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It won't break the game, but it will make it less challenging. Depending on your play style, you may want to beef up some encounters or reduce the amount of magic awards.
Remember that just about everything (attack bonus, saves, skills, damage, spell DCs) fall out from the base 6 stats. When you give players more stat points to play with, it pumps them up across the board in capabilities.
I was an old school gamer from the days when you rolled 3d6 and built your character around the results. I let my players use the 25 point buy for Carrion Crown, which is the first Paizo AP I have run, and I have been upgrading encounters ever since. When I start running the Rise of the Runelords Anniversary I am absolutely going with the recommended 15 point buy.
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It won't break the game, it'll just make the MAD (multiple ability dependent) classes slightly less underpowered compared to the SAD (single ability dependent) classes.
Throwing in on the Won't break but be ready to upgrade camp.
I would never let player begin with 25 points.
I play this way.
Each player can make 6 rolls of 3d6 - rolls lower than 6 is rerolled. First strength, then dex, then con and so on. A single roll for each stat.
Now. If I have 4 players we now have 4 empty sheets with only stats. They are now able to trade whole sheets beetween each other. I also roll a sheet for them sometimes.
Now. The players can choose to have one of theese builds or simply make a 19 point build.
In this way there is a bigger chance for more unique builds with less optimization focus. Maybe a wizard with +2 str or cha.
This is really funny. But if all the rolls are bad.. there is always the 19 point build for a more safe build to fall back on.
I would never let player begin with 25 points.
I play this way.
Each player can make 6 rolls of 3d6 - rolls lower than 6 is rerolled. First strength, then dex, then con and so on. A single roll for each stat.
Now. If I have 4 players we now have 4 empty sheets with only stats. They are now able to trade whole sheets beetween each other. I also roll a sheet for them sometimes.
Now. The players can choose to have one of theese builds or simply make a 19 point build.
In this way there is a bigger chance for more unique builds with less optimization focus. Maybe a wizard with +2 str or cha.
This is really funny. But if all the rolls are bad.. there is always the 19 point build for a more safe build to fall back on.
You made me laugh, thanks.
How good are your players? If you've got new players who are likely to make mistakes both in building their characters and in play decisions, 25 points might keep things more fun without you having to swoop in and save the day.
If you've got experienced players who know what they're up against, go with the recommended point buy.
No, it won't break it...it won't even bend it really. Players that are going to break the game can do it just fine at 15 point buy, the same as they can at 25 - in my experience, at least, what happens is that the higher point buy games end up with players that are more well rounded, not better at their special thing. They're gonna build to be the best at that thing no matter how many points they have.
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I can tell you 25 point buy brakes the CR system. 20 point buy bends the CR system. 15 point buy is what the CR system is based on.
In PFSP 20 point buy characters. Are much more powerful then they need to be. This is becous you have people new to pathfinder and none optimizers playing. With optimization you can brake PFSP with almost any type of character.
25point buy allows my players to survive me. I try to tone down my tactics but even then I can be brutal. Otherwise every session would be a TPK. - Gauss
Edit: P.S. If my players were more experienced then I would use smaller buys accordingly. 25point buy is to help a relatively inexperienced group.
I would say it doesn't break the CR system either.
If you do a 25-point buy, when you want fights to be a little stiffer for the players, just apply the advanced template without modifying the CR for experience.
I literally use 108 point buy...all 18s and still have died 15 times in the same campaign. I'm not trolling, that's the truth.
Stats don't matter as much as you think.
I literally use 108 point buy...all 18s and still have died 15 times in the same campaign. I'm not trolling, that's the truth.
Stats don't matter as much as you think.
That would actually rather be fun to try.
My friend and I normally stick to a 25-point buy system and have never had issues with it. I, personally, find it especially nice if you are playing a M.A.D. class.
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I will tell you the truth and pretty much echo What most people have said. PB were made so that you had more control over the stat line between characters, the problem was that some classes relied on different amounts of stats, truth be told the classes that will break the game can do so on a 5 PB let alone a 20 or 25, because those classes/characters Are SAD, but MAD classes/characters will simply be survivable. Seriously try it, You'll notice the only difference between a 5 pb wizard and a 25 pb wizard are the dump stats, That int is still going to be where it needs too and feats will handle the rest because they truly dont need them.
