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If you don't want people to expect to get full PA every time then remove the higher tiers of item access from fame.
Currently the table goes up to 99 fame.
to reach say 11th level requires 30 games. assuming 75% faction completion this gives ~52.5 fame.
On a side note, please up the PA award form sanctioned modules, doing too many sanctioned modules can significantly hamper a mid tier characters ability to purchase items
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Don't be so sure..........I think it's highly unlikely that a faction "would get wiped out", especially if it's an entire country. It would take a catastrophic event. The only faction that has a chance of realstically being wiped out is the Shadow Lodge.
Well, whatever is done I'm OK with, as long as it's more interesting than what we currently have. I'm not so sure that everyone will be OK with whatever changes you have planned though.
For me, the most boring faction currently has to be the Lantern Lodge. Worst (and most boring) missions for far in season 3, with the weakest identity. Can't wait until season 4.
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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If you don't want people to expect to get full PA every time then remove the higher tiers of item access from fame.
Currently the table goes up to 99 fame.
The upper tiers are there because it is now possible to play the modules and gain 17th level. Higher levels than that will become achievable as higher level modules are released. Thus, 99 becomes a goal that can eventually be hit.
to reach say 11th level requires 30 games. assuming 75% faction completion this gives ~52.5 fame.
The success rate is higher than that. Speculation is that it is nearer to 90%, not accounting for those characters who played through Season 0 scenarios when only 1 point was available.
Meaning, of course, that if you gain fame through modules, you're hampering yourself even more than what is pointed out in this quote.
However:
...please up the PA award form sanctioned modules, doing too many sanctioned modules can significantly hamper a mid tier characters ability to purchase items
I don't agree with this. I think it should he harder to get fame, and the 66% rate of modules should be more the target (you get 4 fame out of 6 possible if you play a module - which I have read was based on what the developers originally intended to be the rate you would achieve fame).
Again, if everyone is just going to get 100% fame, why have the system?
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The problem is that factions missions both are ostensibly supposed to be secret but they also have a very large impact on a character in terms of quality of equipment.
Therefore when there is a secret faction mission and another players interferes in it for reasonable RP reasons, or just to be a troll, they are getting awful close to PvP in a way. One or the other has to go.
Faction missions can be interesting and secret and cause all sorts of interesting party dynamics, or they can be tied to fame and a character's equipment. You can't have both, because that leads to what we have now where players just implausibly help each other whenever they can, and sometimes unfortunately grief each other's missions.
I think that the links to quality of equipment should go , and open the door for more interesting missions and an environment where olayers are more willing to be contentious about factions.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Well, whatever is done I'm OK with, as long as it's more interesting than what we currently have. I'm not so sure that everyone will be OK with whatever changes you have planned though.Don't be so sure..........I think it's highly unlikely that a faction "would get wiped out", especially if it's an entire country. It would take a catastrophic event. The only faction that has a chance of realstically being wiped out is the Shadow Lodge.
Of course not. We are people, and we all have our differing beliefs.
For me, the most boring faction currently has to be the Lantern Lodge. Worst (and most boring) missions for far in season 3, with the weakest identity.
This, for instance. I know a great number of people who were just dying for a far east faction. I'm with you (I don't like the oriental flavor - for me, it's on a par with the gunslinger, the flavor of which I just cannot stand).
But my opinion carries no weight with the people who play these things. They love 'em.
No accounting for taste, I suppose (-;
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I don't know if it's been said yet, because I haven't read through all 100 posts but if you're going to make Faction missions more secretive, matter, and be a little harder to do in general I would strongly suggest that you add a part to the PFS Guide for each faction that says something to the effect of "Players of characters of these classe (insert class/classes) or who have ranks in these skills (insert skill/skills) will find these factions missions easier/more in line with their character".
For example maybe the Taldor faction lends itself to rogues, sorcerers, and wizards and having diplomacy, bluff, sense motive, knowledge nobility, ect. would benefit members of that faction in completing their missions. Meanwhile the Silver Crusade would be best suited for clerics, rangers, and paladins and having diplomacy, heal, and survival would make benefit those members in completing their missions.
Also, low level faction missions should be a lot less "secretive" than high level missions. Something like "Hey, you've done one or two missions for us so we'd like you to do one more, we need this item retrieved while you're raiding the tomb, if you can't do it yourself get help, just get us the item." and then at high level it would be, "Hey, you've done a lot of work for us in the past but now we need this top secret, ultra important, mission done for us, tell no one and do it yourself (if there are other members of the faction at the table the GM passes them a note telling the players about each other) and make sure that absolutely no one sees or catches you!"
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For me, the most boring faction currently has to be the Lantern Lodge. Worst (and most boring) missions for far in season 3, with the weakest identity. Can't wait until season 4.
Agreed. They currently don't really have any sort of mission apart from 'spread Tian Xia philosophy and extremely-difficult-to-pronounce names throughout the campaign setting.'
They really need to focus their intent. Are they all about gaining territory for Tian Xia settlers/religiously persecuted refugees or businesses? Is Amara Li a Taoist Dragon masquerading as a human? What does a taoist organisation want? Are they more interested in the Starstone than the other factions? Why have they invested so much in gaining a foothold in the Society? What are they after? What is the LL's relations with the various nations of Tian Xia? There are too many questions about why this faction is in play.
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I'm with you (I don't like the oriental flavor - for me, it's on a par with the gunslinger, the flavor of which I just cannot stand).
But my opinion carries no weight with the people who play these things. They love 'em.
No accounting for taste, I suppose (-;
I have no problem with Eastern flavor, for example if they were basically against and rivaling every faction and messing around with the (western) Pathfinder missions in general. However, I've read 9 out of 19 scenario missions for season 3, and they've been decent while within Eastern lands, they've been very boring and bland while in the west. Come season 4 I believe they'll be a fish out of water again, unless something changes.
I agree with you Kestlegunner, LL needs better motivations.
For example maybe the Taldor faction lends itself to rogues, sorcerers, and wizards and having diplomacy, bluff, sense motive, knowledge nobility, ect. would benefit members of that faction in completing their missions. Meanwhile the Silver Crusade would be best suited for clerics, rangers, and paladins and having diplomacy, heal, and survival would make benefit those members in completing their missions.
