Hm. What does one say in a LGBT community thread? "Boy, I sure do love musical theater?" :)
It's a gamer thread, so I guess what I do whilst being gay and gaming is the thing.
Most of my characters are gay. A minority have concepts that work better if they're asexual or straight instead, so those characters are asexual or straight. Why not? Most straight people play straight characters. I imagine they find it easier to relate to. I am generally drawn to characterization and plot elements that have some affinity to the real world struggles of gay people for the same reason. I've played happy, out characters and angsty closet cases both.
This got me thinking and actually you know what is funny? The sexuality of my characters isn't something that has ever really come up in my games yet. My groups, while doing a decent amount of role playing, tend to focus more on what the character's goals are and what they are doing in relation to the world, it might be interesting to play a game where a character's personal circumstances play a larger role, although I would never introduce that into a game that isn't like that already.
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While I identify as straight, the truth is that I am attracted to people with a pretty face, silky hair, and soft skin regardless of sex. This is difficult to talk about, not because I'm afraid of people ostracizing me, but because I don't want people to misunderstand. I still prefer the feminine figure, I like cute and pretty people. I don't want macho gay guys going after me. I don't really want to and shop with the gay crowd and act like them, because that's not who I am. I'm not the hollywood bisexual stereotype who will bang anything. I still judge people by how pretty they are. I have always found muscles unattractive, so masculine figures definitely bother me. For me, I just don't talk about my interests out of convenience. Too much explaining, and it's not like my life is or ever will be in shambles because I don't talk about it. Sometimes I consider telling people about it, but it just seems like it would take too much work for me to not be misunderstood. Sometimes I hope that I'll meet a girl and be surprised. I really don't know how else to go about it because asking someone if they have a penis would just seem rude.
I find the terms straight or gay or even bisexual too limiting to properly describe my orientation. I have a gay friend who says I'm not gay, so what am I!?
(y*n*)y
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Interesting forum post. Has anyone ever dealt with outright blatant homophobia or, more commonly, what I call "locker room" humor in their games, either from the GM, players, or both?
Example from a real game: "Your PC enter the prison section --"
"Oh, fu#@! Don't drop the soap!"
"Haha! Yeah, your elf better watch it in there, Brian. Or he's gonna get the shaft!"
"Yeah, Brian. And none of that mamsy-pansy safe shooting cr&% your character does all the time. These guys mean serious business, what with no women for so many years."
"Still can't tell if elves are male or female. Or how they like to get it."
"Hey, at least they're gettin' some, Mr. 40 year old virgin, either with pu#^# or fu$#@$ by a f%~$^&!"
"Ass#%$%! At least when I'm fu$#*^$, I know it's a lady, not like that b8$#@ you call your [girlfriend/wife/roommate with benefit]!"
"Fu#$ you, f*#$#^!"Etc. NOTE: Cleaned up the language a bit. I left the group shortly.
Interesting. Though I respect your feelings on the matter, I am not sure everybody would agree that this behavior was homophobic. Locker room, yes. Juvenile and dirty. Even loading dock, as I would say, having long ago worked on a couple of them.
But the soap and the elves are guy talk and nothing I haven't heard from my gay friends. In fact, a beloved gay friend just today repeated his favorite saying of "the only thing more effeminate than a female elf, is a male elf." He makes more gay jokes at our table than anyone. In fact, his language is as salty as anybody's, maybe a bit more than some.
Gandhi said something like "nobody can hurt us without our permission," or some such. Meaning, we get hurt when we take things hurtfully. In this way, I am sort of with Shifty. I used to long for the day when sexuality was a non-issue, when we were all so okay with it that we never mentioned it. But I also feel like we gain so much from learning to laugh at ourselves and each other. Humor is powerful; it allows us to get to know each other much more intimately, and to push our boundaries and become comfortable together and with the truths we aren't always happy with. Through humor, we can find equal footing without losing ourselves. Our sexuality is part of our identity. We must remain true to it. We are stronger together when we do. Humor is that bridge.
Ragnarok Aeon, honestly, in my opinion? A completely normal guy. Liking beautiful women that happen to have male genitals is a confession average straight guys seem to make to me over and over again.
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Ragnarok Aeon, honestly, in my opinion? A completely normal guy. Liking beautiful women that happen to have male genitals is a confession average straight guys seem to make to me over and over again.
Indeed. I was raised to never have a problem remarking on the beauty of a person, whether male or female. I am straight, no doubt. And I have a friend who in the past teased me for commenting on the handsomeness of men. But he grew up over time and now he respects me for being mature about that all the way back then.
Beauty is a fact of life, and you are neither gay nor straight to acknowledge it.
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Fun story about what happened at recent gaming group:
The other day we were having a cook out at my friend’s house and one of my DM’s was there. At one point my friend’s small daughter ended up running out into the street and I yelled at her to come back and stay out of the street and my friend looked at me in startlement and said:
“Holy #$%^, I’ve never heard a shout so commanding, this gives me an idea…”
At the next game group my group encounters an old red dragon for the first time, a villain who has been one of the main causes behind much of the adventures we have been doing and I get up and my DM hands me the lines I’m supposed to read in my dragon-like outdoors voice.
I proceed to bellow my lines at the players, mimicking the arrogance and mocking hostility of an ancient dragon that has a group of small beings on the ropes.
Everyone looks stunned for a moment until the player of the parties normally sarcastic rogue turns to the others and says: “What are we going to do?” in a small voice. At which point I took a threatening step towards him and gave him my most powerful dragon roar.
The other players cringed back in their seats while he fell head over heels backwards out of his chair.
He got to his feet and said: “I think I just #$% my pants. THIS IS AWESOME!”
This got me thinking and actually you know what is funny? The sexuality of my characters isn't something that has ever really come up in my games yet. My groups, while doing a decent amount of role playing, tend to focus more on what the character's goals are and what they are doing in relation to the world, it might be interesting to play a game where a character's personal circumstances play a larger role, although I would never introduce that into a game that isn't like that already.
