How to Get Your Money Back from Sinister Adventures


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Sovereign Court Contributor

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Hey all,

There is now a new way to get your money back for any purchases you made from Nick Logue's Sinister Adventures.

Email your request to bgmcubed@gmail.com

I expect to be able to start sending people their money back by the end of the month. I will update everyone here if there are any delays to the start of that process. Money will be refunded in the order requests are received. Everyone who wants their money back can get it.

I extend Nick's apologies if you've already emailed and need to email a second time.

IN THE INTERESTS OF FULL DISCLOSURE
===================================
I need to let everyone who purchased know that there is a tiny, tiny possibility that I might be able to put out Razor Coast for Nick. If I do it will be more expensive than the pre-order price, by a significant factor. The book got a LOT bigger under my development. One of the primary issues preventing this is recovering the art from Nick's crashed hard drive and/or getting his artist's to resend it, years later.

Am I committing publishing RC as this time? NO. Absolutely, not.

WHY ARE YOU DISCLOSING THIS?
============================
If you don't get your money back, and I do put this out you get RC for whatever price you originally paid.

If you do get your money back, and then (by some miracle of personal goodness) decide later that you want RC anyway, you'll have to pay full price. Whatever that is at the time.

If is a tiny little word with a really big meaning, but IF I can help Nick in this way, I don't want anyone to feel they got fooled or ripped off.

Again, this is NOT any kind of promise to release RC in any shape or fashion, whatsoever.

But I have to make you aware of this possibility, now, even if the chances are fairly small. Transparency is important. Anything else would be dishonest.

HOW IS IT POSSIBLE TO GET MY MONEY BACK NOW?
============================================
I've been working with the Logue to help him recover from a computer disaster and otherwise get his ducks in a row.

He agreed -- and did -- release to my management his email and paypal accounts from Sinister Adventures, solely for the purposes of processing return transactions on his behalf.

I'VE WAITED THIS LONG, WHY ANOTHER #$%&#! MONTH?
================================================
What I've got is a giant stack of thousands of unsorted emails across multiple years -- many filled with understandably inventive imprecations -- plus a few years of PayPal statements. I've hired a temporary assistant to sort everything. He starts next week. Then I've pre-arranged extra hours for my bookkeeper to stay on top of payments. And I've got to make sure they do everything right and don't miss anything. It's an extra project I wasn't planning on, and it's going to take a while to get all set. Sorry.

WHY NOW?
=========
I would like Nick to survive Paizocon with all his body parts reasonably intact. He'll have a hard enough time surviving his mud wrestling match with Rich Pett. Pett + a pitchfork mob VS. Logue? No way. He'd never win.

And I only recently had the idea.

And it took me a while to work up the courage to offer him my help with this.

DOES THIS MEAN YOU, LOU, OWE ME THE MONEY?
==========================================
No. Nick owes you. Always did, always will. I did not buy Sinister's accounts from him. I have no legal obligation to anyone for the money. I am not and have never been an employee of Sinister. I was a freelancer. Now I'm a payment processor. Think of me as an unpaid freelance bookkeeper handling the mechanical and accounting steps of refunding people's money. I'm just helping a friend (finally) do right by the community.

WHAT THE HECK DOES BGMCUBED MEAN?
=================================
Figure that out, and I will shower you with accolades. :)

I'm sure there are questions I didn't address: please fire away.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Louis Agresta, saving the universe one refund at a time.

FUNNY FACT: "agrest" means "gooseberry" in Polish.


Gorbacz wrote:

Louis Agresta, saving the universe one refund at a time.

FUNNY FACT: "agrest" means "gooseberry" in Polish.

Lou is a Good Dude (TM)

He makes this (sometimes ridiculous) industry more of a community. Even if some of us dont...Thanks Lou!

SG

Liberty's Edge

I am not asking for a refund, ever. I am staying on course for this. I want Razor Coast, I dont need the money back...

