....now if only archers could get Dex to dmg....
And more specialty arrows (alashing, better grappling hook, true flame arrow (not flame steel material)...
And more specialty arrows (alashing
Haha, my imagination isn't working good enough right now, could you describe this arrow for me?
Its supposed to be a lashing as in its a arrow with a cat o' ninetails on it.
make melee better, not archers weaker?Quit demanding a completely unachievable and almost certainly unwise course of catering to the whining of certain stat-obsessed players that every class be equal to every other class or it's "OMG totally unfair WTF!?!"
I think it's reasonable to balance the game. Calm down man.
Except most people aren't whining about balance. They just want to be better than the guy sitting across from them.
EDIT: Nevertheless, I too support calm, cool attitudes in my threads.
How many hit points does a bow have?
depends on what its made of and how magical it is.
All right, I suppose this is a good time to share my experiences with archers in Pathfinder. Warning, this is lengthy
But first, to the original point in this thread: I don't have Ultimate Equipment, but if that's all Archers really got, just a quality of life buff (that most DMs in my experiences house rule away), then I'm not too concerned. I mean, aren't there any good melee weapon properties out there? It seems to me that they usually get more variety with weapon choices. This hardly seems like a call for concern: if archers are truly a problem (which I'll express my opinion on in a bit) it's definitely not because of this. All weapon styles should get a buff when new hardcovers come out; I don't see a problem with this improving archery.
Anyway, my thoughts on archery in general...
So here's an example in one of my games. We have have a barbarian who focuses on a falchion, and an archery based fighter. The fighter is generally more secure against melee based enemies, and is more reliable with getting full attacks (which is noticeably diminished when the barbarian gets pounce at 10th level). Each hit from the barbarian is more severe: he gets his main attribute x1.5 to his damage, more favorable returns on power attack, and better critical range (18-20 is far better than x3, especially when you add critical feats). The fighter, on the other hand, can let out a full attack almost every round, and gets a lot of attacks which helps when there are numerous enemies. He can deny a lot of enemies with the Snap Shot line of feats, and has great AC combined with high initiative, letting him get into place right away.
All of that ends up about even, but that's against completely nondescript enemies in a boring environment. Over the time we played, I noticed both the archer and barbarian experienced a number of problems.
Archer:
He takes a -2 from Rapid Shot, a variable penalty from Deadly Aim. This is almost always worth the penalty, but then when you combine it with the -4 from allies providing cover (actually pretty hard to avoid, especially in dungeon rooms), he starts missing a lot more frequently than the barbarian. Yes, there's a feat that can ameliorate this, but keep in mind that doesn't come into play until level 11, and that's assuming the fighter can take it right away (there are A LOT of archery feats to choose from... I love it!)
Anything that grants concealment from a range becomes problematic. This includes darkness outside of torchlight and fog spells, and helps melee characters out more where the concealment penalty is reduced when adjacent (and since two handed fighting isn't as feat intensive, they can more easily invest a feat into blind fight).
Wind wall, and similar spells. Completely shuts down an archer, unless there's an easy way around it (and for Fickle Winds or Winds of Vengeance, you're screwed, buddy). People usually bring up that these can be dispelled, but keep in mind that requires you to use up one of your wizard's actions, and isn't guaranteed to work. I tried not to use this too much, of course.
Enemies with reach or step-up. If one of these enemies can get close to the archer, he's forced to either eat up an attack, or wait for his allies to take care of the baddy. Now, there is a feat that can take care of this, but not every archer has access to it. Furthermore, with the feat-intensive nature of archery, it's very possible you won't have access to this for a while... and not every class good at archery (inquisitor for example) can get ahold of this).
There are also some other things, like sunder maneuvers and the prone condition, which particularly hamper archers, but they don't come up often in my games.
What screws over the two handed fighter:
Flying enemies and enemies difficult to reach. This is particularly problematic, in the same way that wind spells screw over the archer. However, flight spells, unlike dispel magic, are always a success (excepting superstitious barbarians, but that's a specific case). Again, unless the barbarian is pre buffed with it, or has the proper boots, this uses up one of the wizard's very important abilities. Over all, I feel this is a more common issue than wind spells, but easier to overcome.