Once in a while it comes up in mine. Now and then I toss in gay NPCs when running games too. I don't necessarily expect the inner turmoils of my PCs to come up in games, since it really does depend on the type of game, but they do inform how I play them.
Once in a while it comes up in mine. Now and then I toss in gay NPCs when running games too. I don't necessarily expect the inner turmoils of my PCs to come up in games, since it really does depend on the type of game, but they do inform how I play them.
Most of my character's motivations seem to be something along the lines of putting their greatswords through the Big Bad's face, diving into his piles of gold like Scrooge Mcduck and rubbing his looted magic items against his nipples in pleasure. Is that motivated by his homosexuality? I leave it to observers to decide the answer for themselves.
Most of my character's motivations seem to be something along the lines of putting their greatswords through the Big Bad's face, diving into his piles of gold like Scrooge Mcduck and rubbing his looted magic items against his nipples in pleasure. Is that motivated by his homosexuality? I leave it to observers to decide the answer for themselves.
Once in a while it comes up in mine. Now and then I toss in gay NPCs when running games too. I don't necessarily expect the inner turmoils of my PCs to come up in games, since it really does depend on the type of game, but they do inform how I play them.
For me it depends. Sexuality isn't the only thing bouncing around, but it's one of the things.
For me it depends. Sexuality isn't the only thing bouncing around, but it's one of the things.Most of my character's motivations seem to be something along the lines of putting their greatswords through the Big Bad's face, diving into his piles of gold like Scrooge Mcduck and rubbing his looted magic items against his nipples in pleasure. Is that motivated by his homosexuality? I leave it to observers to decide the answer for themselves.
Once in a while it comes up in mine. Now and then I toss in gay NPCs when running games too. I don't necessarily expect the inner turmoils of my PCs to come up in games, since it really does depend on the type of game, but they do inform how I play them.
I know, I'm just being silly. In all seriousness a game with an internal character focus would be of great interest to me, although I don't really know if Pathfinder would be the best system to support that. Free form roleplaying or WoD maybe?
About the above, while you can roleplay any type of character in Pathfinder the focus of the game seems to mostly be based around the idea of defeating dark threats and gaining power and wealth, something that tends to focus your attention on the situation you're in and how to make it better not how you feel about said situation. Add that to the fact that in Pathfinder you can often actually learn what the heck is truly happening around you and it tends to produce a can do attitude that makes self reflection not your first instinct in most circumstances.
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While I identify as straight, the truth is that I am attracted to people with a pretty face, silky hair, and soft skin regardless of sex. This is difficult to talk about, not because I'm afraid of people ostracizing me, but because I don't want people to misunderstand. I still prefer the feminine figure, I like cute and pretty people. I don't want macho gay guys going after me. I don't really want to and shop with the gay crowd and act like them, because that's not who I am. I'm not the hollywood bisexual stereotype who will bang anything. I still judge people by how pretty they are. I have always found muscles unattractive, so masculine figures definitely bother me. For me, I just don't talk about my interests out of convenience. Too much explaining, and it's not like my life is or ever will be in shambles because I don't talk about it. Sometimes I consider telling people about it, but it just seems like it would take too much work for me to not be misunderstood. Sometimes I hope that I'll meet a girl and be surprised. I really don't know how else to go about it because asking someone if they have a penis would just seem rude.
I find the terms straight or gay or even bisexual too limiting to properly describe my orientation. I have a gay friend who says I'm not gay, so what am I!?
(y*n*)y
Really, how you identify is up to you.
For the record, as a general note, I will say a lot of folks where I live are self-identifying with "queer" as sort of a catch-all (I actually prefer queer to bisexual myself, as people seem to think I'm into threesomes when I say I'm bisexual, although that's also a misconception that should be stopped).
But it's all you, and if you decide on one way to identify, anyone who tells you you're "wrong" is full of it.
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Most of my character's motivations seem to be something along the lines of putting their greatswords through the Big Bad's face, diving into his piles of gold like Scrooge Mcduck and rubbing his looted magic items against his nipples in pleasure. Is that motivated by his homosexuality? I leave it to observers to decide the answer for themselves.
Once in a while it comes up in mine. Now and then I toss in gay NPCs when running games too. I don't necessarily expect the inner turmoils of my PCs to come up in games, since it really does depend on the type of game, but they do inform how I play them.
that. Is. AWESOME.
Ragnarok Aeon, honestly, in my opinion? A completely normal guy. Liking beautiful women that happen to have male genitals is a confession average straight guys seem to make to me over and over again.
This is a recognized fetish with a thriving community, however.
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I am female and bi, I have known plenty of people that are straight, bi, G/L of both genders. Now this may be about more where I live, but my personal experience has been that. Most people don't care if girls are lesbians or bi. Hell with guys it tends to get them more interested in you not less. While other girls tend to either not care or be curious. The only people I have had trouble with is religious type that consider it a sin and want to "save me" which includes most of my family.
But with guys I have noticed a lot different reactions, people are less receptive of them. I have a gay friend that is afraid to come out to everyone. Mostly cause the last gay guy that totally came out to everyone ended up moving cause he got hassled to much. While the bi guys I have known for the most part, if they are out about it get treated like they are gay.
Was just curious if most other people have had similar or different experiences in that regard.
Now as for gaming, that is pretty different. I have found gamers are far more open than the average person. The vast majority just don't care and don't mind when it gets played up in the game. To the point that more than a few have done crossgender, or played LGB characters when they the player are not. No one hassles the straight guy when he plays a gay character etc.
I know, I'm just being silly. In all seriousness a game with an internal character focus would be of great interest to me, although I don't really know if Pathfinder would be the best system to support that. Free form roleplaying or WoD maybe?
I think it's a combination of the game and what the players and GM bring to the game.
