GOOD is generally considered to be somewhat accepting and forgiving.
the GOOD side would rather talk through their issues than war over them, they would rather redeem an evil than destroy them.
so why then are there so many examples of Fallen goodness but little or no examples of risen evil.
There are examples of the bad guy rising to become the good guy in lots of stories. Like Borimier from LotR who's goal was to get the ring. Han Solo who was a murderer, Pirate, and smuggler in the original Star Wars. How about the movie Willow with scoundrel Mad Mardigan and the evil Queens daughter who rise up to take on the evil queen. The movie Serenity has the bad guy in that movie rise up above what the monster he thought he was. Lots of example of people rising above evil.
GOOD is generally considered to be somewhat accepting and forgiving.
the GOOD side would rather talk through their issues than war over them, they would rather redeem an evil than destroy them.
so why then are there so many examples of Fallen goodness but little or no examples of risen evil.
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Tangent-
I never thought of Boromir as evil. The worst he did to Frodo was trying to grab him. He was doing what he thought was his duty to his father, country, and people. He was quite troubled before he died too. Sean Bean was my favorite actor in second half of fellowship. I do completely agree with your point of his redemption though.
It's up to the PCs and the GM to come to redemption plot lines.
In my Kingmaker campaign, my Paladin has succeeded in converting 4 bandits from 3 different encounters and they have since become valued NPCs. (sadly, many of their comrades were tried and hanged for banditry)
MAKE examples of redeemed evil in your own stories.
OK, good points but Im sorry let me be more clear.
I am not so much talking about bad people becoming good. that happens all the time.
I am talking about evil outsiders, devils, daemons, demons, and the like becoming good aligned. an opposite effect of the fallen angel type Good outsider becoming EVIL.
I kind of left out my examples because I got sidetracked.
GOOD is generally considered to be somewhat accepting and forgiving.
the GOOD side would rather talk through their issues than war over them, they would rather redeem an evil than destroy them.
so why then are there so many examples of Fallen goodness but little or no examples of risen evil.
1)Mostly because being a GOOD person is supposed to be hard, it is the way of personal sacrifice and burden with little reward.
2)Evil is easy and selfish, though most people do not have the capacity to be entirely remorseless a life of hardship can easily turn one bitter and ruthless.
3)The 'GOOD' side often just means the not evil side.
4)People in general are judgemental and wary they are not about to give people that done despicable things another chance, much like in real life.
OK.
sorry.
Let me be more clear.
I am not so much talking about bad people becoming good. that happens all the time.
I am talking about evil outsiders, devils, daemons, demons, and the like becoming good aligned. an opposite effect of the fallen angel type Good outsider becoming EVIL.
oh right, I suppose it touches on GOOD being hard discounting one self for the benefit of others.
evil is an easy path to follow, basically selfish and tempting you always with promises of more..
Redemption is something associated with something that once was good, which evil outsiders in general never were, also the biblical fallen angel is meant to keep people on their toes and ever wary of sin, falling from grace, talk about redemption of the purest of evils would lessen the evil which is needed to have virtue shine more brightly.
Ahh those types have very little chance of redemption. Re meaning again or once more.
You can't re something that never was.
I know it mentions under the Asura section that sometimes they redeem themselves and become hunted by their fellow asuras.
Well, when dealing with mortals, it's easy, because the game presupposes free will -- and, further, that even in the heart of the most good individual there lies the capacity to do evil (and vice-versa).
When dealing with outsiders, things change -- many of them aren't just more powerful mortals -- they're the very embodiment of some ideal of evil or good. As such, there's not supposed to be any darkness (or light) within them.
That would mean that any shift from the norm for outsiders should probably have some sort of external trigger (something that's not necessarily true of mortals) -- the celestial being would need to be corrupted by an outside force, or likely guided (or tricked) into embracing the law/chaos part of itself over the good/evil, and thus (for instance) performing a lawful, but evil act. Once they take that act, there's a little piece of darkness (or light) within them, and then the fall can begin.