Liberty's Edge

You are a good man Lou.

I take it when you say "crashed hard drive" you mean "physically broken" hard drive not just "microsoft lost start up files" hard drive? It may be possible to recover but it'll cost you all an arm and a leg to do it if it is possible. Is art work really worth that much? (I really have no idea what art work costs for a book like this.)

As to Nick surviving with all his body parts, I wish him luck. It might help if he comes here and/or opens a place where people can talk with him and he can explain his situation better than he has. It'd be a firestorm but it might get the firestorm over with online rather than in person. /shrug


This offer is AWESOME and testament to Louis' stellar character. Personally, I've written everything of - If the books are produced one day, I'll have pre-ordered them.

If not, well, at least this debacle has made a lot of people aware of the stellar quality of the human being Lou Agresta.

Cheers and hang up the pitchforks, fellows!

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Lou, you manage to release RC, I'll buy a copy just because of your effort in a situation that wasn't your responsibility.

Dreamscarred Press

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Lou, I very much respect your efforts in this and the other projects you've taken over. Seriously, you have shown a huge amount of integrity, loyalty, and passion over the past few months and I think it deserves praise.

I know others have tried to take up this torch and it hasn't worked out. I commend you on getting some traction - especially to help make PaizoCon less of a controversy and more of what it should be - an event to enjoy and have fun.

Cheers.


Well that's awesome of you.

Contributor

46 people marked this as a favorite.

Dear Paizo Fans,

First off let me apologize for my long absence from the Internet. I don’t use it for anything beyond work email these days and I am about as far out of the electronic loop as is humanly possible – my own fault, and my undoing on many levels.

I deeply apologize for the debacle that was Sinister Adventures – I can honestly say there has been nothing in my life I regret more than attempting to run my own publishing company. I have done severe damage to my own finances over the past several years, ruined my reputation as a game designer, and transformed a hobby that used to be the most enjoyable part of my life into my own personal mire of misery and shame. But most importantly I have alienated a host of lovely people who love RPGS. I used to take great joy in communicating with my former fans, and felt a growing camaraderie with several of the people who enjoyed my work, or even hated my work, but just downright enjoyed this great hobby. I let those people down, betrayed them, and damaged their enthusiasm for the game, not to mention lost the hard-earned money they entrusted to me through pre-orders.

I dealt with the avalanche of problems Sinister experienced ineptly to say the least. The failure of this company combined with crushing stress from my 90 hour-a-week day job of the last three years shook the foundation of my sense of self. This led to a downward spiral of alcoholism and depression.

My recent move back to Hawaii has restored a great deal of the vitality and psychological well-being I lost over the last few years and I am finally in a place to take serious action against the start-up gaming company that has become my personal nemesis.

I have lost over $15,000 personally on this endeavor through my gross ineptitude as a publisher. I paid for a great deal of top quality art, web design and other start up costs and then as problems arose that siphoned off more funds, I found the company wallowing in destitution. As the problems piled up, I eventually lost any ability to deal with them and kept attempting to tell myself I would “get around to it soon” once I was able to save up more funds and free up more time. I grappled with the idea of bankruptcy, but didn’t want to end up not giving those who trusted me their money back.

Fortunately I have been able to shift some funds around recently and replenish Sinister’s coffers enough to get everyone their money back. To ensure this happens in a timely fashion I will not trust my own dire worthlessness with the task. Instead the heroic Lou is once again stepping up to bat.

Through the invaluable assistance of Louis Agresta – one of the truest friends a man could ask for – I am now in a position to refund all and sundry for their pre-orders to Sinister. Lou has very kindly offered to assist me yet again, this time pooling through my mangled attempts at record keeping to ensure all of you who have not yet been refunded get your money returned.

Lou has posted instructions and details above.

Now allow me to move off my own dire failures as a businessman and human being and move on to a more salient point.

