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For a slightly different Monk dip the Maneuver Master is worth a look. For one, you can take Improved Disarm without having to take Combat Expertise first. Secondly, Flurry of Maneuvers lets you add a free disarm attempt at the end of a full attack action - this would work beautifully with the Aldori's Disarming Strike. And, of course, there's still all the little sweeteners like class skills and Improved Unarmed Strike.
I don't know that it's better than the Master of Many Styles, but it's another route and you can still pick up Crane Style and Crane Wing along the way, albeit at later levels.
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This is my Aldori Swordlord build I'm running through PFS at the moment. I've fallen into most of your "traps" (finesse, aldori dueling mastery, duelist) but I think I've managed to do so in a not-completely-horrible way.
Str 13, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 12
Human
Lvl 1 Aldori Swordlord - Exotic Weapon proficiency, Weapon finesse, weapon focus
Lvl 2 Aldori Swordlord - Quick draw, Bravery
Lvl 3 Maneuver Master - Improved Disarm, Equipment trick: Combat Scabbard, Flurry of maneuvers, Stunning fist, Improved unarmed strike
Lvl 4 Aldori Swordlord - Defensive Parry +1
Lvl 5 Aldori Swordlord - Dodge, Crane Style
Lvl 6 Aldori Swordlord - Disarming Strike, Weapon training +1
Lvl 7 Aldori Swordlord - Crane Wing, Aldori Dueling Mastery
Lvl 8 Aldori Swordlord - Steel Net, Defensive Parry +2
Lvl 9 Duelist - Mobility, Canny defence +1, Precise strike +1
Lvl 10 Duelist - Canny defence +2, Precise strike +2, Parry, Improved reaction
Lvl 11 Duelist - Crane riposte, Canny defence +3, Precise strike +3, Enhanced mobility
Lvl 12 Duelist - Combat reflexes, Grace, Canny defence +4, Precise strike +4
Going with maneuver master rather than master of many styles does delay crane wing by a few levels but I think the benefits of a free disarm at the end of a full attack and getting improved disarm without having to get combat expertise make it worth it. Not having combat expertise means I don't go down the path of spring attack and whirlwind attack, but I don't have the feats to do so anyway.
Getting Aldori Dueling Mastery is a necessity for the duelist build, but it'd be a half decent feat without all the pre-requisites and I'm getting them all anyway.
As for going into Duelist for the last few levels, even that I don't think is completely horrible. As this is for PFS and I'm only losing two feats. I think that's outweighed by what the Duelist gets, in particular +4 AC and +4 damage which, as I read precise strike, would apply on a disarming strike as well.
I can certainly see ways I could optimise this but it has so far been fun to play and I think it's going to have an awful lot of style to it.
Thoughts?
What about Step Up and Strike? This would really enhance your ability to maintain yourself with the enemy, gain extra attacks, always take full-round attacks, in addition to making you a formidable flanker since you can move 10 feet.
This is my Aldori Swordlord build I'm running through PFS at the moment. I've fallen into most of your "traps" (finesse, aldori dueling mastery, duelist) but I think I've managed to do so in a not-completely-horrible way.
Str 13, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 12
HumanLvl 1 Aldori Swordlord - Exotic Weapon proficiency, Weapon finesse, weapon focus
Lvl 2 Aldori Swordlord - Quick draw, BraveryLvl 3 Maneuver Master - Improved Disarm, Equipment trick: Combat Scabbard, Flurry of maneuvers, Stunning fist, Improved unarmed strike
Lvl 4 Aldori Swordlord - Defensive Parry +1
Lvl 5 Aldori Swordlord - Dodge, Crane Style
Lvl 6 Aldori Swordlord - Disarming Strike, Weapon training +1
Lvl 7 Aldori Swordlord - Crane Wing, Aldori Dueling Mastery
Lvl 8 Aldori Swordlord - Steel Net, Defensive Parry +2
Lvl 9 Duelist - Mobility, Canny defence +1, Precise strike +1
Lvl 10 Duelist - Canny defence +2, Precise strike +2, Parry, Improved reaction
Lvl 11 Duelist - Crane riposte, Canny defence +3, Precise strike +3, Enhanced mobility
Lvl 12 Duelist - Combat reflexes, Grace, Canny defence +4, Precise strike +4
Going with maneuver master rather than master of many styles does delay crane wing by a few levels but I think the benefits of a free disarm at the end of a full attack and getting improved disarm without having to get combat expertise make it worth it. Not having combat expertise means I don't go down the path of spring attack and whirlwind attack, but I don't have the feats to do so anyway.