Now, having said that, I've certainly, as a GM, had fiends trying to "redeem" themselves in my cosmologies -- though many of them were corrupted good creatures to start with. Probably the most notable of those that wasn't something trying to un-fall, as it were, was a demon who could not understand a paladin's willingness to sacrifice himself willingly to save the soul of another - and so he literally kept the paladin as a toy and talked to him while torturing him (originally demanding to know why he would do it, and why he wouldn't break) -- and over the course of decades came to "see" the idea of good, and ultimately strove to live up to the paladin's ideals.
I would, however, say that one of the reasons (beyond the fact that it's a common story element -- especially when dealing with PCs who are the force of good) that we see a lot more fallen good than we do "raised" evil is because -- at the very core of it -- you have a disparity in how an outsider who's "falling" is treated.
A celestial-type succumbing to darkness is considered sad, tragic, and other angels will (most likely) want to lead it back to the path of good, because good believes in redemption.
A fiendish-type wanting to rise above the evil is considered weak, foolish, stupid, and other fiends will (most likely) want to punish or destroy the freak, because evil doesn't.
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Akiros from Kingmaker is a good example of a "risen evil," but the basic premise is that it's much easier to fall from goodness than it is to rise from evil.
I'd say 3.5's Eludecia is a good example of a redeemed evil creature. She's technically non-canon according to WotC, but she's close enough, since they put her in a module, IIRC.
In general though, it's more useful to design evil creatures than good creatures, since a typical adventuring party will fight them more. So when you want your players to fight things with typical angel qualities, you pit them against Erinyes, which are devils (but descended from fallen angels or something).
I am talking about evil outsiders, devils, daemons, demons, and the like becoming good aligned. an opposite effect of the fallen angel type Good outsider becoming EVIL.
If they started to turn, their peers would destroy them. Hence they will be even rarer than fallen angels.
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Tangent-
I never thought of Boromir as evil. The worst he did to Frodo was trying to grab him. He was doing what he thought was his duty to his father, country, and people. He was quite troubled before he died too.
And of course he WAS being manipulated by the Ring itself which had the genius and malice of Sauron within it. Now that's the classic example of how to build an intelligent item without the slightest bit of dialogue with it.
It's also why the truly powerful and wise kept themselves from touching it at all. In other words your total character level would add to the DC of resisting it's corruptive allure. That's was part of the advantage of the Hobbits themselves being relatively low-levels.
The choice (destiny) of Hobbits coming into possession of the Ring is the hidden cycle of good (the ring is the cycle of evil). The original encounter with the ring was so scarring to the progenitor River Folk, that the hobbits developed a strong tradition of reverse-gifting, and thus a limited attachment to possessions. For this reason, the ring could have little hold on them as an object of power; the ring itself had caused objects to become valueless (the other half of its power - worldly power - has little effect on the hobbits for a similar reason: the hobbits have no need for power to begin with, this is the sense you mention above).
If anyone read The Worldwound Gambit, that story tells of a band of thieves, thugs, burglars, and miscreants rising to save Mendev from an a new Demonlord for the forces of good.
Actually, the main reason behind their actions is revenge, and that demons are bad for business.
I'd say that Elric is the most well-known character who tries to redeem himself.
GOOD is generally considered to be somewhat accepting and forgiving.
the GOOD side would rather talk through their issues than war over them, they would rather redeem an evil than destroy them.
so why then are there so many examples of Fallen goodness but little or no examples of risen evil.
It is easier to give into temptation than it is to be good. Good by its nature is the more difficult route.
A creature also has to want to be good. You can talk until you are blue in the face, but if the evil does not mind things the way they are, or just don't want to change then it won't matter.
A devil, for example, is a creature literally made of Evil (with a capital E) and Law. An Archon, is a creature made from Law and Good. We know that when a demon or devil becomes more powerful, it transforms into a "higher" type.
I suggest that the form an outsider takes depends on the concentration of the Good/Evil/Law/Chaos that composes it.