The three groups I currently game with fall into these categories:
Group 1: I've known and game with these guys for over 20 years. There is often a lot of ribbing about what is "manly" or not (for instance, I'm straight but I love cute, fuzzy animals and I'm always posting pics of them on FB. I catch hell for it from a couple of the guys). I'm not sure any of them are downright homophobic (well, I think one of them may be. He was hit on by a gamer friend many years ago and it really screwed up that friendship. To this day they don't talk).
Group 2: A pretty liberal group which is very open to multiple lifestyles and orientations. Their circles of friends (the ones that I'm not part of) include Wiccans, Pagans, LBGT folks, and even some polyamorous folks.
Group 3: Mostly teenagers and early 20s: The pejorative adjective of the times is, "That's so gay", or variants thereof. One of them is a youth pastor and he falls victim to that sometimes. I know some of them are friends with some gay and lesbian kids, but the phrase is so common now I don't know how they feel about it. There aren't any homophobes in this group (that I know of), but the constant calling someone's character "gay" just because they act or do something off the wall gets old.
I guess I said all that to say that the folks I know fall out of all different sorts of trees, but for the most part seem to be ok with the whole LGBT thing. At least I hope so.
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Ragnarok Aeon, honestly, in my opinion? A completely normal guy. Liking beautiful women that happen to have male genitals is a confession average straight guys seem to make to me over and over again.
There's a guy I've known most of my life that, while he claims to be straight, is fascinated by, in his words, "shemales". He'll also say things along the lines of "Man, I'd do that guy if he were dressed like a girl" and things like that. He's always going on about cybering or having phonesex with guys, as well. I always give him this look: O_o, but he swears he's a "thundering heterosexual".
And for the record, I think this thread is a good idea. I just hope it doesn't get derailed or turn into someone's personal outlet to start a fight on one side or the other. That sort of thing happens too easily, it seems.
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Personally I think ones sexuality is a private matter. If Someone wants to scream it from the highest mountain or keep it to themselves, it is up to them.
Some of my friends know my "sexual" preference, but most do not, it's not something I share to the world as I prefer to be private
With that said I applaud those who do want to stand up and shout it out, that is your choice. But be warned, even in today's day and age, doing this can still be harmful.
I have a GF who is T, she is one of my dearest friends, she is not a gamer, and if you asked her her gender, she would NEVER tell you she was T, she would say without hesitation she was female. But I have known some T men and woman that will tell you that they are T straight up.
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. . . Most people don't care if girls are lesbians or bi. Hell with guys it tends to get them more interested in you not less. While other girls tend to either not care or be curious. The only people I have had trouble with is religious type that consider it a sin and want to "save me" which includes most of my family.
But with guys I have noticed a lot different reactions, people are less receptive of them. I have a gay friend that is afraid to come out to everyone. Mostly cause the last gay guy that totally came out to everyone ended up moving cause he got hassled to much. While the bi guys I have known for the most part, if they are out about it get treated like they are gay.
This has been my experience, pretty much everywhere. It's perfectly acceptable for a woman to be gay or bi, but for a man to be is somehow wrong. A large portion of this, I suspect, and keep in mind I have no professional training on this subject, is because women are seen from an early age as being soft, caregiver types, and responding with compassion to both genders equally. Most mom's hug sons and daughters equally, meanwhile dad is more physically affectionate to a daughter than to a son (outsider's / child's perception). So men having seen their mother kiss a sister or aunt are conditioned that seeing a woman kiss another woman is nothing out of the ordinary in most cases (or they are turned on by it, not sure why on that one though), but having rarely if ever seen their father kiss a boy's booboo's (that's Mom's job after all), a man kissing another man is perceived as unnatural.
This is why I am so in the closet about being a bi-sexual man with everyone but my gaming group and a few liberal-minded close friends.
Because, as Dark Mistress said, gamers tend to be more open-minded than most about differences.
That said, straight or gay, I consider it a compliment when anyone hits on me for the first time, provided they are willing to take 'no, I'm not interested' as an answer. This was true even before I realized I was bi.
While I identify as straight, the truth is that I am attracted to people with a pretty face, silky hair, and soft skin regardless of sex. This is difficult to talk about, not because I'm afraid of people ostracizing me, but because I don't want people to misunderstand. I still prefer the feminine figure, I like cute and pretty people. I don't want macho gay guys going after me. I don't really want to and shop with the gay crowd and act like them, because that's not who I am. I'm not the hollywood bisexual stereotype who will bang anything. I still judge people by how pretty they are. I have always found muscles unattractive, so masculine figures definitely bother me. For me, I just don't talk about my interests out of convenience. Too much explaining, and it's not like my life is or ever will be in shambles because I don't talk about it. Sometimes I consider telling people about it, but it just seems like it would take too much work for me to not be misunderstood. Sometimes I hope that I'll meet a girl and be surprised. I really don't know how else to go about it because asking someone if they have a penis would just seem rude.
I find the terms straight or gay or even bisexual too limiting to properly describe my orientation. I have a gay friend who says I'm not gay, so what am I!?
(y*n*)y
Really, how you identify is up to you.
For the record, as a general note, I will say a lot of folks where I live are self-identifying with "queer" as sort of a catch-all (I actually prefer queer to bisexual myself, as people seem to think I'm into threesomes when I say I'm bisexual, although that's also a misconception that should be stopped).
But it's all you, and if you decide on one way to identify, anyone who tells you you're "wrong" is full of it.
This.
On another note one of the most common and hurtful accusations about my bi-sexuality I hear is that I'm simply suffering from "hyper-sexuality" the idea that since apparently it is impossible to be attracted to both genders my issue must just be that I'm so super horny all the time that I will do it with anything, man, woman or furniture.
Ouch.
that. Is. AWESOME.Most of my character's motivations seem to be something along the lines of putting their greatswords through the Big Bad's face, diving into his piles of gold like Scrooge Mcduck and rubbing his looted magic items against his nipples in pleasure. Is that motivated by his homosexuality? I leave it to observers to decide the answer for themselves.
