Dedicated Voter Season 6
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Seriously, my first reaction was, “What the F! They hated this item, how did it make it?!”That's a perfect example of what I am talking about. I can't change that. That's a YOU problem, not a ME problem.
You seriously thought we "hated" an item but put it in the top 32? Let alone in the keep folder? Think about that for a minute. Does that even seem reasonable to you?
I'm not going to put "oh my gosh, this is so shiny" at the start of a thread just to make sure you know I liked something that got put in the keep folder.
Sorry Clark, didn't mean to hit a nerve. I certainly wasn't suggesting that you post disingenuous commentary.
Logically, yeah, I know that if its a top 32 item, you guys had to like something about it, else it wouldn't be there. You guys have a lot of credibility in my book.
I just would like to see why you liked it, as well as what you think needs work. Knowing why you liked a top 32 item will help me tremendously when I go to vote.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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Dedicated Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7
aka primemover003
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At first I agreed with the OP. The comments of the Top 32 seemed pretty harsh. In fact it seemed like a few of them weren't well liked at all by the judges. But you have to take a step back and look at it again. The harsh commentary makes you a better designer, but it'll keep you grounded as well.
Last year I made it in on my first try, BOOM! Then I sputtered out in round 3. I learned a lot. I saw where I faltered and why (at least I think I do). So I came into this year thinking, "I got this, I know what the Judges want. I'm a freaking Vrockstar baby!"
Then I saw that I didn't repeat. Hell I didn't even make the keep pile! So I waited for my critique with baited breath and saw that even though I was ultimately rejected, the comments were still a lesson. I learned at least one of the judges thought my idea was cool, but that I had gone overboard in designing my item (pun intended). My item was very niche, a plot device even and it had too many bells and whistles. What do I take out of this for next year? The motto is KISS.
Understanding the format and the writing style is something anyone can learn if they do their homework. RPG Superstar is a competition, but in the end you're taking on a work assignment. Freelancing is about following directions, meeting deadlines, word counts, AND having some great ideas put forth. If you think you have mojo then keep competing. Superstars don't let a little rejection or harsh words stop them.
Just last week I sent feedback to one of my regular freelancers (who happens to be a Superstar veteran). I told him "this was well done, I don't have to cut any of it, now work on improving these five issues." 75 words of praise, 300 words of critique. His response was "thank you for the feedback"... because he knows it took me a half an hour to type out that criticism, he knows I value my time, and by spending that time on him I'm saying his work is good and I want to use him in future projects.
(Disclaimer: I'm not the guy he's referring to)
But I have been the guy who has gotten those e-mails. And you treasure them, because otherwise you could be just fumbling around in the dark never knowing whether a Developer is going to cross you off the list for something you don't realize you're doing. When Sean and Developers like him give feedback, they're doing their part to help you succeed. It may not feel like love, but they're throwing you a life line.
Its really fun being on the other side of the Contest, and I feel so lucky sometimes. Nevertheless, it's different when the contest is over and you're working as a contracted employee. Its still really fun, but you're a contracted employee.
As a side note, Mark Moreland gives good feedback too.
Trust me, when you get your second, third, or fourth contract.. you won't feel so sensitive about an editor's remarks.
Ha, I wish! No, I wrote flavor text for The Last Airbender TCG, the Pirates of the Caribbean TCG, and the Vs. TCG (which features the Marvel and DC characters), all of them published under license by Upper Deck. I didn't mean to mislead anyone with the above statement... they all were licensed and thus had to be approved by the owners of said properties, but it's not like I was writing dialogue for the Airbender cartoon or the Pirates movies...
lol I went to IMDB and typed in Sean Reynolds because of this! sadly... you were not under LA or PotC. But I have to ask if that is the same SKR that I do find?
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Star Voter Season 6
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...You wrote for The Last Airbender? I loved that show!
Sean doesn't like to talk about it...
They took some pictures of a young Sean Reynolds his father donated and used him as the model for Ang.
Yes, just like Ariel was based on Alyssa Milano, little Ang is based on little Sean.
;-)
lol I went to IMDB and typed in Sean Reynolds because of this! sadly... you were not under LA or PotC. But I have to ask if that is the same SKR that I do find?
I don't find Mr. Danceys criticisms to be "superstar judge" level.You don't have any basis to have such an opinion. You aren't actually seeing everything Ryan writes. In fact, if an item is even remotely interesting, he had a checklist system he used for his evaluations that was great. You really need to be more careful with comments like this. Your comment seems more like sour grapes aimed at judges because you are mad. Given that Ryan saved D&D and oversaw the creation of 3E, made it open, which led to Pathfinder, I don't know that you could have a more appropriate judge. And his comments, while sometimes short, were always super-insightful and spot on, in my view. I loved his commentary, because he brings a view that is so different from mine. It enriched the contest, no doubt. To suggest otherwise is just not correct. Now, you may or may not see that. But I can assure you Ryan did not mail it in. Neil writes the most words in any given thread, Ryan probably the least but often most directly and with most impact, Sean and I in the middle with Sean's stuff being way more rules-fu.