So, if a devil became good, it would, by definition, be an Archon. Depending on how you see Good and Evil interacting (that is, is the devil's essence transmuted or replaced) it would either become an equivalently-ranked Archon or a Lantern archon.
The devil might also become a new type of archon. There is some evidence for this view as erinyeses are in fact fallen angels.
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That's one way of looking at it but I have seen risen devils and demons before. They are rare but it follows that form does not necessarily follow alignment. You can have redeemed pit fiends, it can happen but if it did the creature will still radiate evil and law (as well as its other alignments).
In fact if you had a risen succubus paladin she would actually radiate Chaos, Evil, Good and Law if detected for.
I think that whether a devil becomes an archon or not depends on the specific metaphysics the GM is using and/or what makes a cooler story :)
From a coolness perspective, I personally like the succubus paladin that radiates all the auras. It would make for an amusing character.
From a metaphysics perspective, alignment sub-types only make sense to me if changing your alignment changed your sub-type.
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I think that whether a devil becomes an archon or not depends on the specific metaphysics the GM is using and/or what makes a cooler story :)
From a coolness perspective, I personally like the succubus paladin that radiates all the auras. It would make for an amusing character.
From a metaphysics perspective, alignment sub-types only make sense to me if changing your alignment changed your sub-type.
Totally agree.
GOOD is generally considered to be somewhat accepting and forgiving.
the GOOD side would rather talk through their issues than war over them, they would rather redeem an evil than destroy them.
so why then are there so many examples of Fallen goodness but little or no examples of risen evil.
That not always true. Good doesn't mean everyone is a therapist.
Example:
"Against my people's enemies I will show no mercy. I will not allow their surrender, execpt to extract information. I will defeat them, and I will scatter their families. Yet even in the struggle against our enemies, I will act in a way that brings honor to Torag."
Torag has the best paladins, but not the most merciful.
I'm throwing in the chance for players to redeem an evil commander on the run, next game. Think Theon Greyjoy, if he had the sense to run.
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A devil, for example, is a creature literally made of Evil (with a capital E) and Law. An Archon, is a creature made from Law and Good.The devil might also become a new type of archon. ...There is some evidence for this view as erinyeses are in fact fallen angels.
but thats exactly what i am saying. there is NO evil becoming good creature such as a succubus who becomes chaste and joins the angelic ranks.
one can say that angels are literally made of Good with a capital G. so how can they fall? one can also say that if shadow angels or erineys are now EVIL then they could be RE-deamed
its just an interesting thought. how would such a creature be portrayed. how would their abilities change?
what would such a creature look like. fallen angels keep their general form. would a redeemed evil still have bat wings and horns but their claws would turn to hands and they would be surrounded by a glowing light? even a single unique evil, for example a horned devil so awed by sarenraes power that it begs for her forgiveness and tries to emulate her even to the point of becoming truely Good one of her most reliable followers and proof that all enemies posses the possibility of reform.
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On the matter of risen fiends, I'm with Adriel and Origen.
It's rare but possible. Otherwise, Good is pretty damn impotent at doing actual Good. And I'll leave that hopeless grimdark to Warhams.
As for canon risen fiends earlier in the game, Planescape touched on the subject long before the succubus paladin, so there's support out there for the groups that want it.
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I suppose its because of difficulty. The metaphor of "falling" is actually a very good one. Imagine standing atop a very high ledge. Physically, it is ridiculously easy to fall (i.e., step or trip off), but to climb back up is nigh-on impossible.
For a good outsider to become evil, they'd need to resort to or be tempted by evil power, which is surprisingly easy, because good is so often faced by Morton Forks that force them towards darkness, such as the angel who first penned the Book of the Damned (I mean, who really expects a guy told to document and research the truth of the Lower Planes to come away from it utterly unchanged).