Once in a while it comes up in mine. Now and then I toss in gay NPCs when running games too. I don't necessarily expect the inner turmoils of my PCs to come up in games, since it really does depend on the type of game, but they do inform how I play them.
Hehe.
Ragnarok Aeon, honestly, in my opinion? A completely normal guy. Liking beautiful women that happen to have male genitals is a confession average straight guys seem to make to me over and over again.This is a recognized fetish with a thriving community, however.
Yep it really is just super common it seems, I myself enjoy it, though I like masculine men too.
I am female and bi, I have known plenty of people that are straight, bi, G/L of both genders. Now this may be about more where I live, but my personal experience has been that. Most people don't care if girls are lesbians or bi. Hell with guys it tends to get them more interested in you not less. While other girls tend to either not care or be curious. The only people I have had trouble with is religious type that consider it a sin and want to "save me" which includes most of my family.
But with guys I have noticed a lot different reactions, people are less receptive of them. I have a gay friend that is afraid to come out to everyone. Mostly cause the last gay guy that totally came out to everyone ended up moving cause he got hassled to much. While the bi guys I have known for the most part, if they are out about it get treated like they are gay.
Was just curious if most other people have had similar or different experiences in that regard.
Now as for gaming, that is pretty different. I have found gamers are far more open than the average person. The vast majority just don't care and don't mind when it gets played up in the game. To the point that more than a few have done crossgender, or played LGB characters when they the player are not. No one hassles the straight guy when he plays a gay character etc.
Yes, this seems pretty typical.
On a related note people often recommend to gay men that they live their lives completely out of the closet with everyone they meet because they will be happier that way but I often say to place a check on that impulse. Severe prejudice and sometimes even violence against gay men is still a thing that happens and you need to be careful.
A gay friend of mine recently told me he really admired me for my upfront approach to my sexuality and said he wished he felt free to do the same and I told him not to feel bad about it because our situations weren't really comparable. While anyone with a gun can shoot me dead my size means I'm a great deal safer from violence and even some of the more vitriolic prejudice. It's hard to bring yourself to indulge your desire to gay bash a man who obviously has the strength to crush your skulls like eggshells with his bare hands if you piss him off.
I think it's a combination of the game and what the players and GM bring to the game.
I know, I'm just being silly. In all seriousness a game with an internal character focus would be of great interest to me, although I don't really know if Pathfinder would be the best system to support that. Free form roleplaying or WoD maybe?
True dat.
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The three groups I currently game with fall into these categories:
Group 1: I've known and game with these guys for over 20 years. There is often a lot of ribbing about what is "manly" or not (for instance, I'm straight but I love cute, fuzzy animals and I'm always posting pics of them on FB. I catch hell for it from a couple of the guys). I'm not sure any of them are downright homophobic (well, I think one of them may be. He was hit on by a gamer friend many years ago and it really screwed up that friendship. To this day they don't talk).
Group 2: A pretty liberal group which is very open to multiple lifestyles and orientations. Their circles of friends (the ones that I'm not part of) include Wiccans, Pagans, LBGT folks, and even some polyamorous folks.
Group 3: Mostly teenagers and early 20s: The pejorative adjective of the times is, "That's so gay", or variants thereof. One of them is a youth pastor and he falls victim to that sometimes. I know some of them are friends with some gay and lesbian kids, but the phrase is so common now I don't know how they feel about it. There aren't any homophobes in this group (that I know of), but the constant calling someone's character "gay" just because they act or do something off the wall gets old.
I guess I said all that to say that the folks I know fall out of all different sorts of trees, but for the most part seem to be ok with the whole LGBT thing. At least I hope so.
"That's so gay." Is a phrase I use myself sometimes, meaning "That's so lame."
Recently I've been switching up my pejorative phrases based on the group I'm in. When a liberal friend of mine recently did something really lame I told him. "That's so Republican!" =p
I have a GF who is T, she is one of my dearest friends, she is not a gamer, and if you asked her her gender, she would NEVER tell you she was T, she would say without hesitation she was female. But I have known some T men and woman that will tell you that they are T straight up.
Transgender people often times face the worse persecution of all and even people trying to be positive and supportive of them often completely misunderstand who they are in an ugly way. I think I may post a bit about my own transgender friend and what I have learned from him a bit later.
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This has been my experience, pretty much everywhere. It's perfectly acceptable for a woman to be gay or bi, but for a man to be is somehow wrong. A large portion of this, I suspect, and keep in mind I have no professional training on this subject, is because women are seen from an early age as being soft, caregiver types, and responding with compassion to both genders equally. Most mom's hug sons and daughters equally, meanwhile dad is more physically affectionate to a daughter than to a son (outsider's / child's perception). So men having seen their mother kiss a sister or aunt are conditioned that seeing a woman kiss another woman is nothing out of the ordinary in most cases (or they are turned on by it, not sure why on that one though), but having rarely if ever seen their father kiss a boy's booboo's (that's Mom's job after all), a man kissing another man is perceived as unnatural.
This may be true. Another thing I know plays a factor in my personal life at least is that straight men often times find gay men intrinsically threatening because when they find out you like men their first thought is "Does he want to poke me in the rear?"
No I don't but actually there is an interesting lesson you can perhaps learn from this if you're willing to think about it. That feeling is something women often feel when they deal with certain types of men, uncomfortable isn't it?. Empathy for the win!
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I'm not quite sure how to respond to this. I know women are generally better at saying the right things, but my experience is that they're not actually any more accepting than guys when it comes right down to it.
I'm not quite sure how to respond to this. I know women are generally better at saying the right things, but my experience is that they're not actually any more accepting than guys when it comes right down to it.
Really? Could you explain your experience in greater detail perhaps? I'm interested in how things have played out for you. In my personal experience most straight girls seem not only pretty nonchalant about it they themselves seem one drunken bender away from waking up next to a woman. I will say however that my social group is made up of both younger people and people that like to have a good time so my view might be seriously skewed.
