my thought is that if you have entire planes of sentient beings created by the essence of GOOD or EVIL or what ever, then it makes sense that there is no way for them to be converted.
however, If you introduce the possibility of conversion one way.. then there should be equal possibility of conversion the other way.
I am, of course, not talking about real world religion heaven and hell. I am talking about game world.
I dont find "evil things are pure and irredeemably EVIL and thus cannot be made good" to be a valid argument because the opposition to that is "good things are pure and infallible GOOD and thus cannot be made evil"
In the game world if its possible for a significant number of angels to be corrupted to the point of becoming EVIL but by some law its essentially inconceivable or so difficult as to be essentially impossible except in a specific unique situation for evil to become GOOD then ultimately... in the long run. GOOD is destined to lose if by no other means than attrition.
(hovering very close to an alignment argument here which i hope to avoid)
Drive lawful outsiders chaotic by teaching them to program in mindf***.
OP Google legend of the silver skeleton it's campaign for 3.5(?) I think. It deals with a Giant who becomes a follower of Moridain and a succubus that becomes a Paladin of some good god.
You might like it.
Had a Kingmaker game where the cleric of Sarenrae redeemed Akiros, cast atonement and had him become a paladin once more. Also redeemed baron Drelev after the super-optimized party took out his castle through scry and fry. Much to the dismay of the bloodthirsty rogue and wizard, who wanted to make examples of everyone who were opposed to them. At least they got to kill off the wizard by cutting his head off before the good aligned cleric and cavalier got a say in the matter.
No, they did not get to stay good aligned for very long. The rogue never was, as he worshipped Norgorber.
OK, good points but Im sorry let me be more clear.
I am not so much talking about bad people becoming good. that happens all the time.
I am talking about evil outsiders, devils, daemons, demons, and the like becoming good aligned. an opposite effect of the fallen angel type Good outsider becoming EVIL.
I kind of left out my examples because I got sidetracked.
Your question goes back to the earliest days of D&D. People have been asking if those evil creatures always HAVE to be evil since the game began. Not a single forum, whether this one, the WoTC, nor any independent gaming forum has ever escaped this question. It comes up frequently.
The answer is, of course, that if the DM/GM wants to portray a demon as being redemptive, he will. It happens all the time.
I hate to give props to somebody who is amongst my least favorite authors, but taking an obvious one from D&D, Drizzt Do'Urden is a dark elf from Menzoberranzan, who casts aside his heritage and embraces his good side in the world above.
Question? Moot. Of course there are redemptive evil types in games.
I think it would be interesting to look at those demons and devils that have become nonevil in the d&d timeline and how they are. My example would be Fall from Grace, a LN succubus that has a business in the higher ward of Sigil in the planescape world. While I dont remember how she fell (though it may relate to a certain immortal), its interesting to note that she sees herself as fallen - not risen - and i think if she could go back to her evil thinking ways she might very well do that.
For me as a GM it depends on the particular character. Some are beyond redemption, others may not be, but even if some can be redeemed you must figure out how to approach them, and on some level they must normally have a desire or reason to be good.
its not so much that I want to have a senario in which an evil creature becomes good.
i know that I can technically make any story i want.
its more of an issue with the general lore. there are ranks of ereines and shadow angels. not just 1 or 2 unique ones. but enough to make them a generalized monster type.
but there is no such genralized monstertype representing evil redeamed into good.
even if its an extreamly minor creature example
Hollow Angel (CR1 N/G outsider): though rare it occurs from time to time that an evil being such as a demon or devil becomes redeemed either through some form of epiphany or as a result of an overwhelming effort by the forces of good. the result of such a transformation purges the being of almost every aspect of its existence and they spend hundreds of years as ethereal shadows gradually reforming themselves into angelic entities with little or no memory of their former selves. In truth those who have any memory of their former existence become the most fanatical in their efforts to oppose that which they once were.
granted I just made that up and any one can do the same. even Piazo could create such a creature just for the hell of it.
but what I find interesting is that no one has done it before.
though I did not begin with this intention I wonder if this question hints at human psychology in some way, related to how we view good and evil.
