Pathfinder wiki has a nice little compilation of what's know about the Empyreal Lord Ragathiel, but is there going to be anything more forthcoming any time soon? I don't see anything in the summaries for the Faiths of Balance of Faiths of Purity? Is this something someone (me) should be writing up for Wayfinder? Does anyone have any thoughts on a holy symbol, other than a flaming bastard sword?
Not much information on the empyreal lords, alas. My inquisitor of Andoletta is going to be a lot of improv.
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For what it's worth, I've wanted D&D designers to publish a bit more on Celestial Powers -- certainly not to the extent of Abyssal Lords and their betters, the Arch Devils, but at least something.
Maybe we'll get something from Paizo in a year or so with Ragathiel, Gabriel, some named Solars, and some new ones.
Ms. Lilith, did you get my email re: helping out with editing for Wayfinder? I'm sure you're busy with all sorts of official and unofficial business, and cookie baking, but thought I'd ask.
Ms. Lilith, did you get my email re: helping out with editing for Wayfinder? I'm sure you're busy with all sorts of official and unofficial business, and cookie baking, but thought I'd ask.
I did, and you're on my list. :)
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While I don't recall if any of the Empyreal Lords are sneaking into the "Faiths" books - not saying they're not, but I'm not at my desk - I've been kicking around ideas for a reverse Book of the Damned style book for awhile. The Empyreal Lords were my babies for the Campaign Setting and I'm glad to hear folks dig the idea of essentially "good demon lords." I totally think there's some fun characters in there, and if we can pull off three books of all fiends, all the time, with rules for characters utilizing such themes, I totally think there's room for something on the good demigods. It's just a question of whether good sells as well as evil.
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good stuff
The Empyreal Lords are really interesting, between gods and mortals, capable of granting spells and being worshipped.
I would be fascinated to learn more about them and see more ideas, inspiration and even crunch for playing a worshipper.It might also give a further insight into Sarenrae.
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While I don't recall if any of the Empyreal Lords are sneaking into the "Faiths" books - not saying they're not, but I'm not at my desk - I've been kicking around ideas for a reverse Book of the Damned style book for awhile. The Empyreal Lords were my babies for the Campaign Setting and I'm glad to hear folks dig the idea of essentially "good demon lords." I totally think there's some fun characters in there, and if we can pull off three books of all fiends, all the time, with rules for characters utilizing such themes, I totally think there's room for something on the good demigods. It's just a question of whether good sells as well as evil.
(Emphasis mine)
Three books?
This, plus Todd saying on the CR 20+ blog that he had one of them on his hard drive 'because of another project' makes me really happy!
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While I don't recall if any of the Empyreal Lords are sneaking into the "Faiths" books - not saying they're not, but I'm not at my desk - I've been kicking around ideas for a reverse Book of the Damned style book for awhile. The Empyreal Lords were my babies for the Campaign Setting and I'm glad to hear folks dig the idea of essentially "good demon lords." I totally think there's some fun characters in there, and if we can pull off three books of all fiends, all the time, with rules for characters utilizing such themes, I totally think there's room for something on the good demigods. It's just a question of whether good sells as well as evil.(Emphasis mine)
Three books?
This, plus Todd saying on the CR 20+ blog that he had one of them on his hard drive 'because of another project' makes me really happy!
Book of the Damned Volume 1: Princes of Darkness is already out.
This Christmas we get Book of the Damned Volume 2: Lords of Chaos.That's Devils and Demons sorted, just need Daemons in Volume 3
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While I don't recall if any of the Empyreal Lords are sneaking into the "Faiths" books - not saying they're not, but I'm not at my desk - I've been kicking around ideas for a reverse Book of the Damned style book for awhile. The Empyreal Lords were my babies for the Campaign Setting and I'm glad to hear folks dig the idea of essentially "good demon lords." I totally think there's some fun characters in there, and if we can pull off three books of all fiends, all the time, with rules for characters utilizing such themes, I totally think there's room for something on the good demigods. It's just a question of whether good sells as well as evil.(Emphasis mine)
Three books?
This, plus Todd saying on the CR 20+ blog that he had one of them on his hard drive 'because of another project' makes me really happy!
Book of the Damned Volume 1: Princes of Darkness is already out.
This Christmas we get Book of the Damned Volume 2: Lords of Chaos.
That's Devils and Demons sorted, just need Daemons in Volume 3
That was my supposition as well...
I'll be happy with whatever addition material you guys and gals at Paizo.com put out just as long as you don't force Paladins of Ragathiel to take the Oath of Chastity.
