Threatening Defender
You know how to avoid a blow while still maintaining your offensive posture.Benefit: When you use Combat Expertise, reduce the number you subtract from your melee attack rolls by 1.
This is from Pathfinder Companion: Cheliax, Empire of Devils
Personally I think it is a solid trait but not a must have one.
Cheers!
Is that a campaign trait? If it is, you can't have that and Sword Scion on the same PC, and I know which one I'd choose!
It is a combat trait.
I'd like to suggest the halfling as a viable pick (especially now that the PrC gives Dex builds a boost). As a halfling, you get access to another +2 AC when fighting defensively via
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/arg-feats/cautious-fighter-combat-halfling
What's that, you want to be a team player? How about giving your adjacent allies one half of your fighting defensively bonus as a Luck boost to AC/CMD?
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/arg-feats/blundering-defense-combat-halfling
That's +3 AC for allies with Crane Style, Acrobatics ranks, and Cautious Fighter. If you get Steel Net, you're giving them +4.
But how will I do damage? Well, this feat won't work if you're fighting humanoids all the time (unless the mage casts Reduce Person on you), but if you're fighting monsters, Risky Striker is more or less reliable. While you don't get 1.5x the damage as a power attacker might, at least the AC penalty doesn't scale, while the damage boost does.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/arg-feats/risky-striker-combat-halfling
So.... I have been toying with the idea of making an Aldori Swordlord and have spent a week trying to make the concept viable. I agree with you on every single one of the "traps" and have now decided to go with a strength build.
I was looking at the Crowd Pleaser, as it is closest to what I was looking for, but I am confused by the part of the guide that recommends Maneuver Master in order to tack on disarms to a full attack...
The disarms will be at -2 due to the Flurry of Maneuvers and it says that you use your Monk level in place of your BAB. Monk level will never be higher than 1 so you start with a -1 to your roll? Combat maneuvers are hard enough to land already. Is this really worth it? Am I missing something?
Not to dredge up an old post, but I didn't understand one part. The part on the Snake Style progression reads:
Snake Style, Snake Sidewind, Snake Fang. It's all about Snake Fang here. Anytime someone misses you in combat, you get to take an AoO with your unarmed strike, anytime they hit you get to take an AoO with your sword. No matter what, anyone who attacks you is vulnerable to a counterstrike. Nice! I call this the Retribution Build.
Why do I get an AoO with a sword if they hit? Snake Fang says that I get to make an unarmed AoO if they attack and miss me, and another one (also unarmed) if I hit with the first AoO.
Nowhere does it mention getting an AoO if they hit me.
Counterattack (Ex) At 11th level, a swordlord can make an attack of opportunity as an immediate action against an opponent who hits the swordlord with a melee attack, so long as the attacking creature is within the swordlord’s reach. This ability replaces Armor Training 3.
To increase DPS attacks with offhand and unarmed strike.. If I remember correctly.
So.... I have been toying with the idea of making an Aldori Swordlord and have spent a week trying to make the concept viable. I agree with you on every single one of the "traps" and have now decided to go with a strength build.
I was looking at the Crowd Pleaser, as it is closest to what I was looking for, but I am confused by the part of the guide that recommends Maneuver Master in order to tack on disarms to a full attack...
The disarms will be at -2 due to the Flurry of Maneuvers and it says that you use your Monk level in place of your BAB. Monk level will never be higher than 1 so you start with a -1 to your roll? Combat maneuvers are hard enough to land already. Is this really worth it? Am I missing something?
Unless it was changed, I believe that you use your BAB progression for Flurry of Blows.
Yeah, I figured it out not long after I posted that. I have a swordlord character built that I want to try out, but have not gotten a chance to play yet.
What do you guys think of this?
