Infinite time stop! Infinite shapechange! Infinite true strike! Infinite blink! Infinite everything!


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Lantern Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Well, you know the Moonscar module takes place on the moon . . . just pull the Light Lance stunt from there . . .


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Stockvillain wrote:

Yes sir, we got trouble! Right here in River City! That starts with "T," and that rhymes with "P," and that stands for Polymorph subschool

What? You know you all love showtunes!

Anywho, combine with the Multimorph wizard discovery, and *bam* Shapechange Junior! If we're figuring on the earliest means for a wizard to nab this ring at 12th level, then you've got 6th level spells off the bat. That's all of the Beast Shape spells, Alter Self, Elemental Body I-III, Form of the Dragon I, Giant Form I, Plant Shape I & II, both of the Vermin Shape spells, the Monstrous Physique line, Undead Anatomy I-III, and Geniekind to name a few.

Oh my, yes. . .

If it was limited to personal polymorph spells, you know, as something to close the power gap between transmuters and summoners, than it might be about right for the price.

Right now though, even I think it's too much.

I'm curious to know: Did any of you expect me to be the first to find the one thing that breaks Pathfinder? :P


Cheapy wrote:

I'd wager that every single person who knew who RD was and saw the thread title and then who the poster was immediately thought "Oh man, what crazy rules exploit did RavingDork find this time. There's no way that would be in the game."

And then we all got here and found out that it wasn't an exploit. It was 99% the rules as written and intended.

YEP your standard RD thread on a item that is not even really out yet and all the possible abuses therein. lol


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Lobolusk wrote:
Cheapy wrote:

I'd wager that every single person who knew who RD was and saw the thread title and then who the poster was immediately thought "Oh man, what crazy rules exploit did RavingDork find this time. There's no way that would be in the game."

And then we all got here and found out that it wasn't an exploit. It was 99% the rules as written and intended.

YEP your standard RD thread on a item that is not even really out yet and all the possible abuses therein. lol

Mind you, I didn't come up with ALL the abuses herein.

For example, the thought never occurred to me that I could use this to get infinite spells, or to rob the entire would blind. Others pointed that out. I only planted the seed. It's up to you guys to make it grow. ;D

Hopefully, all the attention it gets will prompt the developers to take notice and result in some errata.

Silver Crusade

I don't think this is quite as bad with Time Stop as some people are making it out to be.

If you read the spell, time is in fact NOT stopped. You're just moving really fast and it alters your perception of time.

So for example, you cannot just slap on a ring of time stop and get infinite spells. You still have to wait 24 hours of REAL time to get your spells back. In which case you will basically be stuck in Time-Stop mode for an ETERNITY while you wait for the time to pass.

Don't get me wrong though, Still overpowered, will make you the greatest thief in all existence, but I must say, at the point where you can cast 9th level spells, does it matter that much?

Or put another way

Is there anything about the game that isn't already trivialized by 9th level spells that adding in infinite time stop would make it appreciably more trivial?


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Time to make THE CLOCK KING. :D


Hmm. 24 hours per 6 seconds, unlimited larceny, infinite crafting.

The druid used to be the class of mass destruction with wall of stone and control weather to create, fill, and destroy reservoirs where the flooding would destroy cities.

A 17th level wizard can now have an arbitrarily large number of 8th level pearls of power and drop up to 14400 elemental spell modified delayed blast fireballs every second. Fortunately it's too high level for spell perfection to fit quicken or it would be double that. Eh, what am I saying, you can craft an arbitrarily large number of greater quicken metamagic rods too.


In all 'seriousness' though, I'd probably use Greater Arcane Sight or some other utility spell with the ring.


Yar.

Elamdri wrote:
Is there anything about the game that isn't already trivialized by 9th level spells that adding in infinite time stop would make it appreciably more trivial?

As someone who has played in and GMed for high level games: yes, there is plenty that is not trivialized by 9th level spells. Made easier? Yes. But trivialized? No. However, some of the possibilities opened up by this ring? Ridiculous. But this thread is not about that (situations made trivial by 9th levels spells or not), so I am not going to post examples of my experiences/fun up for others to critique. But casting a 9th level spell is not the equivalent of saying "I win" and everyone stops playing.

And I'd like the game to stay that way. Thus, I truly hope that this item gets fixed.

~P


This would be pretty neat.

Quote:

Deflection

School abjuration [force]; Level sorcerer/wizard 7
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a piece of rubber dipped in glue)
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 round/level
You surround yourself in a whirling barrier of force that sends any attack that misses you hurling back toward its source. This applies to any melee or ranged attack directed against you so long as it uses an attack roll to determine whether or not it strikes you. If an attack misses you, the attacker must make a second attack roll against its own Armor Class, using all of the applicable modifiers of the original attack and if it hits, the attacker takes the attack's damage and suffers all the other consequences of getting struck with that attack. You cannot deflect attacks that miss you for any reason besides a failed attack roll (such as concealment). Similarly, you cannot deflect attacks that actually do strike you but simply fail to do any harm.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA... This is one of those cases you gotta laugh to keep from crying...

