|
Now that I got your attention with the messageboard title I need input on if this unholy build would actually be legal as I suspect. I call it the Gilgimesh build.
Alchemist LV-2 With the Archetypes Vivisectionist for sneak attack, Rage Chemist for +6 strength, and Internal Alchemist because hey I think it is cool. Go with the Vestigal Arm Discovery. Pick up the extra discovery feat to get an additional Vestigal arm ASAP.
Barbarian LV-2 With the Archetypes Wild Rager for the Extra attack that stacks with haste and Raging Drunk to extend your limited number of rounds of rage for the day. Go with Reckless Abandon Rage Power for +1 attack -1 Ac when raging to assist in two-weapon fighting penalties.
Ninja for all other levels to expand on sneak attack, add poison use, Invisibility, and most importantly spending Ki for that additional attack.
With Wild Rager and Ninja Ki with Haste you get 3 additional attacks in addition to two-weapon fighting. With the two Vestigal Arm discoveries you can dual wield Two-handed weapons. With the Rage Chemist and Barbarian Rage you have +10 strength for that fight where you need to go all or nothing (Boss Fight). Rage Chemist would last 20 minutes and if you are burning through your rounds of normal rage you can extend it during rounds you are not swinging with Raging Drunk. Also The extra Rage feat may not be a bad choice later. Use Power Attack and get the 2 handed damage progression with poisened Nodachi's for maximum damage with amazing crit range. Use healing wands and extracts for self buffs thanks to Alchemist. Make sure to carry potions of enlarge for more strength, damage, and reach.
First turn of combat use swift invisibility and drink your Mutagen while you set yourself up for a flank for sneak attack. Second round trigger rage and do a full attack with poisened Nodachi's expending a Ki for an additional attack while using power attack.
P.S. If you wanted to dual focus you could drop Raging Drunk for Hurler increasing range with shurikans to 20 ft. Then Get the shurikan ninja ability to throw two extra and combine with Two-Weapon Fighting, Rapid Shot, Point Blank Shot, Deadly Aim, Sneak Attack, and Poison Use. Talk about a surprise round! :)
*counts the seconds before someone pops in, commenting 'Yes. And? Still not as powerful as a spellcaster!'*
You have great mid-level potential. You rely on limited resources like mutagen, ki and rage to overcome otherwise large penalties while running a dominant 3/4 BAB class. Poison is horribly expensive if you want something useful. Also looks rather easy to take down once he is going berserk, barring preparation in form of potions and extracts, as rage + abandon = low AC, and only 2 levels of barbarian means your dominant HD is d8, and assuming ninja as your favored class, you are missing out on 4 HP taking other classes.
Verdict: Good "nova"/boss-killer, sub-par when not doing nova. Recommended on nova APs like Kingmaker, Jade Regent etc. Not so much on dungeon heavy ones. On higher levels, dedicated builds will catch up to you, but right out of the gate, you do good damage.
Being Goro from Mortal Kombat might raise a few eyebrows as well. But as an exercise in stretching the potentials of the system, who cares, amirite?
I don't really know how powerful your build is, but I would really like to know how you can get 3 archetypes who replace or alter the same class features and assume your build is legal ...
|
|
I agree with the verdict that this would not be a very effective "tank" style character as well. As he is slotted for 16 levels of ninja I think it is safe to say he would be filling the same role as the groups rouge or ninja. An ambush fighter that gets out of combat quick if things are not going his way. If I am getting pounded on on with this build then my group has either left me to die or I am making some very poor decisions. He can always fall back on invisibility and good old fashioned stealth if things get to hairy. Also I am not sure if you are familiar with the multi-armed dimension hopping swordsman from the Final Fantasy franchise named Gilgimesh but this is more or less my take on him (Not to say I dislike Goro from Mortal Kombat).
|
|
Was not able to find a developer post on the issue of rage and sneak attack but on the two boards I looked at most players seem to agree that they are compatible. In the end it goes down to who is running the game of course. As I would not throw this build at a GM without forwarning anyway I would just ask him his ruling before playing the character.