Enemies with reach. This threatens the two handed fighter in a different way from the archer in that it hurts the two handed fighter more when he charges toward the enemy, and not so much the other way around. A few classes have ways to deal with this (such as the Paladin's Grace spell), but it isn't easy. Combine that with the tendency for them to have poor AC/CMD and they can really struggle getting close to a baddie.
***
Overall, the two in that game were pretty much equal in their combat utility. I have a few more experiences with archers comparing equally to their melee counterparts, but considering how long it took me to explain the previous scenario, perhaps those are for a different time. I feel in each case, the players were on approximate equal levels of optimization, and had access to similar levels of gear. I think a lot of the archer hype comes from GMs not realizing some of the ways of countering them, forgetting some important rules (-4 for ally cover is a huge one), or just favoring different encounter types that would give an archer a natural advantage. Maybe they're right for the majority of games - I could just be an atypical DM! But in my experiences, both fighting styles have definitive strengths and weakness with no superior option presenting itself.
Now just don't get me started on TWF or Sword and Board ;)
Standard bow would have a hardness and hp of 5 each. +2 hardness and +10hp for each +1 of enhancement bonus.
Darkwood the only spec mat I can look up at the moment wouldn't affect those numbers.
Except most people aren't whining about balance. They just want to be better than the guy sitting across from them.OR they don't want to be worse. That's also a possibility. And a less condescending one.
I think it's reasonable to balance the game. Calm down man.Someone failed their Sense Motive check for sarcasm.
I just assume everyone is serious and see how many people get mad at me. It's easier and funnier that way.
Except most people aren't whining about balance. They just want to be better than the guy sitting across from them.OR they don't want to be worse. That's also a possibility. And a less condescending one.
Either way this is still about damage balance for the sole purpose of catering to the desires of players who can't abide the thought that their character can't "keep up" with the other dudes. My experience has been that the people who complain the loudest about "unbalanced builds" are the ones who do the most to optimize their own characters regardless of how the other characters in their party are built. So it's fine for THEIR character to outshine the rest of the party, but not if someone else's character outshines theirs.
I think it's reasonable to balance the game. Calm down man.Someone failed their Sense Motive check for sarcasm.
Indubitably.
How many hit points does a bow have?you first need to succed in the combat maneuver first.
No, first you need to succeed at a Will save.
No, first you need to succeed at a Will save.How many hit points does a bow have?you first need to succed in the combat maneuver first.
Now I'm lost.
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Yes, there's a feat that can ameliorate this, but keep in mind that doesn't come into play until level 11, and that's assuming the fighter can take it right away (there are A LOT of archery feats to choose from... I love it!)
Rangers can get Improved Precise Shot (which is the feat I assume you are referencing) at 6th level if they take the archery combat style.
not if the archer wins initiative and the caster die. Also it has hothing to do with sunder.No, first you need to succeed at a Will save.How many hit points does a bow have?you first need to succed in the combat maneuver first.
I never mentioned sunder.
Also you are falling into Schroedinger's Character here.
The point is that there are enough counters to the archer that I'm not terribly worried. And many of them are not even archer specific.
Yes, there's a feat that can ameliorate this, but keep in mind that doesn't come into play until level 11, and that's assuming the fighter can take it right away (there are A LOT of archery feats to choose from... I love it!)Rangers can get Improved Precise Shot (which is the feat I assume you are referencing) at 6th level if they take the archery combat style.
Quite true, and there will always be exceptions. Rangers are a tough class to judge balance with, however, as their effectiveness is just so dependent on whether they're against their favored enemies or not.
Well, then there's the guide who can go ridiculous nova for a few encoutners per day.
Don't rangers get a spell that makes everyone their favored enemy?
Don't rangers get a spell that makes everyone their favored enemy?
Yes and no.
Instant enemy. Allows you to pick a target and treat them as one of your favorite enemies. The thing is, they can't already be on your favored enemy list. Doesn't always matter but when you have evil outsiders at +6 and undead at +2, instant enemy can't be used on the undead, even though you'd gain +4 on everything involved. A small limitation, but one that can come up.
My crossbow character wants to know what's going on in here. He doesn't understand why people think archers are OP. ;)
In slightly more seriousness, let's be honest shall we?
When Archers are being compared to Melee in this thread, it's not all that cut and dry is it?
Really, it's Bow Archers are being compared to Two-Handed Wielders.