[Edit] You know, I have to just pull back. It's silly that I even had to consider the idea of defending whether Ryan mailed it in. That's just crazy. Not sure why I even bothered to post this. It goes without saying.
You didn't need to, Clark, no -- but it's commendable (to me, at least) anyway.
One of the most memorable things I took from the RPG Superstar seminar at PaizoCon last year was Ryan's remarkable ability to sum up in twelve words what Neil and Clark had been talking about over the past couple of minutes. Neil's an explainer, Clark's considering the "wow" factor, and Ryan's a bottom-line, "what good is it?" kind of guy.
FWIW, as I read the reviews, I had the benefit of being able to hear the voice of each judge as I read the judges' comments, which seemed to fit the personalities of each judge well. That's unquestionably a terrific advantage to have.
Thanks for sharing that big piece, Sean. I appreciate where you are coming from, and I look forward to learning from every flaw you think it's worth pointing out in my work.
Contributor
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Dedicated Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9
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When I saw the comments, my first reaction was "wow, my item must have been the last one they picked", but then I viewed the comments the other items got and realized that almost everyone got flak for something.
I'm a little bit stubborn by nature, but I also learn from my mistakes. When I receive well-placed but negative feedback (especially if worded in a harsh way), I might sulk for a day, admit that "maybe they're right" the next day, and finally, two days later I agree with them.
My last name literally means "Rock", and sometimes I'm just like a big stupid rock with my opinions: immovable. But if I only get nice comments, I grow complacent and cannot grow as a designer, as a person.
So, judges and voters, promise me this: Be as harsh as is necessary, but also tell me how I could do better.
And I promise you this: If your votes take me to the next round, I promise I won't make the same mistakes again.
To the Top 32: Congratulations. You made the first cut. Now you're in boot camp, and for the next nine weeks I'm going to ride your ass and push you to work hard so you can do your best work. Because you want to get paid to write games and I can make that happen, but only if you're willing to make the effort. You're good... now listen to how you can be even better.
*drops and begins to write 100 monster entries*
.
.
.
Seriously, like many of my fellow Top 32 peers have already commented, we don't need our egos buffed. We made it into RPG Superstar! Higher praise is hard to phrase in words. What we need more than anything is feedback that will allow us to stay in the contest for as long as possible - and that includes knowing what mistakes to fix.
I bear Ryan Dancy no ill will, even though he didn't recommend my item. His observations were accurate, and useful.
James wrote something in another thread that I've been meaning to respond to:
I know folks love to get feedback, but it's important to keep one thing in mind—this isn't RPG Study Hall. The point of this contest is to find new authors, not to make new authors. That the judges are willing to go the extra mile to provide feedback to folks who didn't make the top 32 is admirable, but it DOES take a fair amount of extra time. Time that the judges don't always have available to give.
James may be right about Paizo's reasons for hosting RPG Superstar, but I think he is wrong. This IS RPG Study Hall. There is SOOOO much to learn from following this contest, from reading all the comments to listening to the panel recording. Not just about making magic items, but on all aspects of the game.
You just have to separate yourself from the advice dealing with your own entry and learn to look at the big picture. Prior to my first entry in 2010, I had never made a magic item in my life. I had no clue about concepts like action economy or game balance, at least not on a conscious level. But I spent hours reading, and reading and reading, soaking up all of the knowledge that is stored in the threads of the Superstar forum.
So I can say without a doubt: Everything you need to know to become a Superstar is already right here on the forums. You just have to spend the hours to actually read it. And then frame your mind to LEARN from it.
My last name literally means "Rock", and sometimes I'm just like a big stupid rock with my opinions: immovable.
Heh, my name means rock, too. And I can relate to that behavior. But I think every person with strong opinions about their work suffers from this; people submitting their items obviously think they are on to something, or they would have cooked up something else. Negative feedback or anything that goes against an established belief is initially met with resistance until we can reflect for a while and reform that original belief (that your item is flawless, for instance). It's called cognitive dissonance and it's perfectly natural (and is less cheesily explained in this link).
O Judges of Infinite Wisdom and Toil, your responses here are much appreciated. I wanted to chime in with Andrew here, though, because I feel there's an important point that I'd like to be certain is recognized.
There is no question in my mind that the feedback you are providing to the contestants is excellent, thorough, top-notch - and extremely necessary. I don't think anybody here is asking for less biting criticism, or softer gloves or whatnot. What people do feel is a lack of attention to the other end - the positive feedback along with the negative. Given the bulk of your responses, I feel like I need to explain that feeling, and elaborate on why I feel it's crucial.
Sean, you summarized very well:
My comments on the Top 32 are exactly the sort of comments I'd give to a new freelancer who I'd like to continue working with.