Getting Aldori Dueling Mastery is a necessity for the duelist build, but it'd be a half decent feat without all the pre-requisites and I'm getting them all anyway.
As for going into Duelist for the last few levels, even that I don't think is completely horrible. As this is for PFS and I'm only losing two feats. I think that's outweighed by what the Duelist gets, in particular +4 AC and +4 damage which, as I read precise strike, would apply on a disarming strike as well.
I can certainly see...
Instead of going into Duelist. You could pick up Power Attack with your Strength at 13. At Level 8, that would be +6 to damage with a -3 to hit. You could then go through The Aldori Sword Fighter tree and pick up the extra feats.
It looks fun.
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Instead of going into Duelist. You could pick up Power Attack with your Strength at 13. At Level 8, that would be +6 to damage with a -3 to hit. You could then go through The Aldori Sword Fighter tree and pick up the extra feats.
The only problem with power attack is that using two hands means I lose most of the benefits of the Aldori Swordlord class. Power attack one handed would (at +8 BAB, as I'm not going to get to +12 due to my monk dip) be at -2 for +4. Decent, but precise strike is slightly better.
Nothing to say I can't take power attack with precise strike, though. I might get an odd look from my GM but RAW I don't think it's ruled out.
It looks fun.
My thoughts exactly. The Aldori is just so damned stylish.
Instead of going into Duelist. You could pick up Power Attack with your Strength at 13. At Level 8, that would be +6 to damage with a -3 to hit. You could then go through The Aldori Sword Fighter tree and pick up the extra feats.The only problem with power attack is that using two hands means I lose most of the benefits of the Aldori Swordlord class. Power attack one handed would (at +8 BAB, as I'm not going to get to +12 due to my monk dip) be at -2 for +4. Decent, but precise strike is slightly better.
Nothing to say I can't take power attack with precise strike, though. I might get an odd look from my GM but RAW I don't think it's ruled out.
It looks fun.My thoughts exactly. The Aldori is just so damned stylish.
Exactly.
I pointed out the Power attack option if you felt the lack of feats. A BAB of 8 one handed would be -3/+6. (I think you meant 8th level, but I figured I'd ask.) It was more something to think about, as it would give you that bonus damage earlier than the Duelist.
I am really curious to see what they do with the Aldori Prestige class coming out at the end of Summer.
ETA: There could be those rare instances where you do two hand it, but I would imagine that would not be often. Of course nothing stops you from going duelist and snagging Power Attack, not sure where you would pick it up though.
I usually GM, but one of my players has the Kingmaker AP and I am hoping he steps up to run it as I would love the opportunity to play a Sword lord and that would be a great setting for it.
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The only problem with power attack is that using two hands means I lose most of the benefits of the Aldori Swordlord class. Power attack one handed would (at +8 BAB, as I'm not going to get to +12 due to my monk dip) be at -2 for +4. Decent, but precise strike is slightly better.
Nothing to say I can't take power attack with precise strike, though. I might get an odd look from my GM but RAW I don't think it's ruled out.
Exactly.
I pointed out the Power attack option if you felt the lack of feats. A BAB of 8 one handed would be -3/+6. (I think you meant 8th level, but I figured I'd ask.) It was more something to think about, as it would give you that bonus damage earlier than the Duelist.
Yeah, my bad. My maths failed me there...
The only feat I could possibly drop is the Equipment trick, and I'm loathe to do that. There's just something incredibly cool about being able to flip an enemy's sword out of their hand and into my scabbard.
I guess this is one of the reasons finesse and duelist are considered a trap. They're very feat intensive.
I usually GM, but one of my players has the Kingmaker AP and I am hoping he steps up to run it as I would love the opportunity to play a Sword lord and that would be a great setting for it.
That would fit quite nicely. Don't forget to post your build if you do!