Another thing you'll notice pb influence what characters you will see in a game. The higher ones have a much better chance of unique or at least different characters class wise and stat wise then 5, 10, or 15 pb. For example you would be hard pressed to see a monk on 15 pb or below that wasnt acheing from all the BS they had to do, but 20 pb and higher, more seem to arise.
15 vs 25 pt buy really is not such a huge difference
For example with 15 pts you can have
8, 10, 10, 12, 14, 16
25:
10, 10, 11, 12, 14, 18
Basicly you get a +1 on the higherst stat and don't have to dump one.
I just made those two arrays quickly, i'm sure you can spread it differently too avoiding the 18 and get more increases elsewhere, but that only helps MAD classes a bit and only is a +1 here and there too.
It's really not such a huge difference as some people make it to be.
Edit:
I will tell you the truth and pretty much echo What most people have said, PB were made so that you had more control over the stat line between characters, the problem was that some classes relied on different amounts of stats truth be told the classes that will break the game can do so on a 5 PB let alone a 20 or 25, because those classes/characters Are SAD, but MAD classes/characters will simply be survivable. seriously try it, You'll notice the only difference between a 5 pb wizard and a 25 pb wizard are the dump stats, That int is still going to be where it needs too and feats will handle the rest because they truly dont need them.
Another thing you'll notice pb influence what characters you will see in a game. The higher ones have a much better chance of unique or at least different characters class wise and stat wise then 5, 10, or 15 pb. For example you would be hard pressed to see a monk on 15 pb or below that wasnt acheing from all the BS they had to do, but 20 pb and higher, more seem to arise.
This just formulates what I was trying to say, just better.
One option if you want to go for 25 is just to apply some limits to it as well.
Things such as:
No stat higher than 18 after racials, no stat lower than 7 after racials, only one stat below ten, or whatever.
More points *can* be used to really round out a character so that you aren't necessarily stuck with the barbarian who's dumb as a box of hammers or so you can have the seriously MAD characters still able to fulfill their role.. Just cap the "Oh goodie now I can get 3 18's if I ditch everything tlse to 7" crap. (didn't do the PB math, just picked random numbers)
-S
You can't. 2 16s and 1 18 is what you can afford with all others dumped to 7 and 25 pt buy :)
That sounds extreme agian, but with 15 pts you can get 7,7,7,15,16,16. (so drop the 18 to 16 and one of the 16 to 15... again no HUGE difference)
And you got 3 7s, which is bad
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It isn't your point buy stats that break games; it's the players that do it :)
It isn't your point buy stats that break games; it's the players that do it :)
This.
how big is your party too? if its 3 or 4 players, a higher point build won't be as bad. if you've got a full six players, with a 25 point build, it can get out of hand and be a little harder to challenge players with store bought mods.
While I like the store bought adventures I don't use them without rebuilding many of the encounters. I find that many enemies are built along lines which I find to be a bit dumb. Why the prevalence of Improved initiative when it has no bearing on spells? etc etc. Archer builds with feats such as weapon focus (long sword). The list goes on.
If I did not rebuild encounters I would have my players use a 15point buy. - Gauss
I have been playing a 25 point build game, with no buying abilities below 10. We are playing Jade Regent. It has been a good game and still challenging with near TPK.
We have 2 fighters, cleric, monk.
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(sniffles) My group will never use 25 point buy again. After the last game we use it. The DM hade to ramp up the encounters so much. He spent more time getting prepared for the game then he did ruining it. And that was a AP.
It could have something to do with the fact. That I know how to optimize well. And I went out of my way to make a character. To brake the game as a point. Bards are just evil. As a DM I recommend killing them off first. This build is not possible on a 15 point buy (FYI).
As for MAD, and SAD characters. With a lower point buy you will not see as many monks. Well to tell you the truth you will not see many monks even with a high point buy. There are players that like monks. Over all the monk adds little to a group. That is way you don't see many of them. With a paladin, or ranger even tho they are MAD. You see them all over the place as they add some ability to a group. That are needed, because the paladin (combat, face, healing), and ranger(skills, combat, healing). Are roles that need filled in the party and they can fill more then one. The monk fills combat and what else? For MAD character that is the main reason you do not see meny of them.
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It depends on whether you have players that will take two 7s in dump stats whether they have 15 pts or 25 pts. No matter how many points you give them in this case, it wont result in a more well rounded character, just one with a higher primary stats.