Two-Weapon Fighters, Crossbow Archers, S&B Fighters, Open-Hand Fighters, etc... None of them can honestly compare to the raw potential of Dedicated Bow Archers or Two-Handed Fighters.
So the real request here is "Show me a Sword-and-Board or Two-Weapon Fighter who does as well as an archer build in combat?" They don't. Two-Weapon Fighting is sadly under-powered, especially if you're focusing only on the CRB since the Two-Weapon Warrior archetype from the APG comes closest to correcting these issues. A Sword and Board is either defense focused and not competing as a damage dealer, or bumps into the same issues as the TWF(i.e. limited attack/movement options). So many people compare the THF and archery builds, because those are the builds that are expected to do damage. Archery does it by pumping out twice as many attacks, THF does it by cranking out twice as much damage per hit. Mounted Combat builds are equally capable of dishing out huge damage (hello lance while attacking from a charging mount), but people don't reference them as often because a) everyone immediately counters with the "but you can't bring your horse everywhere" argument, even though most situations that preclude a mount also mean the archer is taking at least soft cover negatives to hit, and b) the answer to having a mount you can take everywhere is to play a halfling mounted warrior, and no one wants to be the first guy to make that suggestion.
I am frankly amazed that you could miss the point of Cheapys post so utterly and entirely. He makes a huge and legitimate rant about the topic how archers were amazing out of the core rulebook and people bring up special builds from a variety of sourcebooks to counter that argument, and you come up with something about two-weapon fighting and sword&board? Unreal.
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my responses to your responses in bold
My responses in bold...
Most of your points are a non-issue for a dedicated archer over 5th-level. Of those that are left, all but one also effects melee characters as well.
oh yeah and lets not forget....
^ Misleading; pretty much everyone needs line of sight, including melee monsters
A line of sight is the same as a Line of Effect but with the additional restriction that that it is blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight (such as Concealment
so you are WRONG WRONG WRONG a melee monster DOES NOT NEED LINE OF SIGHT i thought the caps and bold would stick that in your head better.
Easilyfixed with any number of items/feats; dedicated archers will never have this concern
wrong again, only 2 feats or items will negate the soft cover bonus given by bad party positioning, seeking/improved precise which i stated in my origional post, but i guess you were so full of the idea that i was wrong you missed it?^ Probably your only valid point
one of many actually
Having 6+ attacks per round and clustered shots makes this a non-issue
at what level did you get clustered shot? 1 2 3 4? half way through your career?!?!? my point is valid for most games, almost all that i have played, since most games stop before 14.Unless you are using durable arrows or have the Endless Ammunition enchantment
so my fighter archer, ranger archer, barbarian archer, rogue archer, cavalier archer, ninja archer, the list keeps going... can all use endless ammunition? not without focusing on umd and spending wealth, so i can actually use that spell. durable arrows i just found out are PFS legal, i was under the impression they werre 3rd party.
Only two wind spells shut them down effectively, compared to the 50+ spells that shut down melee characters effectively
youre kidding me right? i dont even need to respond to this.
most of you counter arguements are very flawed. and most of the issues stated above actually dont effect melee in such a negative way
wasn't a lashing arrow, but a slashing arrow.
TheSideKick, your indignation is such that this will be my last post directed towards you.
Endless Ammunition is a magical weapon property in Ultimate Equipment. Any class is capable of using it with or without ranks in Use Magic Device.
I don't care about rogues and other such classes, I was pretty much referring exclusively to dedicated archers such as the fighter, archer fighter, zen archer, etc. Pretty much anyone who doesn't get full base attack bonus with a bow and a lot of feats isn't a dedicated archer, they're just an adventurer who happen to have a bow (in all likelihood because it's the best overall ranged weapon in the game). As others have said, no one is really talking about sword and board, free hand, or other secondary fighter types. The only people who really compare, DPR-wise at least, are the dedicated archer and the two-handed weapon fighter.
Everyone needs line of sight to their target in order to be effective. Period. You are correct that fog is a little less troublesome for melee fighters, but not by much. Creatures with reach or spring attack will still be a real annoyance. What's more, your statement doesn't prove me wrong, as you gave me an example in which fighters maintained their line of sight. What I said was that everyone needs line of sight. Ergo, I'm not wrong until you show me an average character who does not need line of sight to his target to be effective. In short, you have yet to prove me WRONG WRONG WRONG.
TheSideKick, your indignation is such that this will be my last post directed towards you.