There is no ruling that sneak attack requires patience. Spellcasting might though, especially if you try to cast defensively.
|
|
Alchemists infusions are made in the morning and are imbibed just as a potion later in the day. Spellcasting never comes into play with this build. In fact he is probably wearing medium armor to offset his otherwise low armor class. I should also probably note that his offhand weapon would be a wakazashi or he would refrain from useing power attack when he is not preparing to rage to minimize penalties. This build would in all ways function as a standard DPS Ninja build with high strength until he sees an enemy that needs "assassinated". Barbarian rage is more or less a last resort as the Wild Rager's extra attack works even outside of rages. The +3 to hit +2 to damage though nice is not so game breaking that it is a crutch.
Thanks everyone for the imput but unless someone can find something else that is not legal I am going to put this build on paper and see how he plays.
|
I would like to see what someone from paizo has to say about the sneak attack while raging issue as to me that's a very gray area
I do not see any grey area. The only thing sneak attack requires are.
The rogue's attack deals extra damage (called "precision damage") anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target.
And The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.
Rage does not effect vision in any way.
As far as I can tell the op only took 2 lvl's of barbarian and alchemist so he can exploit a loophole in the rules and make a killing machine
Sorry but the whole build whiffs of power gaming to me
In my view of course
Ofc it is powergaming. He never said smth else
He even pretty much said it :)
if this unholy build
So it's just another pointless exercise in how to exploit a loop hole
So it's just another pointless exercise in how to exploit a loop hole
Pointless to you is enjoyment for others.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Sorry we'll agree to disagree to me it's still a gray area as you say in your post that sneak attack is "precision damage" and to be precise about some thing requires so amount of thought as to where you place the attack you would need to look for an opening and then take advantage of it
Where as some one who is raging is just being as aggressive as possible and is trying to smash there opponent to death with little thought to anything else
Even to the detriment to their own safety (which is why they receive a - to AC)
So I think it's DM call to how they want it played in there game
I've seen barbarian rogue build for over 10 years with 3.5 and PF systems. This is the first time I've even seen a suggestion that sneak attack and rage don't work well together.
Also the fluff reason doesn't make much sense either, when you are angry aren't you MORE likely to go for the most painful/powerful hit locations? Like going for kidney shots or throat punches. Or the bar fight sneak attacks you see in movies (bottle on the back of head, pool cue across small of back ect).
So I think its a player call if they want to play with a GM who would make such a nerf (to such a rare combo in martial classes which hardly needs nerfing).
On the build itself I'm not overly concerned about power. Still requires full attacks to work, damage is not significantly above other more vanilla DPR characters, and still has a hideously low will save.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
While a fun idea, I would argue this build is actually quite weak.
TWF with Nodachis gives you a -4 to attack. Adding Wild Fighting makes it -6. That is pretty massive penalty, especially when you are losing a point of BaB to Alchemist and more to Ninja. Even when novaing with mutagen and rage you will only break even, which is going to be problematic against bosses (who tend to have higher ACs). Extra damage from from the Strength boost doesn't matter if you don't connect. In the end, a boring old Vivisectionist would probably have a more effective attack routine.
While nova is going to be scary, I'd argue it is worse for his allies than the enemy. Whenever he drops an opponent he is going to have to make a DC12ish Will save or attack whoever is nearest, and whenever he takes damage he needs to make a DC 15 Will save or get a -2 penalty to Intelligence and Will saves. These DCs may not seem that high, until you realize that this build is going to have a base Will save of +0 until level 7. Even with precautions, that weak of a save is enough to make the whole build worrisome. Having an ally turn to an enemy with a failed Will save is bad enough when they aren't four-armed Barbarian Ninjas hopped up on mutagen.
You'll also be MAD as all get-out, needing Strength for attack and damage, Dexterity for TWF pre-reqs (and to help your terrible AC), Constitution to make up for d8 HD and lost levels of Favored Class, at least an 11 intelligence to use your extracts, a high Wisdom to make up for horrible Will, and Charisma for Ninja Ki. Literally no dump stats. A character with a more generic build would be able to focus on a few important stats instead, again allowing to equal or surpass even this build's nova.