At one time, they had class recommendations for each faction, but they were misleading imo, and were removed for some reason.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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At one time, they had class recommendations for each faction, but they were misleading imo, and were removed for some reason.
They were changed a bit and moved. If you remember they also included the alignment of the faction. Now, if you check in the Field Guide, for each faction they list a partial, suggested alignment for your character, as well as usual motivations to work for X faction.
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I'm really late to this party, but this has been too interesting to ignore.
Personally I like the factions and the Faction War idea, as that adds some depth. But I'll be the first to agree that it brings out PvP that shouldn't be there. I know because I have a PC who has a merchant background and has to restrain himself from thwarting the Sczarni missions. So, my advice there is there has to be the overriding "don't be a jerk" clause such that the any PC who goes too far in the faction war is "outed" for that session and gets no PAs. Remaining clandestine is a requirement. Basically doing anything that overtly announces your faction costs you that PA.
I think there has to be some mechanism to get the factions to cooperate. Maybe there are 10 different factions, but only 5 unique missions. And you don't know who your allied faction is before you start. And this being politics, the bedfellows can be very strange.
An interesting twist would be that there was only one common faction mission for everyone. Sometimes the factions want the same thing. Naturally, the PCs don't know this at the start.
I especially like the idea that certain factions start with different background information. Obviously that cannot be allowed to make success impossible, but it can add flavor.
Also I'd like to say that there should be an opt-out mechanism. If you don't want to do the faction thing, you take fractional PA and go about your business. If the target is 75% success with faction missions, opting out should give 1/2 or 2/3 of a PA.
Like most folks in this thread, I've focused on faction missions, and not the Faction War itself. I don't think the war should be winner take all. That just isn't how politics works when there are that many parties. In addition to any story line changes, the members of the top 3 factions get a bonus of 3 PAs, and the next 3 factions get 1 PA. The lowest 4 get nothing. This means doing well has its rewards, but the price of failure isn't so high. The bad thing is that the PCs with the highest success rates already have a PA lead, so adding on to that is just increasing the gap. While that makes sense, it might lead to long term dissatisfaction.
And, for the record, I like the idea of killing a faction every year or two. Members of that faction lose all (half?) of their Fame as they switch to another faction. But that would really suck for the occasional PFS member who has no clue about the Faction War.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Chris, if you tally pure points, then there's no possibility that a small faction can outwork a larger one.
As an aside: right now, there's a lot of tables where I hear something ike this:
Player A: "
Player B: "I would be happy to do so, if I might count on your vast education later on."
Player A: "But of course."
Both factions get their missions accomplished. Everybody is happy.
If we kick the Faction War into high gear, with winners and in particular with losers, then we're going to see something more like this:
Player A: "Would anyone more diplomatic than I be willing to assist me in convincing Three Fingers Giovenetti here that he should report back to his father?"
Players B through E: "Not particularly. Helping you is counterproductive to our faction's survival."
Worse, if a Taldan operative fails in her mission, it penalizes her, but it doesn't have much effect at the next table over. If the Factor War gets serious, then I can see Player A (Taldan) getting irritated that Player G (at another table, also Taldan) is continually messing up her missions and costing Taldor points.
(Which may be exactly what Player G wants, secretly sympathizing with Qadira as she does.)
Tell me again, what's the beneficial payout to all this strife?
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Faction wars. Old rivalries are always fun. I think it would be great to see factions having to stop other factions from completing their faction missions.
Faction vs Major Rivalry, Minor Rivalry
Chelaxia vs Andorian, Silver crusade.
Silver crusade vs Shadow lodge, Chelaxia
Grand Lodge vs Shadow Lodge, Sczarni
So on and so forth. I have a Pirate character that would love to mess up the faction missions of some of the other characters in the player pool I play in because he doesn't like the characters. It brings the faction war down to a much more personal level.If I really like your character I might choose to look the other way when you complete yours even if my faction is opposed to it. It allows for a much more in depth role playing. It seems like most of the time down at the local shop as long as the faction missions aren't secret everyone pretty much group hugs and that is pretty bland.
Super excited for this!
Sorry Coraith but what I believe is the opposite of this.
In a system that does not allow PvP this cannot happen. Imagine you have your third level Chelaxian PC at the table and in walks a 15 year old who has just decided to give PFS a go. You get your faction mission and it basically says "stop the Andoran faction mission"
So you throw your weight around IC and mess up this kid's faction mission. What is he going to think? He turned up to play and someone who has more OOC experience and a more powerful IC character screwed him over? That's not a good advert for the game.
Factions should present friendly competition between players and each mission should be difficult. I dislike them personally, they take up too much time in an adventure and act as a distraction.
Instead I would like to see the fame and prestige system completely jettisoned and factions act as a single boon which is given out at the start of the adventure and can only be used in that scenario. Players would then have a flat purchase limit based on level.
I also think that the "winner" of each year should not be based purely on prestige gained otherwise Andoran will just walk each year.
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Faction missions are going to change in focus and become harder to achieve in Season 4. What I'm asking for here is how we should proceed with the faction war, if at all. My understanding is that originally, factions would compete to get ahead of each other every season, and the top faction would receive a benefi of some sort.
I'm not worried so much in the mechanics of how faction missions are achieved. We are already moving in a direction to change that. I'm more interested in the political intrigue, secrecy, and the like, and what the playerbase would like to see to make them a better part of the campaign.
I will bring this to my players this Friday.
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I should have posted this here:
Hi all,
We just came back out of the biggest Con/Pathfinder event run in Australia (Ruby Phoenix) - Which was a great success (more stats to follow), and whilst Pathfinder Society is increasingly growing here there is also an increasing disenfranchisement with Faction missions - specifically how they are written and what has happened to them – I normally don’t weigh in too much with this stuff, but I had enough comments/complaints that I felt that I needed to bring some attention to it.
1.The first issue is that of the innate nature of Faction missions as a flavorful plot hook.