It's nothing terribly dramatic. Just that after I came out I suddenly found myself without female friends. Suddenly they were way too busy and invitations to get-togethers would go out to everyone but me. Like they felt uncomfortable including me in girl time. We don't really talk anymore. From listening to them talk you'd think they were fine with it, but their actions were very different than their words. I'm in my thirties, have a kid, and live in the midwest. These were all women my age or older also with kids. I think they kinda panicked, suddenly having no idea how to relate, never mind that we'd been friends for years at that point and had plenty in common.
Thanks Dogbladewarrior, though I've been attracted to even guys who dressed wear normal guy clothing and identify as a male (they just happen to be really pretty guys), so even if I'm a normal guy, I feel that "straight" has too many implied limitations that don't apply to me.
As far as the male / female homosexual disparity. It's easy to find people that will root on two women together who will freak out about two men together. I have not yet met anyone who thinks two guys together is hot but is disgusted by two girls together.
It partially has to do with stereotypes.
Being a guy, who hangs out with guys, being brought up as a guy, and thus generally knowing how guys think; most guys stereotype girls as sexy and guys as a threat. Two feminine figures coming together is double the sexiness and beauty for them, while (for homophobic males) two masculine figures is double the threat of one masculine figure. Also guys have a tendency to imagine a polyamorous situation(even if they believe they only need one) and imagine where they get in on the action of two ladies, and they may imagine a situation where the guys will try to drag them in.
Straight women on the other hand (from my experiences and conversations) are less likely than men to take a threesome into consideration (again from my experiences). A woman is more often going to be less threatened by a lesbian, because one, they are under the impression that lesbians will find another lesbian to court, and two, because they are not going to steal away the man they are lusting after. And while don't know any women that are actually homophobic, I have known two that were jaded because their ex turned out to be gay. For some reason, if a guy finds another guy attractive it means, "he was gay all along, why did he lie to me?".
Of course these are just my observations from my environment, so I might be wrong.
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My tale is rather long, I discovered I was gay at the age of 14. I had hints before. However I was a member of a church that was not very accepting of that sexual orientation (I will leave the name out as I don't wish to cause controversy). This lead to intense prayer on my part, as well as severe depression. I was one of the well known young people in the community spending most of the time on my grandfathers farm, being a member of the football team. I tried to date women over that time but couldn't even bring myself to even kiss them. Luckily I could pass that off from being exceptionally religious. Needless to say things came to a head at the start of my senior year, after a failed but nearly successful suicide attempt (with maybe 10 minutes to spare) I decided that it just wasn't worth it anymore, putting up this facade to try and maintain false friendships and relationships. I came out to everyone, I was excommunicated from my church no one was to have contact with me, I was kicked out of the house my family having to follow the edicts of the church. I quit the football team after the guys made it abundantly clear with a broken arm and a bloody nose and two black eyes that they didn't feel comfortable on the team. I ended up being beaten up many times in that short period, and I graduated high school with honors and went to the University of New York. I currently hold a masters degree, and I married the love of my life in 2010. I game as regularly as I can with my mostly straight male friends (what can I say my personality didn't change much when I came out, except gain confidence). I was bitter against religion for a lot of years but I learned to accept it even though I am myself an atheist, I realize not everyone is like my family and the church I haled from.
Ragnarok, I don't think you're wrong. Different people have different experiences. One of the women who stopped being friends with me is really into fiction about guy on guy but got really squirmed about girl on girl. I don't think she's typical, but there is one person like that out there.:)
It's nothing terribly dramatic. Just that after I came out I suddenly found myself without female friends. Suddenly they were way too busy and invitations to get-togethers would go out to everyone but me. Like they felt uncomfortable including me in girl time. We don't really talk anymore. From listening to them talk you'd think they were fine with it, but their actions were very different than their words. I'm in my thirties, have a kid, and live in the midwest. These were all women my age or older also with kids. I think they kinda panicked, suddenly having no idea how to relate, never mind that we'd been friends for years at that point and had plenty in common.
That is unfortunate, I'm sorry.
Ragnarok, I don't think you're wrong. Different people have different experiences. One of the women who stopped being friends with me is really into fiction about guy on guy but got really squirmed about girl on girl. I don't think she's typical, but there is one person like that out there.:)
I mean realized there had to be at least a couple. I've just haven't met such a person yet, however the anti-gay-male-yet-lesbian-supporters are pretty abundant. One of the guys I game with is in his early 30s, is in the army, and has three kids, he is all about woman on woman action but expresses discomfort whenever a guy treads on the line homoeroticism.
It actually sounds like your exfriends have a similar thinking pattern to most of the guys I know. Maybe it has to less gender than I thought. It might have something more to do with different age groups. Who knows.
Thanks Dogbladewarrior, though I've been attracted to even guys who dressed wear normal guy clothing and identify as a male (they just happen to be really pretty guys), so even if I'm a normal guy, I feel that "straight" has too many implied limitations that don't apply to me.
As far as the male / female homosexual disparity. It's easy to find people that will root on two women together who will freak out about two men together. I have not yet met anyone who thinks two guys together is hot but is disgusted by two girls together.
It partially has to do with stereotypes.
Being a guy, who hangs out with guys, being brought up as a guy, and thus generally knowing how guys think; most guys stereotype girls as sexy and guys as a threat. Two feminine figures coming together is double the sexiness and beauty for them, while (for homophobic males) two masculine figures is double the threat of one masculine figure. Also guys have a tendency to imagine a polyamorous situation(even if they believe they only need one) and imagine where they get in on the action of two ladies, and they may imagine a situation where the guys will try to drag them in.
Straight women on the other hand (from my experiences and conversations) are less likely than men to take a threesome into consideration (again from my experiences). A woman is more often going to be less threatened by a lesbian, because one, they are under the impression that lesbians will find another lesbian to court, and two, because they are not going to steal away the man they are lusting after. And while don't know any women that are actually homophobic, I have known two that were jaded because their ex turned out to be gay. For some reason, if a guy finds another guy attractive it means, "he was gay all along, why did he lie to me?".