None of this to say that the idea isn't cool, and with very careful building it could even be moderately effective. However, I doubt the overall result will be as powerful as a more straightforward build, and certainly doesn't deserve people denigrating it for being "cheesy" or "power gaming." It is completely within the rules and uses a weird combination of classes to copy a neat character from a video game that the creator would like to imitate. Nothing wrong with that.
|
|
We are not talking about someone being angry
Rage is meant to be a state of mind where the person is almost consumed with hate and all reasoning is lost they just want to hurt there enemy as much as possible.
Which is why all good fighters (boxers or martial artists) keep there cool they don't give in to anger so they can keep there head and take advantage of every chance they get
And as for the sneak attacks in movies there normal made by someone that is not in a toe to toe fight with there target (which is why there sneak attacks)
So sorry still not sold on the sneak attack while raging argument
Whether you like it or not, Rage has always intentionally worked with Sneak Attack, including in the wording. Nothing about either ability excluding the other. Precision damage is a generic term to designate bonus damage not multiplied on a crit.
A sneak attack isn't always a subtile move on a critical body part ; it's also hitting like a mad man on the eyes/balls/kidneys/nerves. That's why a Str-based rogue is able to sneak attack, despite his precision coming from his Strength and not from his dexterity.Even then, assuming your interpretation of the rules, I just need to ask : why wouldn't you be able to deal precision damage when you are in a state actually increasing your precision, since you get at 1st level a +2 to hit while raging ? Looks like gaining "precision" in the most precise sense of the word to me.
We are not talking about someone being angry
Rage is meant to be a state of mind where the person is almost consumed with hate and all reasoning is lost they just want to hurt there enemy as much as possible.
Which is why all good fighters (boxers or martial artists) keep there cool they don't give in to anger so they can keep there head and take advantage of every chance they get
And as for the sneak attacks in movies there normal made by someone that is not in a toe to toe fight with there target (which is why there sneak attacks)
So sorry still not sold on the sneak attack while raging argument
You don't have to be sold, no one's selling.
The only requirements to use the Sneak Attack class feature are:1) Target is within line of sight and effect and within 30' or in melee.
2) Target is denied his DEX bonus to AC or is being flanked.
3) Target is vulnerable to precision damage.
No clarity of thought required.
And yes, they get it on every melee attack that meets those requirements.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Going to throw in my bit for "not a good build".
The reason for four levels of alchemist are as follows. One, we get the full +3 BAB from the four levels, which is much more efficient than going ninja/alchemist. Two, we get access to second level extracts, so he can have access to invisibility, but more importantly, alchemical allocation. And three, we get a longer-lasting mutagen (which we can later combine with Infuse Mutagen for a less nova-y character).
Barb 1 Power Attack, Iron Will (taken for the high hit dice)
Alch 2
Alch 3 (Feral Mutagen), Extra Rage
Alch 4
Alch 5 (Vestigial Arm), Extra Discovery (Vestigial Arm)
Barb 6 (Reckless Abandon)
Barb 7 Extra Discovery: Infuse Mutagen
Barb 8 (Lesser Fiend Totem)
Barb 9 Improved Iron Will
Barb 10 Fiend Totem
So this build will not have as many attacks, but it will have a higher BAB, and a much more reliable attack scheme.
When not using mutagen, he wields a two-handed weapon, as well as a heavy shield and likely a free hand for extract consumption. The two-handed weapon can be a reach weapon or a nodachi, as you prefer.
When using mutagen, he grows claws and a bite attack, and while raging he gains a gore attack as well. This means he can fight with a reach weapon and also have four natural attacks when his opponent comes in (all with 2d6 sneak attack). Naturally when novaing he would have to choose between the reach weapon and a heavy shield.
