Nemal |
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Yep. That's right. We're using masses of kobold minions to mine it, too.
This means the party has a huge wealth income.
Here's the catch, though.
Because we understand how D&D works and we do not want to kill the goose laying the golden eggs, we do -not- want to spend -any- of the gold mine proceeds in items that increase our characters' combat performance.
Because, if we do so, then we'll quickly find that the flow of funds dries up and dies. We don't want to give the DM an OOC incentive to take it away.
So, with that in mind.
What suggestions would you have for cool and fun, yet no-impact-on-combat items and investments that a fairly rich low-level party could get? :P
We've discussed stuff like building golems or getting magical traps for our evil lair and such, but no really awesome ideas so far... ^^
Redwidow |
Nice!
I would also start living large; build a castle nearby the mine and start hiring specialized folks to work/live near you. That way, even if you don't have combat advantages per se, you can build a nice network of contacts and merchants for your adventuring needs...
Pay to build a road from a nearby settlement to enhance trade! think big!
Krome |
Evil lair? I presume then the group is not good...
Okay... gat an NPC to start recruiting area orcs and hobgoblins. Equip them to a MUCH higher standard than usual. Send them out to fight the humans and try to take over the world.
Okay, so now you have your NPCs fighting other NPCs and you can get on with being heroes (or villains) instead of merchants. :)
Otherwise spend the money on fortifications around the mine. If you have it now and go adventuring, when you get back the area orcs will have overrun your kobolds and claimed it.
Use the money for flavor and fun. Assure the GM you are playing Dungeons and Dragons (or Pathfinder) and not Merchants and Accountants.
If you abuse the fluff, the GM should feel justified in taking it away.
Nemal |
Evil lair? I presume then the group is not good...
Well, no. Evil party- so evil they went corporate. They call themselves Permanent Solutions, Inc.
Okay... gat an NPC to start recruiting area orcs and hobgoblins. Equip them to a MUCH higher standard than usual. Send them out to fight the humans and try to take over the world.
That's not their particular brand of evil, though. We -are- doing something similar with kobolds, but... Not so much to conquer the world yet, but maybe at higher level... (we're level 7!)
Use the money for flavor and fun. Assure the GM you are playing Dungeons and Dragons (or Pathfinder) and not Merchants and Accountants.
Oh, most of the game revolves around killing things and taking their stuff. It's just that we also have a gold mine now. :P
Fleshgrinder |
More gold into the local economy means each gold piece is worth less.
It's why monetary systems based on physical objects of value aren't very good.
One "boom" of that resource and your whole economy turns itself upside down.
It'd be like if we switched back to a gold standard in the modern world. The first time we mine an asteroid full of gold (and they're common), our entire economy farts.
Gold works in PF/D&D only because rules don't exist to accurately portray economic fluctuation based on amount.
For example, in real life, if a party looted a dragon's horde they would DESTROY the local economy.
So if your DM starts to get a little nervous, just remind him that your gold is probably not worth as much as it would be due to the sheer amount you are infusing into the local economy.
Bomanz |
I guess I don't understand why this lucrative gold mine replete with a cowardly work force who would kowtow to the most powerful being around hasn't been attacked by a big dragon looking for a hoard/lair yet.
But then, as a PC in that group, I'd be readying my Ballistas and spear chuckers and magical protections against such a thing.
Still, im sure that somewhere among the Kobold-y minions is a smarter/cunning little bloke who is fomenting a revolution.
Nemal |
I guess I don't understand why this lucrative gold mine replete with a cowardly work force who would kowtow to the most powerful being around hasn't been attacked by a big dragon looking for a hoard/lair yet.
Well, two things.
One, it's a secret gold mine (so far, anyway. We know it won't last forever)
Two, the party's leader is a kobold cleric of Tiamat, so we're actually on really good terms with chromatic dragons in general.
But, yeah, sooner or later something with higher CR than us will move in and take over, we're well aware.