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Personally I'd love to know if Ragathiel was born before or after Dispater's fall. The idea of someone that's technically a risen fiend being one of the Empyreal Lords is all kinds of awesome, and leads to some really nice imagery. Something like a cross between Saint Michael and Hellboy.
I'm not sure if it's been covered in print or not. Probably need to recheck Faiths of Purity...
Btw, I totally endorse Wes pushing for a book on the Empyreal Lords. He would make it awesome.
(But if that ever gets rolling, one thing to look at fixing is that we're faced with the conflicting list of them from the MM versus the in-Golarion books. However keeping baseline PF versus Golarion IP distinct may keep this as a lurking issue)
Three books?This, plus Todd saying on the CR 20+ blog that he had one of them on his hard drive 'because of another project' makes me really happy!
Never saw this before, but in my defence, I've never posted anything like that on a blog. I do however remember saying somewhere online that I have enough unpublished fiendish/planes stuff on my desktop that it could probably be made into a book. But that was an offhanded comment and I think it was made before BotD III was even a project I was working on.
Just needed to clarify that. When I'm working on cool things, as much as I want to tell folks about them, I don't till they're announced. Like two projects I'm working on now (which have nothing to do with this thread).
A book on Ragathiel and the rest of the Empyreal lords (and indeed celestials in general) is high on my Pathfinder wish list. I recently joined a Rise of the Runelords campaign and one of my character ideas was a Chelaxian inquisitor of Ragathiel. I decided to go with an inquisitor of Asmodeus, simply because I had more setting material to work with.
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+LOTS to the idea of the Empyreal Lords getting a book. And celestials in general.
Specific books for Azatas, Angels, etc. would rock as well, though the Empyreals might work rolled into a general Angel book. Whole-book treatment would offer some great opportunities to widen the range of appearance, nature, and themes for celestials as well, from the expected to the weird, familiar to the alien, welcoming to the frightening, civilized to the wild, calm to the hot-blooded, etc. It could really put the lie to the old claims that good is somehow boring. And it could give celestials some of the variety the fiends have had a monopoly on for far too long ever since guys like the Zoveri and the Busen stopped showing up after Planescape. And it would demonstrate that Good* does not just come in pretty or familiar packages.
(if this presented non-paladin classes some holy flavor options of their own, BONUS)
*Legitimate for-reals Good that is, not the fake kind you get when people try to play the Good Is Not Nice trope and forget to include some actual goodness.
Id buy a book about good outsiders for sure.
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Thoughts about Ragathiel:
Ragathiel is described as having five wings, and is the son of Dispater. The standard (historical) appearance of the Seraphim were as angels having six wings: two for flight, two to cover the face, and two to cover the feet. I imagine that Ragathiel had six wings, but lost the one covering his left foot.
His left foot is shown to be a cloven hoof.
I often think of Ragathiel as the sullen, bitter badass. I've mentioned this before: when revenge is LG, it's normally called "justice." Not in Ragathiel's case. But still, revenge and justice are different; you don't need to "get back at" evil to demonstrate justice. So Ragathiel is deformed, harmed by his brush with evil, but he rises above it regardless and acts as champion of good, striking back at dark predators to save those from suffering as he has suffered. He uses his own suffering to fuel his anger.
I think that here is where the true dichotomy of Ragathiel's nature becomes apparent. On one hand, he's the champion of the downtrodden, unceasing defender, general of the holy hosts. On the other hand, he can be seen as an upstart rebel, rejecting his father, unwilling to embrace that part of his heritage, with a chip on his shoulder. So, depending on your disposition, he's either a wondrously successful leader and survivor of horrors, or a petty, emo punk with daddy issues.
Or, he shows that you can be a petty, emo punk with daddy issues and still become a wondrously successful leader. If anything, that's a beautiful story to tell.
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Thoughts about Ragathiel:
Ragathiel is described as having five wings, and is the son of Dispater. The standard (historical) appearance of the Seraphim were as angels having six wings: two for flight, two to cover the face, and two to cover the feet. I imagine that Ragathiel had six wings, but lost the one covering his left foot.
His left foot is shown to be a cloven hoof.
Like.
Some asymmetrical devilish feature like that sticking out or working with his angelic ones could make for some really cool visuals.
I had been seeing him as needing to have some obvious visual cue to show his heritage, full-blown devilish horns being an easy option, but just enough of a celestial sheen over it to paint that feature in a more noble light. It would be something he wouldn't hide out of shame, he'd be upfront and make no apologies for what he is: He's his father's son, but he's also risen above that.