The only problem with power attack is that using two hands means I lose most of the benefits of the Aldori Swordlord class. Power attack one handed would (at +8 BAB, as I'm not going to get to +12 due to my monk dip) be at -2 for +4. Decent, but precise strike is slightly better.
Nothing to say I can't take power attack with precise strike, though. I might get an odd look from my GM but RAW I don't think it's ruled out.
Exactly.
I pointed out the Power attack option if you felt the lack of feats. A BAB of 8 one handed would be -3/+6. (I think you meant 8th level, but I figured I'd ask.) It was more something to think about, as it would give you that bonus damage earlier than the Duelist.
Yeah, my bad. My maths failed me there...
The only feat I could possibly drop is the Equipment trick, and I'm loathe to do that. There's just something incredibly cool about being able to flip an enemy's sword out of their hand and into my scabbard.
I guess this is one of the reasons finesse and duelist are considered a trap. They're very feat intensive.
I usually GM, but one of my players has the Kingmaker AP and I am hoping he steps up to run it as I would love the opportunity to play a Sword lord and that would be a great setting for it.That would fit quite nicely. Don't forget to post your build if you do!
Equipment Trick is a good time. I played a couple of sessions in someone elses campaign with a Sword Saint Samurai that made heavy use of equipment trick. (Basically I beat up people with a combat scabbard, and then when I met a worth opponent, I would draw the blade and do ijitsu strike. In the following rounds I would utilize the scabbard in my off-hand with the swift actions to do all sorts of fun stuff.)
First of all: nice guide.
For builds featuring defensive fighting Halfling has now become an option thanks to these nice feats:
Cautious Fighter (Combat)
You care more about survival than victory.
Prerequisite: Half ling.
Benefit: When fighting defensively or using total
defense, your dodge bonus to AC increases by 2.
Blundering Defense (Combat)
Your feverish and sometimes comical defensive techniques
offer enough distraction to aid allies.
Prerequisites: Cautious Fighter, half ling.
Benefit: Whenever you fight defensively or use the total
defense action, allies gain a luck bonus to AC and CMD
equal to 1/2 the dodge bonus you gain from the action
you are taking. Allies only gain this bonus while they are
adjacent to you.
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WOW I really like the maneuver master build. Put in Blue in the guide, and added a build that uses it to the list at the end. The real advantage here isn't the just the extra disarm attempt, though that alone would rate it blue. It's that with the ability to pick up improved disarm sans prereqs, you've eliminated a feat tax and made INT a dump stat again.
The build I added showcases a Gladiator-based swordlord: the points from dumping INT go into Charisma, and we pick up Osyluth's Guile for even higher AC when using steel net. This build is a beast at performance combat. I like the build so much I think I'll use it as my backup character for Kingmaker!
Flynn Walker, Thank you for sharing the build! I'm super happy.
You're welcome. I know that I'm not nearly making the most out of it with what I'm doing (finesse and duelist getting in the way) so I'm interested to see where people go with it.
A dip into the Wander Monk (ARG) gives you an Exotic Weapon Proficiency instead the monk bonus feat.
It's too bad the Aldori Dueling sword isn't a monk weapon as well, it's not really any different that Temple Sword except you can finesse the Aldori sword where the Temple sword has the trip quality.
In my game I allowed the Aldori Dueling Sword to be a monk weapon as I had monastery of Weapon Master Monks who specialized in the Aldori Dueling sword in Mivon when I ran the King Maker game. I haven't had a player use this but since I used it against them it became a house rule.
Those feats will likely work better in a DD build where you still have decent damage output. But consider this a Halfling Aldori with Blundering Defense and Bodyguard combined with the helpful trait grants +8 AC to all adjacent allies while likely having an AC in the upper 30ies himself.
Of course his DPR sucks but the fact he's buffing everyone else so madly might make him a viable target after all.
First of all, I've gotta say that this is pretty sweet. The coolest optimization guide I've ever seen, hands-down.
I'm having a bit of an issue with the differences between full attack and full-round actions, especially as they pertain to the swordlord's abilities and fighting defensively. For clarification, I will be stating what I understand to be true, with bolded emphasis on statements that I would like confirmed or corrected.
As I understand it, a full attack action is a subtype of full-round action. Fighting defensively can be done as either a standard action or a full-round action. When used as a full-round action, it allows you to take a full attack action with the associated penalties.