Evil outsiders, on the other hand, are perfectly happy in their role. To continue living as they are is easy, safe, and beneficial. To try and claw their way up to goodness is counterintuitive AS WELL as being difficult. There's so little temptation for good when evil provides all of the necessary answers. And say they have a Morton Fork...well, who cares? So what if both options are bad? You are fundamentally bad? Pick whichever option on a whim and all is well. Try and be good, though, and all you've got is a headache.
Obviously, certain exceptions can exist, but they are SO incredibly remote that it might as well not matter. Plus, here's the kick, most of the "fallen angels" were kidnapped and forced into darkness (actively corrupted). Fiends love doing this, as it gives them pleasure and a sense of power (an alignment rape, if you will). But celestials don't necessarily take pleasure from redeeming something evil per se. They just wish to eliminate evil. Since redemption is dangerous and most often failed, they usually don't bother to try. And the act of kidnapping a creature to force an alignment change, no matter to what, is a sketchy action at best, so of course celestials wouldn't try a "redemption at gunpoint" approach. That's why erinyes exist, because this kind of thing is frequently done. On the other hand, there are only isolated incidents of the opposite occurring, and they don't usually live long enough to change into something else.
A devil, for example, is a creature literally made of Evil (with a capital E) and Law. An Archon, is a creature made from Law and Good.The devil might also become a new type of archon. ...There is some evidence for this view as erinyeses are in fact fallen angels.but thats exactly what i am saying. there is NO evil becoming good creature such as a succubus who becomes chaste and joins the angelic ranks.
How do you know? Would they advertise it if they did? Hell no!
Just because you do not know of any examples does not mean that it does not occur.
That's an excellent example Mikaze! That supports the idea that form follows alignment, since Ragathiel is described as a "depicted as a great five-winged being." Sounds goodly to me :)
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Basically it starts off as an advice thread on EN World, about what to do about a Succubus...
FIRST POST IN GENERAL DISCUSSION- SOMETIME IN NOVEMBER 2001]
I have an interesting moral dilemma currently occurring in my game, both from an in-character and a meta- perspective.
One of the PCs, a 14th level Paladin, the prized possession of its player for 10 years or so (he was converted from 2E), is currently attempting to CONVERT a succubus, and demonstrate to her the error of her ways.
The demoness, sent as an envoy from a certain fiend whom the Paladin had previously offended, was charged with the mission of corrupting the character.Now, the Paladin is your typical high-chivalry pageants-and-tourneys type, embodying the ideals of courtly life. He is fair-minded, just, merciful, chaste and so forth.
The Demoness, warded by an amulet of undetectable alignment, has insinuated herself into the retinue of a certain Duchess, posing as the daughter of a minor noble with a fine pedigree, with various letters of recommendation. She has been posing as a guileless, naiive and hugely compassionate handmaiden who is strikingly beautiful. The Paladin was instantly smitten -in a chaste way, of course- and has been carrying her token while he jousts.
Having sought her out (and she proved very elusive), the Paladin has been recently courting her, and spending much time with her (reciting poetry, singing ballads etc.- he has a very fair perform skill). To his delight, he has found the lady to be highly intelligent, well-versed in metaphysics and deeply spiritual. They have spent many hours engaged in wide-ranging philosophical debate and found that they only differed in their opinions on a few minor points (heheheh...)
However, in the last session, following leads that our hero might be being duped, the deception was revealed. The Paladin drew his weapon and prepared to smite the evil thing.
The demoness sat demurely and began to weep, begging for his mercy and saying yes she had been sent here to corrupt him and yes that was her original intention but that he'd begun to CHANGE her, and if only he'd give her a chance that she'd prove that she'd overcome her evil ways.
The Paladin, to his credit, didn't buy any of that and thought it was a crock. He raised his sword again, preparing to send her back to the Abyss, expecting her to retaliate. Still, she sat, motionless, and lowered her head.
Suddenly, the Player was overcome with doubt. What if she IS redeemable? Are demons forever damned? Is there an ounce of potential for her to be anything other than Chaotic Evil - after all demons DEFINE what evil is. And now, another dilemma besets him: if he kills her, here, in cold blood with this doubt in his mind has she WON? Does the very act of slaying her WHILE HE HAS DOUBTS mean that he has contravened his alignment, and is corrupted?
