How to Get Your Money Back from Sinister Adventures


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Thanks for stepping up, Lou, you're a class act. Email sent.


Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

Nic,

As one of those who pre-ordered all things SA, I appreciate your thoughts, and that you had the courage to express them. I wish the best as you move forward, and hope we all get to see you and your writing in the future.


Nic,

I haven't had the opportunity to run any of the adventures you've written, though they make great reading. I also didn't lose money on any pre-orders, because I wasn't part of the Paizo community at the time.

But that's not what's important. As someone who has struggled with personal demons, not always successfully, I can completely understand how a person can get off the rail and find themselves in a place they never intended to be, and having hurt a lot of people they never intended to hurt along the way. It took a lot of courage to stand up and make amends the way you're doing here, and for that alone you deserve my respect. If there's one thing my mess-ups (and there's been more than one mess-up, let's just say that) have taught me, it's that every day brings a new chance to do something worthwhile. It's fantastic to see you seizing that chance.

I wish you all the best, both personally and professionally, from here on out. Rely on the people who love you and stay honest with yourself, and things get easier -- a lesson I had to learn the hard way.

I will also say that I look forward to purchasing whatever products you produce in the future, because you've demonstrated your tremendous talent at this profession. Your return can only strengthen the hobby and the community around it.

Gregg


Nic-

I admit I've felt like a dodged a disaster by passing on Razor Coast and waiting for Cold Black. Games aside, I'm glad you're in a better place now and very impressed at your bravery in standing up in a community of people who have had some very ugly things to say about you in the last few years. That takes real guts. Best wishes going forward.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Nick, I notice that you didn't include any mention of Sinister's planned products.

What's the plan for Razor Coast, Cold Black, Ebon Shroud, The Anarchist Game Master's Cookbook, et al?

Should we take the renewed refund plan as the final confirmation that these projects have been officially cancelled, or will something come of them?

Dark Archive

Nic, I have not seen you since I left you on a New York rooftop with our boy Tim, I've been inquiring about you through many mutual friends, I (like many of your fans) am so very happy to see you post here.

That you are a talented and creative man was NEVER ever a question, and now that you (through the auspices of Lou), have come forward, I hope many will also realize that you are also a brave and decent fellow to boot.

So welcome back, please keep my money, I'll be happy to give you more for future projects, much luck and love where the winds take you, but I hope to get to enjoy reading your work very soon sir.

I will count myself a lucky man the next time our paths cross again.

Your fan and friend,

Noel

- And I have said this before and I will say it again, God Bless the fabulously sexy beast that is Mr. Lou Agresta.

Contributor

dafaddu wrote:

I have preordered RC, Ebon Shroud and the Anarchist Gamemaster Cookbook.

And: I don't want my money back, I still want the books!

Have I told you, that I am patient! :)

Hi dafaddu!

Ebon Shroud is a definite cancellation. AGC might happen someday but not through Sinister so please, please, please contact Lou about a refund for those two at the least.

Thanks for the kind sentiments though - you and everyone else - I am ill deserving of such (that goes without saying).

Contributor

Alzrius wrote:

Nick, I notice that you didn't include any mention of Sinister's planned products.

What's the plan for Razor Coast, Cold Black, Ebon Shroud, The Anarchist Game Master's Cookbook, et al?

Should we take the renewed refund plan as the final confirmation that these projects have been officially cancelled, or will something come of them?

Hi Alzrius (and others who preordered),

Lou is shepherding RC from here on out.

Ebon Shroud is cancelled.
AGC won't come out through Sinister (consider it cancelled).
Cold Black is cancelled as well.

Definitely put in for refunds for those three.

Sorry again for all this.

Contributor

baron arem heshvaun wrote:

Nic, I have not seen you since I left you on a New York rooftop with our boy Tim, I've been inquiring about you through many mutual friends, I (like many of your fans) am so very happy to see you post here.

That you are a talented and creative man was NEVER ever a question, and now that you (through the auspices of Lou), have come forward, I hope many will also realize that you are also a brave and decent fellow to boot.