Paizo Publishing is a true gem - A company full of caring individuals who are entirely the opposite of Sinister Adventures. They care deeply about their fans, their authors, and the hobby. From my close contact with them for years, first as a rabid fan and aspiring writer, then as a go-to freelancer, then as a brief employee I have a unique view of the fine people of Paizo inside and out. They are compassionate, professional, creative, enthusiastic, and possessed of a deep well of forgiveness and generosity. They don’t just uphold high standards of how companies should operate – they set the standards as far as I’m concerned.

It hurts me deeply that their remarkable feat of kindness and an attempt to rehabilitate the degenerate hobbyist and writer I have become over the last few years could result in any sort of backlash. These fine upstanding people pour their love, blood and sweat into their company daily.

To those of you hurt by the Sinister fiasco: I implore you to keep the sights of your (righteous) anger focused entirely on me. I will happily give ample opportunity for those of you slighted (or worse) by my mistakes and failures a chance to redress the wrongs you suffered at Sinister (and my) hands. I will gladly listen to your anger, apologize, and try to make amends as best I can at Paizocon. I will attempt to run games for those of you who suffered from Sinister’s flop, languishing in limbo while awaiting news or refunds from me.

I humbly apologize for the long and resounding silence and for thinking I could get things back on the rails.

Thank you for your time and patience. Please follow the instructions and details Lou posted above on how to FINALLY get your money back.

Yours,

Nicolas Logue

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Thank you for proving my optimism was well founded Nick.

Paizo Employee Director of Game Development

3 people marked this as a favorite.

I miss you, Nick. Can't wait to see you this summer.

Contributor

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Adam Daigle wrote:
I miss you, Nick. Can't wait to see you this summer.

Ditto, Daigle! Ditto!

You are one of those people with an amazing aura of goodness that is impossible to not be affected by. I will enjoy basking in you!

Contributor

1 person marked this as a favorite.
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Thank you for proving my optimism was well founded Nick.

Oh, I don't know...I feel terrible about all this now that I'm in a place to process it all more clearly. Deepest apologies again, sir.

Liberty's Edge

Glad to see you back, Nick.

I look forward to meeting you at PaizoCon.

Contributor

Pygon wrote:

Glad to see you back, Nick.

I look forward to meeting you at PaizoCon.

I'll look forward to it, Pygon!


5 people marked this as a favorite.

Nic,

Good call on delegating. That's a stand up move. Also you earn a great deal of respect stand up and owning your mistakes.

Lou,

If you need help, I am here.

Steve Russell.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

*sits in front of the screen gasping* Nick, even though I was angry, I think it's great that you apologized. As far as I'm concerned - I met a bunch of great people via SA. Whether it is Lou Agresta or some other people like Aberzanzorax, Dark_Mistress etc. and I probably wouldn't be reviewing were it not for the site.

I went through a whole spiral of anger, but I don't want a refund anymore - on the off chance of anything resembling RC ever coming out, I'll take that - otherwise, consider my preorders a way of saying "thank you" for the enjoyment your writing has provided for me and my group. I sincerely hope that one day, once the storm has passed, you'll find a way to once again enjoy the hobby and perhaps even write again. (though I wouldn't preorder it...lol.)

May your mental health continue to improve and may you rise like some twisted phoenix from this whole unpleasantness.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Nic, remind me to buy you a Coke at PaizoCon...

Grand Lodge

Nick,
I have never met you, but I've enjoyed your previous work. I've heard all the rumors for the past few years. Some probably have some validity, but much of it I chalked up to internet distortions and skewed personal opinions. I'm glad to hear you are recovering from your "funk." You appear truly contrite and I applaud your willingness to expose yourself in order to correct any mistakes and move on in a positive way. I wish you all the best and look forward to your next project, whatever form that takes.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

So happy to see you back Nick! Please just stick around this time!