Opinions, please.
In any case, that's just where the story BEGINS. It's my favorite story involving paladins, redemption, a hippy druid, a party guy bard and a morally ambiguous wizard with a touch of the far planes to him.
Suffice to say there's a lot of complex issues that come from trying to redeem pure evil.
Tangent-
I never thought of Boromir as evil. The worst he did to Frodo was trying to grab him. He was doing what he thought was his duty to his father, country, and people. He was quite troubled before he died too. Sean Bean was my favorite actor in second half of fellowship. I do completely agree with your point of his redemption though.
There are a lot of evil people who were just doing what they thought was right for their family or their country. Whole regimes, in real life, were built around this concept. You see your entire country struggling and think "if I could just murder all the _ then we could all live in peace."
The key word being "murder"
Now you could say "destroy," or "remove" but you know what the end result would be. And that's just it. Good guys never put others at risk for their own needs. In this case Borimir had something to prove; that he could be the hero of his people and worthy of his father's respect. That was HIS need. He put that ahead of the mission and took matters into his own hands.
Putting others ahead of ourselves is what makes ordinary men and women into heroes. I don't just mean when its easy or obvious. Every good piece of literature has a moment where giving of oneself, the "heroic sacrifice" must occur. Now translate that to our own, real lives. How many of us, if we had 18 strengths, mighty swords, and mad fighting skills, would actually LISTEN to Gandalf when he said no mortal should wield the ring and it should be destroyed?
I know in my own personal journey this comes up daily.
But here's the other thing about evil: its easy. Its easier for Borimir to listen to daddy than to risk disappointing him and thousands of his countrymen. Its EASIER to just go and murder a dozen goblins in our games 'cause they're monsters.
And redemption, as the OP is looking for in these games is not that easy. Being good takes work, dedication, sacrifice. If you slip up it becomes twice as hard to make it back into the light.
Being a hero isn't just about doing what's right. It's about doing it, even when its hard. The hard, is what makes it great.
Personally, I LOVE heroes. I love redeemed ones more. On the rare occasion I play these days as opposed to running, I always try to roleplay heroism. We walked into a town a few months ago and we were all set with our lists of gear to buy, me included. I'd finally saved up enough to put disruption on my hammer. As we entered the town my GM dropped a short little one sentence blurb about how subdued the place was and a forlorn looking kid in the market place.
I nosed around. The GM wasn't really prepared and said that the local orphanage was run by a mean old dude. I proceeded to pull together a 20 minute RP tangent (LG cleric of Abadar). He wouldn't budge on the fact that these brats got what they deserved for being cheats and thieves (which was true; the kids were bad).
Rather than intimidate or attack, I used diplomacy. I rolled ridiculously high; total was 28 and the GM gave me a +2 for good roleplay. The guy finally relented and explained it was all his fault; he was desparate. Sense motive confirmed he wasn't lying, so I pressed him. Turns out he was using the kids to scrounge stuff for him and the other orphans since the local troubles with the goblins cut off a lot of the town's resources.
Without missing a beat I handed over hundreds of gold. I also mentioned a dwarf NPC we'd met in a previous game that was a mason; since part of the building was falling down, maybe the dwarf would do some good work at reasonable prices. I then promised that the church would help find apprenticeships for some of the kids so that they could better themselves.
Our main villain is a necromancer; a hammer of disruption would go a LONG way toward making this an easier game and I've been after it as one of my character's stated goals since creation. But if people need your help, and you are capable of helping, you do it, and you do it for them, not you.
OK, good points but Im sorry let me be more clear.
I am not so much talking about bad people becoming good. that happens all the time.
I am talking about evil outsiders, devils, daemons, demons, and the like becoming good aligned. an opposite effect of the fallen angel type Good outsider becoming EVIL.