Our goal is to deplete the mineral resources before that happens, and we're investing a fair amount of money into making sure no one finds out about the place.
ossian666 |
I guess I don't understand why this lucrative gold mine replete with a cowardly work force who would kowtow to the most powerful being around hasn't been attacked by a big dragon looking for a hoard/lair yet.
But then, as a PC in that group, I'd be readying my Ballistas and spear chuckers and magical protections against such a thing.
Still, im sure that somewhere among the Kobold-y minions is a smarter/cunning little bloke who is fomenting a revolution.
OoOoOOoOOoo very true...
Wolfsnap |
1) Spend your gold expanding the mine into a labyrinthine complex of maze-like corridors connecting a series of tombs, temples, and treasuries.
2) Then stock the place with guardian monsters which gradually become tougher and more capable the further into the complex you delve.
3) Seal yourselves into lowest, most dangerous chamber of the mine.
4) Slowly transform into immortal undead abominations of your former selves.
5) Wait 1000 years.
6) Profit!
Bomanz |
As an aside to the whole economics thing, take a gander at some of the other equipment lists and things that you can do with a relatively small amount of gold.
Setting yourself up as a caravan master/master merchant is simple and easy to do. Same with a cattle baron, or a horse baron, or some similar kind of thing.
Some of the PFS modules by 5th level are giving out 1500ish GP per adventure....thats a veritable fortune!
Adventuring to finance a "store" or something, it becomes a lot more feasible to understand why you see so many low level guys, but not quite as many high level adventurers.
Helic |
More gold into the local economy means each gold piece is worth less.
It takes a LOT of gold to do this. We're talking on the level of the Spanish taking the central americans for all their gold. The default setting is basically already ridiculously gold-abundant, so the capacity to absorb currency fluctuation will be robust.
We're running into a similar situation in our campaign. Early on we helped clear a salt mine of goblin occupants so mining could begin. Then war happened, and the mine sits idle. We brokered a deal with the merchant owning the mine (my character has a small share in the mine) to use Stone Shape to extract a ton of salt and deliver it to a nearby city (thanks to Shrink Item and Phantom Steed). Salt is 5gp per pound (or roughly as valuable as silver).
We were very worried about devaluing salt, so our GM looked up average salt consumption in the Middle Ages. Turns out it was in the order of several pounds of salt per person per annum (as salting food was one of the only ways to preserve it). That city was pretty big, with 70,000 people, so it needed somewhere in the order of 200,000lbs of salt every year. Our one ton of salt was a little over 1% of its annual needs.
The point I'm trying to make here is that economies are bigger than you might think. No, a village can't absorb 10,000gp. But, when you're talking about a gold mine, you're not going to really affect the economy of the country it's in - other than a slight increase in general affluence. The economy grows, so do imports because of it, and slowly the gold gets bled out of the country.
maouse |
Well, in Bloodsworn Vale there are up to 24k/yr Adamantine mines... Its amazing what a Lyre of Building can do in a 16 hour spree of playing... Who needs minions? Who needs Rebellion? Make a once a week journey to the mine and play until your endurance runs out. CHA-CHING! Of course, after about the first time doing this the guardians are going to notice (wether that be the competition, monsters, or the King who you are essentially stealing from). All in all, in my party's instance, the deal was one day of playing in return for setting up the roads to it (and subsequent bridges) so it could be turned over to the king as a "set up mine site." Replete with out buildings for workers.
Fleshgrinder |
Fleshgrinder wrote:More gold into the local economy means each gold piece is worth less.It takes a LOT of gold to do this. We're talking on the level of the Spanish taking the central americans for all their gold. The default setting is basically already ridiculously gold-abundant, so the capacity to absorb currency fluctuation will be robust.
It doesn't take as much as you'd think. Mansa Musa, an old emperor of Mali, was notorious for destroying local economies every time he did a pilgrimage to Mecca. He even had enough gold to mess up the Venician economy.
That was one ruler with access to the gold mines from one region.
Gnomezrule |
I respect your groups out of character commitment to game balance, but it begins from a premise that is metagaming. You have the money that really should be the GM's problem.