Contributor

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Endzeitgeist wrote:

*sits in front of the screen gasping* Nick, even though I was angry, I think it's great that you apologized. As far as I'm concerned - I met a bunch of great people via SA. Whether it is Lou Agresta or some other people like Aberzanzorax, Dark_Mistress etc. and I probably wouldn't be reviewing were it not for the site.

I went through a whole spiral of anger, but I don't want a refund anymore - on the off chance of anything resembling RC ever coming out, I'll take that - otherwise, consider my preorders a way of saying "thank you" for the enjoyment your writing has provided for me and my group. I sincerely hope that one day, once the storm has passed, you'll find a way to once again enjoy the hobby and perhaps even write again. (though I wouldn't preorder it...lol.)

May your mental health continue to improve and may you rise like some twisted phoenix from this whole unpleasantness.

That's ridiculously nice of you. You should get your money back though. That would make me happier. Thank you though! Good to be back in touch. I'll try not to vanish...I'm really not much of an internet guy anymore though. I've become a luddite. Hardcore. You are very good people, Endzeitgeist.

Nick

Liberty's Edge

Nick, I don't know you, I never pre-ordered from you and I'm even somewhat ashamed to say I haven't, yet, got around to reading your adventures, though I've heard they are excellent. But I do know how hard it can be to step up to a group of people and say "I messed up." And I applaud you for it.

Ok, now all that aside, it sounds like you are planning to get Sinister back up and going and start writing again, is that true? / Sorry, my reporter side comes out sometimes.


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Well, this is a nice surprise!

I was one of the people PO'ed the most about SA going down. I've been pretty harsh on you on these boards. But part of the problem (to me) is that you never came out and said exactly what you just said in your post. Having read your post, I honestly feel much better about the entire situation. No one likes losing money, but being left cold with no word from you hurt the most.

As far as repayment, I won't add to your loses. Personally, I was mad because I planned on running Razor Coast with my group and was really looking forward to it! Maybe one day something will come out, maybe not. But I don't need my money back. An apology was enough.

Maybe you can make it up to us by writing something completely awesome for Paizo. That would be great!

Liberty's Edge

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Apology accepted, Nick. As an RC pre-order customer, I appreciate your sincerity and painful candor. I wish you nothing but the best, and look forward to seeing you in Seattle.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Welcome back, Nick! Glad you are sorting everything out.

Silver Crusade

14 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

My supervising Professor says: "Anyone can get lost in the fog. It's important that we help them find the way out of it, not berate them for getting lost in the first place."

Welcome back Nick. You might have dropped a ball or two, but I'll never forget the faces of my players when I ran Hook Mountain Massacre.

Sovereign Court

Welcome back Nic, and well said. It shows the true nature of ones character to stand up and apologize for errors they have made. The company one keeps also speaks volumes, and you can't be in much better company than Lou.

I was not one of the folks affected by the RC incident, though when it was originally announced, it was on my list of products to check out upon release (and still is if Lou's plans come to fruition).

I wish you the best of luck with the the closure of this unfortunate chapter and look forward to, hopefully, meeting you in Seattle in July.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Welcome back, Nic.


I too am one of the pre-order customers who is going to pass on asking for a refund despite being fairly put off by the whole Sinister failure.

Thanks for the apology Nic! I hope you can get back to enjoying the RPG business again and maybe write us some wonderfully sick adventures some day.

Contributor

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I've said it more times than I can count: Gamers are the best people. I'm looking forward to everyone getting their refunds and making amends as best as is possible at this too-little-too-late stage of the game.

Thanks everyone.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Welcome back, Nick.

I will not ask for a refund, plus I am willing to pay shipping and printing for this monster of a book that will have the name Razor Coast printed on its cover... (I am still eager to hold this one in my grubby hands)

What about a last Pathfinder Module in Falcon's Hollow about the election, that you had planned anyway?

If I can help in any way, just drop me a line (or PM here on this board). I have also done a fair share of conversions from 3.5 to PF... (more than a dozen books in the last 2,5 years)

Sovereign Court Contributor

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Well, I'm a sentimental sod. {sniff}

I hope things continue to improve for you, Nick. I've enjoyed each and every one of your works. As someone whose life hit bottom in the last year, I have to say that the climb out of the hole isn't as hard as it looks.