Really, this is too much...

I mean, I never expected all items in UE to be perfectly balanced, but this? This is ridiculous.

Not the kind of mistake I expected from Paizo. Maybe some minor cheese that needs some creative spell/feat/item combination or generous reading of some rule, but not this.

This is something so easily exploitable, I can't help but wonder how noone noticed it. Even a great company like Paizo is bound to make a few mistakes every now and then.

I'll just make sure none of my players ever gets one of these rings.


Yar.

The best way (I think, unless we get lucky) to get the attention of the staff regarding our concerns with this item is to have a post with a good question about it, and FAQ the heck out of it.

Such as:

Ultimate Equipment: Ring of Continuation.

The Ring of Continuation says that any spell cast with a target of personal has it's duration increased to 24 hours. This raises a number of questions:

1 - Isn't this way too powerful for it's cost? Shouldn't there be a spell level limit, or some additional text with clauses to prevent this item from completely overpowering high level personal spells?

2 - How does this interact with Time Stop?

etc.

~P


well, seems like it's the same powerbloat as in 3.5 per book, but they packed it all into one item any sane GM would ban, saves us much trouble, see?

But I'm interested too in knowing how this one got through proof reading or whatever. Not because someone owes me an excuse, but because such an item baffles me.

P.s. Yes, after reading the title I thought "at least insane people are easier to notice nowadays", after noticing that it was RavingDork my first thought was "oh no, what's it now?".


So, dotting, 'cause this is relevant to my interests... er, I mean, I too totally hope this gets Errata'd, of course!
...
Yeah!
(Good thinking, there, Tac. No one suspects you now!)


Tacticslion wrote:

So, dotting, 'cause this is relevant to my interests... er, I mean, I too totally hope this gets Errata'd, of course!

...
Yeah!
(Good thinking, there, Tac. No one suspects you now!)

(Psst. They're on to you. They're all on to you. . . and you're Precioussss.)


NOT MY PRECIOUSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Hrm, this makes me kinda concerned that we are experiencing a significant amount of power creep with this book. :-/


Flagged as FAQ. I feel like they forgot some kind of stipulation... either way, wow this item!


The more I hear of them, the more I'm convinced that I did the right thing by skipping on Ultimate Combat and Ultimate Magic.


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Ravingdork wrote:
Heck, any of the personal polymorph spells are good.

Be certain you pick the right shape to change into: "When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body."

So no taking off the ring this time; unless you can cast a new personal spell in your new form, you're stuck.

edit: Actually, you are stuck, as the ring has become inaccessible!

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Every book needs it's own Prone Shooter.


Astral Wanderer wrote:
The more I hear of them, the more I'm convinced that I did the right thing by skipping on Ultimate Combat and Ultimate Magic.

What do Ultimate Combat and Ultimate Magic have to do with the overpowered/confusing shenanigans of some items in Ultimate Equipment?


Ah, the return of 24 hour time stops. Now even easier than before!

In 3.5, you needed to be a cleric with a domain like Trickery, Divine Metamagic and Persistent Spell.

Seems the day long breaks for the high level caster are the intention, not the oversight.


Johnico wrote:
Astral Wanderer wrote:
The more I hear of them, the more I'm convinced that I did the right thing by skipping on Ultimate Combat and Ultimate Magic.
What do Ultimate Combat and Ultimate Magic have to do with the overpowered/confusing shenanigans of some items in Ultimate Equipment?

The fact that for some reason I had read Ultimate Combat in the opening post.


Funny, I did think of some of the less major casters with personal spells like Righteous Might , Deadly Juggernaut, Terrain Bond.. then, Wreath of Blades.. You can just keep going. It's like a list that never ends. I need to stop myself....


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magnuskn wrote:
Hrm, this makes me kinda concerned that we are experiencing a significant amount of power creep with this book. :-/

I think it is just a trick by paizo to have the munchkins buy the book en masse before they hit it with errata :)


"Spells that usually only affect one specific action (such as making a particular attack)"

Well true strike is out.


Cheapy wrote:

I'd wager that every single person who knew who RD was and saw the thread title and then who the poster was immediately thought "Oh man, what crazy rules exploit did RavingDork find this time. There's no way that would be in the game."

And then we all got here and found out that it wasn't an exploit. It was 99% the rules as written and intended.

LOL, Guilty as charged.