I kind of left out my examples because I got sidetracked.
I think that's because, in general, these kinds of creatures are not so much individuals, as they are incarnations of certain concepts. Demons are the embodiment of Chaotic Evil, so redeeming one doesn't necessarily make sense in that context. They aren't evil, they are Evil. If that makes sense.
Of course, plenty settings throws this on its head, either for good reason or 'just to be different'. For example, Fall-From-Grace is a good-aligned Succubus in Planescape: Torment.
In the end, how definite a creature's subtype really is, is setting-specific. But I believe the default assumption is that if your subtype is, say, Evil, there's no redeeming that. It's your very essence.
{good stuff}
In our CotCT game, the PCs are trapped in Old Korvosa as the plague ravages it. We've all got the Heal skill, and we converted a fencing academy into a makeshift hospital, scrounged beds from local inns, recruited volunteers and basically did good things.
As for canon risen fiends earlier in the game, Planescape touched on the subject long before the succubus paladin, so there's support out there for the groups that want it.
Of course, plenty settings throws this on its head, either for good reason or 'just to be different'. For example, Fall-From-Grace is a good-aligned Succubus in Planescape: Torment.
And Lawful at that. I was about to post my disappointment for her lack of mention, thanks for saving me that =)
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That's an excellent example Mikaze! That supports the idea that form follows alignment, since Ragathiel is described as a "depicted as a great five-winged being." Sounds goodly to me :)
I'd like to have him(and other risen fiends) keeping some fiendish aspects from their origins though, for a lot of reasons. InVinoVeritas had a very neat explanation for his five wings along those lines.
Thoughts about Ragathiel:
Ragathiel is described as having five wings, and is the son of Dispater. The standard (historical) appearance of the Seraphim were as angels having six wings: two for flight, two to cover the face, and two to cover the feet. I imagine that Ragathiel had six wings, but lost the one covering his left foot.
His left foot is shown to be a cloven hoof.
That was pretty much a Gygax trope as well in his Gord novels. In fact Good as useless or pretty damm near useless, is pretty much a staple of the sword and sorcery genre. It's usually up to the protagonist who's more of an Anti-Hero, to save the day. Death's Heretic, come to think of it, strikes me as cast in that mode as well.On the matter of risen fiends, I'm with Adriel and Origen.
It's rare but possible. Otherwise, Good is pretty damn impotent at doing actual Good. And I'll leave that hopeless grimdark to Warhams.
That's fine for those works. But in no way should they bind everyone else involved with or playing the game like some sort of narrative law. Not everyone wants misery porn 24/7. The game supports more than cynical sword and sorcery, and has for a long time.
Some folks like having actual Good good in their games. Some people like having actual hope in their stories, even if the characters have to punch it down the settings' throats at times.
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{good stuff}In our CotCT game, the PCs are trapped in Old Korvosa as the plague ravages it. We've all got the Heal skill, and we converted a fencing academy into a makeshift hospital, scrounged beds from local inns, recruited volunteers and basically did good things.
CotCT seems to have a knack for bringing this out of groups that I've seen.
CotCT seems to have a knack for bringing this out of groups that I've seen.{good stuff}In our CotCT game, the PCs are trapped in Old Korvosa as the plague ravages it. We've all got the Heal skill, and we converted a fencing academy into a makeshift hospital, scrounged beds from local inns, recruited volunteers and basically did good things.
Nifty! Our group does contain a paladin, a monk of Irori (LG), an oracle of Desna (CG) ...oh, and a half-orc magus, but he's the less than nice guy, or so he keep telling us.
I din't know about Ragathiel's hoof. Heck I didn't know about Ragathiel until today :p Cool stuff :)
Also, about Warhammer and "misery porn." Sometimes you can have the greatest good only amid the deepest darkness. For example: Ciaphas Cain is fundamentally a good guy. He lives in a world that is actively hostile to being good but he tries to help his fellows. I think that can be more admirable then being good in a world where the good guys always win :)
@ the Jeff: Once more...INTO THE BREACH!