Absolutely correct, and such comments are invaluable. But your comments are serving a double purpose here. They're showing a freelancer where he needs to improve... but they are also, for all but 32 of this contest's enthusiastic fans, our very first introduction to the competitors we're going to be spending the next few months with. That whole audience wants to get excited. They want to feel they're seeing impressive, outstanding, innovative design. And they know you're the judges of that. So, if this were a book, you're not only giving the author a much-needed editing request - you're also providing a book review to all the people who haven't read it yet. Or, sticking with the idea of a critique - the best critiques doesn't only point out areas for improvement; they dwell heavily on the positive as well, highlighting the unique and exceptional elements of the work being considered.
The crowd here understands this duality perfectly well, so they will be well-equipped to deal with feedback like "This is awesome because of XYZ, but your ABC is totally sucky" or "Man, this item is a [snozzcumbrish fargleblatt], REJECT -- but, no, wait, I see some real potential here for a [scrumdidlyumptious whizzbanger]!". But if you spend the overwhelming majority your focus on the negative, and assume the positive is obvious (or implied - c.f. "`Keep` is the best praise there is!"), then the audience is understandably led to believe that the item didn't really excite you all that much. The contestants don't worry about that, or care. That's fine - they're already plenty excited, and they hardly need any convincing that their item's awesome. The audience, on the other hand, might need more of a hand (hey, if good design considerations were easy, everyone'd be doing 'em...). So while I understand why the comments look the way they do this round, I think it's extremely important not to curb your enthusiasm here.
What really helped me out with this, BTW, is the comments from last year's top-runners. They got the items knowing they were going into the Top 32, and they were able to write much more in the form of a review than in the form of a discussion. Special kudos to Sam, whose comments I found dead-on and insightful, and to Sean, who really made sure to recognize both the good and the bad. But the Top 4 aren't the judges. They chime in later, and more importantly - they're not the gatekeepers. And Round 1 is so very, very much about the gatekeepers.
That's what I wanted to say. I'm not complaining or saying mistakes were made; I'm just saying I think Andrew put his finger on something really important to bear in mind next time around. I'm really glad Neil and Clark have been so open and receptive, and as Neil said:
It's a worthwhile dialogue, regardless. And, as always, the Paizo community is head-and-shoulders above any other community when it comes to discussing the meta-aspects of this contest.
Believe me, that's not gone unnoticed, and 'tis very very much appreciated :)
I had to learn to deal with critiques back in college. We did our projects and at every point we were critiqued and again at the end of the project. It was always possible to find a place where our classmates could improve or could have made something clearer. I found it a really fun and collaborative way of working and learning.
Now fast forward to the present. I volunteer for a non-profit that is based far north of me and I have co-volunteers. I have to give some constructive criticism to one of them (for something that would be dealt with by HR in a corporate environment, HQ is far away). She freaked out at me and I had to give her a speech about how this was meant to be constructive and to help her in the future. She's twice my age and she couldn't take criticism until I explained it's purpose. I'm still not sure she understands.
As I've said several times already, I love being critiqued. I also love defending my decisions and being sarcastic about them same time. Keep that in mind for any non judges that comment on my entries, I do take your comments how you mean them to be received, even if it looks like I don't.
-Xander
What really helped me out with this, BTW, is the comments from last year's top-runners. They got the items knowing they were going into the Top 32, and they were able to write much more in the form of a review than in the form of a discussion. Special kudos to Sam, whose comments I found dead-on and insightful, and to Sean, who really made sure to recognize both the good and the bad. But the Top 4 aren't the judges. They chime in later, and more importantly - they're not the gatekeepers. And Round 1 is so very, very much about the gatekeepers.
That's an interesting perspective, Standback. I think one of the reasons you got the good and the bad from the guest judges is that they had more time. I know that probably sounds weird. But, quite frankly, the main judges (Sean, Clark, Ryan, and I) powered through a record number of entries in really quick fashion. It's really draining. I mean, if you've never gone through it (and only a handful of people have), it's hard for others to understand. By the time you're done with the sorting and then the winnowing and then then spending of the "golden tickets" and you finally hammer out the Top 32 in rushed frenzy to get into the hands of the guest judges and the tech team, it's really hard to come back and then recast your commentary on all those items all over again. So, most of us let our comments stand as they were...
So, let me kind of phrase it this way. When in the sorting phase, we don't have time to stop and document all the good and bad. If something's good enough to Keep, we cite it as such, wait for another judge to agree, and then we hit the Keep button and move on. If something's not, we indicate a vote to Reject, wait for another judge to agree, hit the Reject button and move on. We have to. If we didn't, we'd never make it through the crush of items and we'd all go insane over the holidays. And that's assuming our wives, girlfriends, and significant others didn't kill us first for neglecting them during a time when you're supposed to be spending time with friends and family. You know what I mean?
These past two years have seen a huge increase in submissions. Just as there's been a huge increase in the popularity of Pathfinder. And that's made the task of judging everything that much more difficult, I think. Thus, we've got our shorthand and our terse comments to make us as efficient as we can possibly be and keep everything on track. We don't really have time to tailor every comment with the good and bad.