Of course these are just my observations from my environment, so I might be wrong.
No problem. Self definitions are truly not important in the end but you should know their is nothing weird or uncommon about you. If you would like to learn just how into men you are or whether it is simply about attraction to people with feminine traits consider the following question: When I fantasize about these beauties what role does their penis play in it all?(don't answer it here or we will break the PG-13 rule, just think about it) It might give you some insight into how you feel and if your interest is bi-curious or simply straight.
As to the female/male homosexual responses people have yes that seems pretty close to what I see happening.
My tale is rather long, I discovered I was gay at the age of 14. I had hints before. However I was a member of a church that was not very accepting of that sexual orientation (I will leave the name out as I don't wish to cause controversy). This lead to intense prayer on my part, as well as severe depression. I was one of the well known young people in the community spending most of the time on my grandfathers farm, being a member of the football team. I tried to date women over that time but couldn't even bring myself to even kiss them. Luckily I could pass that off from being exceptionally religious. Needless to say things came to a head at the start of my senior year, after a failed but nearly successful suicide attempt (with maybe 10 minutes to spare) I decided that it just wasn't worth it anymore, putting up this facade to try and maintain false friendships and relationships. I came out to everyone, I was excommunicated from my church no one was to have contact with me, I was kicked out of the house my family having to follow the edicts of the church. I quit the football team after the guys made it abundantly clear with a broken arm and a bloody nose and two black eyes that they didn't feel comfortable on the team. I ended up being beaten up many times in that short period, and I graduated high school with honors and went to the University of New York. I currently hold a masters degree, and I married the love of my life in 2010. I game as regularly as I can with my mostly straight male friends (what can I say my personality didn't change much when I came out, except gain confidence). I was bitter against religion for a lot of years but I learned to accept it even though I am myself an atheist, I realize not everyone is like my family and the church I haled from.
Ouch, damn, that sucks. I'm glad it has worked out for you now though. It's good your happy now and that bitterness about being betrayed by everyone that was suppose to take care of you didn't ruin you.
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One of my best friends is transgender and while I will say his situation is incredibly complicated he is one of the bravest and most interesting people I have ever met
I believe he was meant to be born as a giant wall of a man like me but fate pulled a cruel trick and stuck him in the body of an incredibly petite woman.
That hasn’t slowed him down in the least.
On one of the first nights we were hanging out after he had explained his situation to me he challenged me to a drinking contest.
We drank an ungodly amount of Southern Comfort, with me continuously mocking him about how falling down drunk he was getting while I was barely fazed.
Finally he stood and told me. “You really just need every square inch of your ass kicked.”
I was about to reply when he swung on me. He almost connected but I managed to catch his wrist and throw him to the floor, where he tried to gain his feet several times but was simply too drunk. His girlfriend apologized profusely to me but I told her it wasn’t a problem, everyone does silly things when that drunk.
When I saw him a few days later I was expecting either that he would apologize, or that he didn’t really remember it and the parts he did would just get swept under the rug.
I was fine with either but that’s not what I got. Instead, now fully sober he told me. “Oh, good to see you, now about that ass beating I owe you!” and proceeded to attack me. I’m not kidding.
After manhandling him for about five minutes I pinned him and told him. “You know, you may not have a penis but you have the biggest balls of anyone I’ve ever met.”
While this behavior may seem needlessly confrontational it has actually done some pretty amazing good. About a year before I met him he apparently interrupted some wannabe gay bashers threatening a man and managed to chase them off (presumably by acting crazy as %^&&, I never got the whole story), and became a bit of a hero to much of the local LGBT community.
That is what he is like, a strong sense of justice, ferociously loyal and never willing to back down from anything.
His penchant for resolving issues with violence did lead to one ugly incident once though.
I received a call from his girlfriend one night and she was sobbing incoherently and told me she needed me to come over. She couldn’t articulate what the problem was but just kept saying she wanted me to come over so my girlfriend and I rushed over.
I found them sitting on the floor of their apartment crying and holding each other. My friend had a number of cuts in the side of his face and his girl had a busted lip and welts on her body.
At first I thought they had been attacked but talking to them the story of what happened slowly began to emerge.
My friend’s girlfriend is a beautiful girl and quite a kind person but while she takes care of herself she tends to create a lot of messes around the house that she then leaves for my friend to clean up. Seeing as she is also unemployed (by her own choice) they had been fighting about it because my friend didn’t think that it was unreasonable to at least ask her to pick up after herself.
Apparently at one point he said some hurtful things to her then began walking away and she picked up a glass globe and threw it at him. It shattered on the wall near his head and bits of glass bit into his face. In a rage he turned around and set on her with his fists.
We wanted to take them to the hospital but my friend didn’t want to go himself so my girlfriend took his and left and he and I went to the bathroom so I could get the glass out of his face and clean him up. We talked about what happened for awhile while I worked but as I was almost done he made the following statement in a matter-of-fact tone:
“I do regret hitting her but you have to admit, she kinda deserved it.”
I seized him by the chin and lifted him clear off his feet, slamming him against the bathroom wall and holding him level with my face so I could look him in the eye.
“What happened here tonight was NOT GOOD!” I snarled at him. “You need to take control of your temper and make sure this NEVER happens again. You have reasonable requests to make of her and arguments are fine but you need to not respond to her bull sh!t with your fists. You’re a man, now act like it!”
“You’re trying to teach me a lesson about controlling my temper while you’re dangling me by the neck?” He muttered back at me from between my fingers defiantly.
“Oh…” I replied, taking a deep breath and gently setting him down. “That is rather hypocritical isn’t it? I apologize; I guess I should watch my temper as well, it’s just that talk of people ‘Deserving’ violence really sticks in my craw.”