Lou, if you can release RC, I will buy it. I didn't preorder it, but I coveted it with the full depths of my cut-throat greed.

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

On Sunday I watched 'Blues Brothers' and I see some parallels about getting "The Band" back together... "Are you from the police?" "No, we're gamers, Mrs Tarantula"


Nick, for what it's worth, I'm not completely inept regarding conversions/editing/providing feedback - if you need help, feel free to drop me a pm. :)

Sovereign Court Contributor

@Jeff -- I applaud your cut-throat greed, sir. I applaud it! :)
@Oliver -- hah! Great. Love that movie. Now who is The Penguin?

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

Welcome back Nic. Have a experienced a a nasty downward spiral or two in my life, it's amazing how fast it can happen and how hope/denial can allow you to keep telling yourself that "I can power through this!" But it sounds like you're in a much better place now (heck, Hawaii is pretty nice), and I'm happy for you. And thank you for opening up with all of us enough to fill in the blanks about what's happened over the last couple of years.

Nic, you're a great f***ing writer. Maybe not a great publisher, but a great f***ing writer. A few years ago I took a chance and pre-ordered a book you were planning on writing because I wanted my own little piece of your greatness. Things didn't work out. Ç'est la vie. Now, you've gotten to the point where you can start talking to people about what happened and you've done the right thing by offering folks their money back. Me? I'm fine. I'll pass on the refund. Damn, if Lou [my vote for upstanding RPG Man of the Year, by the way] can get RC out, THAT'S what I want. With big autographs from both the author AND the midwife. Heck, I'd even be okay with paying more than I've already paid, consider my pre-order to be a down payment. I know there's no guarantee, but, again, it's a risk I'm willing to take for a piece of something great.

Seeking forgiveness and making amends is part of the process for recovering from any big screw up, but you've started it and I applaud you for it. It won't be easy - a lot of folks are just happy your okay but a few will probably hang on to their anger. Keep your chin up, that too will pass. And then get on with your life. Hopefully writing more kick a** adventures!

Dark Archive

Nick, I preordered both RC and the AGMCB from SA. We exhanged a couple of mails back in the days. I don't want any refund.
I'd like to have you back as an author, for the enjoyment of all the community. But mostly I'd like to know that you're in good health.

Luca


I have preordered RC, Ebon Shroud and the Anarchist Gamemaster Cookbook.

And: I don't want my money back, I still want the books!

Have I told you, that I am patient! :)


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Lou, as always, you come through with a winning solution. I hope I will meet you for the second time at PaizoCon. Orange tux is optional =)

Nic, it takes a big man to walk back and suffer the slings and arrows of outraged fandom. I commend you for your mea culpa, and I hope to meet you at PaizoCon. Despite my disappointment in the disaster that was Sinister Adventures,, I am still a big fan of your work. I do hope that if you carry one lesson away from all this it is that communication with your customers is essential. If I had known how badly things were going on your end I would have been more than happy to give you whatever time you needed. Silence allows rumors and false information to sprout like fungus. It also allowed others to use your fiasco to pimp their own products.

I am staying in RC for now, on the off chance it might get released. I don't know what the status on the Anarchist Gamers book is, but I am willing to let that ride as well until you get your sea legs back Nic. I hope that you recover from your travails and put out some more memorable content in the future. All the best.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Lou, you manage to release RC, I'll buy a copy just because of your effort in a situation that wasn't your responsibility.

I'll kick in a purchase as well, just for the entertainment I've had watching this slow motion train wreck for the last two years.