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Ok I understand now. I had never thought of that. I am guessing that it is because it is so rare that no basic monster would ever come from it. I think angelic being becoming evil should be very rare also, less than 99.9 percent, so to see evil being good would be even harder to find. I am thinking they don't want to set any precedents by making such a monster for the same reason they said they will never publish any good drow. That is just a guess though. It could just be because they never thought of it. It is a good question for the "Ask James Jacobs" thread.
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my oddest redeemed evil character, which there are a few, was a creature players saved in a forum Rp (which players at the table later met)
when a psion named Yuri began searching for answers to cosmic questions (as ultra powerful wizards and psions do.) he turned to victorian style frankenstienian methods.
being LN when Yuri's mansion was also attacked by adventurers thinking it was just another ruined keep (to be fair he never kept the place fixed) he used them as lab rats.
only the paldin survived.
Yuri became obsessed with foguring out cosmic balance between good/evil and law/chaos, and what parts of the mind were good and evil etc.
being a good mad scientist Yuri snatched outsiders and experimented on them.
Lukas was a LG incubus who eventually became a paladin, basicly Yuri did the equivilent of tearing the good/evil/law/chaos out of outsiders to see what happened.
players who raided Castle Maur found the incubus staggering around the halls after having been labotomized, and took a shine to him. Eventually causing him to go from N to LG which endured even after his mind was restored.
His quote when meeting the next party was "for all their big talk, deemons are slaves to themselves. I do what is right, and nobody tells me to. THAT is true freedom. The damsels are a nice perk too."
The players convinced him to act on their behalf too, he used his charm spells to incapacate enemies and talk to them. trying to redeem instead of kill.
He's kinda graduated to PC for next time we play a high level game.
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For me I've always thought of it as idea of the temptation of evil always being thought of as something both constant and external a lingering companion that walks in the shadow of the individual like the idea of death, with good outsiders the vast majority of them have learned to accept that and move past it thanks to the long mortal lives spent doing good and their time in the good planes transforming their after but some can always fall as evil offers up a whole lot up front (though it quite often takes back what it gave you in value & more soon after).
Mean while the concept of Good is an internal one, one an individual makes either from their experiences through life or their cultural that they were born into with evil outsiders either losing that in their transitions or being too bound up in the powers they've gained, how they got there, or how far they have fallen to really ever come back. The 2 examples that really pop into my mind are the Devils & the Daemons.
A Devil by writ is bound up in a cosmic order after death where they have suffered and been tormented for their previous crimes and the pit then uses this to mold them into newer beings stronger then they were before with, quite often with more power and social standing then they ever had before and giving them the purpose and structure they craved for in life.
Meanwhile a Daemon is formed from the soul of an individual who lived their lives as a conniving evil lout or were the victim of a terrible death. After that they end up on Abbadon and are hunted and killed in horrible ways until either they are destroyed utterly in a gory consumption or become a living effigy of the ways in which they were dying and the thing they once ran from. Trauma like that would leave a mark that many may never be able to heal or even want to the pain driving them to cause just as much harm to others as was done to them which is the driving force in all Daemons, the want to end this miserable multiverse and everything in it as they see it.
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I think it would be interesting to look at those demons and devils that have become nonevil in the d&d timeline and how they are. My example would be Fall from Grace, a LN succubus that has a business in the higher ward of Sigil in the planescape world. While I dont remember how she fell (though it may relate to a certain immortal), its interesting to note that she sees herself as fallen - not risen - and i think if she could go back to her evil thinking ways she might very well do that.
