATING THE COUNTRYSIDE!Haven't read the whole thread to see if this has been brought up, but paragon surge could be fun with this; especially on a druid who can share spells with their animal companion.Interesting note: the item has this reads "Whenever the wearer of this ring casts a spell with a range of personal".
So you could in fact use the ring to maintain a spell on your animal companion for a 24 hour period, but you can't then do the same for yourself. It's either you or your animal companion.
polymorph any object functions as form of the dragon I. The ring could use form of the dragon III or shapechange which also functions as form of the dragon III along with the other top level polymorph spells and the familiar could be an eagle one round, a dragon the next, an elf the next, so on and so forth.
polymorph any object functions as form of the dragon I. The ring could use form of the dragon III or shapechange which also functions as form of the dragon III along with the other top level polymorph spells and the familiar could be an eagle one round, a dragon the next, an elf the next, so on and so forth.You can do something similar with a scroll of Polymorph any object. Raven becomes a giant eagle or Pseudogragon becomes a dragon. just saying.WHAT'S THAT!?! SORRY CAN'T HEAR YOU OVER THE SOUND OF MY HUGE DRAGON FAMILIAR BURNINATING THE COUNTRYSIDE!Haven't read the whole thread to see if this has been brought up, but paragon surge could be fun with this; especially on a druid who can share spells with their animal companion.Interesting note: the item has this reads "Whenever the wearer of this ring casts a spell with a range of personal".
So you could in fact use the ring to maintain a spell on your animal companion for a 24 hour period, but you can't then do the same for yourself. It's either you or your animal companion.
True. I was just saying getting some version of a dragon as a familiar is cheaper and easier than having this ring and access to shapechange daily. You could do it at a lot earlier level.
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No argument on the earlier and cheaper. I just wanted to point out that the cost of the ring is justified compared to the scroll as it allows stronger and more versatile options. I would honestly be willing to pay more for the ring, but my casters don't generally focus on self only buffs beyond mage armor.
but my casters don't generally focus on self only buffs beyond mage armor.
And why do they focus on mage armor? Because it lasts all day :)
No argument on the earlier and cheaper. I just wanted to point out that the cost of the ring is justified compared to the scroll as it allows stronger and more versatile options. I would honestly be willing to pay more for the ring, but my casters don't generally focus on self only buffs beyond mage armor.
Oh the ring is A LOT better. No question. It also requires a really high level to afford and maintain.
Sorry for being dense, but if they just limited the level of the spell tht could be used wouldn't that nerf this item down to a reasonable level?There are 1st level spells than can still be pretty strong if lasting for 24h.
While I agree (for example, Shield is an excellent spell), by the point you can get the ring I don't think it'll be THAT more powerful than simply getting a few wands of the spell.
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While I agree (for example, Shield is an excellent spell), by the point you can get the ring I don't think it'll be THAT more powerful than simply getting a few wands of the spell.Sorry for being dense, but if they just limited the level of the spell tht could be used wouldn't that nerf this item down to a reasonable level?There are 1st level spells than can still be pretty strong if lasting for 24h.
Two words, Action Economy. If the spell lasts all day it does not need to be cast in combat which frees up a standard or swift action (at the level you'd have this ring your swift actions will be used nearly every round most combats).
Haven't read the whole thread to see if this has been brought up, but paragon surge could be fun with this; especially on a druid who can share spells with their animal companion.Interesting note: the item has this reads "Whenever the wearer of this ring casts a spell with a range of personal".
So you could in fact use the ring to maintain a spell on your animal companion for a 24 hour period, but you can't then do the same for yourself. It's either you or your animal companion.
Doesn't that mean you could cast like 15 personal spells on your companion and they'd all have 24 hour duration?
No.
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Two words, Action Economy. If the spell lasts all day it does not need to be cast in combat which frees up a standard or swift action (at the level you'd have this ring your swift actions will be used nearly every round most combats).There are 1st level spells than can still be pretty strong if lasting for 24h.While I agree (for example, Shield is an excellent spell), by the point you can get the ring I don't think it'll be THAT more powerful than simply getting a few wands of the spell.
Exactly what Nipin said. Imagine True Strike, sure, it's dispelled on the 1st hit, but it also basically garantees you'll land that first hit. At higher levels, that 1st attack may very well be the deciding factor between victory and defeat. Why would a Magus not cast true strike after every combat? That +20 for his next attack and he gets to ignore concealment. Hey, it's better than Furious Focus!
And that is only a 1st level spell. But there is more!
1st: Even if they limit the max. spell level the ring can hold, it's unlikely to be level 1. I'd guess 3 or 4. If it happened.
2nd: With each new book released, the chances of having a spell that can be abused through this ring increases significantly.
This ring, even if not broken as it's now, is a keg of gunpoweder floating on a lake of nitroglycerin. (Okay, that may be a little of an exaggeration, but I like the way it sounds... heh)
It's one spell away from being very, very broken. If it's not already.
Spell duration and action economy play a big role in balancing spells. Discard them with a "extend whatever spell's duration to 24h anytime you want" and we can very realistically expect thing to go downhill from there.
tl;dr. If this ring is not OP, it'll be. Unless it's errataed/nerfed to death.