Endless Ammunition is a magical weapon property in Ultimate Equipment. Any class is capable of using it with or without ranks in Use Magic Device.
I don't care about rogues and other such classes, I was pretty much referring exclusively to dedicated archers such as the fighter, archer fighter, zen archer, etc. Pretty much anyone who doesn't get full base attack bonus with a bow and a lot of feats isn't a dedicated archer, they're just an adventurer who happen to have a bow (in all likelihood because it's the best overall ranged weapon in the game). As others have said, no one is really talking about sword and board, free hand, or other secondary fighter types. The only people who really compare, DPR-wise at least, are the dedicated archer and the two-handed weapon fighter.
Everyone needs line of sight to their target in order to be effective. Period. You are correct that fog is a little less troublesome for melee fighters, but not by much. Creatures with reach or spring attack will still be a real annoyance. What's more, your statement doesn't prove me wrong, as you gave me an example in which fighters maintained their line of sight. What I said was that everyone needs line of sight. Ergo, I'm not wrong until you show me an average character who does not need line of sight to his target to be effective. In short, you have yet to prove me WRONG WRONG WRONG.
LOL RD, I hope you are either an attorney or are training to be an attorney. Such a talent for sophistry and obfuscation deserves to be shared with the community at large. Sidekick did a pretty good job of rebutting your clumsy attempt to rebut my original post, and as is usual in these things, I leave it as an exercise to the readers and lurkers whether your points or my points are more valid. I'm pretty comfortable with my points.
The bottom line is this: Archer builds are good single-purpose damage producers. To get that good they have to pretty much dedicate themselves to archery investing virtually all of their available resources to the task. Being a top archer also requires at least dex and str to have significant bonuses since archers gain an attack bonus from dex and a damage bonus from str, a limitation that is not imposed on two handed fighter or other melee builds.
Your lame rebuttal notwithstanding it remains very much true that there are dozens of ways to obscure targets such that archers take significant attack penalties while melee characters in the same conditions gain full bonuses to their attacks. The simplest ways are not even magical, since a bit of fog or rain will do the trick nicely, and I've even had GMs impose attack penalties on archers due to "gusty winds."
Your original outrage which spawned this thread was all about a new 1,000g magic property which allows archers to gain the ability to have variable strength bonuses added to their bows, so that if they get, for example, "bull's strength" they gain a +2 damage using the new bow property. This, of course, is something that melee characters have had since Gary Gygax first woke up with a crazy idea. Plus melee characters get that benefit to BOTH attack AND damage rolls.
The new property is not remotely overpowered. It's a nice property that allows for intelligent parties to benefit slightly from strength buffing their archers.
Whether archers are overpowered or not is an entirely different discussion. My argument is that compared with a variety of melee builds, they are not, although the best archers are comparable in damage potential to the best melee builds. Both the best melee and the best archer builds are much, much more powerful than many other melee or ranged builds. TWF sucks. Throwing characters are a joke. Sword and board better be defensive builds. Properly built two-handed weapon and archery builds are the current DPR kings. But it is nothing but a personal opinion which of those is "better" and neither of them is remotely as much "better" than the other than EITHER is better than the lower tier martial builds.
Archers are great.... Until someone uses a 5th level spell "Fickle Winds" to completely shut them down.
Or the breaker barbarian sunders their bow.
By the way, for those who are interested in just pure tactics, what everyone should take away from this constant argument about which of the two "overpowered" builds, two-handed or archer, should be utilized, the answer is "both".
Or to put it another way, if you want your party to have the highest potential for success, put an optimized archer AND an optimized rage-pouncing 2h barbarian in the party.
Then watch them try to top each other in every combat. Good times.
Can the adapted quality be added to an Oath Bow? Since it is a fixed cost addition I would think it could.
It seems the few disadvantages that archers have just seem to keep falling away. Things like Snap Shot and Clustered Shots are obvious power creep as no archer in their right mind would pass them up.
I am sorry but I find this argument by anyone very lacking. One could say the same thing about taking the two weapon fighting feats if you want to do two weapon fighting.
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....now if only archers could get Dex to dmg....
Guided weapon property (+1 equivalent) uses WIS for both Attack and Damage. It is pretty close to what you are looking for.
I am VERY happy that we can now see some Barbarian Archers who don't have to change weapons each time they rage.