That frenzied approach doesn't really slow down all that much. And, quite frankly, by the time it finally does, the last thing the judges want to do is go back and revise their commentary on 32 items (plus more when you include the alternates) to ensure there's equal amounts of good along with the bad. We do what we can to soften the harshest criticisms and eliminate posts that don't really add much to the ultimate decision to Keep something for the Top 32. But we don't give detailed critiques on the good and bad for those who make it through, because, again, we're quite limited in what we can honestly accomplish during that entire timeframe.
Unfortunately, to the outside viewer, it seems like we're callous. Or that we're incredibly harsh in our reviews. Others (like Andrew) perceive that we were just as harsh on the Top 32 as many of the items in the Reject folder and conclude there really wasn't much difference between the two after all. Nothing could be further from the truth. Here's why...
I made a special effort to go through every item and post more commentary than we usually do. Clark and the others even expressed amazement that I made it through every...single...item. You don't know how difficult it is to actually do that. But you want to know why I do it? It's because, as a former competitor, I know how much people live and die for feedback...any feedback...even the harshest feedback...because they want to know why they missed the cut. They just want to know. So, I wanted to make sure there was something in every entry. I did better on some that most. It just depended on my energy level on any given night while I was reviewing items...and what a particular item inspired me to provide as feedback. But I got through all of them.
Now, I'm a pretty critical guy. Always have been. And, when judging items (especially during the initial sorting), we're pretty much looking for a reason to stop reading. That means we're citing the errors and missteps far more than the things someone did well. And, with me putting those kinds of comments in everyone's submission this year, it colors all the items from the Reject folder that way. A lot of the type of comments and shorthand I used also showed up in my commentary when citing something negative in an entry that still made the Keep folder...or even the Top 32. That's why the comments look very similar. It's because I put more of that kind of commentary into the Reject items in an attempt to give people more. In the past, you might not have even seen that much commentary at all. It might have just been "Reject"..."Reject"..."Rejected"...with nothing else. This go-around, I made sure everyone had more than that. And that's what's giving you the impression that they have very similar comments as compared to the negatives for the Top 32. Then, when you factor in the judges' inability to go back and spend a lot more time to recast our initial comments on those Top 32 items, I believe those two factors combined together is what's leading Andrew to draw the conclusion he has.
I'm not saying the conclusion is right or wrong. I'm just saying that's how and why we got to where we are. If I had more time and wasn't so drained from the initial sorting/winnowing/assigning of all the items, I can assure you I'd probably go back and try to be a bit more upbeat for everyone in the Top 32 items. But, personally, I needed a break. I viewed the existing commentary as sufficient and necessary for the Top 32 competitors...as well as those following along at home...because at that point, it's all meant as constructive criticism anyway. And, I figured we could take time to focus equally on the good and bad in the future rounds' assignments.
So, to bring this thing back around full circle, I get what you and Andrew are describing. I completely understand why you're perceiving things the way you are. I just don't think you guys ever had the complete picture to understand how and why things shake out the way they do. And, it's difficult to take the extra time out to explain all those things that happen behind the scenes. Does that justify comments being weighted more heavily towards criticism than praise? I don't know. I think the savviest of the Top 32 competitors recognize the value of the Keep vote and the constructive criticism. I agree that the average person sitting at home might not feel the same, just based on their gut level reaction to what they're reading. But, at least by having this kind of dialogue about it, maybe that'll help people view things from a different perspective. And, with the judges (and Paizo) knowing how it comes across to you guys, maybe we'll make some kind of adjustments to give a bit more good with the bad in our commentary...even if just on a subconscious level. But I don't know. I can't promise anything on that. We're all still slaves to the task and doing the best we can with it.
I hope you understand.
--Neil
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Dedicated Voter Season 6
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I think the savviest of the Top 32 competitors recognize the value of the Keep vote and the constructive criticism. I agree that the average person sitting at home might not feel the same, just based on their gut level reaction to what they're reading. But, at least by having this kind of dialogue about it, maybe that'll help people view things from a different perspective. And, with the judges (and Paizo) knowing how it comes across to you guys, maybe we'll make some kind of adjustments to give a bit more good with the bad in our commentary...even if just on a subconscious level. But I don't know. I can't promise anything on that. We're all still slaves to the task and doing the best we can with it.
To be honest, if I had made the top 32, I would have been just fine with the commentary received. As you say, it is completely a difference in perspective.
As I said to Clark. Logically, I understand this. But on the spot, emotionally, not so much. I'm a gut-reader I suppose you could say. I read with the passion in which I speak, write, and live. So I have to actively make myself take a step back and try to see the larger picture.
I'm going to guess, based on the life this thread took, that I'm not the only one affect in such a way.
All that being said Neil, you guys are my heroes. Well, at least desk-jockey, nerdy writing, volunteer heroes. I mean its not like you save lives by judging for RPGSS, but yeah... you are my heroes.
So I really do appreciate, that while on initial blush I think I hit a nerve with this thread, that you all actually truly listened to my intent, understood what I was saying, and will evaluate how things proceed in the future.
Even if things don't change one iota, I accomplished my goal. So for that, thanks.
Well, in order to combat this bad impression, I guess I'll go back and edit all my comments so they also include something positive.