Another moment of heroism is the NOT GIVING UP moment. Odds are against you, under a pile of rubble, while the fiend laughs mercilessly at your torment...but then...movement, your hand twitches. "WHHAATT???!!!" the fiend blurts as, with herculean effort you pry yourself up out of the debris. With a hoarse voice you whisper "not...yet monster;...I'm not...dead...yet!"
Ok, I know this isn't EXACTLY what you're talking about but it hearkens back to my earlier post. Evil is easy. Evil is giving in, knuckling under. Oh sure, people learn from their mistakes, but also a lot of people just simply lose hope, stop trying; what's the point?
The point is very simple for the truly good, the truly heroic: somewhere out there, there's a bad man and he's going to hurt a lot of people. As long as I have breath left, I'm going to continue to fight to see this doesn't happen; not on my watch.
As for the evil MONSTERS of the fantasy world being turned to good: honestly I never read the Gord novels and never played Planescape. That being said I did once try to convince a demon prince in character to see the error of his ways; he didn't buy it.
Honestly though I'm sure it's possible. In another thread where I was lamenting my decision to allow an evil necromancer into a party w/a paladin a poster gave me some interesting advice. He said something to the effect that if evil can have demons and vampires basking in their malevolence good should have just such a shining and glorious presence as well.
Of course he went on to say an angel should appear and railroad the necromancer into either being condemmed by all good or accept redemption at once. I didn't think that was very "good" so I chose not to go that route.
The point's valid though; if a demon could spend hours a day for centuries, slowly driving an angel insane and ultimately into corruption and a Fall, why then couldn't an angel visit a fiend in the pit every day for a century at which point the demon is redeemed and spares the one flower growing in the abyss from total destruction, thus ejecting it to the material plane?
The demon would just get annoyed and more upset for such visit which does not help him become good.
The angel who is good will also be angered by the visits, and that will help him to become evil.
Changing people/creatures to evil, and changing them to good is entirely different. People often need a good reason to do the right thing. The desire to want to be good also helps. They often only need a convenient excuse to do the wrong thing.
What it takes to be turned away from your plane is GM material. One act of kindness I doubt is enough. If you change at the very core of who you are to the point where you are no longer chaotic or evil then your fellow demons will most likely notice, and either kill you for your weakness or at least push you out.
The point's valid though; if a demon could spend hours a day for centuries, slowly driving an angel insane and ultimately into corruption and a Fall, why then couldn't an angel visit a fiend in the pit every day for a century at which point the demon is redeemed...
It's not that this couldn't happen, it's just that it's so unlikely IMO, and here's why:
LE and LG are very similar IMO. I think they embody the christian concept of Satan vs God. While many might disagree with me, they both eternally seek for the same thing, which is the lawful order of mankind. The polarity occurs when you consider their methods of enacting such an ideal.
LG encourages order by appealing to the idea that true progress toward lawful behavior can only be accomplished through freedom (agency). This means that goodness must tolerate (to a point) every other kind of behavior (chaotic, evil, neutral, ETC) because they expect progress toward internal government, abstaining from all things evil. Another assumption here is that the desire for those around you to be lawful is a pure one, void of any desire for personal gain. Good behavior is not very gratifying (which is one reason why it's harder to convert someone to good). The assumption is that there is a reward waiting for you at some unspecified time. In a world where so many beings are immortal and/or live forever, this seems even farther away.
LE does not encourage, it compels. They compel sentient beings to fit in their lawful society, ultimately benefiting giving power to the leader. This is made manifest in slavery, contracts, blackmail, and other ways. The fundamental difference here is that external government removes any necessity for internal government. Evil behavior is very appealing, as it provides instant gratification, because you can force a behavior to achieve your desired outcome.