Human (Taldan) Aldori Swordlord 1 Samurai (Sword Saint) 6
LN Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +6; Senses Perception +0
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Defense
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AC 22, touch 14, flat-footed 18 (+7 armor, +1 shield, +4 Dex)
hp 79 (7d10+33)
Fort +7, Ref +7, Will +3
Defensive Abilities resolve (3/day); Resist cockatrice's skills
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee Mithral Sword, Aldori dueling +14/+9 (1d8+8/19-20/x2)
Special Attacks braggart, brutal slash +3, cockatrice's challenge +6 (2/day), iajutsu strike +3d6/-4 ac (full-round), terrifying iajutsu (dc 15)
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Statistics
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Str 12, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 15
Base Atk +7; CMB +8; CMD 22
Feats Aldori Dueling Mastery, Dazzling Display (Sword, Aldori dueling), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Sword, Aldori dueling), Toughness +7, Tribal Scars (Slothjaw), Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Sword, Aldori dueling), Weapon Specialization (Sword, Aldori dueling)
Traits Armor Expert, Sword Scion
Skills Acrobatics +10, Appraise +5, Bluff +11, Climb +6, Diplomacy +7, Handle Animal +8, Intimidate +10, Knowledge (nobility) +6, Perform (dance) +6, Ride +8, Sense Motive +8, Swim +6
Languages Common
SQ mounted archer, orders (order of the cockatrice), weapon expertise (katana)
Other Gear +1 Mithral Agile breastplate, Mithral Sword, Aldori dueling, Belt of incredible dexterity +2, 12730 GP
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Special Abilities
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Aldori Dueling Mastery Gain combat benefits when using Aldori dueling swords
Armor Expert -1 Armor check penalty.
Braggart (Ex) Demoralize as a standard action, +2 to hit demoralized targets.
Brutal Slash +3 (Ex) Gain a bonus to confirm Iajutsu Strike criticals.
Cockatrice's Challenge +6 (2/day) (Ex) +6 to damage target, -2 AC vs. others when used, +2 damage when you are the only one threatening the target.
Cockatrice's Skills +2 (Ex) +2 to DC vs. demoralization.
Dazzling Display (Sword, Aldori dueling) Intimidate check to demoralize can affect those within 30' who see you.
Iajutsu Strike +3d6/-4 AC (Full-round) (Ex) Draw sword as strike challenged foe for extra dam, but take AC penalty for 1 rd. You can use this once per foe, each day.
Mounted Archer (Ex) At 4th level, the samurai becomes skilled at firing ranged weapons while mounted. A samurai only takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls with ranged weapons while his mount takes a double move. This penalty increases to –4 while his mount is running.
Resolve (3/day) (Ex) Starting at 1st level, the samurai gains resolve that he can call upon to endure even the most devastating wounds and afflictions. He can use this ability once per day at 1st level, plus one additional time per day for every two samurai levels beyond
Sword Scion +1 to hit and CMB with longswords and Aldori Dueling Swords.
Terrifying Iajutsu (DC 15) (Ex) When hit foe with Iajutsu Strike, all foes in 30 ft shaken 1d4+1 rds (Will neg).
Weapon Expertise (Katana) (Ex) You can quick draw the chosen weapon, and gain +2 to confirm critical hits.
Equipment is rudimental. Of course some feats could be changed. Higher crit and confirmation could be useful, as well as dodge or similar things. Unfortunately sword saints quick draw ability is wasted, except your GM allows it for the dueling sword, which isn´t a big bother.
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What do you guys think of this?
** spoiler omitted **...
I really like this build, but where do you get Tribal Scars (Slothjaw) from and what does it do??
Also to Victor, you bring a really interesting concept to the table imo. Never would I have considered an Archaeologist Aldori of all things plus not only do you get awesome rougish abilities, but you also get spells that can be flavored into why this swift swordsman can strike so true and yet retain the "image" of being all over the place. AMAZING haha
Seconded on the archeologist!
hate to necropost, but the 'crowd pleaser' build in the guide doesn't seem legit--crane wing requires BAB +5, and you're getting it at 5th level. you only have +4 BAB at that point because of the monk dip.
you can remedy this by swapping crane wing and mobility at 5th and 7th levels, respectively.
also, an alternate build without the equipment trick (scabbard) might look something like this:
(minimum requirements)
str 13+, dex 13+
str>con/cha>dex>wis>int
Feats:
(fighter) 1 Weapon Focus (aldori dueling sword), Power Attack, Dodge, Performance Weapon Mastery
(monk) 2* Improved Disarm
(back to fighter) 3 Crane Style, Mobility
5 Weapon Specialization, Spring Attack
7 Lunge, Crane Wing
9 Osyluth's Guile, Crane Riposte
11 Combat Reflexes, Disarming Strike
wear medium armor and go nuts.
wonderful! also, have you taken a look at the ACG playest doc? th swashbuckler seems like a snug fit (provided you grab aldori dueling mastery)
I think that the best use of the Aldori PrC is for high-level NPCs that know how to deal with uppity Barbarian player characters.