So welcome back, please keep my money, I'll be happy to give you more for future projects, much luck and love where the winds take you, but I hope to get to enjoy reading your work very soon sir.

I will count myself a lucky man the next time our paths cross again.

Your fan and friend,

Noel

- And I have said this before and I will say it again, God Bless the fabulously sexy beast that is Mr. Lou Agresta.

Ah yes! The rooftop madness night!

Noel, you are truly amazing guy. I'm sorry my basic descent into misery severed our burgeoning connection and friendship. I very much enjoyed playing games with you at Gencon - and thanks for your splendid hospitality in NYC. Good gaming to you and yours, sir!

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Lou,

You are truly a class act.

Nic,

Welcome back!

Contributor

Vic Wertz wrote:

Lou,

You are truly a class act.

Nic,

Welcome back!

Thanks, Vic! Look forward to seeing you and the whole amazing Paizo crew again at the con.


Welcome back Nic. :)


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Thank you for the apology. Here's hoping you'll find some spark of joy in RPing again.

As a name that came up continually asking for/pressuring you about the status of RC and yourself, I find it only fair to mention that I never did finish my dissertation (and therefore my doctorate) which I started just about the same time as RC started.

Sometimes, no matter how much we want to get something done...we just don't have it in us.

But your writing is killer!


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I don't have a horse in this race but I'm happy to see anyone who has grappled with depression once again step confidently into the light; especially a fellow writer (and especially one so celebrated in the past). Welcome back, Nic.

Bret Boyd
President
Tricky Owlbear Publishing

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I didn't pre order Razor Coast (I was a poor student at the time), but I did pick up the short PDF releases, in the hopes it would get RC released so I would be able to buy that book.

In any case, looks like you had a bad run Mr Logue, but I'm glad to see things get on track. Also Mr Lou Agresta you're a classy guy. I'm so glad to see a lot of folks get past their rage and welcome you back to the community.

I hope you get back to writing Mr Logue! Edge of Anarchy was easily one of the most fun adventures Ive ever run.

Dark Archive

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I preordered RC way back. I never really got mad about it and still am not. I mean it's only money and there are lots of things in this life that are far more important than money. I was a bit disappointed at the lack of communication though.

I understand depression and all it means, so i completely understand why you dropped off and completely out of sight online. Apology accepted and no hard feelings. Just if you do something like this again. Make sure you get some help on the business side to first. :)

As for the money, as I said it's only money. I don't want it back. If RC see's the light of day someday great. If not consider it a gift or vote of confidence or a pledge of hope to see you one day writing gaming products again, when you feel up to it. Either way I hope life gets better for you and you forgive yourself.

Sincerely
Dark Mistress


Hello Nic

I am with TrickyOwlbear.... (except for the being a writer)... Life can be a hard cold place and I am glad you have found the warmth that is there and the confidence to be yourself again.

Your writing made my skin crawl (in a good way), you are a wonderful wordsmyth and I hope that when you are ready, you will take up the pen and once more populate my nightmares with your creations.

Sovereign Court Contributor

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Wow everyone. Thank you so much for your kind words, everyone. I blush.

*blush*

Seriously, thank you. I'll feel more like I deserve the kind words when I actually get things sorted and put money back in people's accounts.

Me I'm just a hired gun. Nick is the man standing up and making apologies. That's hard stuff.

All that said, I'd like to reiterate that at present I'm making no commitment to putting out RC. It may still never see the light of day. Nick and I are looking into what can be done, but please understand I'm making absolutely no promises.

That said, IF Nick's magnum opus ever comes out, and IF I've any say in the matter, I'll see to it that all pre-orders are honored. That's a precondition of me helping Nick and one he's 100% behind.

IF that day ever comes, RC will be more expensive for new buyers or people who took a refund. The OP has the details for why, etc... But its important to tell everyone that up front.

Thank you all again for being such a great community and being so supportive of my buddy Nick. And for saying such kind things about me. I'm overwhelmed.


Nic and Lou, I never had the chance to order anything from you guys, your honesty and stepping up in all this helps me believe that even when you lose everything it does not mean you are out of the fight.