It would. If making a celestial evil involves corrupting it in some way, perhaps making a demon or devil redeemed is to cause it to perform some magnanimous deed. This would be easier with a devil, because they must follow rules... how about this:
A devil is imprisoned, and needs to beg for release. A wise sage discovers him and frees him on one condition: that when begged for an act of compassion, he must grant it to those worthy of it. Of course it never happened...at first. Eventually, having seized the soul of a righteous but insignificant woman through trickery, she begs him for compassion. Startled, he realises that she IS worthy of compassion, and grants it. At first it is an irritant to him, he cannot understand these occasional requests. So he puts his intellect to it, and watches how compassion works.
It doesn't take long for him to realise that compassion seems to be a kind of enlightened self-interest. It's hard work, but it's actually a good idea - an immortal can appreciate the long term view. He begins to work on it as a tool to build a network of allies.
When other devils discover his techniques they deride him as weak and gather to destroy him, and he barely escapes hell alive. Travelling the planes, he still has some of his network of allies, and from these he draws some strength and gathers his power-base again. It then occurs to him that Hell is not the best place for his system - the devils there are to obsessed with hierarchy to appreciate compassion and loyalty.
He builds a new power-base on other planes. His network extends, but he finds that he is acting more as a broker and a middle-man, power for it's own sake no longer excites him. Then he encounters a new emotion, one he cannot fathom, one that he has used many times but never before experienced: love.
This selfless extension to loyalty shocks and confuses him at first, but gradually he becomes enlightened. The world of compassion and loyalty works toward love, he realises. A world full of good people is a world that is better for all involved, the ultimate enlightened self-interest.
On his next encounter with an angel, he offers an alliance with is old foes, the hosts of heaven. What he receives is far more than he could have expected...
That's fine for those works. But in no way should they bind everyone else involved with or playing the game like some sort of narrative law. Not everyone wants misery porn 24/7. The game supports more than cynical sword and sorcery, and has for a long time.
Some folks like having actual Good good in their games.
Totally agree. I wish more of this was written into the stories too. I've said before, you see it in games like Mass Effect, where you actually get to see the difference Shepard makes to people's lives (ME3 in particular does this VERY well).
In terms of the topic, I can think of two examples of Outsiders from Planescape:Torment... the fallen angel Trias, and the chaste succubus Fall-From-Grace. It's notable that Grace chose that name for herself rather than 'Risen-From-Grace'; Nameless even talks to her about this.
I think it would be interesting to look at those demons and devils that have become nonevil in the d&d timeline and how they are. My example would be Fall from Grace, a LN succubus that has a business in the higher ward of Sigil in the planescape world. While I dont remember how she fell (though it may relate to a certain immortal), its interesting to note that she sees herself as fallen - not risen - and i think if she could go back to her evil thinking ways she might very well do that.
Heh, someone beat me to it!
Also note that Grace is 'supposed' to be LG. Chris Avellone mentioned she was only made LN so she could accompany an evil Nameless One. Same with Vhailor and good PCs.
Listen to her talk to Vhailor about morality - a pretty good explanation of LG vs LE ethics.
Dabbler: Wonderful idea for a redeemed devil.
Regardless, I don't know if being Evil (big E) precludes feeling compassion. I know it doesn't for mortals, but it could very well for the immortals. While an evil character doesn't care about people in general, it can still have a close relationship and appreciate another person based on personal feelings - I can see compassion leading both to fall of evil and to redemption.
I can see an evil dragon becoming more good due to it's compassion for it's young, but I don't know about a demon. Might be worth thinking about though.
I think it would be interesting to look at those demons and devils that have become nonevil in the d&d timeline and how they are. My example would be Fall from Grace, a LN succubus that has a business in the higher ward of Sigil in the planescape world. While I dont remember how she fell (though it may relate to a certain immortal), its interesting to note that she sees herself as fallen - not risen - and i think if she could go back to her evil thinking ways she might very well do that.Heh, someone beat me to it!