“Don’t worry, this will never happen again, I was caught off guard and reacted badly but it’s not the way I want to treat her, no one deserves to be beaten, especially not her.” He informed me. “And you’re right to respond as you did, I was trying to justify it by blaming her because I feel guilty but that is not ok.”
“I just honestly wonder what is going on with you sometimes, why respond the way you do?” I inquired.
He sat on the toilet lid and rubbed his neck.
“You think you and I have something in common because we are part of a ‘community’ and have both faced harsh levels of bigotry but you have no idea what it is like being me or what I have suffered.”
“Then educate me.” I replied.
“I realized as a little kid that I was a boy and have always been honest about it and in response have received nothing but Sh!t about it my whole life. Even when I encounter the rare person that is willing to take me at my word that I am truthfully a man on the inside they can never truly empathize with me. I remember in middle school my principal gave a talk to the school about tolerance because there was a couple of transgender kids including me who where being pretty severely bullied and he wanted to put an end to it. The end point of his speech was “Be nice to these kids, they are just confused about who they are after all.” My response to that was no, no NO! Transgender people know EXACTLY who we are, the problem is YOU’RE confused about who we are.
I have suffered severe abuse my entire life and have always had to be aware of getting jumped and have had to slug it out with groups of people who were many times my size. The worst was in highschool when a group of senior boys decided to grab me walking home and teach me about “How to be a woman.” I dropped out after that and never returned.”
“…I see. I can see why you would have a bad reaction to a surprise attack then…” I acknowledged.
“The kindest people in this world live by some version of the Golden Rule and try to treat people the way they want to be treated, but it often fails in relation to transgender people because people have such a hard time empathizing with a state of being they have a hard time imagining.” He informed me.
“So what is the answer? How should we approach people in your situation?” I asked.
“If you care about me you need to listen to what I have to say and let me tell you how I feel. Abandon ‘do unto to others as you would have done unto you.’ For ‘treat others as THEY want you, and need you, to.’
“Ok.” I agreed. “I will try.”
It turned out his girlfriend’s injuries where only superficial and she didn’t want the police involved so nothing legal ever came of it. She is not a girl to take something like that lying down though and while she did not leave my friend their relationship certainly suffered from the repercussions of that incident for a long time and perhaps rightly so.
They are still together today and while they certainly have some fiery fights he has never done that again, which makes me happy.
It’s funny, a lot of straight people seem mystified as to what occurs in all these “alternative” relationships they see but in the end we as human beings seem to be all in the same boat, from the heights of ecstatic love to the ugly depths of domestic abuse we are all just people in the end.
My favorite message these days:
“Be kind to one another.” –Ellen Degeneres’ sign off.
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"That's so gay." Is a phrase I use myself sometimes, meaning "That's so lame."
Recently I've been switching up my pejorative phrases based on the group I'm in. When a liberal friend of mine recently did something really lame I told him. "That's so Republican!" =p
Heh, I think that's what I was trying to say, but apparently my ability to use English bls.f=we lwe down. :)
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Wow, Dogblade. Thank you for starting this thread, and thank you everyone else for posting in it.
One of things I always find interesting is the public perception that while bi women are everywhere, bi guys are must actually be gay dudes who are only halfway out of the closet--a stereotype held even by the LGBT community.
Funny story: I was at a gay bar recently as part of a (gay) friend's bachelor party. It was pretty packed, and the swirling crowd made it so I ended up talking to a bunch of folks I didn't know (many of whom were DEEP into their cups). They immediately signaled me out as "the straight friend" in the bachelor party, and wanted to make sure I felt welcome. When I informed them that, actually, I'm *not* straight, they were all, "Oh, it's okay, no need to be embarrassed--we have plenty of straight friends!" When I insisted that, no, really, I'm bi, they all scoffed and insisted that such things didn't actually exist. We got to talking, and as I explained, they all got these amazed looks and said "Holy s%+%! There really ARE bi guys!" They then proceeded to parade me drunkenly around the bar like some sort of magical animal, introducing me to other astonished gay guys as "proof."
Just goes to prove what they say about assumptions--they make an ass out of you and mptions.
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As for how that last post relates to gaming... there are actually a ton of queer folk at Paizo. We've always been very forward about saying as much, but many of us have remained quiet about who *specifically* is LGBTwhatever. Part of that is just a personal privacy issue, but I know that I've sometimes second-guessed myself about such public declarations for fear of unexpected future awkwardness.
But you know what? Especially in the current political environment, the greatest thing any of us can do to advance equality is to simply live openly, and in doing so remind folks that non-straight people are all around them, all the time.
F@~# discretion. Thank you all for flying the flag.
Director of Sales
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But you know what? Especially in the current political environment, the greatest thing any of us can do to advance equality is to simply live openly, and in doing so remind folks that non-straight people are all around them, all the time.F@%# discretion. Thank you all for flying the flag.
So say we all. :)
Contributor
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But you know what? Especially in the current political environment, the greatest thing any of us can do to advance equality is to simply live openly, and in doing so remind folks that non-straight people are all around them, all the time.
F!+& discretion. Thank you all for flying the flag.
Fair point, Sutter. And I'm certainly not ashamed. I'm a lesbian. Not quite a gold-star, but I still lean very heavily towards women. It's certainly made gaming interesting over the years, especially before moving to the liberal bastion that is Seattle.
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I am M2F. I have been out over 7 years and been full time just a little over 6 years. I am not the beautiful petitie woman I wish I where, but I am passable even with never having had FFS (Facial Feminization Surgery). I have yet to have bottom surgery though I REALLY want it. it is just so expensive and coming up withthe funds have been impossible. Sure wish this country was as civilized as some. hell even Iran and Cuba pay for the surgery understanding this IS a medical condition and not a mental one.
I am divorced and did a great job of hiding my feelings all of my life. I was what some would call a man's man, as I did everything in my power to hide how I felt, and to try and make how I felt go away. As long as I kept my mind full active like gaming, playing in my all original metal band, painting, playing PC games I was good. The minute I went lax like watching TV, grocery shopping, going to a movie, work, I struggled. I finally 7 years ago had enough. While my marriage was pretty good, stress of family, job, my health, finances all ate at me. My BP went to death levels of 150/110 and I had to face it. So I first told my mom, then my spouce, and then my twin boys one of which was my BFF at the time.