If there is a problem at all with higher point buys it is usually in the first few levels, where having a 20+ str and/or having an extra +2 to a save DC for monsters can be make an adventure non-challenging. It can also really skew skill checks early on.
On the flip side, if you are doing a 25 pt buy to let characters have heroic stats and more well rounded characters, and are worried about balance, you might want to put some restrictions on how the points are spent, whether that be minimum stat requirements or maximum starting stats.
Most definitely though your monks and paladins will thank you for your 25 point buy. Even in lower point buy games, I usually let monks (non zen archers) have a larger point buy, just because they sort of need it to be on a level playing field.
Speaking from experience with large groups, I don't recommend anything higher than a 15 pt buy if you have a group that is 6 or more people. The action economoy combined with the power bump makes it really hard to up the challenge level without risking things becoming too lethal.
Generally, I think optimisation makes a vastly more profound difference than point buy. A 15 point controller wizard in mid to high levels will blow away a 25 point anything else that's not built as well.
Some classes can leverage their stats more than others. Some players know how to push them even further.
Yes 5 vs 4 players makes a far bigger impact on balance than 15 vs 20 vs 25 point-buy. Action economy, damage, total party HPs etc, all get shifted by a single additional partymember. Raise it to 6 people, and you can't really use any of the planned encounters.
So I wonder how many of those people that say "I'll never use 25 pt buy again because it broke my last game" were actually playing with more than the 4 people?
Short answer: I am more comfortable with a 20 point buy.
Eases MAD but makes ability score selection still quite meaningful.
I did a 20 point buy with my group, plus a free +2 to a single stat that does not already have a racial modifier (so no +4, and no negating a racial penalty)... which comes pretty close to a 25 point buy. (The free +2 really helps breaking the mold of 'Halfling wizards suck... they don't get the all-important buff to Int')
Can't say I got broken characters out of it... the highest stats in the group are single 18s (one on Cleric's Wis, one on Witch's Int).
It did prevent players from dumping stats (there is a single 8, and a single 9 among all of the group's stats), and there are a couple 12s to 14s in usually secondary stats.
So, if used with inexperienced players, or those who don't minmax to the brim, I don't think the higher point buys to be game breaking. In fact, as has been written. The impact of a fifth (or even sixth) player is much stronger than the upgrade from 15 to 20, or even 25.
Raise it to 6 people, and you can't really use any of the planned encounters.
Amen to that. However, adding 50% more mooks, or providing a lieutenant (who is 2-3 CR lower than his boss) to single high level bosses tends to rectify the situation quite nicely.
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(sniffles) My group will never use 25 point buy again. After the last game we use it. The DM hade to ramp up the encounters so much. He spent more time getting prepared for the game then he did ruining it. And that was a AP.
It could have something to do with the fact. That I know how to optimize well. And I went out of my way to make a character. To brake the game as a point. Bards are just evil. As a DM I recommend killing them off first. This build is not possible on a 15 point buy (FYI).
As for MAD, and SAD characters. With a lower point buy you will not see as many monks. Well to tell you the truth you will not see many monks even with a high point buy. There are players that like monks. Over all the monk adds little to a group. That is way you don't see many of them. With a paladin, or ranger even tho they are MAD. You see them all over the place as they add some ability to a group. That are needed, because the paladin (combat, face, healing), and ranger(skills, combat, healing). Are roles that need filled in the party and they can fill more then one. The monk fills combat and what else? For MAD character that is the main reason you do not see meny of them.
O_X
My own experience is that the item creation feats will break a game faster than even a 30 point buy. Nothing seems to amp up player power like allowing them serious control over what toys they get to have. I'd probably allow a 40 point buy before a character with a pile of item creaton feats.
Yeah, my own experience reflects this as well.
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It could have something to do with the fact. That I know how to optimize well. And I went out of my way to make a character. To brake the game as a point.I think that last part has more to do with the game's failure than anything else.
No it has every thing to do with a 25 point buy. It is almost impossible to brake the game on a 15 point buy, But it is easy to brake with a 25 point buy. Pleas try and make a character that can brake the game on a 15 point buy. Doing it on a 25 point buy is not even hard. And yes ability scores make it happen. The game system is based off ability scores as it main function. So when you increase the base line of the game it self. The problem becomes compounded. As you increase in level and gain access to items that increases the base line even more.