Also note that Grace is 'supposed' to be LG. Chris Avellone mentioned she was only made LN so she could accompany an evil Nameless One. Same with Vhailor and good PCs.
Listen to her talk to Vhailor about morality - a pretty good explanation of LG vs LE ethics.
Yep.
I doubt she'd go evil again, as the entire reason she went Neutral-leaning-Good was in response to the devil she'd been sold to as a slave (Fhjull the Cornugon, if I remember correctly). Going Lawful was part of that as well, learning to beat him at his own game. She mentions that she's suffering however - the innate chaos and evil that comprises her existence is at conflict with the lawful and good mentality and lifestyle she's living, and it's literally causing her pain.
Oh. It was a while ago I played that part (old CD's means constant crashes in weeping stones catacombs), must misremember.
No worries, I might not be perfectly accurate as well, it's been years since I played. =)
It's up to the PCs and the GM to come to redemption plot lines.
In my Kingmaker campaign, my Paladin has succeeded in converting 4 bandits from 3 different encounters and they have since become valued NPCs. (sadly, many of their comrades were tried and hanged for banditry)MAKE examples of redeemed evil in your own stories.
I agree,it is up to the PCs and DM. For instance, some characters are irrideemably evil whilst others will be willing to turn good for the better either through change or is some plan was revealed that he has been following down the wrong path.
Akrios Ismort looks for redemption as he finds the bandit life he lives as empty as the paladin life he had before. Aruchs it says he was always innately violent so even if redemed, it's unlikely he'd stay good.
I personally like making the non-redeemable villains who also act all dramatic and over the top. Kinda like Darkseid or Sherrif of Nottingham or to a more extreme end, General Zod.
I also like making villains who think they're going to win or that they've already won, no matter what the odds are that they're facing.
With reguard to Angels falling and becoming erinyeses:
Do we know if angels still fall? It could be that once, some time ago, a single angel, or maybe a charismatic angel and its followers, fell. I remember reading that unlike normal devils erinyeses actually had children. So it could be that all current erinyeses are decedents of the first (and perhaps only) fallen angel.
In this case, an angel falling may be just as unlikely as a demon rising. So unlikely in fact that it has only happened once. Ever.
erinyeses are a template. like goblin is a template. so its not exactly a unique creature.
also Shadow Angels are another kind of fallen angel similar but different from erinyeses.
but again even if your example were correct (which it is not a bad idea) why in all of the millenia has there never been a risen fiend which spawned a whole class of GOOD demons
(note... its not that I want a bunch of good deamons. it is more of a thought excersize for me. if it can go one way why cant it go the other... other than it just cant.)
I think a big part of the reason I feel like this is because I dont really see the IN GAME good and evil as REAL good and evil. so I dont really feel any kind of sanctity for in game good.
With reguard to Angels falling and becoming erinyeses:
Do we know if angels still fall? It could be that once, some time ago, a single angel, or maybe a charismatic angel and its followers, fell. I remember reading that unlike normal devils erinyeses actually had children. So it could be that all current erinyeses are decedents of the first (and perhaps only) fallen angel.
In this case, an angel falling may be just as unlikely as a demon rising. So unlikely in fact that it has only happened once. Ever.
They still fall.
While these evils can be raised from the ranks of lemures by lords of the infernal realm, few come into being in this manner. Instead, the majority are corrupted from angelic spirits, tempted away from the path of righteousness by infernal machinations.....
Because it is a lot easier to fall. When you enjoy want you do, and it is fun then why do anything else.
As for being good, the celestial may enjoy it, but it can be burdensome. You always have to do the right thing, you might not get the credit or recognition you deserve. It can be similar to being the employee at that is always mistreated even though he never does anything wrong. It can get old. They are effectively immortal, and after thousand upon thousands of years of the stress and so on I kind of understand, and they are doing things that are a lot more stressful than working a 9 to 5 job.