I have had similar problems in my life and know it is when those you admire stand with you that every thing comes back into place.

I will look forward to seeing Razor Coast and will be happy to pay a higher price for quality work.

Gamers may get mad real fast but most of us forgive just as quick.

I look forward to seeing more of your work.

Scott "Realmwalker" Holmes

Sovereign Court Contributor

Realmwalker wrote:

Nic and Lou, I never had the chance to order anything from you guys, your honesty and stepping up in all this helps me believe that even when you lose everything it does not mean you are out of the fight.

I have had similar problems in my life and know it is when those you admire stand with you that every thing comes back into place.

I will look forward to seeing Razor Coast and will be happy to pay a higher price for quality work.

Gamers may get mad real fast but most of us forgive just as quick.

I look forward to seeing more of your work.

Scott "Realmwalker" Holmes

Thanks, Scott. Let me be clear though: Nick's the only one doing the honesty thing. Ok. That didn't come out right.

What I mean is I don't want kudos for Nick washing over onto me, undeserved. I never had an RPG company, nor was I more than a freelancer for Sinister. I never took the risk of putting anything up for sale. That's all Nick.

I'm just doing some grunt work to help out, so when it comes to praise for spiritual growth, respect for honesty and the courage to apologize -- that all belongs to Nick.

Me? I'm just sort of the FEMA of collapsed 3PP RPG companies.

But I get where you're coming from and its a good place. Thank you for your kind words and support.

- Lou

PS if I ever have some spiritual growth, I'll try and tell you all about it, so you can say nice things about me too. :)

Dark Archive

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Louis Agresta wrote:
PS if I ever have some spiritual growth, I'll try and tell you all about it, so you can say nice things about me too. :)

I can give you "spiritual growth" all it takes is a single kiss. :)

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Hi Lou - in regards to pre-orders for the KUG, how should we handle those? i.e. since you are now working on that, should we include that and have the money go to you? Or is it easier just to refund and then re-buy once the KUG is ready?

Shadow Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Dark_Mistress wrote:
Louis Agresta wrote:
PS if I ever have some spiritual growth, I'll try and tell you all about it, so you can say nice things about me too. :)
I can give you "spiritual growth" all it takes is a single kiss. :)

Giggity!


Never pre-ordered, so I'm not out any money, but RA could potentially earn my money if it is released someday and depending on the usual factors (content, cost, physical or electronic product quality, etc). I'm in support of you guys finishing it up.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber
Louis Agresta wrote:


Me? I'm just sort of the FEMA of collapsed 3PP RPG companies.

Did you mean RPGEMA? From Wikipedia:

"The Role Playing Game Emergency Management Agency (RPGEMA) is an agency of the role playing game (RPG) community, initially created by happenstance and implemented by Louis Agresta on 10 April 2012. The primary purpose of RPGEMA is to coordinate the response to a disaster that has occurred in the RPG industry and that overwhelms the resources of the responsible gaming company. The owner of the gaming company for which the disaster occurs must declare a state of emergency and formally request from Louis Agresta that RPGEMA and the ganeral gaming community respond to the disaster. The only exception is when an emergency and/or disaster occurs due to someone named Richard Pett.

While on-the-ground support of disaster recovery efforts is a major part of RPGEMA's charter, the agency provides gaming companies with experts in specialized fields to help layout and complete projects that are otherwise doomed to never see the printing press. RPGEMA also assists with organizing refund efforts for pre-orders of products by fantatical fans of popular RPG writers of the failed gaming company."

Sovereign Court Contributor

davrion wrote:
Hi Lou - in regards to pre-orders for the KUG, how should we handle those? i.e. since you are now working on that, should we include that and have the money go to you? Or is it easier just to refund and then re-buy once the KUG is ready?

Sinister is a dead beast in the sense its accepting no money.

I'm accepting no money for anything, nor taking any pre-orders. The gods forfend.

If what you mean is how do you get a refund for the KUG? Just send an email to bgmcubed@gmail.com requesting a refund for any and all Sinister pre-orders.