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Dedicated Voter Season 6
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Well, in order to combat this bad impression, I guess I'll go back and edit all my comments so they also include something positive.
To be honest Sean, cat's already out of the bag. If, and I say if with the understanding that you don't really, have time, that would be appreciated. But at this point in the competition this year, I'd rather you spent your time on commenting on the 32 organizations.
But if you do this, I would really appreciate it, and it will be extremely helpful for us voters and observers.
"I agree that the average person sitting at home might not feel the same, just based on their gut level reaction to what they're reading."
Average person - yeah that's me
Gut level reaction? - hmmmm
So I chose from the following ...
a) Dont enter again (Nope not choosing that)
b) Whinge and Cry Foul, eat Sour Grapes by the lorry load (tempting)
c) Let my sour grapes colour my view of the whole contest and the winning entrants (No way - That will be me - One day - assuming the grim reaper doesnt call first)
There could be an element of this, so as I had a particular rough time in my feedback, I kept things clinical in my reviews and always tried to say something good - they made Top 32 after all.
d) Be honest in one self and recognise, these guys are in the business for a reason. (Check - Consider myself sobered up)
e) If the feedback is especially bad, man up and apologise for crud non thinking pile of donkey doo that you submitted. (Done that, cant remember which thread, but I did).
f) Do something about it - put cushion layers on chair for your sore butt (Done), Start praticing (Doing), Get Better at it (hoping)
And Sean
"Well, in order to combat this bad impression, I guess I'll go back and edit all my comments so they also include something positive."
To be honest fella, your honesty was the big kick in the pants I needed, so thanks. It still smarts, but thanks.
If you, or any of the judges get the time, pop in on my pratice thread, my first practice item final cut is now done. It might cheer you up (hopefully) that I'm taking things well serious now.
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For another perspective...It doesn't get much more humbling than to have made Top 32, progressed to Top 16 (while being justifiably raked over the coals by at least three judges not recommending my progression each of the following rounds), completed and refined the best wondrous item idea I had this year out of about half a dozen while working 3 different freelance assignments of various kinds, and get the "Reject, Reject, Rejected" for S/MIAC and SAK that I should've been able to make better given my past experience.
My choice was to chuckle at myself sardonically and decide that I would take what I learned from last year's success and this year's epic fail to make something fantastic for next year. I don't view the Top 32 as the "best of sub-par entries."
I understand different strokes for different folks, and sometimes perception is everything. For me, Sean, Neil, Clark, et al....
Please, do not change your critiques. Yeah, sometimes I had to take a step away from the computer, rant and rave, whine and snivel. I'm where I'm at because of everyone's input last year, community and judges. I wouldn't change that for the world. I got to where I was last year because I read all the other critiques and the auto-reject threads and learned from them. That's the lesson all of us can take from this. We should be able to see what worked. Sometimes, it's more difficult to see where a design went wrong. The critiques offered shed light on that, and I'd rather that didn't change.
My opinion, take it for what it's worth.
Contributor
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Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9
aka Boxhead
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I know how it feels to get rejected, I've entered all 5 years and managed to slip this year. I got much the same advice as people in this thread:
Eric Hindley wrote:
Gauntlets of the Stampeding Herd*Is this really necessary? This item comes off like a power-gamer's dream so they can keep elevating their damage curve and skirt any penalties associated with the normal rules for doing so.
*Vote to Reject.
*How about you just use weapons and natural attacks of your own size. Thanks.
*Reject.
*Rejected.
You know what? I was pretty sure it wasn't a great idea. I thought it had some mojo, and that I could prop the item with decent writing (something I know I have). It just isn't catch them, you cant win them all. I'm thrilled the judges (and Paizo!) do this at all. It does feel like a real chance to break into the business.
Now if you'll excuse me, I've got an article for Wayfinder and a query for Kobold Quarterly to write...
Well, in order to combat this bad impression, I guess I'll go back and edit all my comments so they also include something positive.
As Andrew said, I don't think that's necessary. I think this is much more a point to consider in the future than "please fix this" for this go-round.
But hey, you know what? Since you're already providing in-depth feedback for the rest of the Keep pile, you might throw in a couple lines of "this is why we liked this" as you write those. That'd be really helpful.
So, to bring this thing back around full circle, I get what you and Andrew are describing. I completely understand why you're perceiving things the way you are. I just don't think you guys ever had the complete picture to understand how and why things shake out the way they do. And, it's difficult to take the extra time out to explain all those things that happen behind the scenes. Does that justify comments being weighted more heavily towards criticism than praise? I don't know. I think the savviest of the Top 32 competitors recognize the value of the Keep vote and the constructive criticism. I agree that the average person sitting at home might not feel the same, just based on their gut level reaction to what they're reading. But, at least by having this kind of dialogue about it, maybe that'll help people view things from a different perspective. And, with the judges (and Paizo) knowing how it comes across to you guys, maybe we'll make some kind of adjustments to give a bit more good with the bad in our commentary...even if just on a subconscious level. But I don't know. I can't promise anything on that. We're all still slaves to the task and doing the best we can with it.