EDIT : Don't anyone take that the wrong way, it looks like it's all getting cleaned up with no casualties, but I'm jaded enough to admit that all humans like watching train wrecks (if we didn't, NASCAR wouldn't have a following). It's always good when you can watch a train wreck and then feel good about the fact nobody actually got hurt (much). :)

Sovereign Court

Nick,
I was never angry. :) Just sad that you disappeared from the RPG community. It's great to see that you've resurfaced! I'll be looking forward to finally getting to meet you at PaizoCon and hopefully I'll get my dream fulfilled of playing in a game that you run.

See you in a few months,
Trent Revis


Hi Nick! Just wanted to say welcome back - in more ways than one, apparently. I've walked some of the path you've been down myself, and doing what you did in this thread isn't easy. I hope you have a great time at PaizoCon, and that your fans are kind, compassionate, and forgiving about all of this.

Oh, and Lou? I wasn't in on the original Sinister pre-orders, but get this deal sealed and I'll pre-order Razor Coast as soon as it is announced. It's mighty cool of you to do all you've done to (hopefully) make this project come to fruition. [EDIT: Maybe this is something for which you could drum up financial support via Kickstarter?]

I still keep the Wayne Reynolds cover art for RC in my desktop rotation, and whenever it pops up on my monitor, I think, "...Well, maybe someday." It's always nice to know that hope isn't entirely in vain. =]


Awesomesauce!!! Kuddos for Lou and great to see you back Nic!


V.

Sincerely,
Ruemere

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Nicolas Logue wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Thank you for proving my optimism was well founded Nick.
Oh, I don't know...I feel terrible about all this now that I'm in a place to process it all more clearly. Deepest apologies again, sir.

You owe me no apologies sir, I must admit I never took an interest in your products. However, I did take an interest in the anger directly at you, and stepped up to try and temper it. Admittedly, not to defend you, but to try and show that rage would do nothing but harm the host. Patience is a virtue, and I think this turn of events proves that statement without a doubt.


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Ill admit it, I have a totally inappropriate love for Hook Mountain Massacre.

/sigh

Besides the fact he's a great adventure writer, the fact someone will venture into the "belly of the beast" and try and explain and apologize for his actions (whether his fault or not, looks like a little of both in this case)should mean something.

Im not one of the people that got "burned" this time, but its happened to me quite a bit, in this industry and out (I think I was the Champion of the Flame War for years on other boards...).

Pre-ordering a product has a degree of danger. Heck, I know several companies that dont do it as a policy, just for that reason. There are a LOT of things that can change in an instant in this biz, even for the larger companies. A small operation can go out with a whimper just because a shipment gets to a destination a few weeks late. Margins are TINY. Lots of people do this only because they love the hobby, and have day jobs. I admire the Hell out of people who dive in a try to "live" by doing this.

Im not saying Mr. L is not to be blamed at all, Im just saying the guy offered himself up for the lashes, that takes a stand up man to do.

First round is one me, my man!

SG

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Nic,

Welcome home! Both to the messageboards and the States. I'm very glad you got your depression and alcoholism under control and I wish you the best in the future; I know personally about one half of that equation and it will be a lifelong struggle to stay above water. I didn't pre-order, but I am hopeful that Razor Coast comes out. It looks like a lovely product. More to the point, I'm glad you're well and getting yourself back on track. We've missed your particular brand of insanity in our gaming!

Cheers!
James


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
Endzeitgeist wrote:

This offer is AWESOME and testament to Louis' stellar character. Personally, I've written everything of - If the books are produced one day, I'll have pre-ordered them.

If not, well, at least this debacle has made a lot of people aware of the stellar quality of the human being Lou Agresta.

Cheers and hang up the pitchforks, fellows!

What Endz said, and then some.

Dataphiles

2 people marked this as a favorite.

I have always believed that the money I place in pre-orders is money spent on potential. It is an investment in the dreams that people and companies try to bring into the world. Sometimes that investment pays off, and sometimes it doesn't. Never the less, if there remains the shadow of a chance that those Sinister dreams can be made real, then I shall stay invested in that hope.

Good luck!

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