If what you mean is you pre-ordered the KUG and want to know how getting that product will work, that's over in this thread and then it continues over in this thread.

If I have totally failed to understand your question, let me know please. I'll facepalm myself and try answering again. :)

PS @Dark Mistress -- You're on. If ever we meet throw some of that Spiritual Growth my way. :)


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Now I think we need a "Dark Mistress and Lou Agresta" romance kickstarter project....

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

"A game changer will be if Nick provides me with his paypal records and, in the event he is mistaken, any money he took for the KUG. Then I can simply honor the pre-orders." (from: http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz4yqd?Nicholas-Logue#42)

Since I pre-ordered the KUG through Sinister, it sounds like I should go the refund route. I know you mentioned to let you know if we had ordered the original KUG for your KUG PDF and print at cost - does going the refund route negate that (i.e. like by requesting a refund of RC, you would lose getting RC at the old price)?

Dark Archive

Lou & Nick,

What needs to happen for RC to see the light of day by the end of the year?

Sovereign Court Contributor

Oh - I get it now. *facepalm*

Yes, because we sorted things out and Nick passed on his paypal records, if you want the KUG then when I finish it -- you can have it (as described in that thread).

If you'd rather have your money back, you can have that instead. Just email your paypal email address to bgmcubed@gmail.com. It'll take me about a month to get started and then I'll refund people from Nick's account in the order I received the requests.

If you change your mind after receiving a refund and decide you want the KUG after all, you'll need to purchase it at whatever the price is at that time.

Grand Lodge

Yay! Nic Logue is back! Welcome back dude, you've been missed!


Welcome back Nick. We have missed you. I for one will be buying RC WHEN (and not IF) it comes out. Everyone has their hard times. I am glad that you overcame them and not the other way around. Just remember, crap happens. It is how you get through it that matters in the end.

Frog God Games

Nicolas Logue wrote:
I've become a luddite. Hardcore.

Welcome back, my friend. We've missed you. And more importantly let me formally welcome you to the ranks of the Luddites. I've been patiently watching my wind-up clock for the day that this would come. Now I don't feel so lonely.

I would put a smiley face on the post at this point but my old-fashioned keyboard doesn't have all those new-fangled non-letter keys.

Dark Archive

Problem solved. Fantastic.

Somebody hurry up and get Logue writing again. (No, it's not too soon.)

Contributor

Greg A. Vaughan wrote:
Nicolas Logue wrote:
I've become a luddite. Hardcore.

Welcome back, my friend. We've missed you. And more importantly let me formally welcome you to the ranks of the Luddites. I've been patiently watching my wind-up clock for the day that this would come. Now I don't feel so lonely.

I would put a smiley face on the post at this point but my old-fashioned keyboard doesn't have all those new-fangled non-letter keys.

Good to connect again, Greg! Thanks for the support you sent my way during this long rough patch. Sorry I wasn't in the right place to get back to you.

Yep - I experienced something I guess I could refer to as "online death" - there should be research into it. I couldn't even open my email account with experiencing anxiety. Weird and horrible. Its nice to at least be able to be online without my blood pressure spiking.

I vanished from the online world for awhile.

I won't do it again I don't think - now that I have saved up the funds I need to deal with Sinister's pre-order problem, and Lou is helping me take positive action to do so.

Thanks a lot again to everyone who posted kind words here on this thread - sorry to have let so many people, and this great hobby down.

Thanks also to Lou for going above and beyond as a friend and a hobbyist to help repair some of the damage I've done.

@Greg: Look forward to seeing you at Paizocon!

Liberty's Edge

Nic, kudos to you for your clearly heartfelt statement. Really glad to hear that you're making it out of the bad patch you were in. As you can see from the thread, even a few of the people who were most angry with you have let bygones be bygone now that you've come out and explained things. Should you ever write again, I'm among the many who will buy.

TOZ, applause. You were right all along, so I won't let you be the only person in this thread patting yourself on the back :-)

Lou, I totally agree, RPG Man of the Year. This will be a Sisyphean task, but I have confidence in you getting it done.