I hope you understand.
Absolutely. I completely understand what you're saying; I know how difficult it is to provide a "positive" critique, and I understand how that difficulty is compounded at the end of multiple rounds of winnowing and the particular format of the contest.
I'm very glad you found my point clear, and I'm glad Andrew brought this issue up to begin with, because I think this has been some good meta-feedback. Now that the meta-feedback's out there, you guys can do whatever you want with it :) It's definitely understandable if you come to the conclusion that this isn't something you'll want to devote much energy to in the futre - you've got no lack of other urgent energy sinks...
I'll also note that, unless I'm much mistaken, this won't be a problem in future rounds (and wouldn't have been even regardless of this thread). Because (a) no winnowing discussion, so you'll naturally have an easier time combining both review and critique, and (b) slamming contestants in later rounds is much less disappointing to the fans :P
Thanks again,
--Ziv
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Champion Voter Season 6, Champion Voter Season 7, Champion Voter Season 8, Champion Voter Season 9
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To be honest, I wanted Sean to rip me up in more detail, and not with a single surgical slice.
I agree, he was too nice. I was most worried about my item's price. Not sure how accurate my stab in the dark was.
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Dedicated Voter Season 6
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I've never read much RPG Superstar feedback in the past so I really don't have anything to compare it to…
...and in the spirit of thick skin...I don't find Mr. Danceys criticisms to be "superstar judge" level.
If you had read last years, Ryan’s first year as an RPGSS judge, you’ll note in the 1st round a similar style. I don’t blame him for this, since they are looking at maybe 1500 entries to pare down to 32.
If you had read last years round 2 and higher, you’d note his comments were, while still very concise, very poignant.
I don’t think you get to make that type of criticism unless you’ve actually paid attention for more than 5 minutes.
The sour grapes thing Clark mentioned had to do with the fact since you are commenting, he’s assuming you submitted an item that got trashed (or simply didn’t make the cut).
Either way, it isn’t good form to make a comment that could easily be interpreted as an insult towards a judge. Your “harsh criticism” came across as though you were implying he had no credibility or business being a judge.
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One question for Neil (I'll spoiler it since it is a tangent)...
My Tangential Response:
Question:
Why don't you write RPG material full time? Based on what I've read of your published work, your comments, and your RPG Superstar feedback it seems to me you are certainly qualified to do so. I assume you don't do it full time by choice, not due to lack of an opportunity, correct? I would guess the financial challenge is probably what's holding you back. If so, unfortunate but understandable.
I've considered it before. Back when Paizo had some openings, I allowed myself to daydream about it. I even expressed some interest and made a few discreet inquiries to look into it as a possibility. But then, reality set in. There's basically a lot of compounding reasons why I consciously choose not to pursue a full-time career in the RPG industry. First and foremost, no one's offered me one...hah! ;-D
But neither have I aggressively sought one out. So, I actually don't know how viable it would be. Then, I also have a growing family. A wife and three small children (ages 7, 6, and 2). We're in a period where their growth and development takes a higher priority...i.e., their formative years. And their development needs to take a higher priority if I'm going to be a good parent. I also can't just leave that burden on my wife while I sequester myself away to work on one RPG assignment after another. I face that challenge even now, just as a freelancer. And I'm certain it would become an even larger challenge if I made a full-time career of it.
But what's that you say? All that work would be done at the office and I wouldn't have to do it at home in my off-hours anymore, so that'd free me up to spend more time with the family, right? Well, not exactly, no. And I guess that brings me to another reason I'm compelled (or incented really) to set aside any notions of a full-time career in the RPG industry.
There's a money factor to it. Many full-time developers and writers in the RPG industry still struggle to make ends meet. Their success hinges on the publishing schedule and each product launch for their employer. So, when deadlines hit or they're in risk of being missed, they wind up working far more overtime than most, just to make sure the company stays afloat or stays successful. From observation, I think Paizo's staff faces that challenge a lot more often than they'd like. And, from my tremendously non-scientific research, a full-time salary in the RPG industry is generally lower (comparatively-speaking) to some other professions. So, at the same time full-time developers are overworking themselves at their regular job for somewhat less pay, they're often still compelled to take freelance assignments on the side just to make ends meet. It happens more often than you might think. But it also depends just as much on how well a particular RPG company has secured its success...and their capability to maintain it.
So, when I compare that kind of environment to my current day-job, I pretty much know a full-time RPG career probably isn't for me. I don't talk all that often about what I do in real-life. But I'm essentially a contract negotiator for the IT department of a mid-sized corporation in the southeast US. It's a very good job, particularly for our area of the country. And I've worked at the same company for over 20 years now while working my way up the ladder. I have seniority over a lot of my co-workers. And, my company has a really good medical benefits package. I'm fully vested in my 401K and they provide a fully insured pension plan. My annual salary is...well, I'll just say it's over six figures. As a result, my family is very comfortable, settled, and secure where we are...especially at this point in our lives.