I was ready to come in and shut his post down. I did not even have to open the rulebook to know he was spot on this time. Now I am wondering how that one got past everyone.

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Another notch against the "Ultimate" line for me... I'm just glad the races guide became an "Advanced" instead, both of which I have enjoyed while despairing at UM and UC...

Persistent Metamagic was known to be one of the most broken things in 3.5, if not THE most imho. Now its brought back but for any spell level... Not impressed.


Alexander Kilcoyne wrote:

Another notch against the "Ultimate" line for me... I'm just glad the races guide became an "Advanced" instead, both of which I have enjoyed while despairing at UM and UC...

Persistent Metamagic was known to be one of the most broken things in 3.5, if not THE most imho. Now its brought back but for any spell level... Not impressed.

You are correct, and I hope this is fixed somehow!


would Grace spell benefit from this?

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/channel-vigor this is nice as well


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Gorbacz wrote:
Every book needs it's own Prone Shooter.

Well, in this case it's like prone shooter that's useful and shoots eye lazorz of doom and death and destruction and anti-puppies.

Other than that, yea, pretty close to prone shooter.


thenovalord wrote:

would Grace spell benefit from this?

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/channel-vigor this is nice as well

The spell you linked "Vigor" would work

we now have 24 hour haste


Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

My group Discussed this very thing and we can to the conclusion that only spells that duration is increased by caster level (Rounds,hours, ECT per level)can only be used with this ring that should keep the intended power of the ring without it being to game breaking

Our reasoning is that this ring is meant to prolong spells that Could have the potential to gaining 24/hr duration IF the caster was powerful enough


Typhina Blightsworn wrote:

My group Discussed this very thing and we can to the conclusion that only spells that duration is increased by caster level (Rounds,hours, ECT per level)can only be used with this ring that should keep the intended power of the ring without it being to game breaking

Our reasoning is that this ring is meant to prolong spells that Could have the potential to gaining 24/hr duration IF the caster was powerful enough

We still have 24 hour haste via the valor spell.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Cheapy wrote:

I'm waiting to hear people explain why it's a good idea to allow it unmodified :D

The only reason I can think of is because it's level 15-16+, and screw balance. A wizard with arcane bond (ring) could probably grab it around level 13. Maybe even 12.

I don't have a problem with it because I have the ultimate GM brake on crafting. I require my players to research or obtain a formula for each item they want to make.

And it does take up a ring slot. You take off the ring.. the effect goes away.

And certain spells that people think are personal, aren't. Time Stop is one of them.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8

Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:


We still have 24 hour haste via the valor spell.

So.. like a +1 shortsword of speed?


LazarX wrote:
And certain spells that people think are personal, aren't. Time Stop is one of them.

It seems as if you're suggesting time stop isn't personal, but the PRD for time stop quite clearly says "Range personal".


This is a bit upsetting.

A wide-ranging effect like this should never have been published. Does anyone remember how broken polymorph was in 3.5 for effectively this reason? Paizo fixed that by making a series of spells (Form of the Dragon, Beast Shape X, etc). I don't know if those are well-balanced yet (only been wildshaping my druid for one or two sessions) but if those effects turned out to be unbalanced, at least it's easy to house rule.

And then there's this. Paizo unlearned lessons, and I wish I knew why.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ravingdork wrote:

Ultimate Equipment gives use the Ring of Continuation, a magical ring worth 56,000gp that allows you to cast a personal range spell, and extend it's duration to 24 hours.

There are no spell level limits, daily uses, or anything. If the spell would be dispelled prematurely (such as making an attack with true strike or via dispel magic), it is dispelled as per normal. If you cast another personal range spell into the ring, the previous one ends (provided it's normal duration would have run its course).

Here's where you have it wrong. If you cast another personal spell that's eligible for the ring,at all. the one in the ring ends. If you take off the ring, the effect ends.

Key thing to note. "Whenever the wearer of this ring casts a personal spell....." You can't actively choose whether an eligible spell you cast goes into the ring or not. If a personal spell you cast can be extended by the ring it will overwrite whatever the ring is sustaining at the time.

This ring would also fit under the 24 hour binding rule I use in my campaigns that require items 24 hours to bind to a new wearer, and they have to rebind if they are removed.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Are wrote:
LazarX wrote:
And certain spells that people think are personal, aren't. Time Stop is one of them.

It seems as if you're suggesting time stop isn't personal, but the PRD for time stop quite clearly says "Range personal".

That one I'll have to check but see my later comments above. Besides when PC's get to the level that they're actually casting that spell, you're playing a different game than the one you were playing from 1-12.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Likely because the CRB was written by one guy, and UE is a patchwork from several designers.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Gorbacz wrote:
Likely because the CRB was written by one guy, and UE is a patchwork from several designers.