Iron Will and Improved Iron Will offset the biggest penalty of the ragechemist, and also the fact that both the barbarian and the alchemist have a poor will save. Extra Rage makes up for the levels of alchemist, and improves the character's stamina, while Fiend Totem makes him dangerous to hit (which is good, because he'll be easy to hit).
If I were building these character's stats with a 20 point-buy, they would look like this (human):
Str 17, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 7
Strength being the prime stat, it's increased the most. Dexterity, wisdom and constitution are all very important for this build's survival, and intelligence we take the bare minimum to allow this character to prepare first and second level extracts (while mutagened his extracts stay potent, and if he labels them clearly, he should have no trouble drinking the right one). Charisma is of course the major dump stat.
|
|
@The Saltmarsh 6: You are in the extreme minority as far as I'm concerned. There is nothing in the Pathfinder ruleset that requires someone using sneak attack to be concentrating. Concentrating is a thing in Pathfinder: it is something that is specifically called out when required. If it's not mentioned, it's not required. Sneak attack should probably be renamed, but there is nothing in the rules that disallows a raging barbarian (who fulfills the prerequisites for sneak attack, ie. flanking, being invisible) from using the ability.
|
We are not talking about someone being angry
Rage is meant to be a state of mind where the person is almost consumed with hate and all reasoning is lost they just want to hurt there enemy as much as possible.
Which is why all good fighters (boxers or martial artists) keep there cool they don't give in to anger so they can keep there head and take advantage of every chance they get
And as for the sneak attacks in movies there normal made by someone that is not in a toe to toe fight with there target (which is why there sneak attacks)
So sorry still not sold on the sneak attack while raging argument
The truth of the matter everyone is trying to get across is that it doesn't matter because this build is really mediocre. He is going to be losing HP, +hit, class features, be hideous physically, and all around be meh.
If he wants to build this monstrosity its gonna be a roleplaying dream, but he won't dominate one way or another that any other class can't already...
A barbarian can call upon inner reserves of strength and ferocity, granting her additional combat prowess. Starting at 1st level, a barbarian can rage for a number of rounds per day equal to 4 + her Constitution modifier. At each level after 1st, she can rage for 2 additional rounds. Temporary increases to Constitution, such as those gained from rage and spells like bear's endurance, do not increase the total number of rounds that a barbarian can rage per day. A barbarian can enter rage as a free action. The total number of rounds of rage per day is renewed after resting for 8 hours, although these hours do not need to be consecutive.
While in rage, a barbarian gains a +4 morale bonus to her Strength and Constitution, as well as a +2 morale bonus on Will saves. In addition, she takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class. The increase to Constitution grants the barbarian 2 hit points per Hit Dice, but these disappear when the rage ends and are not lost first like temporary hit points. While in rage, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration.
A barbarian can end her rage as a free action and is fatigued after rage for a number of rounds equal to 2 times the number of rounds spent in the rage. A barbarian cannot enter a new rage while fatigued or exhausted but can otherwise enter rage multiple times during a single encounter or combat. If a barbarian falls unconscious, her rage immediately ends, placing her in peril of death.
Say hello to the raging sneak attack!
|
|
The +2 to hit is due to increased strengh nothing else
And I'm not going to get into the whole "why does more strengh mean you are more likely to hit" debate
That's been a question for over 30 years and it's just the way the game is
And increased Strength means you are more likely to hit, indeed ? So, you gain precision ?
According to your logic, Sneak Attack can be done only if you are able to hit precisely ; which seems to exclude Raging, despite the two abilities not being exclusive in the wording since Sneak Attack is clear about when it is activated.Since raging means you hit more precisely on critical points, and sneak attack requires the target to be unable to defend itself, why can't I sneak a creature unable to defend itself while raging ?
Just because your interpretation of this 30-year old mechanic doesn't fit the actual system doesn't mean you are right. Sneak Attack rules are cristal clear ; as are Raging rules.