The evil guys are like the slacker that gets everything, and does not have to work nearly as hard, and their rewards are most likely better than what our jobs give us.
You are basically asking why aren't creatures as willing to take the hard route as the easy route when they are already hardwired to take the easy route. They also wired to try get others to take the easy route with them. <--A little over simplification, but the idea is the same.
As for being good, the celestial may enjoy it, but it can be burdensome.
Ah, you say that because your experience of goodness is limited to real-life humans. But, even the nicest most pleasent human is not made of good. An angel is not only not burdened by good, it literally cannot conceive of doing evil. For an angel to fall, you would need the intervention of a powerful evil being.
Btw, where is that quote on angels still falling from? I didn't see it on the SRD.
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The only thing that bothers me from a metaphysical point of view is that there are more fallen angels than risen devils. This means there is an asymmetry in how the metaphysics of Good and Evil works.
Also, the reason that we don't see a "risen devil" creature in the bestiary could be the same reason we see more different types of evil outsiders than good outsiders: Most characters are good, so there are naturally more evil stat-blocks. Paizo / WotC just havent gotten around to stating up the redeemed devils :)
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I actually like that there's an assymetry in the metaphysics of good and evil. It's what makes for good stories. It's easier to fall to temptation and corruption than it is to be stalwart and good. Redemption is a hard road, can a demon ever make up for the trillions and trillions of acts of evil and chaos it has wrought in its millennia of existence?
It takes a lot more than a quick atonement. On the other hand a fallen angel needs only commit a single act of unrepentant evil and it is damned for eternity. The path of good is rocky, narrow and perilous.
Seductive, the dark side is.
As for being good, the celestial may enjoy it, but it can be burdensome.Ah, you say that because your experience of goodness is limited to real-life humans. But, even the nicest most pleasent human is not made of good. An angel is not only not burdened by good, it literally cannot conceive of doing evil. For an angel to fall, you would need the intervention of a powerful evil being.
Btw, where is that quote on angels still falling from? I didn't see it on the SRD.
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The only thing that bothers me from a metaphysical point of view is that there are more fallen angels than risen devils. This means there is an asymmetry in how the metaphysics of Good and Evil works.
Also, the reason that we don't see a "risen devil" creature in the bestiary could be the same reason we see more different types of evil outsiders than good outsiders: Most characters are good, so there are naturally more evil stat-blocks. Paizo / WotC just havent gotten around to stating up the redeemed devils :)
Contrary to popular belief outsiders with the subtype of {evil, good, chaos, law}, are not made of those things. I made said that last year in a post, but could not find anything to support it. There is also nothing that says they never have evil thoughts, and they must be forced to turn good or bad. I think that because of how they are made they are unlikely to change which is why it is rare.
As for my quote it is on page 30 from Book of the damned: Prince of Darkness.
The asymmetry has already been explained. :)
Doing the right the thing is burdensome. Many times the intention to do good, can twist one's mind, until obsession makes it into an evil thing.
Also, the reason that we don't see a "risen devil" creature in the bestiary could be the same reason we see more different types of evil outsiders than good outsiders: Most characters are good, so there are naturally more evil stat-blocks. Paizo / WotC just havent gotten around to stating up the redeemed devils :)
Not according to James Jacobs. :)
No such general creature exists because a fallen angel type thing is rare already... but a risien fiend is INCREDIBLY rare. One of my philosophies about alignment is that it's easier to be evil than good, and easier to be chaotic than lawful.] As such, it's easier to fall from grace than rise from corruption (good to evil) or fall from order or rise from entropy (law to chaos).
As such, if and when we do a risen fiend, that will be a unique NPC crafted specifically for a key role in an Adventure Path. It won't be a template.
The only thing that bothers me from a metaphysical point of view is that there are more fallen angels than risen devils. This means there is an asymmetry in how the metaphysics of Good and Evil works.