In either type of society, the outcome will be similar:
1. Hard working
2. Productive
3. Adhere to a strict code of a conduct
the contrast is drawn here:
1. Agency vs Force
2. Virtue vs Vice
3. Selfish vs Selfless behavior
Anyway, the reason why proselytism is harder for LG is because they cannot force behavior, only convince. Once you fall under the influence of LE behavior, they will compel you to their will, one way or the other.
Also do not think that there is any such thing as a sentient being, capable of reason, who is the "embodiment" of evil or chaos. The capability to reason automatically gives ANY creature, devil, demon, angel, or archon the ability to choose a course of action which they feel is best. While it's not likely, I think any creature who fits that criteria has the capability of changing.
This is my opinion, and is not in agreement with a lot of official game design text.
Ok, I get that turning evil to good is both a longshot and 2 different processes, but who cares. Has anyone ever ACTUALLY tried it in game as a player?
I referenced trying to dissuade a demon prince in character. Lord Arioch (a homebrew prince stolen from the Elric series) was slowly corrupting my fellow adventurers. First I appealed to him in character and explained that by pursuing this course of evil he would only inspire more good - this earned me a beat down to 1 hp (back in 1e days). Then I tried to appeal to my comrades; I was teleported into stasis in mid-air 100' above the tallest tower and encircled by hungry wyverns.
In this game at the end it came down to one fight, me vs him, with an artifact sword in my hands. And as was typical with the dark-minded GM it hinged on one roll; not an attack or a damage roll (I had him beat down thoroughly!) but rather a saving throw. A save vs Death, my WORST save. No bonuses, no buffs; just a STRAIGHT roll. Of course, I failed.
You talk about our characters being the folks that SURVIVE the fiend? Oh I survived all right, but it was a dark world, and a dark GM. I was catapulted 1000 years into the future, a future where my actions were futile and meaningless. Arioch was slain but also caused a chain reaction that turned my elven character's home forest kingdom, complete with her WHOLE noble family she was trying to save, to ash. A great desert was left to mark my shame.
I also doomed the few surviving elves to centuries of prejudice bordering on genocide as I and my kind were blamed for that moment and almost every ensuing calamity since.
Needless to say, I was...nonplussed with the end of the campaign.
In another campaign with a different GM I went toe-to-toe with Babba Yagga. In the midst of the fight she monologued that the reason she was using the hut was to imprint herself on all the places she visited and also that the hut will keep her alive forever. I actually stopped mid-fight to answer her.
My character was a halfling with TONS of craft skills. I showed her my maul and said that I made it with my own hands; long after I'm gone it will endure. It's easy to destroy or corrupt. True longievity, true immortality comes from making something that will last and provide a legacy. I then went on further to describe my crush on the priestess of yondalla from earlier in the campaign and that someday we'd be married. Long after I was dead my name would continue on the lips and hearts of my descendents gods willing. I thought it was a really moving speech to try and sway her to quit her predations.
She responded with a confusion spell that I failed the save on and almost killed the summoner in our party.
Still in all, I've never backed down from such roleplaying opportunities and I never will, regardless of 2 epic fails. I'm hoping at one point one of my GM's will allow one of my speeches to put a crack in a villain's heart. I'm not saying I get total redemption with one chat, but I would've loved for the witch to have hesitated, just for a second, and said that she actually considered my words.
Ironically I've created campaigns where the villains are less evil than they are corrupted mortals who might yet be saved. I'd LOVE to have a Vader moment in one of my games where the villain says to the party "it is...too late for me." and then helps the party overthrow the BBEG.
Mark,
I feel inspired by your resilience. I think it's awesome that you always have a chance to succeed. I was one playing Rise of the Runelords: Burnt Offerings and I became obsessed with the idea of redeeming Nualia. I was playing and Aasimar and had no idea that Nualia was an Aasimar too before I began playing! Once he heard about her, my character did everything in his power to stack the odds in his favor to help redeem her through the church of Desna. Sadly, my DM didn't even offer me a roll... he just said that she's too far gone (this campaign fell apart within 2 more sessions). This made me really irritated as a player, but... what can you do?! Keep trying i guess.