In Season 0, these seemed to be geopolitical. Players enjoyed their singular Faction mission as a ‘hook’ into the world of Golarion, with ties to nations, political issues and what was going on. One of the Key benefits is that missions had clear goals and reasons as to why you were doing your mission. The ‘macguffin’ mission wasn’t that common (unless you were Osiriani, in which case that is all you did). A great example of this is the Cheliaxian Faction mission in Slave Pits of Absalom.
This seems to have changed. Faction heads now seem to send people on arbitrary missions for personal or random reasons. Stereotypes have developed. It has literally got to the point where one player was saying to me ‘what random sexual toy does my supposedly powerful fascist nation wish for me to collect now’ – which is the increasing feel for Paracountess Dralneen. The Faction interplay is something that was initially very well received, but now seems to be just a random task that you have to do with little to no serious explanation. That isn’t that fun, as if it is meant to be a Golarion roleplaying hook – then it should be!
2.The second issue is the PROPHETIC nature of Faction missions.
How is your Faction leader able to know exactly that you will have to veer off course in a storm, arrive at a small island and find a small item for them? Or that you will manage to end up somewhere the venture Captain or you aren't intending on going? Faction missions should be related to the plot of the briefing, and should come in AFTER said plothook to allow PCs to maintain suspension of disbelief. These Faction missions seem lazy and arbitrary, and I had several players refuse to do them at the con out of irritation.
3.The third issue is the instruction clarity and occasional rigidity of the missions.
Quest for Perfection Part III is the most obvious example of this, where the players genuinely don’t know how to achieve their Faction goals, and regardless of how smart, clever, or well they roleplay/work together can only achieve them through sheer luck. (See Shadow Lodge Faction mission)
Ideally, it would be nice to reconcile Factions back into golarion, rather than as a mechanical process for item access, and moreover, TIE THE FACTION MISSIONS TO THE PLOT EXPOSITION. There is a lot of opportunity being missed here, and it is obvious Factions are being created as afterthoughts, rather than though being put into how each mission affects each faction, how much each Faction head should know about the mission, and what realistically is a cool plothook to be followed.
I understand this is already being brought up by my VC, Alistair Rigg – but I felt I should have my feedback provided – as we all want to improve this great game we got going here!
Any insight if other people are getting similar feedback would be interesting.
Regards
Dave Metcalfe (Metz)
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Every faction should have a mission that should change the canon setting of Golarion. If that faction wins the Faction War of the season, that mission should be achieved.
EG:
Shadow Lodge mission Season 4: Uncover the identity of one of the Decemvirate.
Cheliax mission Season 4: Introduce a permanent Erinyes noble into Absalom society, complete with enormous influence over Absalom politics.
Andoran mission Season 4: Replace all Absalom town guard with Eagle Knights, and have Absalom's security privatised into their hands.So, my Grand Lodge hero might actually like the SL mission for that season, and this would influence RPing.
Of course, if Paizo don't want the canon setting changed at all, there's no point in arguing this. Nothing can happen and it'd be best reduced to a +2 to something.
In the interest of trying to pitch in my 2pp (rather than 2cp), I would take this a bit further.
0. The first time a character plays a season mission, that character receives a Faction Boon Chronicle with a checklist. This checklist provides slots for the GM to check off each mission, slots for the GM to check off whether or not the character fulfilled the requirements for completion and slots to check off whether or not the character fulfilled the requirements for the faction mission.
The Faction Boon Chronicle also provides a certain amount of background on the season's faction subplot, thus providing an opportunity for further immersion. This is essentially flavor text, but represents the faction's "campaign" this season.
This campaign text will help tie the faction missions to an overall goal or theme, but can still be just barely cryptic enough so that the faction missions themselves don't have to be obviously connected to it. How does the Andoran PC collecting an artifact called the "Chalice of the Bloodright" relate to throwing off the shackles of oppression and freeing the citystate of Someplace? How does the Cheliax character conscripting the NPC Generico help slip the deus ex machina NPC Agnate into a position to undermine the Decemvirate? Well... I can't wait to find out!
1. The faction war does not need to be a race, but rather a bar to be reached. The boon requirement is then this:
Every character of this faction receives the reward if
a) that faction reaches a predetermined worldwide PA requirement within 1.5 years of the start of the season,
and
b) that character meets certain play requirements within 1.5 years of the start of that season
E.G., if Lantern Lodge gets x PA worldwide, and my Lantern Lodge character meets a certain number-of-missions-completed requirement for the season, she should get the faction's season campaign boon.
This, what I will call the "faction campaign boon" can only be obtained within half a year after the season ends for an important reason: The additional half year gives Mark Moreland et al a bit of space to incorporate changes in the overall positioning of the different factions. The faction game is subtle, remember, and such changes necessarily won't become immediately apparent. They should be revealed either in the second season after the season that caused the changes or in the capstone scenarios of the season directly after the season that caused the changes.
2. To make Faction missions more valuable within this framework, each season's Faction Boon Chronicle will have a second boon that can only be acquired through obtaining at least a certain percentage of Faction PA. This second boon can be obtained at any time during or after the season, as soon as a predetermined Faction Fame requirement is met with only that season's scenarios, regardless of whether the faction itself met the requirement for the campaign boon.
3. Make sure the boons are actually worth something and permanent. Even if they don't apply all the time, they should apply under certain conditions and should apply every time those conditions are met. Such as giving a Chelaxian character the ability to purchase one item at a discount whenever in a Chelaxian city, giving a Silver Crusader a +2 to Intimidate checks against Sczarni NPCs, or giving a Taldan character a +2 to Diplomacy checks when dealing with Taldan NPCs. This variety also needs to be stressed, and should be very appropriate to the faction to which it is given, as I think that it will go a long way to help differentiate the different factions.
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(Warning! Shower Logic ahead!)
I realized one 'curve' in the faction war is that of the five new factions, only one could be considered 'hostile' to the Society as a whole.
Shadow Lodge - Protect the Pathfinders. In and of itself, this isn't really immicable to the Society, just to the leadership.
Grand Lodge - Hostile to the Society only when member(s) of the the Decemvirate are working against the lodge's interests.