Excuse me, but you are basing your numbers on the types of creatures. You are assuming that because there are no 'risen devil/demon creatures' that it doesn't happen. Both of these assumptions may be in error.
1) We have no idea of the actual numbers of good outsiders to evil ones. We know that the evil ones have more types, but that could have no relation to the actual numbers.
2) Fallen angels have a purpose in advertising such, or in using their resemblance to what they once were to trick and deceive. I would assume that a risen demon would not want to advertise it's former status, and has no need or desire to resort to trickery on humans. A fallen angel just wants to be evil so it looks like an evil angel, a risen devil wants to be a celestial, so it looks like one.
In other words, risen evil outsiders may exist but just not be obvious as such. Number of types in no way should be taken as an indicator of numbers OF those types.
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Ah, you say that because your experience of goodness is limited to real-life humans. But, even the nicest most pleasent human is not made of good. An angel is not only not burdened by good, it literally cannot conceive of doing evil. For an angel to fall, you would need the intervention of a powerful evil being.
Btw, where is that quote on angels still falling from? I didn't see it on the SRD.
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The only thing that bothers me from a metaphysical point of view is that there are more fallen angels than risen devils. This means there is an asymmetry in how the metaphysics of Good and Evil works.
Also, the reason that we don't see a "risen devil" creature in the bestiary could be the same reason we see more different types of evil outsiders than good outsiders: Most characters are good, so there are naturally more evil stat-blocks. Paizo / WotC just havent gotten around to stating up the redeemed devils :)
You have a point, there is a lot more evil in the beastary because Evil Player characters, let alone adventuring parties are a rare occurance. many players range from LG to CN evil is rarely played with evil goals as opposed to selfish ones, because evil Pc's are usually jerks.
that said my offical stance is that angels falling and demons rising is the ratio is about 1/1 and being rare overall.
if my players asked "why haven't we run into any risen demons?" it goes a bit like this
Q: "what is the first reaction to a demon? even one who looks corrupted by good"
A: "it's a trick, stab him, stab him now"
Q: "why would you wind up fighting one?"
A: "um..."
the better way to work one in is that he/she/it is after The Macguffen too, and while his intentions are good, they aren't yours, and thus you are competing against it.
Why do you think that there must be a symmetry? It's never been as easy to be Good as it is to promote Evil. Good has to be actively worked towards. Evil progresses simply by inaction if nothing else. The only thing that keeps demons and devils from overwhelming the upper planes are the mutual hatred both have for each other and the scheming within their own kinds.The only thing that bothers me from a metaphysical point of view is that there are more fallen angels than risen devils. This means there is an asymmetry in how the metaphysics of Good and Evil works.
Why does that have to be the case? Good and altruism evolved in people as part of natural selection, so being good has strong survival advantages, and this makes being good a case of 'enlightened self interest' for those that think about it objectively. The forces of chaotic and lawful evil fight constantly among themselves (not just against one another), while those of lawful and chaotic good will band together easily.
I see no reason to assume that the hosts of hell and the abyss are of such vast numbers and might that they could overwhelm the upper planes. Being good might be harder work than being evil, but in the long run it is work that gets rewarded.
Unless of course they're having major issues with the Law/Chaos spectrum. Goods can have major issues with each other. Ask Tyrael sometime. :)
Why does that have to be the case? Good and altruism evolved in people as part of natural selection, so being good has strong survival advantages, and this makes being good a case of 'enlightened self interest' for those that think about it objectively. The forces of chaotic and lawful evil fight constantly among themselves (not just against one another), while those of lawful and chaotic good will band together easily.
They can. Likewise, democratic governments can have problems with one another - but never go to war with one another, no matter how deep those disagreements extend. Good can disagree, but critically they very rarely come to blows whereas for evil it's the preferred method of solving the dispute for the stronger side.
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Why do we see more fallen angels than risen fiends?