Lining up all those things, a cross-country move to a place like Seattle (the gaming capital of the world) starts to look less attractive. I'd basically have to uproot everything here. Move very far away from the extended families of both me and my wife. I'd likely take a reduction in income. I'd probably take on longer work hours at the office to keep an RPG company like Paizo or Wizards on schedule. And, I'd probably still wind up taking freelance assignments on the side to augment our income. For what? So I can selfishly live my dream of working in the RPG industry? What about the dreams (and needs, honestly) of my wife and children? They should always take priority. And they all have a future here. One which I've planned out with the same long-range vision and meticulous nature as any effort I put forth here on the Paizo messageboards or any freelance assignment I've ever been given.
You see, I'm at a point in my life where other things have a greater importance (and rightly so!) than my hobby...even if I wanted to turn it into my career. And I think that's probably the wisest thing for not just me, but those who are dependent on me, and those who I care about more than I care about myself.
Now, all that said, I still get the best of both worlds. Paizo (and a handful of other 3PP publishers) keep me plenty busy as a freelancer. I have to say no just as often as I say yes to something. And that gives me a lot more liberty to pick and choose my projects. It also helps me avoid burn out...a problem which I fully expect those working full-time in the RPG industry face everyday. And, as a freelancer, I still get to taste all the same rewards in writing for the RPG industry. I get to involve myself in gaming products that see use at any number of gaming tables. My name is on the cover of books you can buy off the shelf at the local store. I get to volunteer and work alongside actual employees of RPG companies at conventions...to serve as an extension of them in such situations to represent their best interests. And, I have a platform from which to talk and write about virtually any topic concerning the RPG hobby I care to address. I have a name and a voice people can recognize (whether they enjoy it or not)...
So, even as a freelancer, I consider myself to be both a resource and a colleague to those I know in the field. And I have fun. It's not really a job. It's still more of a hobby. Granted, however, I still have to treat every freelance assignment I receive just like a real a job, because each one certainly is a job. But that work comes at a different pace of my choosing. And, in the meantime, I have the security of my regular day-job as a foundation for the future to chart the financial security of my family and my children. So far, everything's worked out pretty well in that regard. I'm just not sure it would be the same if I hit the reset button and jumped headlong into an actual full-time career in the RPG industry. I'm certain I'd enjoy it if I did. I'm just not certain it would meet all the goals I have in other areas of my life where it concerns my family and my children. I know they don't have to be mutually exclusive. But it's probably a much larger challenge (and therefore, a greater risk) to pursue it.
So, yeah...wow. That's a whole melancholy wall-of-text to ponder there. Sorry about that. Your question doesn't come with an easy answer, because there's so many factors to consider. And, believe me, I've considered them. And I still do sometimes.
My two cents,
--Neil
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Star Voter Season 6
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Tangent to Neil's Tangent.
Heck, if you look at writers in more widely read mediums, they'll tell you that when they started writing was a 'secondline' job, and was for a long time. (David Drake related that his sci-fi was only possible because he was a lawyer).
Same thing for any entertainer (and lets face it, RPGs are entertainment). There's a little snippet in Liz Sladden's bio (which my copy has gone wandering) where she comments on one point in her life where Sadie was the only one working. Now neither of the Millers were 'unknown' in the UK, but because acting was their primary (only) career, they did suffer the same ups and downs.
I'll applaud Neil for making the 'father' choice instead of the 'fun' choice.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Star Voter Season 6
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Either way, it isn’t good form to make a comment that could easily be interpreted as an insult towards a judge. Your “harsh criticism” came across as though you were implying he had no credibility or business being a judge.
Heh, it's not good form to insult anyone*. And I say this as a, um, blunt person who doesn't care what people on the intertubes think of me.
*
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The sour grapes thing Clark mentioned had to do with the fact since you are commenting, he’s assuming you submitted an item that got trashed (or simply didn’t make the cut).
That seems to be the default assumption -- if anyone's paying attention, it's because they entered -- but it's really not a safe assumption to make. I've been a spectator all five years, but I neither have time to compete nor am I at all interested in working in the RPG industry. I still feel I have the right to an opinion in the process, though, since (points to Modules Subscriber tag) I'm going to end up paying for the end result.
It does feel "unsafe" to say anything less than glowing about the judging or the Top 32, because it is automatically assumed that one is speaking out of envy or hurt pride.
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Dedicated Voter Season 6
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It does feel "unsafe" to say anything less than glowing about the judging or the Top 32, because it is automatically assumed that one is speaking out of envy or hurt pride.
I feel your response was as fair one.
However, I didn't speak glowingly about the judging this year by starting this entire thread. And the judges actually were quite civil and discussed the issue in a quite adult-like manner.
I think it just is a matter of how you present your argument.
Saying, "he isn't fit to be an RPGSS Judge" is not really the best way to get your point across.
One question for Neil (I'll spoiler it since it is a tangent)...My Tangential Response:
Tangent to Neil's Tangent.
Since I'm not smart enough to know what a tangent to a tangented tangent would be...