Lantern Lodge - Only opposing the Society when what they discover contradicts Tian Xia's wisdom. (for example, the Society discovers a Mwangi civilization that influenced Tian Xia, rather than the other way 'round.)
Silver Crusade - Opposes the Society only when their quest damages the Society's ability to be morally grey.
Those four are mostly 'along for the ride' where the other six are trying to take control/exploit the society.*
In that context, making the 'war' more conflict like w/o making it PVP conflict is possible. It also allows 'team ups'
Warning, long faction missions ahead!
Faction missions-
- Shadow Lodge - Recover the remains of Pathfinder X, who was lost when the first band of Pathfinders had to flee the ruin. Bonus if you can find who ordered that first band in.
- Grand Lodge - Make sure that there's no sign of an 'unsanctioned' pathfinder mission (requires stealing/destroying any documentation on the mercinaries)
- Lantern Lodge - Discover if there are records in the tomb showing philosophies similar to Tian Xia, we can use those to advance our wisdom.
- Silver Crusade - Negotiate with Baron X to release some Saranae worshipers imprisoned (it's in Taldor after all) one of which is a Pathfinder.
- Scarzini - Many ruins have bolt holes or secret exits, find one to help our shipping interests in the area.
- Taldor - Deliver this letter to Baron X, suggesting that releasing the Pathfinder in his dungeon would give him (and Taldor) a debt from the Society.
- Andoran - Free Prisoners in Baron X's dungeon.
- Qadria - Baron X is rumoured to be addicted to Pesh, confirm or deny.
- Osiron - The ruins you explore were marked by a red khopesh in the Pathfinder archives, find if there were any Osiron treasures stored there.
- Cheliax - I've no idea.
In that scenario, you have a Shadow Lodge mission that doesn't scream "I'm on a faction mission" and most people would want to help. Silver Crusade, Taldor and Andoran all have similar enough goals, and the other missions don't conflict. The 'faction wars' continue, but the PCs don't conflict.
I played a lot of Pathfinder Society games originally. Haven't been playing many lately. And the main reason is that I hate the whole faction thing. It sounded cool at first, but now it is just an annoyance. Something that has to be done if you want to buy stuff later.
I think it takes face time away from other players, or becomes an everyone help on all missions. Some missions don't fit the character, and how the faction leaders always seem to know what our Pathfinder mission is and what we will encounter before we ever do it, doesn't really make much sense.
The whole faction stuff reminds me a lot of the Eberon campaign that I played very little of. Really liked the regional campaign design of Living Greyhawk. Went to 4-5 conventions a year back then in multiple states. Now, I haven't gone to a convention in over 2 yrs. Most of the stuff, I can just play at home.
Rather than deal with the faction stuff, I've been playing or judging the Paizo Adventure Paths. But there is a store in my area running Pathfinder Society games 4 days per week. So, I'll be going to 1 a month or so when my other games cancel for some reason and I have some spare time. But the Faction part, I really wish wasn't so much of the evening.
Factions have put Pathfinder Society play at the bottom of my list of interest. I like the general mod objectives and working together as a team. Don't like the separate secret mission stuff at all.
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While I am reading this enormous thread, I thought I would throw this out there:
I think that a great idea for the Faction War is to take a look at what AEG did for their Legend of the Five Rings Race for the Throne event. It made it so that there was differing amounts of success for different groups, an also allowed the "winners" to get get cool benefits, while not making directly for PvP. They've also done things where the "losing" faction faced disbanding.
There were even OOC things that players coul do that could affect their faction's winning (and gaining Prestige), like holding PR events showcasing the game, small local conventions, and even writing and costume contests.
The Faction War doesnt have to include all of these other things, but, we don't have to tie it strictly to Fame. The main thing is to make it be significant to not only our characters, but, to us as players. We have to want to be involved in the game more than just at the table for it to be significant.
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I'd like it if the Factions worked more like the secret societies in the game Paranoia. They exist, and everyone knows they exist because everyone belongs to one, but talking about them is impolite and belonging to one is Treason (everyone's a traitor, the trick is keeping anyone from finding out). Even if two party members belong to the same faction, they don't talk about it because it might be a trick.
In essence, I'd like a focus on the factions being a secret, background, 'meta' thing. I'd like to see people who say "I need to do this for my faction" penalized, and I'd like to see people who openly work against the group penalized. The point of having a "shadow war" is that you aren't supposed to be able to tell there's anything wrong. To represent which faction is "winning", release faction boons throughout the season that give access to a special item, or a free vanity, or maybe a "favor" like a one time success on a trained-only skill.
I'd like to see the items available based on character level and not on fame. If the assumption is PC's only earn 75% of the possible fame, base the magic item availability around that. It would de-emphasize the dependence on Fame, and maybe even return some importance to the scenario chronicles.
Thanks for reading. :)
Edit to add:
Here's a question. Why do we need factions at all?
Realism? How do you expect to have an influential, world-spanning organization and not have groups of people trying to profit from it. Besides, it's too late to retcon them out now...
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I don't want factions to be too secretive. Often times, people need help with their faction missions. You don't have to say it's for your faction. I've pulled the "Would you mind helping me get that thing over there? I have a friend back in Absalom who would be very interested in something like that", without mentioning that my "friend" is my faction leader. Everyone knows it's a faction mission out of character, but in character, they play along.
If you make it too secretive, things get too difficult. After all, this is a cooperative game.
And I actually like the faction missions. They keep everyone involved. Sometimes, the biggest mouths at the table are the ones dominating the game, but if someone has to do something for their faction quest, they have to speak up. I think it's useful that way, if for nothing else.
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I disagree. Wholeheartedly.
We are expected to cooperate on the main mission, sure. But the way faction missions were explained to me, they are supposed to be done yourself. If you can't complete the side mission on your own, that's just tough.
If some other character is better at doing your factions missions than you are, maybe they'll start getting the missions (and the fame) instead of you. :P
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I got the impression at the Grand Convocation that the faction mission(s), even though they were a matter of voting, had a direct impact on the coming season's plot. And even better, the NPC vignettes laid the groundwork for plots and intrigue I imagine I'll see in the season to come. I really liked this.