I am playing a paladin of Ragathiel and designed a holy symbol for him.
Chastity: Chained Heart
Vengence: Burning Heart
Chivalry: Silver Mantling
Duty: Red & Black Marks on the Mantling
That's pretty awesome. Might use it until a canonical holy symbol has been made (assuming it looks good).
Ragatheil is awesome. I do want more on emperyal lords.
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I am playing a paladin of Ragathiel and designed a holy symbol for him.
Chastity: Chained Heart
Vengence: Burning Heart
Chivalry: Silver Mantling
Duty: Red & Black Marks on the Mantling
Personally I'd say it's a bit gaudy compared to other holy symbols, but I'm not exactly certain what constitutes that for a Holy symbol.
It is accurate to what's described on Page 21 of Faiths of Purity, though. Red and silver are Ragathiel's favored colors. His symbol is described as a flame-colored ornament or sigil typically worn on the helmet, though.
I'll be honest, the symbol looks more like a mortal noble house's coat of arms than the symbol of a demigod worn by his faithful, but that's just me.
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I'd love to see a book on the Empyreal Lords (and perhaps some Paladin codes for the LG and some of the NG ones).
While they aren't explicitly Golarion content, some of the names from the Bestiary are very evocative.
For Archons;
Cocidius, Hawk-Keeper
Duellona, Warrior Maiden
Erland Shen, the All-Seeing
Hors, the Freezing Sun
Ogoun, of Fire and Iron
Radigost, Bringer of Boons
For Azata;
Cernunnos, the Stag Lord
Connla, the Wolfhound's Son
Maahes, the Guardian Beast
Muyingwa, the Seed Thrower
Ibeji, the Twins
A Big Book of Empyreals that gave some detail on figures like these would rock.
The Empyreal named Korada, from the Inner Sea World Guide, happens to have the same name as an Avoral Agathion 'Empyreal' named Korada of the Dream Lotus (from Bestiary 2). I hope that's not a coincidence, 'cause it sounds intriguing!
Since the *vast* majority of games I play don't allow evil characters anyway, a book focused on the Empyreal Lords would be much more useful to me than one detailing what worshippers of demon lords, archdevils or daemon horsemen get...
I also think RAgatheil will be an a great diety to have more information on for npcs in Lastwall should have at least a small following. Could make an interesting npc.
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From this thread, which is also pretty good:
But let me tell you now of Erem-Thingol, Shield-Bearer to Ragathiel. Ragathiel, greatest of the Empyreal Lords, embodies the heart of the Hellknight ideal: born of Hell and Fire, he achieved victory over his nature through Order, Discipline and Mercilessness. (Honor to Ragathiel, whose sword keeps the way).
Sympathetic to humanity, sensing the plight of Cheliax, and understanding the intentions of the Founder, Ragathiel sent Erem-Thingol unto Golarion. Loyal, the archon went forth. The tiefling offspring of man's indiscretion and weakness, the vulnerable who have no savior of their own, those are the flock of Erem-Thingol. He appears with the setting sun to keep them from the temptation of their heritage, to guard them from the talons of Hell and guide them toward righteousness and order. Five are the names of Hellknights said to have been sponsored into the Orders by Erem-Thingol, each peerless warriors cursed with infernal heritage. They are the only tieflings ever to wear the armor, and each acquitted themselves heroically before their gruesome ends. Other tieflings he has carried from Cheliax, or hidden from retribution. He is implacable in his duty, bound one day to return to heaven and Ragatheil's side and so is said to be invulnerable in battle.
Some within the Orders believe that Erem-Thingol sympathizes with the Orders. In heretical weakness, they actually pray to Ragathiel and Erem-Thingol for the strength to resist Hell. The fools mistake respect for reverence, and forget that strength comes from Discipline within, not providence without.
But you did not hear such things from me.
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Interesting. I've had two different players choose to play clerics of Ragathiel. since there was hardly much written about him, i told my players to just roleplay how they think Ragatheil would want them to act from their own perspective. One player was indeed all emo but highly emotional when enraged. The other guy decided he was Scottish and roleplayed more like a cross between a Cleric of Caydean Caliean and Calistria....if you know what I mean... That guy even went around proclaiming himself the "Pope of Ragathiel" and of course no one could argue.
Im in the process of making a paladin of Ragathiel and you all have some great ideas here that I will be borrowing from. Well done and thank you.