I am POSITIVELY ECSTATIC that, if I understand this new enchantment right, Archers will not be screwed as soon as they get hit with STR drain.
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I'm glad that Bows are not the wimpy weapons that they were in previous editions. I just wish there was a way to make long range combat with a single bow vs a single target a little more difficult to hit one's target unless they are unaware of your presence.
At Extreme range, a bow will take 9 to 12 seconds, 1.5 to 2 full combat rounds to reach the target so unless they are sitting still, it's pretty much a miss.
However at very close range, if someone has a bow readied on you, time to do what they want as you probably can't move fast enough to be missed in the time it takes from Point A, the Archer, to point B, that's you the target
*Yawn*
When archers can teleport across the planet, fly, raise the dead, create walls, summon angels, create their own pocket planes of existence, cast buff spells on the party like haste, go invisible and ethereal...
Get back to me then. I'll admit they're overpowered.
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The strength thing was ALWAYS stupid and unfair. RAW, there wasn't even a way to readjust the strength rating later on. And you lose just 1 str, and you suffer not only damage loss, but -2 to hit! I'm glad paizo wisened up and provided a solution ot the madness. I was lucky; my current PF archer is in a game that allows 3E content. He's a shapechanging druid archer, his str fluctuates like crazy. If not for the Bow of the Wintermoon (3E item; basically does what this does) with sizing property (still sadly lacking in PF), he'd basically be unplayable.
Until this, the only reason the freaking sling wasn't a better choice of weapon was because for some reason paizo and 3E refuse to think they can be reloaded rapidly...
Not to knock the sling, it was a great weapon and rivaled the bow depending on the situation. But in 3E rules context, the fact that a high str character's only reason not to use the practically free, simple weapon over the martial weapon bow was lack of a way to full attack with it (well...quickdraw + lots of pre-loaded slings works...which only makes the rapid reload lockout seem even more ridiculous) was pretty nuts.
Pathfinder is game, where there's a group of people trying to have fun.
Nobody makes the player of an archer character take all the best options.
Pathfinder is game, where there's a group of people trying to have fun.
Nobody makes the player of an archer character take all the best options.
Nothing makes the game more unfun then everything having the cr*p shot out of it before anyone else gets a go!!
options: if you get sucked into being an archer, then often you cant help but go with the 'best' options
By the way, for those who are interested in just pure tactics, what everyone should take away from this constant argument about which of the two "overpowered" builds, two-handed or archer, should be utilized, the answer is "both".
Or to put it another way, if you want your party to have the highest potential for success, put an optimized archer AND an optimized rage-pouncing 2h barbarian in the party.
Then watch them try to top each other in every combat. Good times.
Just started a game with a Paladin 2h sword build, and a Archer Fighter. Im playing a Malconvoker (home-brew archetype) Summoner. We have one more party member that hasn't made his character yet so no telling what he will play.
As the Summoner I plan to use CC to funnel stuff to our two DPS juggernauts and buff them to high heaven with haste and summons and such. I wont get my Eidolon till 4th level. Not sure what I will do with him yet.
It should be fun watching the two massacre stuff while I make sure the fight stays as much in our favor as possible. I doubt I will ever kill a single creature... and I'm cool with that lol.
wasn't a lashing arrow, but a slashing arrow.
An arrow with a kukri tied to the end?
The Black Raven:
Guided is a 3.5 weapon property that has not been ported over to the PFRPG. It is not legal in PF society games and many GMs will not allow 3.5 equipment or rules. Before you say 'but it is PF because it was published by Paizo!' it is from 2008 and thus is still 3.5 as opposed to PFRPG. As most 3.5era stuff it is up to the GM to include it or not since Paizo has not updated it.
- Gauss
wasn't a lashing arrow, but a slashing arrow.An arrow with a kukri tied to the end?Just because you're unable to imagine a slashing arrow doesn't mean they're not possible. A slashing arrow would be broad instead of pointy. Or it could have the tip look like a snakes tongue.
Example #1.
Example #2.
I'll let you guess which ones are the slashing arrows.
And a bludgeoning arrow.
Geeze, that forked tip is mean looking!
I am by no means an arrow expert, so perhaps you could help me understand the effect of an arrow tipped that way vs an arrow with a traditional tip. I guess flavor-wise how do you see that kind of arrow overcoming damage reduction on impact as opposed to a standard arrow.