So here's a suggestion/idea:
-Each season, a faction has an overarching goal within the meta-plot. Make a blog post about it, announce it at GenCon, etc. The goal has a basic threshold of Prestige earned for a basic level of success, but higher degrees of success (or failure!) depend on where the faction ranks for the season in relation to others.
-Each scenario in that season involves some task or objective, as usual, which ties into this goal. None of the PC based actions are direct PvP, but more successes for one faction over another in meta-plot goals in conflict implies that they have bested their rival.
-Don't be afraid to make a scenario that has more to do with Society politics and intrigue over retrieving lost artifacts and knowledge. The Dalsine Affair, the sub-plot/twists to Heresy of Man, the Year of the Shadow Lodge interactive (and season long plot as a whole!)..I found myself invested in these stories. They made me feel like a Pathfinder navigating a complex web of alliances and feuds and not just a Decemvirate gopher. This isn't a feeling I've had since Living Arcanis, which is a great example of factions done well.
-All Prestige points earned in a given year count towards the goal, regardless of what year/season of scenarios were played. That the most 'current' scenarios tie into the stated goal at the moment is to help make them relevant to the meta=plot.
-Set aside a scenario or two each season, as well as portions of the Grand Convocation & Interactive, to address the results and repercussions over the past year (see above note on Society intrigue oriented scenarios). Someone has mentioned boons to the 'winning' faction; I think this is a good idea as well. Make boons for the factions who complete the basic threshold of their goal, along with better boons for those who rank highest amongst the factions.
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The other thing I am afraid of is when a player actually does want to be involved in the political battle. I have a cleric of Sarenrae who takes the faction's political struggle seriously and wants Qadira to win. He, therefore, does not assist other players in their missions if he suspects their action involves their mission. He has good sense motive skills and he's intelligent enough to make inferences. It shouldn't make me a douche because he is built that way. He especially dislikes Taldor because of their laws forbidding his religion. That being said, he happily heals, buffs, etc. and cooperates towards the primary goal.
There are many who share your viewpoint, In season 0 our group actively attempted to stop each other from completing faction missions, and it was all in good spirit and fun. Back then the faction's operated differently then they do now. Which I can totally understand the change because its one thing to screw your friends, but strangers at a gameday? totally different, especially if they can't have fun.
Even now though I would still never help someone complete their faction mission... One game in particular I recall being scoffed at for my Taldan PC not helping convince someone to free his slaves for an Andoran player, which I thought was kind of silly for him to ask of me in the first place.
Sometimes you miss P.A., it happens, the game isn't designed for you to get all P.A. that could be awarded anyway, or else it wouldn't exist.
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Even now though I would still never help someone complete their faction mission...
Well, it depends on the situation. My librarian, who sees the preservation and dissemination of knowledge as his holy duty, would naturally help other people with faction missions if it fits his vision of the world. My rogue helped others, because he was straight up a pathfinder for the fame of it all, and he didn't care *who* was praising him. None of my characters "serve" a faction. They work with them when their goals coincide. Too many players make a (INSERT FACTION HERE) character. Make the character first, see what faction fits. Then stick with what your character would do, and what your faction wants be damned. I *tried* to fail my faction mission in one scenario, because I thought it was a set up to betray someone.
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I'd like it if the Factions worked more like the secret societies in the game Paranoia. They exist, and everyone knows they exist because everyone belongs to one,...
OK, so you want factions to be like Paranoia. I'm assuming you played Paranoia, why would you want to bring the culture of backstabbing, PC killing, and betrayal into PFS? (When it's explicit we want cooperation?). We don't have 6 clones.
You can't have both cooperation and non-cooperation at the table. Screw me over on a faction mission? You'll see a lot less cooperation on the main mission. And I wouldn't help you survive either, you're on your own. Everyone would want someone else to go in the front. That's Paranoia style. In Paranoia it was expected that the party will be dysfunctional. And that was OK because that's what was expected (to backstab and screw your buddies wherever possible) and it was kind of a joke. That was fun, but I'm not sure that's the culture we're striving to create for PFS.
But the way faction missions were explained to me, they are supposed to be done yourself. If you can't complete the side mission on your own, that's just tough.
You should read some of the other posts. When you follow the chain of dominoes it has quite a few unexpected results. There's a reason why everyone cooperates right now.
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New player perspective here. I've only been playing for six months, so I only know Season 3. I knew there was faction conflict in the past, but I thought it was all just setting. I see the differences between factions as fodder for character motivation. I have several characters, all of which have a different faction. The character I play depends on what subtier the scenario is, what the party needs, or just what I feel like playing that day. The idea of cheering for a single faction for a season is completely alien to me. If there's a Great Big Faction Fight, I lose no matter who wins.
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Well, my opinion is biased in some ways. I started playing in year 0, when factions were designed to be antagonistic. Chaosthecold and I played many a scenario at odds, my Cheliaxian vs. his Andoran. And we had our fun. We let another person play at our house, and played the original way, and he went balistic when he didn't get his PA by our actions.
Next thing, he got Brock involved, posted on here, and many many MANY of you called me a bully, and said I was breaking the rules of the campaign. These faction missions have changed so many times since year 0, with strangeness throughout. I don't do them anymore, and find them incredibly annoying, as many do, when they derail the module I am playing. But that's my choice.
In summary, make it just role-playing choices if that is what people want and toss the missions out. People apparently weren't mature enough for the year 0 system, and there's still too much periodic disagreement on these issues. It serves no purpose other than to fractionalize the party and call for a few skill checks. Toss PA while you're at it, give module access to items with favors, and for heavens sake start limiting access before the next magic item compendium comes out.
But hey, according to many, I'm a bully (some prefer 'jerk') so what I mean to say is that 10 factions are awesome, and you should all agree with me. (Reverse psychology works, right?)
Quit being a bully Bill! :-D
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I had a more detailed post, but I guess the post-monster ate it...
I'd like it if the Factions worked more like the secret societies in the game Paranoia. They exist, and everyone knows they exist because everyone belongs to one,...OK, so you want factions to be like Paranoia. I'm assuming you played Paranoia, why would you want to bring the culture of backstabbing, PC killing, and betrayal into PFS? (When it's explicit we want cooperation?). We don't have 6 clones.
