Hi all,
Been tinkering with some high level character concepts, and I was having a very hard time trying to find a compelling reason to build an 18th level Cleric instead of an 18th level Witch.
What I'm looking for is skill in buff/debuff and good healing capabilities. I was comparing the cleric to a Witch built with the Hedge Witch template, so I can channel spells into Cure spells (and packing the cure hexes and the Resurrection Grand Hex at 18th - and yes, I know that those aren't necessarily the best hexes to take). The patron used would be Endurance - to provide access to the Miracle spell (and via that, many other spells clerical, wizard, etc).
Between the more interesting and flexible spells of the Witch (some very useful Wizard spells), the addition of some fun hexing capabilities (split hex and accursed hex feats to help boost those), I can't help but think a Witch optimized for healing is going to be a lot more fun than a cleric. They can do almost everything a cleric can, and a lot a cleric can't. The cleric will obviously be better against undead, but how much better?
About the only thing I think I will miss from the Clerical spell list is the True Resurrection spell I can't access. Pretty much anything else is available (via Miracle in a pinch).
So, fellow Paizo pundits - I think I'm smitten with the witch class as a replacement for the cleric (and as a player, I've played the main cleric in the party for decades - so, I've always been a cleric fan).
Are there any really great 18 levels of cleric (no multiclassing dips, I'm thinking a PURE cleric build) out there? Cool feat combos that allow the cleric to really shine? What fun things are being done with clerics these days? Can anyone make an argument for me to make clerics look as good as the witch class?
For what you specifically want? Only the mechanical (armor, hp, two good saves, channel energy and the spontaneous cure spells plus two domains).
Strong domain choices include: Loss, Slavery, Curse, and Decay.
But it sounds to me like you really want to play a witch so just go for it.
The difference between your 18th level cleric and your 18th level witch is that the 18th level cleric can do all your healing while wearing medium armor, carrying a shield, and, when not casting spells, hitting foes in combat 3 times a round rather than 2. The 18th level cleric also has better Fortitude saves. (and ninjaed by Abraham)
The advantage the witch has over the cleric is better spell versatility and some interesting options via hex. The witch can probably hurt things in combat with magic better than a cleric because of the arcane spells. A lot of high level cleric spells are cool but very circumstantial--and/or buffs geared toward the expectation that you will be wading into melee.
So, if what you want to be is a pure spellcaster, standing back and casting only, go with the witch.
If you want to provide some melee support as well, buff yourself, and have better AC and combat abilities, go with the cleric.
ETA: A more minor note: a witch is also likely to have more skill points. While they are both 2+Int Skill Ranks per level classes, the witch has Int has their caster stat, meaning they are more likely to have more skill points than your typical cleric. So if skills are important to you--I might also look at what they each have as skills--that's another thing to consider.
Hi all,
Been tinkering with some high level character concepts, and I was having a very hard time trying to find a compelling reason to build an 18th level Cleric instead of an 18th level Witch.What I'm looking for is skill in buff/debuff and good healing capabilities. I was comparing the cleric to a Witch built with the Hedge Witch template, so I can channel spells into Cure spells (and packing the cure hexes and the Resurrection Grand Hex at 18th - and yes, I know that those aren't necessarily the best hexes to take). The patron used would be Endurance - to provide access to the Miracle spell (and via that, many other spells clerical, wizard, etc).
Between the more interesting and flexible spells of the Witch (some very useful Wizard spells), the addition of some fun hexing capabilities (split hex and accursed hex feats to help boost those), I can't help but think a Witch optimized for healing is going to be a lot more fun than a cleric. They can do almost everything a cleric can, and a lot a cleric can't. The cleric will obviously be better against undead, but how much better?
About the only thing I think I will miss from the Clerical spell list is the True Resurrection spell I can't access. Pretty much anything else is available (via Miracle in a pinch).
So, fellow Paizo pundits - I think I'm smitten with the witch class as a replacement for the cleric (and as a player, I've played the main cleric in the party for decades - so, I've always been a cleric fan).
Are there any really great 18 levels of cleric (no multiclassing dips, I'm thinking a PURE cleric build) out there? Cool feat combos that allow the cleric to really shine? What fun things are being done with clerics these days? Can anyone make an argument for me to make clerics look as good as the witch class?