Assuming that the above is correct, Combat Expertise may not be a total suckfest, at least at higher levels. At BAB 8 Combat Expertise will grant a -2/+2. Crane Riposte specifically says you only take a -1 penalty for fighting defensively. Combined with the wording of Steel Net, which says that your defensive fighting penalties are decreased by 2. So, fighting defensively (which grants a +2 AC bonus) with Crane Style/Crane Riposte + Combat Expertise would yield a -3/+5. Applying Steel Net yields a -1/+7. In the event that fighting defensively grants a full attack, the wording of Defensive Parry would turn this into a -1/+9. At BAB 12, this would become -2/+11 (due to the extra increase for both Combat Expertise and Defensive Parry, assuming that these come from fighter levels).
It's not much, but if you have to take Combat Expertise anyway, it might not be pure feat tax.
Great guide. Thanks!
Not quite on topic, but the character images that you use for this guide, where would I be able to find larger versions of them?
I'd love to use them as character tokens in a future campaign.
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Having had a look through the PDF, the Aldori Swordlord prestige class is absolutely beautiful for a Dex swordlord. Dex to damage and the Aldori Dueling Mastery feat at first level - worth a dip for that alone.
I haven't thought enough about how it compares to further levels in the archetype though, or how it would stack up for a Str-focused build.
Thoughts?
I'll just add that Crane style is nearly mandatory. You have a free hand, at least reap all the benefit that you can with it. Combined with steel net makes your defensive combat have no penality and granting you +6 AC and free deflect. Just skip the last one of the 3, it utterly usless for you.
My math is giving me "no penalty with +5 AC."
Normal Full-Action Defensive Fighting is -4 Atk/+2 ACCrane style reduces the penalty to attack by 2 and gives you a +1 Dodge AC bonus, which makes a total of "-2 Atk/+3 AC"
Steel Net reduces penalties for Full-Round defensive fighting by 2 more and increases the dodge bonus by 2 more, for a total of "-0 Atk/ +5 AC."
Am I missing something?
I'll just add that Crane style is nearly mandatory. You have a free hand, at least reap all the benefit that you can with it. Combined with steel net makes your defensive combat have no penality and granting you +6 AC and free deflect. Just skip the last one of the 3, it utterly usless for you.My math is giving me "no penalty with +5 AC."
Normal Full-Action Defensive Fighting is -4 Atk/+2 AC
Crane style reduces the penalty to attack by 2 and gives you a +1 Dodge AC bonus, which makes a total of "-2 Atk/+3 AC"
Steel Net reduces penalties for Full-Round defensive fighting by 2 more and increases the dodge bonus by 2 more, for a total of "-0 Atk/ +5 AC."Am I missing something?
When you have 3 ranks in acrobatics you gain another +1 AC when fighting defensively.
Not sure if it has been mentioned before, but you can get Crane Riposte early. It requires two levels of Master of Many Styles.
Here's the advancement for a human:
1-Fighter1 (Power Attack, Dodge, Fighter Bonus: Improved Unarmed Strike)
2-Fighter2 (Crane Wing)
3-Fighter3 (Combat Expertise)
4-Monk1 (Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Crane Wing)
5-Monk2 (Crane Riposte)
6
Here's the trick: By taking IUS as a fighter bonus feat, you can retrain it into another combat feat at level 6 (fighter level 4). You get to keep the Crane Style feats, since you still have the Monk's unarmed strike ability, which gives you the IUS feat. This way, you have Crane Riposte a lot earlier than normal and you get you investment back right next level.
As a side note, the earliest you can finish any style feat tree is 3rd level. You start with the Unarmed Fighter archetype, which gets a style feat at first level and two levels of Master of Many Styles, which gets you the other two feats in the style. By then, you'll usually be able to use your level three feat to get a second style feat for use with Master of Many Styles.
Having had a look through the PDF, the Aldori Swordlord prestige class is absolutely beautiful for a Dex swordlord. Dex to damage and the Aldori Dueling Mastery feat at first level - worth a dip for that alone.
I haven't thought enough about how it compares to further levels in the archetype though, or how it would stack up for a Str-focused build.
Thoughts?