Yes, I would like the factions to be more like the secret societies in the game Paranoia. I don't know where you got the rest of that tripe from, because backstabbing, PC killing, and betrayal are very specific things I didn't say.
You can't have both cooperation and non-cooperation at the table. Screw me over on a faction mission? You'll see a lot less cooperation on the main mission. And I wouldn't help you survive either, you're on your own. Everyone would want someone else to go in the front. That's Paranoia style. In Paranoia it was expected that the party will be dysfunctional. And that was OK because that's what was expected (to backstab and screw your buddies wherever possible) and it was kind of a joke. That was fun, but I'm not sure that's the culture we're striving to create for PFS.
You can indeed have elements of cooperation and non-cooperation in the same game. Have you never before been forced to work with people you don't like on projects where you didn't see eye-to-eye? You can't just say "Screw you, I'm not helping you get the presentation done by Friday because I don't want you to get promoted." Why do you make the assumption that secret faction missions have to be adversarial? Why do you make the assumption secret faction missions would have any effect on the main mission? Adversarial players will certainly use them as an excuse to be disruptive, just as they do now. But that problem isn't fixed by throwing out factions altogether.
Again, how did you extrapolate from my post that I wanted the entire game to be more like Paranoia? I don't, just so we're clear.
But the way faction missions were explained to me, they are supposed to be done yourself. If you can't complete the side mission on your own, that's just tough.You should read some of the other posts. When you follow the chain of dominoes it has quite a few unexpected results. There's a reason why everyone cooperates right now.
I would love to. Can you link me to some of them, so that I can better understand why you so fiercely cling to such an irrational position?
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This is going to be a long post guys but I really hope that you read down to (or skip to) the end as I will have some suggestions that I think would work very well.
Problem 1: Why should I care?
Amara Li invites you to her mansion and asks you to retrieve item X as it is of great personal significance for her. So what? Why should I? What are you paying me? Nothing? Screw you! I'm not Lantern Lodge, why do I give a damn what you want lady?
Problem 2: Faction Mission Accomplishment.
When a faction mission is the result of a single dice roll, in unfairly penalises low-skill point classes. PFS should aim to have an even playing field no matter what you are playing.
Problem 3: Faction Mission Secrecy.
When given a faction mission, why do you need to keep it quiet? From what I've seen at games, quite often the "end result" of some faction missions are the same. Why not work together to achieve them? Each faction may be benefitting in a different way from achieving this goal.
Problem 4: Fame and Prestige.
A level one character undertakes a simple, usually easy to accomplish misison and gains 1 bonus Fame/Prestige. An 11th level character is undertaking a very deadly mission that the whole faction itself may be in a lot of trouble if he screws it up. He pulls it off and gets 1 bonus Fame/Prestige. That doesn't seem right.
Possible solutions:
Faction second, PFS first!
Each scenario gives you one "Pathfinder Society Fame/Prestige". You also have the option to do a "side mission" (just like now) for your faction and gain one "Faction (insert name here) Fame/Prestige".
Why should you care about Amara Li's problem? Simple, because she is very influential in the Pathfinder Society and will probably recommend you for future mission. You have however done a personal favour for her - that should translate to a one-use boon that is relevant. Tier dependant of course. Doing a "favour of convenience" for her at first level should translate to something that she can ask a secretary to do in five minutes. Doing an 9th level favour for her is something that will inconvenience her personally - that's how favours are repaid.
Prestige/Fame need to be separated a little more.
A low level character will need to do a few missions before his "Fame" is recognised by anyone, whereas a high level character already has bucketloads of Fame, he is a household name, but wants to call on more resources.
A suggestion could be that at low levels you get "Prestige" only. Once you hit level 3, then people start to know who you are. Until then you are, "That guy I've seen around doing a few odd-jobs for the Society - good for them, give them a wand and send them on their way. If he lives a bit longer I might bother to find out his name".
Mid level PCs are now working to establish their fame and do so without taking in return. For example, a 5th level PC might choose to gain two "Fame" instead of one fame and one prestige. Perhaps a "buy fame" system could be used. That is where you trade in Prestige for "Fame" points/ranks. The benefit of this is that only PCs of X rank can have access to Y materials/services.
High level PCs have so much fame they don't know what to do with it, they can't get any more "famous", but they should be able to trade Fame off for perhaps two or three prestige. "Lord Kight Blah-Blah wants something from the coffers - why is he still waiting for it?!?"
Ultimately, it is the Pathfinder Society Fame that is tied to the list of things you can buy. Faction fame can be used to modify that list. Some factions come by certain things easier than others. Eg. Silver Crusade can have that guy bought back to life in a jiffy (due to the multitude of Priests in the staff room) where as Taldor are going to bicker about what noble house he belongs to and how that will affect the overall political power balance.
Faction Missions:
At low levels, what are they really expecting? "Yeah, I guess we could use more of X, okay bring me some and you'll be rewarded blah blah". Why should you need to keep these secret? Such tiny things are not going to really have a huge impact on the overall "Faction Shadow War" when all said and done. Heck 95% of PC's shouldn't even know there IS a "shadow war".
In real life politics, the UN sends in a "Peacekeeping" force to a region and countries A, B and C all pledge support. Is that out of the goodness of their hearts? Hell no! It is because each of those countries, for whatever reason, want something from the situation. The same can be said of the factions. They all want something, but those things do not need to conflict and ultimately in PFS "COOPERATION" is the optimum word. If the party "Face" helps you to achieve your mission, your mission is STILL ACHIEVED. Let's be realistic here folks (yes, talking about realism in a fantasy game - I should be flogged), if the end result is the same, the mission IS successful. If he was asked to bring back "Document X" and he does so - it truly does not matter HOW he did it. Why did the party "Face" help him? Maybe he is counting on the barbarian to help keep him alive or intimidate NPC Y for his faction mission another time.
Achieving faction missions should be more "open-ended" and VERY rarely based on a single skill check roll - as stated above, this unfairly penalises low-skill rank classes. HOW you get the mission achieved can be through a variety of means (some may even have consequences).