One thing to keep in mind if your using a Witch as the party's primary healer is that Witches are squishier than Clerics. This could create a problem if your planning on healing during combat. To heal the Melee guys you have to risk putting yourself or worse your familiar/spellbook in harm's way.
One thing to keep in mind if your using a Witch as the party's primary healer is that Witches are squishier than Clerics. This could create a problem if your planning on...
I was thinking that with some actual memorized curing/heal spells I would apply the Reach Spell feat so that in situations where things might get squishy, I could heal at range. The tank-like aspects of the cleric, and backup melee aspects are good points, but I've often found that past clerics of mine are heal-bots - because it's more efficient to keep our optimized power hitters in the game with healing, than trying to out power hit them myself. I've had some excellent melee-capable or missile fire capable clerics in my day, but they almost always pitched in with spells supporting the rest of the party before getting in hits of my own. Except in Rappan-Athuk - when I had lots of fun with the Heal spell vs some undead.
At higher levels, I think a Ring of Invis would be an excellent investment for a high level witch - allowing for a bit more safety when getting close to melee for curing.
Anyone have some really good channeling feats/combos that they like for the cleric?
One thing to keep in mind if your using a Witch as the party's primary healer is that Witches are squishier than Clerics. This could create a problem if your planning on...I was thinking that with some actual memorized curing/heal spells I would apply the Reach Spell feat so that in situations where things might get squishy, I could heal at range. The tank-like aspects of the cleric, and backup melee aspects are good points, but I've often found that past clerics of mine are heal-bots - because it's more efficient to keep our optimized power hitters in the game with healing, than trying to out power hit them myself. I've had some excellent melee-capable or missile fire capable clerics in my day, but they almost always pitched in with spells supporting the rest of the party before getting in hits of my own. Except in Rappan-Athuk - when I had lots of fun with the Heal spell vs some undead.
At higher levels, I think a Ring of Invis would be an excellent investment for a high level witch - allowing for a bit more safety when getting close to melee for curing.
Anyone have some really good channeling feats/combos that they like for the cleric?
If I remember correctly I believe witches also get a spell that works like Sanctuary so you could probably use that in the mean time. Witches are definately more fun and versitile Clerics, you just have to be a little more careful.
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One thing to keep in mind if your using a Witch as the party's primary healer is that Witches are squishier than Clerics. This could create a problem if your planning on...I was thinking that with some actual memorized curing/heal spells I would apply the Reach Spell feat so that in situations where things might get squishy, I could heal at range. The tank-like aspects of the cleric, and backup melee aspects are good points, but I've often found that past clerics of mine are heal-bots - because it's more efficient to keep our optimized power hitters in the game with healing, than trying to out power hit them myself. I've had some excellent melee-capable or missile fire capable clerics in my day, but they almost always pitched in with spells supporting the rest of the party before getting in hits of my own. Except in Rappan-Athuk - when I had lots of fun with the Heal spell vs some undead.
At higher levels, I think a Ring of Invis would be an excellent investment for a high level witch - allowing for a bit more safety when getting close to melee for curing.
Anyone have some really good channeling feats/combos that they like for the cleric?
Reach spell is an unnecessary expenditure and a waste of a perfectly good feat (take extra hex=Prehensile Hair instead). This will allow you to deliver all your heals/touch spells at 10' range eventually moving up to Scar Hex allowing you to deliver all your buff/heal hexes at a 1 MILE range. Add to that since you will spend most of your combat time flying 10-15+ feet overhead the chance for you to actually be hit in combat is surprisingly low.
With a little planning you can comfortably stay 20-25 feet above the battle field casting buffs/heals/debuffs and trip/disarm attacks on everyone in combat without ever putting you or your familiar at risk.
The biggest difference between a healing cleric optimized for battle and a battle witch optimized for healing is the witch can do it faster and cheaper.
With the inclusion of three hexes (Prehensile Hair, Flight, Scar) over 10 levels, a Witch can easily stay out of range of most attacks but fully able to contribute to the battle with targeted healing freely without provoking, while BAD-TOUCHING every opponent in sight.