- Because we like a good tragic tale
- Because we like to have a villain who was once good (see 1)
- Because usually doing what is easy is a lot more fun than doing what is right. Thus, most beings of pure evil don't want to quit their day job. It's easier to imagine an angel feeling like they're fighting a losing battle than a demon who, being what he is, feels regret.
A risen fiend is also harder to work into a story, and they're more likely to be a memorable ally than a moving antagonist, if anything.
But of course, if you don't think there are enough, by all means give us a good story about a risen demon.
Every single soul that becomes a devil is processed stripped of identity and molded in a form suitable to progress the cause of hell.
I imagine heaven does not do that,a saint that has led an exceptionally good and worthy life might be rewarded and given shape as an astral deva to serve the lords of good. The limited experience this soul had in life did not prepare him for an eternity of servitude, perhaps there has always been a gnawing doubt hidden deep in his soul that the gods are all what they seem to be and after millenia this tiny sliver of doubt starts to weaken his resolve.
In the beginning good and evil were as of yet undefined, eventually lines were drawn and those that did not choose to follow the gods were deemed evil and cast from heaven, these were the first fallen and came to be known as devils.
* Before these fallen were cast out a contract was written to define 'evil' so Asmodeus could claim mortal souls that strayed from the path to continue his fight against chaos, Asmodeus tricked the other gods and not just mortals souls would fall prey to the Prince of Darkness but the gods minions too would be bound by this cosmic law, if one strayed from the path asmodeus was free to claim this soul and drag him to the pit to serve him for eternity. Thus Asmodeus fell, but he took with him a third of the heavenly legions and quite a few more in the aeons to follow...
True evil cannot be redeemed.I don't consider the celestial outsiders to be any less "true good" than I do the fiendish outsiders to be "true evil". So if true evil cannot be redeemed, then why can true good be so easily corrupted?
I don't think anyone said it was done easily. It is just easier.
Contrary to popular belief outsiders with the subtype of {evil, good, chaos, law}, are not made of those things. I made said that last year in a post, but could not find anything to support it. There is also nothing that says they never have evil thoughts, and they must be forced to turn good or bad. I think that because of how they are made they are unlikely to change which is why it is rare.
Maybe. However, I don't really like this, it does not make sense to me. Being good is usually more effective in the long run. You make allies, you conserve energy and you gain power. Look at humans in the real world: There is a reason that we mostly cooperate. If devils are Evil outsiders are just "predisposed" to evil, but are capable of conceiving of good, then they will all eventually become good. This is because being good is just more effective than being evil.
The transition to good is made even more likely because the evil outsiders have a very high death-rate, since they kill one another all the time. If even a small group banded together, their chances of survival would greatly increase.
To maintain the status quo, you need some powerful external force that would actively discourage being Good. And I feel that this discouragement needs to reach the very bottom of the hierarchy to be sustainable. You could have a powerful overlord (like Asmodeous) enforcing Evilness. But that seems unsatisfying to me because then the rest of the devils are the oppressed underdogs... The best way of keeping all the devils Evil is designing them such that to be good is Inconceivable.
Doing the right the thing is burdensome. Many times the intention to do good, can twist one's mind, until obsession makes it into an evil thing.
I dunno. Doesn't this mostly happen because we are flawed humans and not living embodiment / representatives of Goodness?
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In the end, I doubt that we can ever come up with a metaphysics that matches all of the stuff that has been written about outsiders. This is because the authors usually do not try to write to a consistent metaphysics. They are telling cool stories. And cool stories are more likely to have fallen angels than risen devils.
The United States and Chile might have a word with you.
They can. Likewise, democratic governments can have problems with one another - but never go to war with one another, no matter how deep those disagreements extend.
I am unaware of the USA-Chilean war, can you supply details?
I believe its a reference to American support for a revolution against the democratically elected government in Chile.
Me too, but that isn't an armed conflict. Strictly speaking, the USA and Chile remained on good terms. This is not an example of how good-aligned allies behave, though.