PC: "Yeah, I got the documents you wanted boss".
Faction: "Yes, but did you have to KILL the guy who had them?!?"
PC: "Umm, he said he wouldn't hand them over, so I chopped his head off. End result is still a win, right?"
Faction: "This is what we get when we send the Barbarian! Thanks to you we now know nothing of the replacement and have to start gathering intel all over again!"
**Apply to chronicle sheet: Bloodthirsty x 1 - When you reach three of these, you are no longer offered Faction missions: "Finese", "Diplomacy" or "Secrecy". Each one can be bought off with 2 Fame (essentially proving you are not a mindless killer in two other successful missions to "redeem" yourself).
As for the, "Why should I care?" section. Perhaps have some gold upfront. I played in one mission recently where not only were they not paying you anything, but you had to haul your butt through the mountains for one week - they provided no transport, they didn't provide warm clothing, hell they didn't even FEED you! All of these are added expenses just to play the game! As a first level character with no spare gold - I was kind of screwed!
You are just expected to do all of this on the hope that you'll kill some monsters along the way and loot their corpses. I can wander off and do that myself thanks all the same. ;)
So, to summarise:
1. Loyalty to Pathfinder Society first, faction second.
2. Fame/prestige of main mission is PFS Fame/Prestige, not Faction.
3. Separate and better define Fame and Prestige.
4. Have certain Factions adjust the cost of items/services.
5. Adjust Fame/Prestige for levels and have items only available at X fame rank.
6. Upfront (portional) gold or get the, "Why should I care?" factor.
7. Perhaps bonus Faction prestige when doing a favour for the head of your faction. Paizo will need to make sure these are distributed evenly.
As for "Faction winners". I think it is a bad idea to go on raw numbers as many people have said before. I also think it is a terrible idea to disband factions (some poor player shouldn't lose a heap of Fame/Prestige just because his faction is unpopular). Hell other factions would actually pay quite well for such a hero to join their side. :)
In truth, I think that the bottom three factions should actually produce, "Desperate times call for desperate measures" boons. This will encourage players to give them a go and even out the playing field a little. The absolute bottom faction should have, "It's now or never!" boons (more powerful) as the leaders of the faction pool their resources and skills to stop from slipping into obscurity. Obviously, these would only apply for one season.
I know that is quite a bit to read and if you've made it this far - thank you very much. I'd be very interested in some constructive feedback and discussion.
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This is going to be a long post guys but I really hope that you read down ...
Holy Wall of Text, Batman!!
So ... I want to say thank you for putting so much time and energy into the thoughts that you've presented here. It clearly shows that you are interested in the betterment of the Pathfinder Society.
There's some that I desagree with, but, I will say that this is a very thorough job, and I wish there were more people that put the same evaluation their posts, with logical explanations, and clarity of reason.
I'm not a fan of the faction system, but...
Problem 2: Faction Mission Accomplishment.
When a faction mission is the result of a single dice roll, in unfairly penalises low-skill point classes. PFS should aim to have an even playing field no matter what you are playing.
...I think you have this backwards. Skill checks are put in there as an attempt to even up the playing field (i.e. to give a reason to play high-skill point classes that are weaker in combat), not an attempt to make it uneven.
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Yes, I would like the factions to be more like the secret societies in the game Paranoia. I don't know where you got the rest of that tripe from, because backstabbing, PC killing, and betrayal are very specific things I didn't say.
Well, you said you wanted factions to be more like secret societies in Paranoia. In Paranoia, your faction missions are often at odds with the main mission and often come into conflict with the rest of the party (often involving killing one of them or planting evidence etc). Especially when it comes to members of opposing SS. As a matter of fact, you actually get prestige points for killing members of opposing factions/SS.
Woot, killing Qadirans!
Here's the quote about Paranoia from Wikipedia in case anyone is curious.
See?
Maybe you were just playing in a carebear campaign of Paranoia and this is where we have the misunderstanding.
You can indeed have elements of cooperation and non-cooperation in the same game. Have you never before been forced to work with people you don't like on projects where you didn't see eye-to-eye? You can't just say "Screw you, I'm not helping you get the presentation done by Friday because I don't want you to get promoted."
People I don't like get fired, so that's a bad example.
Office backstabbing is a little different than backstabbing in RPGs, which is often fatal. In addition, one of the tenets of Pathfinder society is to cooperate, so non-cooperation isn't an option.
Why do you make the assumption that secret faction missions have to be adversarial? Why do you make the assumption secret faction missions would have any effect on the main mission?
Because you said you wanted them to be like Paranoia? Did you read the Wikipedia quote above? If the missions aren't adversarial, they're not like Paranoia.
And if they're not like Paranoia, maybe you should explain how you want them to be different so we can understand.
For now I'm going to assume that you just want all missions to be secret.
I would love to. Can you link me to some of them, so that I can better understand why you so fiercely cling to such an irrational position?
Hey, I have no problem helping you out with your confused and irrational position. There are several posts in this thread you should review.
Here are some problems off the top of my head with secret missions:
1) Solo missions take time and when time is already at a premium, they don't work. I don't really want to see 6 people all do 5-10 minute long secret solo missions.
2) If there is no adversity involved, there's not reason to keep them secret. Plus, we're all seated around the table, they're not really secret anyway.
3) If missions are secret and skills are needed, they strongly favor certain classes. Players will adapt and you'll see a lot less of certain classes and a migration to other classes.
4) Prestige is tied to gear, which makes it too important, strongly altering the power of not only the individual, but the group too. It's actually in the best interest of the group to have everyone succeed.
(In Paranoia, it's good for you to have everyone fail or be a traitor, you get promoted faster.)
There have already been a lot of complaints about "secret" missions on the forums, but everyone is allowed to have an opinion.
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I have always enjoyed faction missions, and it's probably one of the reasons I switched to PFS from another system. I also like helping others complete their faction missions with my bard, Ales. Furthermore, the idea of a "Faction War" is something I would enjoy. However, While I like the idea of competing faction missions, it would be tough to pull off. We have ten factions, and only six, at best, would be represented at the table. It's possible, however unlikely, to never see your competing faction.