Broad-tipped arrows were used against lightly-armoured targets, specifically animals. They're harder to remove and do more tissue damage. Forked arrows would be used aboard ships, to try and cut the enemy's rigging. Pyramid-tipped arrows have armour-piercing qualities.
I am by no means an arrow expert, so perhaps you could help me understand the effect of an arrow tipped that way vs an arrow with a traditional tip.The first one slashes and the second one pierces.
This doesn't really help. As I understand it, the projection of an arrow is straight, or arced rather, which means that while a forked tipped or flat tipped arrow may pierce in a different fashion, it is none the less piercing the target with a finite radius.
The effect of a kukri or longsword when used in a slashing motion does not have a finite radius. The wound can be as long as the wielder is capable of making it.
Edit: What I really wanna try and understand is how I can explain how that kind of arrow will do more damage to a Treant than a standard arrow.
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Unless your playing a fighter who can affors the feats not may other classes imo are going to be awesome archers. Good possible yet awesome too much imo to invest. I'm playing a Bard who is also the ranged support in the party. I need to take point blank shot, precise shot while also having to make sure to keep room for Bardic feats. Many archery style feats also require other feats to be taken, a certain amount of BAB and usually a attrbute reuqirement. Ley say I decided to go with the Improved Precise Shot at a later team requires the above feats, a dex of 19 and a BAB of +11. Yes archers in the game can be aewsome yet unlike a fighter who can swing and hit at 1st level. Dedicated archers can't it takes time. Posters need to stop theorycrafting worst case scenarios and use some commen sense. I guess you beeter outlaw Abudant Ammunition as a spell at the table then. It makes it so that you never run out of ammuntion until the duration runs out. I swear sometimes thes boards are just unbeleivable. A week barely goes buy without someone coming here and going "OMG this feat, spell, class, etc is broken". I would not be surpirsed if the DEVs are not starting to get annoyed.
If I have all the reuquirements. Take the right feats. Have enough Bab and the correct attribute requirements why the hell should I not be a awesome archer. If I have no benefit at the end why take an archer in the first place.
@ kyburn The curved tines on the forked arrow do allow a certain amount of RW slashing damage. As someone said, they were mostly used in naval engagements to damage rigging.
I personally see no need to add slashing arrows. How often is DRslashing a problem. And if it is, I think most archers have clustered shot anyway these days.
It seems the few disadvantages that archers have just seem to keep falling away. Things like Snap Shot and Clustered Shots are obvious power creep as no archer in their right mind would pass them up.
Well, it's a new day and we have new features thanks to Ultimate Equipment. It used to be that every time you increased your strength score, you had to either suck up not having enough composite strength bonus in your bow to fully utilize your damage potential, or else pay out your wazoo to replace your bow with an entirely new one (which can get real costly when you're higher level and frequently exchanging +5 bows).
But now Ultimate Equipment gives us the adaptive weapon quality, a 1,000gp magical weapon property that can be placed on composite bows, which allows the wielder to pick the bow's strength rating.
Nifty huh?
I have several characters that I am adapting that are only paying a 100-300gp for this enchantment since they are giving up their +7 to +9 strength bonus (at 100gp per +1 bonus). What archer wouldn't go for this!?
Ammo isn't even a concern anymore thanks to the conservative and endless ammunition weapon properties.
Do you think archers are getting too much support (compared to other classes)? Or do you see this more as a much needed "fix?"
We must beware of power creep. These new feats and properties, my games don't use them. Archers should be vulnerable in close, be able to pour out the damage but also face restrictions tied to what they are doing. As in, when dming for archers, throw in terrain, darkness, things getting in the way of a shot, just like in real life (I've done some archery).
So by all means play the archer, but know that at times, the terrain will really limit what you can shoot, because it limits what you can see. Some games like warband and dark souls can give you ideas for running a game for archers.
wasn't a lashing arrow, but a slashing arrow.An arrow with a kukri tied to the end?Just because you're unable to imagine a slashing arrow doesn't mean they're not possible. A slashing arrow would be broad instead of pointy. Or it could have the tip look like a snakes tongue.
Example #1.
Example #2.
I'll let you guess which ones are the slashing arrows.
And a bludgeoning arrow.
Don't forget judo heads, they are fantastic. Course, is your world up to that tech or do they just use blunts?