My one problem with the prestige class is that it now takes away the opportunity to use unarmed strikes with it if you want to use the deft strike ability. Can you unequip unarmed strikes? Or does this mean as long as you don't use unarmed strike that round you can use deft strike (which I assume is how it's meant to be)? Also, how does that tie into the combat style feats (like crane wing) since flavour-wise you are using your unarmed strike to deflect? I definitely like the prestige class for its uniqueness, but you might as well not try for that 2 level dip into Master of Many styles if you plan on taking it. As for me, I've thoroughly enjoyed my strength build with snake fang and don't plan on touching the prestige class.
My one problem with the prestige class is that it now takes away the opportunity to use unarmed strikes with it if you want to use the deft strike ability. Can you unequip unarmed strikes? Or does this mean as long as you don't use unarmed strike that round you can use deft strike (which I assume is how it's meant to be)? Also, how does that tie into the combat style feats (like crane wing) since flavour-wise you are using your unarmed strike to deflect? I definitely like the prestige class for its uniqueness, but you might as well not try for that 2 level dip into Master of Many styles if you plan on taking it. As for me, I've thoroughly enjoyed my strength build with snake fang and don't plan on touching the prestige class.Having had a look through the PDF, the Aldori Swordlord prestige class is absolutely beautiful for a Dex swordlord. Dex to damage and the Aldori Dueling Mastery feat at first level - worth a dip for that alone.
I haven't thought enough about how it compares to further levels in the archetype though, or how it would stack up for a Str-focused build.
Thoughts?
So
1.) Basically you can't TWF with an unarmed strike and an aldori dueling sword and still use the deft strike ability.
2.) There is nothing in the description of Crane wing that states you are using an unarmed strike at any point when deflecting an attack.
My (somewhat non-organized) thoughts on the prestige class in particular and aldori sword lords in general:
1.) Dex build looks mighty fine, right about now, but keep 13 str for power attack so you can attack two handed and get the full bonus, then later let go of one of your hands as a free action.
2.) Hmm, with crane style, the fighter archetype and the prestige class you can eliminate 6 points of penalty, and you only have to elminate 4 points to get no-penalty fighting defensively. Maybe take combat expertise and use 2 points to offset the eventual -4 penalty to hit (so its -2 for +4 AC, so eventually it's +10 ac for -2 penalty to hit, worth it?)
3.) Maneuver master doesn't stack with Master of many styles, so I'd probably take maneuver master and pick up the style feats with fighter bonus feats. (As you can't go the other way), I wonder what the best way to build this would be?
prototype00
1) I realise that crane wing doesn't specifically say you use your unarmed strike, hence the "flavour-wise" part of my sentence.
2) I don't think you would be able to offset combat expertise penalties with the bonuses from the feats and the class.
1) I realise that crane wing doesn't specifically say you use your unarmed strike, hence the "flavour-wise" part of my sentence.
2) I don't think you would be able to offset combat expertise penalties with the bonuses from the feats and the class.
1: Yes I know, I read what you wrote. I'm just pointing out that if it doesn't say, why put extra complexity onto it by assuming that something concerning flavor is going to affect how the rules work?
2: The prestige class has penalty reductions as well, and they apply to combat expertise and fighting defensively.
prototype00
Hmm, I don't think anyone has mentioned tiger style as a possible second style feat. Being able to put your penalty from power attack into your AC means a lot less when your AC is stratospheric to begin with.
prototype00
Hmm interesting feat here:
Draconic Defender: You know that massive dodge bonus to AC you're getting from both fighting defensively and combat expertise? You can also bestow that upon one ally within reach as a natural armor bonus.
Also the archon style line of feats look interesting (but insist on having the allies adjacent to you before you can help them)
Good for a more team oriented swordlord, I suppose.
prototype00
I know I'm spamming but the forum won't let me edit my old posts.
For the PrC there are a couple of nice breakpoints built in. Since you don't get Weapon training or extra feats while in it, it's not a bad idea to just reach the breakpoints and get back to figher.
Lvl1: Dex to damage and Aldori dueling master for free? Nice.