Justin Sluder wrote:

Lou & Nick,

What needs to happen for RC to see the light of day by the end of the year?

In my humblest of opinions, you guys should probably answer this question if at all possible, though. Even if the answer's, like, "A loving and omnipotent deity must descend from the sky atop a gelded three-headed dragon and spew wishes from betwixt His buttocks". It seems like a bunch of people are actually in it to win it (if at all possible) with you.

Contributor

Jeremiziah wrote:

Nic, kudos to you for your clearly heartfelt statement. Really glad to hear that you're making it out of the bad patch you were in. As you can see from the thread, even a few of the people who were most angry with you have let bygones be bygone now that you've come out and explained things. Should you ever write again, I'm among the many who will buy.

TOZ, applause. You were right all along, so I won't let you be the only person in this thread patting yourself on the back :-)

Lou, I totally agree, RPG Man of the Year. This will be a Sisyphean task, but I have confidence in you getting it done.

Justin Sluder wrote:

Lou & Nick,

What needs to happen for RC to see the light of day by the end of the year?

In my humblest of opinions, you guys should probably answer this question if at all possible, though. Even if the answer's, like, "A loving and omnipotent deity must descend from the sky atop a gelded three-headed dragon and spew wishes from betwixt His buttocks". It seems like a bunch of people are actually in it to win it (if at all possible) with you.

Since Lou stepped in to help, the only thing that needs doing now is for me to recover the print-quality versions of the art for Sinister.

One of the many disasters Sinister endured was a crash of my computer and my inability to salvage a lot of material - all the original print-rez art for Sinister (and about 25,000 words worth of Ebon Shroud material...c'est la vie).

Now I need to contact the original artists and beg them to resend it all. I've got some of it back already, but I have many more people to contact.

Once this is done we can move forward with final layout of RC.

Frog God Games

Nicolas Logue wrote:
@Greg: Look forward to seeing you at Paizocon!

Me too!

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Jeremiziah wrote:


TOZ, applause. You were right all along, so I won't let you be the only person in this thread patting yourself on the back :-)

Thanks, I promise to reign the gloating in now. :)

Contributor

Great to see you (well, sort of) Nick! Very glad to hear the bad patch is behind you and things are returning to normal for you. Cheers!


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Nick,

I've run a number of your games at this point. I never preordered anything, but I would have bought everything Sinister put out. At least I don't think I did. It doesn't matter. I've never been upset or angered, I was, however, worried about you. That's the strange thing about gamers. At some point you begin to get attached to the creators and writers. I've never met Clarke Peterson, Bill Webb, or Greg Vaughan, but I've walked the dusty halls of Rappan Athuk, and looked out towards the city of Tsar. And I don't know James Jacobs, Richard Pett, you, or any of the other Paizo staff, but we've shared the village of Sandpoint, helped bring about fights with hillbilly Ogres and evil Queens against our beloved PC's together, and we all helped make a make believe world seem lived in together. Gamers have a strange attitude towards loyalty and togetherness. We're a fringe group and we have to stick together.

And for better or worse, the internet has changed us all. When I was a kid, Tolkien was a name on a book. Now Stan Sakai is my facebook friend. That's crazy. For the record: Usagi Yojimbo is the greatest story of a hardcore samurai rabbit known to man.

My point is that even though many of the people on this board might not ever meet you, we do have a bond. Each one of us understands each other in some geeky way.

Sorry if this is sappy. It's been one of those days.

It is good to see you back. Best of luck with everything and I hope to read your next adventure soon.

Sovereign Court

Hi Nic and Lou,

No refunds for me, but I am still interested in whatever book comes out.

Best,

Scarab Sages

Nick, I didn't pre-order any products, and I don't know you, other than playing in that crazy 200+ player Drow LARP several years back...

However, I have seen many folks spiral downward in a similar manner, many of them not recovering. You, Sir, are at least being a Man, and addressing your failings. Kudos...

I merely need to point to another Golden-Boy of his craft, who had a promising start, then ...fell mightily...only to rise again to kick ass: Robert Downey Jr.