First guards, wages, materials needed to keep the mine going, issues among the kobold tribes, fleeing Kobolds returning as informants for much beefier foes, getting the gold to foundry and then to where it functions in the economy all cost money. A huge bit of any gold that comes out is going to be needed to keep it opperational.
Second, becareful I am not sure worshiping Tiamat equals dragons won't be after you. Especially being that even religious Kobolds are slaves and or snack foods.
Third, I would recommend a cause or endeavor that would require ridiculous money to fund. Let them bank roll something far away, a war, building a temple or whatever but make it far enough away that it is not able to be turned into tremendous power or wealth in the scope of the campaign.
Helic |
It doesn't take as much as you'd think. Mansa Musa, an old emperor of Mali, was notorious for destroying local economies every time he did a pilgrimage to Mecca. He even had enough gold to mess up the Venician economy.
Having just wiki'd said king, yeah, that guy WAS in the level of the Spanish taking the gold from the Central Americans. 12,000 4lb bars of gold (12,000 x 4 x 50 = 2,400,000gp) plus 80 camels with 50-300lbs of gold each. Let's assume 150lbs of gold per camel, that's 80x150x50 = 600,000gp. So this guy was walking in with 3,000,000gp and blowing it all on the spot (or rather, along the route).
I guess it really depends how much gold per year they can get out of the mine. One ton (2200lbs) is 110,000gp worth.
Nemal |
I respect your groups out of character commitment to game balance, but it begins from a premise that is metagaming. You have the money that really should be the GM's problem.
Yes. Yes, we -are- metagaming. That's kind of the point.
The DM trusts that we won't abuse the resources, which is why we even -get- the resources. We don't break the trust, he gets to keep his balance, and we get to mess around with silly, foolish plans that make no sense nor a non-metagame, optimize-for-your-life game style.
Apparatus of the Crab, I'm looking at you!
A huge bit of any gold that comes out is going to be needed to keep it opperational.
Yeah, but we're also getting a big chunk of profits ATM as well.
Second, becareful I am not sure worshiping Tiamat equals dragons won't be after you. Especially being that even religious Kobolds are slaves and or snack foods.
Oh, no, we're not -buddies- or anything. Just, we have a higher chance than usual of actually engaging chromatic dragons at diplomacy rather than having to apply sword to face, and we have no problem with having to pay a substantial tribute if it comes to that.
Let them bank roll something far away, a war, building a temple or whatever but make it far enough away that it is not able to be turned into tremendous power or wealth in the scope of the campaign.
Ooo, big temple! That could be badass.
Meshakhad |
Your first priority should be to keep the mine going. Don't skimp on operating costs. Make sure you pay your kobold workers handsomely. And get some g&@@*$n guards there so another bunch of adventurers doesn't wipe out your workforce.
In fact, I would agree with the others and turn the mine into your stronghold. Build a fortress above ground. Have every party member take Leadership. And invest in scrolls of teleport so you can get back there in a hurry.
After that... I don't actually see any reason why you shouldn't spend some money on stat-boosting items. When my group ran Kingmaker (where we actually did end up getting a kobold-operated gold mine), we were able to strike a balance between keeping our nation going and equipping the party. We ended up a fairly well-equipped party ruling a fantastically wealthy nation. Remember, those magic items directly impact your ability to fight, win, and acquire MORE income.
SilvyrDreams |
You want to be truly evil and make your money into more? Start a bank lol. Also hire a bunch of artisan jewelers to make fancy jewelry, to sell for more then the base gold is worth. Royalty always wants fancy crap, oh yes I want a jeweled encrusted bla bla bla with my family crest money is no object just do a good job. That or maybe start a new country, the skys the limit have fun.
DeathQuaker RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8 |
Since it's supposed to stay secret, my suggestion isn't much good, but for the record...
_I_ would build a town around the mine, replace the kobold workers with normal humanoid workers who are paid a low wage (I would keep kissing up to the kobold priest of Tiamat and treat his people well, not use them as free labor), and start treating the whole mine as a source of industry. It doesn't have to be a big town, but one that houses the labor, is defensible, and can attract other people to come and trade and be further sources of revenue. Use the further gold earned to buy more land and local industries, until anyone in the nation trying to piss you off will find themselves having little to no power to deal with you. Saving some gold for dragon bribes also a good idea.