Lvl4: Adaptive tactics is the penalty lowerer for the Swordlord PrC,
Con-Only gives -1 penalty, second -1 comes at 8th level
Pro: Applies to Combat expertise as well, which the Swordlord archetype doesn't
(Also a chance to use your sense motive for even more AC/to hit as a swift action)
Lvl 8: See lvl4.
prototype00
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After taking another look through, I think I'm on the whole underwhelmed by the prestige class. As Prototype has said, the main breakproint is level 1 - I don't know if there's a real point to more than a one level dip (which, in fairness, I would want to take as soon as possible at level 6). None of the other abilities are equal to bonus feats and the (in my opinion) superior abilities of the fighter archetype.
Were it not for the dex to damage ability, the fairly hefty pre-requisites would make me avoid the prestige class altogether.
On the plus side, at least the non-dex aldoris aren't really missing out on anything.
Ahh, totally didn't catch the combat expertise part. Silly me. I think I'm with you guys as well at the level 1 break point. I would much rather have the extra feats.
I need to pick up the guide with my next book buy.
I am also curious to see this guide get updated with the Aldori Prestige Class.
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I've been playing this build in Kingmaker for a few months; just hit level 3 last night. : )
Half-Elf • +2 Dex, Ancestral Arms gives EWP (Aldori Dueling Sword), Multi-Talented gives two favoured classes (Ranger and Fighter)
Traits • Sword Scion (of course!), Rich Parents (to get Mwk sword & armour)
Str14 Dex20 Con11 Int15 Wis10 Cha15 (rolled stats, 15 could have gone on Con but I'm role-playing : D)
1st • Rgr1, Favoured Enemy (Human), Weapon Finesse, EWP as above
2nd • Rgr2, Combat Style-Two Handed Weapon for Power Attack bonus feat
3rd • Ftr1 (Weapon Master archetype), Quick Draw, Weapon Focus (ADS)
4th • Ftr2, Weapon Guard, Aldori Dueling Mastery, +1 Con
5th • Ftr3, Weapon Training 1 (ADS), Dodge
6th • Ftr4, Mobility
At this point I qualify for the Duelist PrC, and do +1 damage/level, and +1 AC/level up to +3 (my lvl8 stat bonus will be Int)
I will use my ADS in two hands and using Power Attack, giving these numbers (not counting any gear I pick up later, just the Mwk ADS and Mwk studded leather. I'll get a mithral shirt as soon as I can, and get my sword and armour enchanted ASAP)
Level • Att Bon • Damage • AC • Init
1st. +8. 1d8+3. 18. +5
2nd. +8. 1d8+6. 18. +5
3rd. +10. 1d8+6. 18. +5
4th. +10. 1d8+9. 19. +7
5th. +12. 1d8+10. 20. +7
6th. +13. 1d8+10. 20. +7
From level 7 till level 16 I'll take Duelist. My attack bonus will increase by level except for levels 8, 12 and 16, my damage will increase by one per level with an extra +3 at levels 8, 12 and 16, my AC will increase by +1 per level until I run out of Int bonus (min +3). Special abilities increase my initiative, and my AC when fighting defensively. My feats at 7th, 9th and 11th will be Weapon Specialisition, Improved Critical and Spring Attack, but I haven't decided the order yet.
When I designed this character I didn't know about the Aldori Swordlord archetype; I do now, but I'm content with Weapon Master. What is that feat you had alongside Sword Scion? (something) Defender? I can't find it. Also, where do I find the Aldori Swordlord PrC?
This build has NO freedom of choice for feats until level7! But I'm enjoying playing her immensely! : )
Any comments would be appreciated!
Threatening Defender
You know how to avoid a blow while still maintaining your offensive posture.
Benefit: When you use Combat Expertise, reduce the number you subtract from your melee attack rolls by 1.
This is from Pathfinder Companion: Cheliax, Empire of Devils
Personally I think it is a solid trait but not a must have one.
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Threatening Defender
You know how to avoid a blow while still maintaining your offensive posture.Benefit: When you use Combat Expertise, reduce the number you subtract from your melee attack rolls by 1.
This is from Pathfinder Companion: Cheliax, Empire of Devils
Personally I think it is a solid trait but not a must have one.
Cheers!
Is that a campaign trait? If it is, you can't have that and Sword Scion on the same PC, and I know which one I'd choose!