Raise Thread!
Is there still any value in the Crane Style chain now that Wing's been nerfed and Riposte's been rendered useless by the change to Wing?
To what nerf are you referring? Did I miss something?
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To what nerf are you referring? Did I miss something?
It's in the Ultimate Combat Errata. Essentially instead of being able to deflect one melee attack per round with Crane Wing (unless you use the Total Defense action, but for the swordlord especially, that's a non-factor), you only add a +4 Dodge Bonus once per round before the attack is rolled, which also means you can't get an attack in with Crane Riposte.
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It looks like they're still considering these changes and didn't realise the implications with Crane Riposte, so, don't panic and burn your character sheets just yet. Give it a few days and see what Paizo comes up with and whether the changes remain, it's pretty clear that *something* will alter to ensure Crane Riposte isn't rendered void.
I don't think it's in a consideration phase - the changes are in an official errata document - to me that would mean that the new printing of the book has been finalized and is at the printers (or maybe even already back from the printers).
To what nerf are you referring? Did I miss something?It's in the Ultimate Combat Errata. Essentially instead of being able to deflect one melee attack per round with Crane Wing (unless you use the Total Defense action, but for the swordlord especially, that's a non-factor), you only add a +4 Dodge Bonus once per round before the attack is rolled, which also means you can't get an attack in with Crane Riposte.
you're joking, right? paizo can't possibly have thought nerfing the monk yet AGAIN was a good idea. there is no way SKR has that much of a hateboner for them.
play nice. that sort of comment got the discussion threads locked last night, we don't need to get this locked as well
you're joking, right? paizo can't possibly have thought nerfing the monk yet AGAIN was a good idea. there is no way SKR has that much of a hateboner for them.To what nerf are you referring? Did I miss something?It's in the Ultimate Combat Errata. Essentially instead of being able to deflect one melee attack per round with Crane Wing (unless you use the Total Defense action, but for the swordlord especially, that's a non-factor), you only add a +4 Dodge Bonus once per round before the attack is rolled, which also means you can't get an attack in with Crane Riposte.
There were two big issues. The first, like many monk things, was not that the monk was too powerful with it, but that other classes gained too much from it, as was the case with Druids and AoMF, and other such stuff.
The second, however was the Monk of Many Styles. For a single level dip, you could gain Crane Wing much earlier than it was designed to be used. This, however is only half of the issue. The other half is PFS. While Crane Wing was powerful, it could be overcome by a DM who used tactics beyond melee fighters. However in PFS, the DMs are not free to change around encounters on the fly, and the fights that occur tend to be those that Crane Wing performs well against. As a result it got nerfed based on how it performed in PFS, rather than how it performed at the vast majority of home tables.
The Crane Riposte thing, I believe, had more to do with the designers not really putting much thought into how their change affected the next feat on the line.
I have made an Aldori Duelist, using Lore warden as the starter, going into a one level dip into the Aldori PrC, then a around lvl 9ish going into the duelist for about 3-4 lvls then going back into Lore Warden until 16. This was for a Carrion Crown hence the 16ish goal. Sadly, never gotten to play high high end with him. Was looking into the Step Up line and maybe some of the Disruptive/Spell breaker and have looked at combat patrol/lunge as well.
This upcoming Saturday, I'll start playing my Swordlord character! Initially, it was going to be a MoMS 2 (Snake style, mantis in the later levels) / Lorewarden, but then it dawned that we actually had no divine casters, *and* not much UMD. So, after a bit of musing, I'm going to play an Oracle of Battle with a dueling sword. Has anyone tried something like that yet?
Mind, the campaign rules are very beneficial for me. There is no "sword scion" trait, but I can get the exotic weapon proficiency with a trait, which is nice, *and* Weapon Finesse as well as Combat Expertise are free feats. There is also a "refurbished and renamed" Dervish Dancer feat that works with any finesse weapon (prereq. Weapon Focus and BAB 3+), so I'm planning on a dex build.
Would you think that going into any prestige classes would be beneficial? There's not a lot of options for a "swordlord" oracle that I have found, unless you dip just one level or so, or give up the high level spells altogether.