The CRB drew from the SRD which was a set of rules drawn up by committee.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
LazarX wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
Likely because the CRB was written by one guy, and UE is a patchwork from several designers.
The CRB drew from the SRD which was a set of rules drawn up by committee.

That's irrelavant. With the CRB, there was one guy working on the text, with some input from 3 other guys (SKR, Monte, James).

With UE, there were 3 guys working on the text that's put together from 20+ contributors.

Take a guess which one is easier to have something like that ring slip thru.


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I don't have a problem with this item. It's gone through the Paizo development process, and is therefore clearly balanced and written in such a way as to be consistent with the general Paizo understanding of what the rules mean and how they should be applied. Unlike your typical 3rd party product that shows no understanding of the game mechanics, fails to follow the usual item syntax, and is horrifically overpowered.

I give this item my seal of approval and suggest that it should show up in every game.

;)

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32

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Several of the suggestions and combinations presented here straddle the line of "broken," however channel vigor is a 3.5-era spell designed for use with Dungeons & Dragons, and predates the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game. I don't think it's fair to consider D&D 3.5 material in tandem with the ring.

As for time stop, using time stop and the ring in tandem won't enable you to rest, because time stop doesn't actually stop or even slow the passage of time - it simply makes you move quickly, and changes your perceptions regarding the passage of time. If the duration of time stop were changed to "24 hours," then the spell would cause you to take 24 apparent hours to experience 1 actual round. There are ten rounds in a minute, and a hundred rounds in an hour. In order to rest for 8 actual hours (plus 1 hour for preparing spells), you'd have to rest for nine 900 days of apparent time.

A side note: If I were running a game wherein a PC used the ring in this way, these guys would be after you in droves, and so would these guys. And if I were your GM, I'd hit you with this little gem from the GameMaster's Guide's "insanity rules," as well:

The GameMaster's Guide wrote:
At your option, a creature can run the risk of going insane under extremely unusual situations, even when his mental ability scores are unharmed.

Obviously, there are some issues with the ring, but the "infinite spells, resting mid-combat" tactic doesn't work as cleanly as some seem to fear that it does.

Daron Woodson
Abandoned Arts


Caedwyr wrote:

I don't have a problem with this item. It's gone through the Paizo development process, and is therefore clearly balanced and written in such a way as to be consistent with the general Paizo understanding of what the rules mean and how they should be applied. Unlike your typical 3rd party product that shows no understanding of the game mechanics, fails to follow the usual item syntax, and is horrifically overpowered.

I give this item my seal of approval and suggest that it should show up in every game.

;)

Preferably in the hands of the enemy, a bugbear wizard named Karlhp (the p is silent), and can only be used by by bugbear wizards named Karlhp (the p is silent).

Dark Archive

Abandoned Arts wrote:


As for time stop, using time stop and the ring in tandem won't enable you to rest, because time stop doesn't actually stop or even slow the passage of time - it simply makes you move quickly, and changes your perceptions regarding the passage of time. If the duration of time stop were changed to "24 hours," then the spell would cause you to take 24 apparent hours to experience 1 actual round. There are ten rounds in a minute, and a hundred rounds in an hour. In order to rest for 8 actual hours (plus 1 hour for preparing spells), you'd have to rest for nine 900 days of apparent time.

A side note: If I were running a game wherein a PC used the ring in this way, these guys would be after you in droves, and so would these guys. And if I were your GM, I'd hit you with this little gem from the GameMaster's Guide's "insanity rules," as well:

The GameMaster's Guide wrote:
At your option, a creature can run the risk of going insane under extremely unusual situations, even when his mental ability scores are unharmed.

Daron Woodson

Abandoned Arts

This.

A GM isn't helpless against this tactic. Powerful outsiders governing time/space, the logic behind what Time Stop is, the fact that someone/something powerful will notice after the first time this trick is used....it goes on and on. PCs do not exist in a vacuum and are not automatons capable of going on and on forever.


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Oberoni Fallacy (noun): The fallacy that the existence of a rule stating that, ‘the rules can be changed,’ can be used to excuse design flaws in the actual rules.


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bdk86 wrote:
A GM isn't helpless against this tactic. Powerful outsiders governing time/space, the logic behind what Time Stop is, the fact that someone/something powerful will notice after the first time this trick is used....it goes on and on. PCs do not exist in a vacuum and are not automatons capable of going on and on forever.

Well, if you have to rely on GM fiat, that's a pretty good sign that something is very wrong with the item.

And technically, GMs are not helpless against any tactic, they can always simply say "No."

GM: This doesn't work.
Player: Why not? It's RAW.
GM: Because SCREW YOU, that's why.

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