Perhaps a fix to that is to add a single all encompassing third faction mission that will make all seated factions compete against each other. For example, the first pathfinder to find the jeweled watchamacallit in the scary place gets the faction mission completed. Or perhaps the first pathfinder to gain the influence of corrupttown's mayor completes the mission. I really haven't given this much thought, and I'm sure there are kinks that would need to be straightened out.
As for rewards for faction missions, I would like to see boons and a an option to receive faction enhanced wayfinder. Also, Have faction war rewards scale based on the total amount of fame you have earned.
There's a lot to cram in to a single session, and I don't want to stray to far away from the scenarios main goals. So far it's a formula that works well and doesn't need to much tweaking. You also have to be careful, because like most things, some people take things far to seriously and feelings get hurt when it comes to competing. So please be mindful when creating these challenges.
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I guess I might as well put in my 2cp as far as the Faction Wars go.
If Fame wasn't tied to your spending limit, I would be all for the concept of competing factions and missions that may contradict one another. The thing is, by limiting your purchasing power by your fame, if you happen to not be a skill monkey or if others are competing and beating you out for prestige, then you'll be seriously gimped with what equipment you can get as you level up.
Yes, you'll still get half every time for completing the overall mission, which is good, but if you've only managed to get half the possible prestige that's still going to leave you at a huge disadvantage.
Sure, you can say tough cookies, sucks to be you, but if I were constantly being forced to fail by others in the party, I'd stop playing. However, if fame wasn't a limiting factor on my ability to spend gold on gear, I wouldn't really mind. Yeah, it'd be nice to have in case I died, or wanted to make prestige purchases, but it wouldn't leave me starved for protective/buffing gear at the higher levels.
As it stands now, the current system works alright, though I'm not terribly thrilled about it. Sometimes I get missions that really make me feel like I'm a member of a given faction and that I'm working toward their goals, but most of the time it just feels like I'm doing some random, not entirely related, task for the simple fact that I have to have a faction mission.
As for secrecy, I don't feel asking for help is out of line. As many have mentioned before, going, "Hey, perceptive friend of mine, if you spot Item-X, could you let me know? I have a friend that would love to get their hands on that," seems fine to me. You don't have to say it's for your faction head, and if you're good enough with wording, it wouldn't even have to sound suspicious to the characters. Players would know, of course, but the in-character stuff would be good. Also, I can think of only one faction, really, that should primarily be operating in secret, as the Sczarni are essentially a crime family. That doesn't mean they couldn't ask for help in creative ways, but for the most part I wouldn't expect those characters to announce their faction affiliation.
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Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Columbus
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I guess I might as well put in my 2cp as far as the Faction Wars go.
If Fame wasn't tied to your spending limit, I would be all for the concept of competing factions and missions that may contradict one another. The thing is, by limiting your purchasing power by your fame, if you happen to not be a skill monkey or if others are competing and beating you out for prestige, then you'll be seriously gimped with what equipment you can get as you level up.
Yes, you'll still get half every time for completing the overall mission, which is good, but if you've only managed to get half the possible prestige that's still going to leave you at a huge disadvantage.
Sure, you can say tough cookies, sucks to be you, but if I were constantly being forced to fail by others in the party, I'd stop playing. However, if fame wasn't a limiting factor on my ability to spend gold on gear, I wouldn't really mind. Yeah, it'd be nice to have in case I died, or wanted to make prestige purchases, but it wouldn't leave me starved for protective/buffing gear at the higher levels.
As it stands now, the current system works alright, though I'm not terribly thrilled about it. Sometimes I get missions that really make me feel like I'm a member of a given faction and that I'm working toward their goals, but most of the time it just feels like I'm doing some random, not entirely related, task for the simple fact that I have to have a faction mission.
As for secrecy, I don't feel asking for help is out of line. As many have mentioned before, going, "Hey, perceptive friend of mine, if you spot Item-X, could you let me know? I have a friend that would love to get their hands on that," seems fine to me. You don't have to say it's for your faction head, and if you're good enough with wording, it wouldn't even have to sound suspicious to the characters. Players would know, of course, but the in-character stuff would be good. Also, I can think of only one faction, really, that should primarily be operating in secret, as the Sczarni...
maybe the problem then is that the faction award is too much compared to the main mission. make the main mission worth 1.75 points and each faction mission only worth .25 points (or some other percentage)
then missing a faction isn't killing--but still amounts up over time to make it worthwhile
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I don't really think trying to divide prestige up into fractions is the best way to make things work. I just think that removing the Fame tie to purchasing power would make faction "wars" more feasible, since you could actually have competing factions with conflicting missions without completely gimping the failing party. Of course, I really don't think all missions should be conflicting, since Prestige is pretty closely linked to not losing one's character at lower levels. That, and honestly just because they're competing, doesn't mean factions can't occasionally have similar or linked goals that might encourage cooperation.
EDIT: My logic for wanting to remove the Fame link to spending limit and not other things is that, if you don't have the rez cushion of prestige, you can play it safer and be more cautious to try to not die. If you don't have the ability to spend enough gold to buy your gear, you'll be less effective and may catch flack from your tables.
For example, to get a +2 weapon right now, you have to have 27 fame. Calculate that at 2 prestige per scenario, 3 scenarios to a level, you can get that partially through level 4 if you get most all of your prestige (as many players expect and achieve currently). If you were only to get half that, say due to failing too many faction missions or, if the faction war were to cause conflicts, were forced out of it by another faction, you wouldn't be able to do that until 9th level. Yes, it's a bit extreme to compare all to nothing, but that's the sort of difference you'd be looking at if someone were to fail too many missions.
Now, if spending limit were based on your level, rather than your fame, then once you had the gold from successfully completing the main missions, you'd still be able to gear up even if you weren't very good at forcing others out of their faction missions, or didn't want to do that.
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Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Columbus
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I would agree jack except for we seem to be torn
if there is too much reward for faction missions it would lead to people playing cutthroat if it was competitive--or be "cooperate and graduate" for the most points as happens now
if there is too little reward, then people dont bother