What do you all think of the Enforcer feat for a Swordlord? Should work with the "Merciful" enchantment in the later levels. Since I don't plan on offensive spellcasting, I figured it might make a good "debuff". Would Dazzling Display be the better choice? That full round action sounds awkward.
An Oracle is powerful as he is, but the dueling sword will not make any difference. Definately do not dip out of Oracle.
Have you considered a Warpriest? They are divine casters with a more martial focus from the ACG.
In the end though, the dueling sword does not worth it. A scimitar is plain better. The only reason to take it is to use the swordlord archetype or the PrC.
If you like the falvor though, go for it. At least with the Aldori Dueling Mastery feat you get some bonus to initiative.
Well, yes - the scimitar is superior, but that's irrelevant. No one would accept a duel if you bring one of those things along. That's about as civilized as using a battle axe to cut your sandwich!
As far as Warpriest goes: really considered it, but in the end the GM preferred not to use the playtest classes yet, since several of them had issues in his opinion (and I agree with most of his points). He didn't feel like allowing some but not others. Without that decision, though, I may not have chosen the class, anyway, since my character isn't actually all that religious. Oracle is a pretty good fit for an "inspired" but non-religious combatant.
As a total aside: how do people imagine their dueling swords to look? I'm going for a "schiavona" style, myself.
http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_spot_schia.html
I'd say that that's pretty close, although the blades are described as slightly curved.
*Puts on dark robe, takes out robe bound in poster's skin, and begins chanting.*
*Casts animate thread.*
I know I'm necroing this thread, but now the Aldori dueling sword is viable! Yes, viable!
The deal is, you can make an absurd build by becoming a Kensai magus. How, you ask? With this:
1. Make your character a kensai. This gives him Weapon Focus and EWP for free.
2. Invest the EWP in the dueling sword (obviously).
3. Be a human for a bonus feat. Take you normal feat and your human bonus feat in Weapon Finesse and, because the dueling sword is a slashing weapon, Slashing Grace (Aldori Dueling Sword).
4. Use arcane mark shenanigans.
5. Watch your DM weep as you flaunt your high armor class, double-attacking dex-based magus build.
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By the powers of these boards I cast Raise Thread!
We will start a kingmaker campaign soon. I love the guide anarchitect wrote and I got some good ideas from it.
I really like the idea of the sword lord archetype.
But I still want to ask the boards (or anarchitect if he still monitors this thread) for some ideas, as we will be using 15 point buy. The examples in the guide are all 20 point, so I will be more restricted in what to choose.
15 point buy, human, stat increase in strength
Stats:
STR 17 DEX 14 CON 14 INT 8 WIS 10 CHA 10
CON can go to 12 to up DEX, but I will be the only real frontliner in our party so I figured I need to be able to take a lot of blows.
If I leave it like this, no Two weapon fighting untill lvl 8 to put the stat increase in DEX.
I pretty much need Manouver Master as needing and INT of 13 will make it quite MAD for 15 point buy. Well, it would be doable, but dipping into Manouver Master makes it so much easier.
1st Fighter 1 Power Attack, Dodge, W.F. Aldori Sword
2nd Monk 1 Flurry of Maneuvers, Imp. Disarm, Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist
3rd Fighter 2 Crane Style
4th Fighter 3 Defensive Parry, +1 STR
5th Fighter 4 Mobility, W. S. Aldori Sword
6th Fighter 5 Disarming Strike
7th Fighter 6 Crane Wing, Spring Attack
8th Fighter 7 Steel Net, +1 DEX
9th Fighter 8 Crane Riposte, Two weapon fighting
10th Fighter 9 Weapon Training
11th Fighter 10 Combat Reflexes, Greater Disarm
12th Fighter 11 Counterattack, +1 DEX
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So, let's take this a somewhat different direction. What gestalts well with Swordlord? I'm applying to a Kingmaker gestalt game, and I'm definitely going Swordlord on one side for the flavor, if nothing else. And I like being able to boost my AC into orbit, even if offense is a little low. But here's the trick: this particular game only allows an archetype on one side, so the other half of the gestalt will be a vanilla class. Magus and Warpriest seem obvious choices, since they break action economy, which is one of the major limiters in gestalt. Monk, too, seems like a good choice. Other thoughts?
Up rogue pick up the debit feats and go to town with sneak attacks
Is the Swashbuckler not the obvious choice it seems? I can't say I've had a proper look, but it's the class I'd start looking at for a swordlord.