Sorry we'll agree to disagree to me it's still a gray area as you say in your post that sneak attack is "precision damage" and to be precise about some thing requires so amount of thought as to where you place the attack you would need to look for an opening and then take advantage of it
Where as some one who is raging is just being as aggressive as possible and is trying to smash there opponent to death with little thought to anything else
Even to the detriment to their own safety (which is why they receive a - to AC)
So I think it's DM call to how they want it played in there gameI've seen barbarian rogue build for over 10 years with 3.5 and PF systems. This is the first time I've even seen a suggestion that sneak attack and rage don't work well together.
Also the fluff reason doesn't make much sense either, when you are angry aren't you MORE likely to go for the most painful/powerful hit locations? Like going for kidney shots or throat punches. Or the bar fight sneak attacks you see in movies (bottle on the back of head, pool cue across small of back ect).
So I think its a player call if they want to play with a GM who would make such a nerf (to such a rare combo in martial classes which hardly needs nerfing).
On the build itself I'm not overly concerned about power. Still requires full attacks to work, damage is not significantly above other more vanilla DPR characters, and still has a hideously low will save.
Thank you Notabot, +1 this is how I see it as well.
I remember a 3.5 third party book named the Quintessential Dwarf, by Mongoose publishing that featured a "degenerate stalker", basically required you to first multi-class as a Barbarian Rogue. My buddy was obsessed with the concept, tried to Role one out a few times and could never seem to get the build to meet the taste he was seeking. Personally fond of the concept myself, kinda reminds me of Mel Gibsons ambush of the british soldiers in The Patriot...without the guns...unless you also multi classed musket master gunslinger :-)
Say hello to the raging sneak attack!
AWE YEAH LOVED THAT SCENE!!!
Ok I might have missed it somewhere...
But how would you Dual-Wield Nodachi?
Ok I might have missed it somewhere...
But how would you Dual-Wield Nodachi?
4 arms.
@notabot Okay it makes sense now... Vestigial Arms gotta love them.
@Mergy I agree... It might be better to use 2 arms for weapons (a 2HW or 2 1HW/Light Weapons) then 1 hand for a shield and the final for potion/extracts/mutagen/alchemical flasks/etc.
|
|
@notabot Okay it makes sense now... Vestigial Arms gotta love them.
@Mergy I agree... It might be better to use 2 arms for weapons (a 2HW or 2 1HW/Light Weapons) then 1 hand for a shield and the final for potion/extracts/mutagen/alchemical flasks/etc.
Well I've posted my version of this build. Unfortunately, the 'Gilgamesh Build' suffers from being MAD and confused.
Just pointing out that the raging rule is hideously unclear.
"While in rage, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration ."
Concentration could be referring to its use in maintaining certain spells, but patience certainly isn't defined anywhere as a game term. Therefore, what interacts with barbarian rage is almost completely at the whim of GM.
PFS default might be to ignore the patience restriction, but any home game could justify almost anything as incompatible with rage by arguing patience required.
Rage vs patience is murkier waters than the paladin code vs contrived situations.
Just pointing out that the raging rule is hideously unclear.
"While in rage, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration ."
Concentration could be referring to its use in maintaining certain spells, but patience certainly isn't defined anywhere as a game term. Therefore, what interacts with barbarian rage is almost completely at the whim of GM.
PFS default might be to ignore the patience restriction, but any home game could justify almost anything as incompatible with rage by arguing patience required.Rage vs patience is murkier waters than the paladin code vs contrived situations.
The rage rule doesn't matter because the sneak attack rule is very well defined. It works when the opponent is denied his dex or flanked. No conditions on it, no mention of it requiring anything more than being able to see and attack the target.
|
|
Hahaha everyone needs to relax! This is a fun build it was never intended to start any wars. The primary misconceptions about this build that I am seeing is the thought that it is dependent on rage which honestly would be a stupid decision most of the time as then you have to contend with confusion. Confusion gives a 25% chance that he will attack the nearest creature (not necessarily an ally) which could potentially make him a danger to the group. Furthermore after the fact he has to deal with fatigue which is an annoyance.