What I told my mom was I had struggled all of my life and I told her things, that when I mentioned them light bulbs went off in her head. When i was 13 her and I where going to the town up the road to birthday shop for me. She had asked what I wanted and I was dead silent, then answered I don't know. Truth is I wanted to tell her then and there, but I knew if I did, my family would disown me and it would have been hell. She had also found the clothing I had gotten like my M2F's do and I told her lies that she bought fully. I was good at lieing and it was killing me. She told me that day she had always thought me a latant homosexual.
When I came out to my family and then decided to transition, I lost everyone in my family and relatives all but a few disowned me. In time I have gotten my sister to come around, my mom is SO SO and still uses wrong pronouns especially when I am not around. My boys will not talk to me, my ex and ex inlaws think I am totally mental and should be executed as some are neo-nazi's. The fact that when I was 13 and wanted to say something and did not proved correct that my family would disown me. As I put it to my mom at 13 I could never have handled it, and at 40 it was almost impossible, I just had the skills and tools at 40 to deal with it better of losing family.
But on the plus I have a very amazing man in my life that loves me more than life and I him. he is my rock and I his. While he family has not a clue, It's not something we want to tell them if ever as they would disown him, so for now we make do. He is a gamer like me (I converted him) And he loves everything I love especially the Renaissance faires which we dress as nobles and get a million photos taken of us.
As I said I am passable, but I am not small... Not fat. I like to tell people I was into weight lifting and body building which was partially true and it explains my size. No one bothers me, and I only tell those I must. In fact I've never told my game group, it's not their business and if they know... they do not care which is as it should be. They treat me like a female in the group, which is with repect and dignity, which I also give them.
As a funny story to all of this just before I went FT at the job I was at, I went out one night with my team lead and another in our dept. We went to see Skid Row at a club. They kept joking how they could not see me as a female because of my height or buid. I stopped them both and pointed to about a dozen different woman, Look that one is taller than me (i'm 6 feet tall), Look that one has broader shoulders than I do, look that one over there has a bigger nose than you, that one has a bigger jaw. They both turned to me and said "Thanks, now we will look at women in a totally different way" They where not happy that I pointed out that while I was still male, I could easily pass as a female. To this day I and my BF see woman and we comment about that all the time how when we see a woman how tall she is compared to me or how broad her shoulders are.
The fact is woman come in all shapes and sizes. But part of what I see that get SO many M2F clocked... read... spoted, is how they dress. Minis skits and 4" heels are not what women wear, that is the style of dress of a 16 year old girl or a hooker, and to fit in, one needs to dress normal. While you can dress nice, 4" heels are not something you see on most women, 2 or 3" maybe, but not every day.
So there you have it
OH and BTW, i am Bi, as a Male I was totally Hetero and could have never seen myself with a male. My ex asked me just before I transitioned if I wanted to be with a male, and I said yes, because I wanted to experience that part as a woman. But I found out to me gender did not matter, it was what was in the inside and the intellect I wanted and I found that in my BF, While he is average looking, just as I am, and shorter than I am, he is everything to me. But IF I was not with him, I'd be happy with a female.
To any that want to see me... there is a pic buried in the sock monkey posting on the forum somewhere. You may have to dig for it
If any in my group read this, don't be afraid, I do not bite... well not to hard :)
BTW Paizo need to add to your diversity?
HIRE ME <------------------------------
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I'm a pretty vanilla gay guy. Boring.
The most difficult part is usually deciding who to tell and when. At this point in my life, I don't "come out" - I just talk about my personal life. People talk about their relationships all the time. If someone at work asks me whether I relocated by myself, I tell them no, I moved with my partner, etc, etc. There are times when my personal life is nobody's business, but if somebody is getting chatty or inquisitive, they are going to get an answer. Life is too short for secrets.
I had a gaming group a while back that might have had an issue with it, but I think it may have just been one of many qualities that made me not "fit in" with them.
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they all got these amazed looks and said "Holy s~%&! There really ARE bi guys!"
I suspect there are far more men who would be bi if our culture didn't have such a polarizing effect. I'm sure many guys who would have been bi in a more neutral environment but repressed one part or another of themselves long ago in order to fit into society.
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they all got these amazed looks and said "Holy s~%&! There really ARE bi guys!"I suspect there are far more men who would be bi if our culture didn't have such a polarizing effect. I'm sure many guys who would have been bi in a more neutral environment but repressed one part or another of themselves long ago in order to fit into society.
I think this is a big part of it. I think a lot of bi guys feel pressure to identify as "straight," even if they have other interests.
I think this is a big part of it. I think a lot of bi guys feel pressure to identify as "straight," even if they have other interests.they all got these amazed looks and said "Holy s~%&! There really ARE bi guys!"I suspect there are far more men who would be bi if our culture didn't have such a polarizing effect. I'm sure many guys who would have been bi in a more neutral environment but repressed one part or another of themselves long ago in order to fit into society.
I'm not a bisexual, though my best friend is. So for whatever it's worth: It seems like there's some kind of one drop rule to conceptions of sexuality. If you like the other sex, you must be straight. If you like the opposite, you must be gay. If you like both, you need to make up your mind. Even though the real world doesn't work like that.
I used to say that most people are probably to some degree bisexual, but it was pointed out to me that that's another way to trivialize and achieve invisibility: if everyone is bi, no one is bi as the distinction loses meaning.
Is anyone doing it in here yet? No. Bohr-ihng!
As for bisexuals, Samnell, you're the only one I trust in here: how does Kinsey's work hold up academically? My old comrades and Gore Vidal used to always write about him approvingly, and Laura Linney was so hawt in that flick!
Anyway, seriously, how's his 1-8 scale hold up?