OK, Yes, a silly parallel, maybe...But, Dude, he is now both Sherlock Holmes AND Iron Man.

Stick to your recovery, one step at a time. Sounds like you have some good help (And a great friend) in Lou. I look forward to seeing your return to this hobby that we all love,Man.

Uriel/Ron

Contributor

9 people marked this as a favorite.

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!


Eric Tillemans wrote:
Louis Agresta wrote:


Me? I'm just sort of the FEMA of collapsed 3PP RPG companies.

Did you mean RPGEMA? From Wikipedia:

"The Role Playing Game Emergency Management Agency (RPGEMA) is an agency of the role playing game (RPG) community, initially created by happenstance and implemented by Louis Agresta on 10 April 2012. The primary purpose of RPGEMA is to coordinate the response to a disaster that has occurred in the RPG industry and that overwhelms the resources of the responsible gaming company. The owner of the gaming company for which the disaster occurs must declare a state of emergency and formally request from Louis Agresta that RPGEMA and the ganeral gaming community respond to the disaster. The only exception is when an emergency and/or disaster occurs due to someone named Richard Pett.

While on-the-ground support of disaster recovery efforts is a major part of RPGEMA's charter, the agency provides gaming companies with experts in specialized fields to help layout and complete projects that are otherwise doomed to never see the printing press. RPGEMA also assists with organizing refund efforts for pre-orders of products by fantatical fans of popular RPG writers of the failed gaming company."

Just out of curiousity, is this a real quote? If so what is the link? I cannot find it. (Note: I am guessing it could be tongue in cheek, Im just curious.) - Gauss


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Nicolas Logue wrote:


Ebon Shroud is a definite cancellation. AGC might happen someday but not through Sinister so please, please, please contact Lou about a refund for those two at the least.

Thanks for the kind sentiments though - you and everyone else - I am ill deserving of such (that goes without saying).

Nic, thanks for the answer - sorry to hear, tough!

Wish you all the best in the future,
dafaddu

Liberty's Edge

Don't sell yourself short Lou, you are truly the man.

Nick, welcome back. No hard feelings; sometimes s&@& happens, just glad that things are improving for you.

I pre ordered several things; I've never missed the money, I consider it a contribution to Nick's website when it was up and running, and the good reads and good conversations I had there, not to mention a contribution to the Indulgences, which were worth far more than I pages for them. I have hoped that at least some of the books I pre ordered would one day come out in some form, and will hold out for the possibility of RC and KUG. Plus am happy to contribute further for Lou's time and effort.

Scarab Sages

Welcome back, Nick. I know it takes a lot of courage to come clean while expecting the (more or less righteous) wrath of some scorned people. I am glad you took the courage and would certainly enjoy seeing you on these boards (and in one form or another in the RPG scene) again.

It's also good to see what friendship can manage - I applaud you for your loyalty and willingless to take on this, Lou.

Regards - Georg.


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Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber
Uriel393 wrote:

Nick, I didn't pre-order any products, and I don't know you, other than playing in that crazy 200+ player Drow LARP several years back...

However, I have seen many folks spiral downward in a similar manner, many of them not recovering. You, Sir, are at least being a Man, and addressing your failings. Kudos...

I merely need to point to another Golden-Boy of his craft, who had a promising start, then ...fell mightily...only to rise again to kick ass: Robert Downey Jr.

OK, Yes, a silly parallel, maybe...But, Dude, he is now both Sherlock Holmes AND Iron Man.

Stick to your recovery, one step at a time. Sounds like you have some good help (And a great friend) in Lou. I look forward to seeing your return to this hobby that we all love,Man.

Uriel/Ron

Couldn't agree more, except... Benedict Cumberbatch is Sherlock Holmes.


Nick,

Thank you for doing this. My father-in-law and one brother-in-law had the same issue (alcoholism). Thank goodness one recovered, however one is still in the dark.

You are a much better man for addressing the issue(s) and taking responsibility for them, and for taken care of yourself.

Good luck, and God bless.

-- david
Papa.DRB

Lou,

Thank you for taking this on. Email sent as I only preordered Ebon Shroud.

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