MAD vs. SAD
On low point buy SAD function almost the same as on a higher point buy.
On a low point buy MAD characters function with the understanding that one character can not do every thing.
On a high point buy MAD character function way over the power curve assumed in the game. They where made with limited resources in mind. When you increase there resources it removes the option of playing SAD characters because. MAD characters will function much better then them on a high point buy.
Using monk as your base for MAD vs. SAD. Dose not work. As monks are on the lower end of the power scale for classes. Along with Rogue who is not a MAD class. So you need to look at all MAD Classes. To find out if a higher point buy relay helps them out.
SAD: The higher point buy dos not affect them as much.
Barbarian, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Rogue, Sorcerer, Wizard, Alchemist, Cavalier, Oracle, Summoner, Witch
MAD: The increase in point buy helps them more. To the point where some of the become over powered.
Bard, (Combat focused)Cleric, (combat focused)Druid, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, (combat focused)Alchemist, Inquisitor, Magus,
(combat focused)Oracle.
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Thanks to everyone here who are blaming the point buy system for breaking the game. You've given me a good laugh today.
It's been mathematically proven to "not be a big deal."
If a GM's game breaks due to an extra 5 or 10% success rate among his players' rolls, than he never really had much control over his game to begin with. :/
@calagnar: You do realise you pretty much invalidated your own argument by stating that SAD classes barely take a hit from 15 pts over 25 pts. So if a 25 pts wizard can break (not brake) the game a 15 pts one can too. Or any of those you listed there.
Or are you honestly saying the only classes able to break a game are MAD classes? They're probably the least likely to do so.
And in what world is a rogue a SAD class?
In my experience high point buys don't break the game. I don't know how much a 25 point buy will trivialize a module since I've never run from a module or AP, but in my game the PCs use a custom stat build that is equivilent to a 25 point buy and I still manage to down a PC (haven't killed one yet though) in almost every combat.
Thanks to everyone here who are blaming the point buy system for breaking the game. You've given me a good laugh today.
It's been mathematically proven to "not be a big deal."
If a GM's game breaks due to an extra 5 or 10% success rate among his players' rolls, than he never really had much control over his game to begin with. :/
There no need to be obnoxious. If they don't agree with you, so be it.
And I say that while agreeing with you. I like 20 points, but 25 points really isn't that big of a deal. What goes missed in these discussions is that with a slightly smaller point buy, the player is naturally encouraged to really make thoughtful and considered choices.
Actually, in some cases I have started the players with a 15 point buy, made them play to first level, and then gave them more "buy points" at second level. That might sound like a pointless gesture, but after a couple fights and encounters they start to have a better sense of the type of character they actually want to play and are happier with their characters long term. Worked like a charm for a monk who could not believe that he could survive without certain ability scores. He kicked ass more than anybody and took less damage than other characters—when he got those additional buy points he didn't feel like he "HAD" to put them in the so-called obvious choices.
But everybody arrives at these conclusions in their own ways, and these posters who are concerned about the balance within their own games are RUNNING the game they want to run. They don't need to share their ideas and perspectives so you can get a cheap laugh. And frankly, you don't sound all that amused. You sound pissed off. Also unnecessary.
I too blamed high point buys once upon a time. I also had lots of item creation feats in use. Stepping back and think about it, and analyzing how things progressed.. I realized that multiple stat-boosting items and high level cloaks of resistance were doing more harm than anything. The players were selling cool and novel loot to just recycle them into more resistance and ability boosters on TOP of a 25 point buy. The combination of those two rule elements was the real culprit.
I discouraged Crafting, and my woes dried up. And the players went back to enjoying the treasure they found. And they still buy stuff, I just make them roll for availability per the Core Rules. It works out though.
Your mileage will vary.
As long as your GMs dial up the monsters, nope.
For instance, GMs can just add the "advanced" template to everything you meet, to compensate.
I play with a dm that has us roll 8 4d6(using top 6), reroll 1s and 2s(untill their not 1s or 2s), and then has us drop the lowest die. needless to say stats are inflated a lot. he puts us against challenging enemies and game balance isn't the issue. I would rather have 10 or 15 buy points because I have had characters who's lowest stat was 14 and everybody could do just about anything. I feel it just takes fun out of the game.
Why don't you guys just make 16 the highest value a PC can have in a stat at creation [before racial mods]?
Solves all the power-gaming and does make better all round characters.