This does NOT absolve him from writing more, of course. It merely allows him to be judicious when accepting freelance assignments upon which I must spend more money. ;-)
That seems to be the default assumption -- if anyone's paying attention, it's because they entered -- but it's really not a safe assumption to make.
You're right, I did presume that. My bad.
Oh come on now, Clark. Sure I do. I just gave my impression of what I did see compared to what I saw from everyone else. No big deal, it's an opinion that I'm certainly entitled to express in a public forum. You are certainly entitled to disagree with it and express your own.
Of course you can express your opinion. The fact that the internet permits everyone to have an opinion, however, doesn't mean all opinions are equally valuable.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Champion Voter Season 6, Champion Voter Season 7, Champion Voter Season 8, Champion Voter Season 9
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Oh come on now, Clark. Sure I do. I just gave my impression of what I did see compared to what I saw from everyone else. No big deal, it's an opinion that I'm certainly entitled to express in a public forum. You are certainly entitled to disagree with it and express your own.Of course you can express your opinion. The fact that the internet permits everyone to have an opinion, however, doesn't mean all opinions are equally valuable.
Opinions are like (Ex) abilities, everyone has one one. Unless you are a NPC or Sorcerer with the Destined bloodline...
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Sorry Clark, didn't mean to hit a nerve. I certainly wasn't suggesting that you post disingenuous commentary.
Logically, yeah, I know that if its a top 32 item, you guys had to like something about it, else it wouldn't be there. You guys have a lot of credibility in my book.
I just would like to see why you liked it, as well as what you think needs work. Knowing why you liked a top 32 item will help me tremendously when I go to vote.
Andrew, I appreciate this thread and I've been thinking a lot about it. I think I may have come up with something that helps create this "perception gap" that appears to be part of the problem you are commenting on.
I think there are people, perhaps including you, who want the top 32 to somehow be this awesome "best of the best." That isnt what RPG Superstar is. RPG Superstar is not a contest of the best of the best. Industry insiders, published freelancers, even the best of the non-winners of prior years don't get to enter. RPG Superstar is the "best of the unknowns," and that means the quality is not "best of the best." We hope to winnow it down to that as the contest goes along. So if you are expecting gushing about all 32 items like it is an all-star game, it just isnt. The top 32 are about half really good items and about half people who show promise.
So think about it this way--the top 32 arent an all star team, they are more akin to the 64 teams that get selected for the NCAA basketball tournament. Some get in by the skin of their teeth and we all know they will likely make a first round exit. But they still deserve a shot. And sometimes the guy who sneaks in surprises you and makes a run. But, like the NCAA tourney, we will narrow it down to 8 or so really awesome contestants by the later rounds.
So while I agree with you that our comments were perhaps more negative in tone than in prior years, and that is half the problem, the other half of the problem may come from a misperception that the top 32 represents some pinnacle or "best of the best" when it doesnt--it is the "best of the submitted," from which we hope to find 8 or 10 really awesome potential freelancers, and from which we hope to find 4 super awesome freelancers, and from which we will find one winner.
Since I'm not smart enough to know what a tangent to a tangented tangent would be...
Isn't it a cosine?
Cotangent...Isn't it a cosine?
Since I'm not smart enough to know what a tangent to a tangented tangent would be...
Wouldn't a cotangent be the tangent of the tangent though? <confused>
Where's my HS math teacher when I need them?
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2012
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Star Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 9
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Cotangent...Isn't it a cosine?
Since I'm not smart enough to know what a tangent to a tangented tangent would be...
Wouldn't a cotangent be the tangent of the tangent though? <confused>
Where's my HS math teacher when I need them?
Oops, missed the third tangent. So, a tangent to a tangented tangent is a tangent.
I want to say two things about this thread.
1) After starting a review of all the Top 32 items, I have even more respect for the judges. I've only done 11 so far and it's taken me ages.
2) Some very good points have been made by various people on this thread. It's an excellent debate, lucidly argued. Andrew has made a valid point about the level of positive feedback and the judges have given some excellent explanations of their judging process. It's the kind of on-line discussion that is a credit to this amazing community.
Cotangent...Isn't it a cosine?
Since I'm not smart enough to know what a tangent to a tangented tangent would be...
Wouldn't a cotangent be the tangent of the tangent though? <confused>
Where's my HS math teacher when I need them?
Oops, missed the third tangent. So, a tangent to a tangented tangent is a tangent.
Does that make it an equilateral triangle?
(Disclaimer: I am an English graduate and therefore my approach to Maths is to say random words about triangles.)
As a first time contestant, here is my perspective:
Please don't burn out the judges in this great contest, I would much rather see them put their energy into providing item feedback than into addressing complaints. I've learned tons from reading the critiques of every item, there is so much good information available, spend your energy learning from this wealth of information. Learning how to improve should be the goal of every would-be-designer.
Clark, Sean, Neil and Ryan, please recognize that most of us really appreciate every minute you spend helping us become better designers. I think I've learned the most from the critiques of the items that did make it, because they were good enough to make the top 32, but still could have been better. Best contest ever, keep it up!