The fluff for this character that I am going for is that he has an "inner demon" that he is ashamed of that is constantly struggling to get out. When he is raging that is when the "inner demon" is taking control, the confusion helps represent that. He developed a potion that lets the "inner demon" manifest completetly but under his control (rage mutagen). Over the years the demon (probably a Marilth) has gained ground in their struggle (hence the arms). He is a desert nomad that wonders the deserts away from society to protect them from himself. When dealing with society he keeps his extra arms crossed underneath his robes as he feels shamed by them they represent irifutable evidence that he is possessed.
Abilities like Wild Fighting, Rage, Mutagen, Power Attack, and even Two-weapon fighting all have to be chosen on a case by case basis. If he is having trouble connecting with attacks he would just swing with one nodachi that turn. In his off-hand he will have a wakazashi for use if a full attack with Two-weapon fighting is deemed neccesary (though I plan to collect many types of swords for flavor). If he has the flank he will probably use two-weapon fighting because it gives the +2 to hit, and depending on the opponent maybe even Wild Fighting and Ninja Ki for more attacks. Also if his allies give buffs to hit such as from a Bard or Aid another he would be more likely to use more of his abilities in normal fights. At all times however he reserves the ability to "bring out his inner demon" to bring down a difficult opponent. Aside from losing 1d6 sneak attack he is really no worse than a ninja of his level. In fact due to the extra arms, extracts and wand use i would argue he has many more options on the table available to him. He is designed to be a highly adaptable support build, not a melee tank. If you guys really want me to design a primary melee combatant version of this I would be happy to oblige.
To me a sneak attack is nothing more than striking when/where your opponent isn't expecting such as how a feint works. You make your opponent think you are striking High-Left when you really strike Low-Right. Or while they are focused on your comrade you strike their back.
But I would recommend only using one Nodachi. or using a Katana & Wakizashi.
Gilgamesh Feindish totem rage powers would be cool with that background. Tireless Rage would decrease the fatigued issue. and I don't remember the confusion issue...
On the 1/2 strength point. I would say he would get 1-1/2x strength on his main hand & 1x Strength on his off-hand. Though that is just me.
GM fiat and all that...
Edit: I think the build is good for the background and that it makes a wonderful Striker.
|
|
Also I should probably note that this build if made for pathfinder society would likely have a lower stats then if I made him for a home game. Ideally I would like to see 20 strength on his stat block to help him land attacks and bump up his damage. To do so in pathfinder society however would force him to take many dump stats which I would probably get rid of intelligence as well and just use wands. The stats I would go with in society would be...
Strength 18+2 human
Dexterity 16
Constitution 14
Intelligence 7
Wisdom 7
Charisma 7
I would bump up dex at lv 4 for improved 2-weapon fighting and would probably not be eligeable for greater 2-weapon due to the level cap of 12. If you had the advanced race guide you could forgo the feat and skill points to add 2 to con or even dex but I think I would prefer the feat in this case. As for extracts he would need to some day invest in a +4 intelligence item because I do not think that a wand of Fox's Cunning has a long enough duration to prepare them. His one skill would likely be Stealth. If you want more dimensions to the character you would have to sacrifice combat abilities which is fine in my book but this post shows max damage potential.
Edit: I forgot about the Ninja Ki ability so I would drop dex to 15, con to 12, and would raise charisma to 12. Also I would forgo the feat and just add 2 to dex at character creation via advanced race guide.
Strength 18+2 human
Dexterity 16
Constitution 14
Intelligence 7
Wisdom 7
Charisma 7
Here is what I would use:
STR: 17(+3)DEX: 16(+3)14+2(human)
CON: 14(+2)
INT: 14(+2)
WIS: 07(-2)
CHA: 07(-2)
You sacrifice STR in favor of being able to use most of the Alchemist's extracts. and have some good skill points which your desert nomad would probably put to good use on Knowledge(nature) & Survival.
EDIT: Getting that extra +2 means giving up your Skilled AND Bonus Feat Traits. Also Where are you getting Ninja Ki?