OTOH, playing Medieval Corporate Overlord might be boring, but I kind of like the idea.
TimD |
Drop some money with the Assassin's Guild as a pre-payment to avenge anyone who comes along to kill you and take your stuff.
Ditto with some friendly temples far, far away for ressurection / true ressurection purposes for if / when you need it. Maybe some body parts & regeneration casting so that that it's cheaper when the time comes.
Map the area very well and stash some of the gold so that when you're forced to give up the area by a big bad later you can sell the map and evidence to some other idiot adventurers or a Thieves' Guild.
Finance bolt holes & security for them all over the place so that if you're ever on the run, you have somewhere relatively safe to hole up. If you have truly dumb amounts of money, make sure about 1 in 3 is a horrific trap that will let you keep the stuff of whatever tripped it (because as the WBL tables clearly show us, PCs have the best loot). :)
-TimD
Mertan |
So this is where you've been getting the ideas huh? hehehe
He is right, using the money for fluffy RP things or consumables etc, will make this whole, the party has a mine thing go a lot more smoothly than spending the income in weaponry or magical items. The mine was put there as a roleplaying incentive not as a dress up your fighter machine.
Some very nice suggestions btw. I say they need a flying carpet.
Nemal |
This is tangential, but I'm just curious. What did you determine was the mine's yield, and how did you and your DM come to that number?
So far, the yield's mostly been determined by the number of workers available. The more kobolds we get, the greater the mine's output.
There's diminishing returns and there's probably a cap, but we started getting 6000g a month from it, and are now up to 10000. (This is after substracting the costs of running the mine). It probably goes a lot higher.
As to how the DM came up with the number, I'm fairly sure he just pulled it out of the air.
Zerombr |
gold mines are a long term source of wealth, short term, not so much! Even if your kobolds are slave labor, there's food, security, overseers, cart repair, monster elimination, nobles who want their share, claim jumpers, economic inflation, minting process and smelting charges, hangers on, and crooked accountants.
Better to be VERY safe on this matter and invest in mine security more than anything else, and leave it the heck alone.
On the bright side, it'll have several quests attached to it, most likely.
Nemal |
Haha, yeah. We started out clearing gryphons; our next step is to pay tribute to a (brainwashed) dragon to help provide security.
As to the other stuff, they've been mostly dealt with! There are few monsters left in the area, and most of those work for us; we have investors helping pay for the up-front costs (and a Lyre of Building, immensely useful), the land we found the mine on was claimed by no one (there's a human settlement a few days away from it, but it's a backwater city with no powerful NPCs of note)...
Problems keep cropping up, but we're on top of things so far! We recently partnered with a former employer who has a gem mine to sell jewelry rather than gold bars / doubloons.
Still waiting for the other shoe to drop :P
Trayce |
Basicly, invest in stuff your DM can use for further stories. A flying carpet is one idea, but I'd go a step further: why not build an airship, complete with cabins and crew so you have a mobile home to adventure from? Sky pirates has always been one of my personal D&D fantasies :p. Not sure if there are rules specifically for this though, it might be up to GM discretion...
Portals and wondrous items might be a good place to skim too. A lot of them have very little to do with combat.
Nemal |
Why do you need the kobold miners in the first place. THe thing is have you ever heard ofn hydraulic mining you could wash away an entire hillside with the decanter of endless water Although this will likely lead to conflict with druids.
Hmm...
Mostly because while I've learned a lot about modern mining methods, my character hasn't.
And we -are- using hydraulic mining; we're using an actual river for it, though. And cyanide + acid (provided by the kobold priest's acid breath, hilariously) for the processing...
Which isn't to say we aren't having a problem with druids already! The last one came and dive-bombed us with ice storms. I swear we're becoming eco friendly if only because if we don't we keep losing minions. ¬¬