Problem is most of the things that you might roll these for are either so minute or rare that it doesn't matter anyway, or is already covered by an existing - more useful - skill. For example...
So Profession sailor lets you make rolls on sailing a boat.
This is the iconic example for the profession skill being used in this way. Sailing has been heralded as an example of an adventure-useful profession, but there are also no set DCs, so really it's a matter of setting the DCs based on the 5 (easy), 10 (fair), 15 (hard), 20 (very hard), 25 (near impossible), and 30 (impossible) markers; and most sailing DCs are probably only going to be about DC 5-15, with only stuff like successfully navigating a giant whirlpool in the middle of a hurricane while dodging tornadoes being somewhere about 30-40.
Most adventurers aren't going to buy their own ship unless they already are sailors, or will rely on a trusty NPC sailor, or will buy passage to somewhere. Only in very specific campaigns will you want more than a hired NPC to help you sail somewhere.
I have an adventure coming up that will take place across an ocean and involve more than one ship. The price of passage will be work on the ship as members of the crew. Those players had better get some ranks into sailing right quick or find themselves waiting for another boat.
Or what would happen if the party decided to go undercover as pirates in order to sneak into the pirate stronghold? They'd better hope they can impress the captain, or find themselves walking the plank.
Point I'm trying to make is that some scenarios might require unusual skill sets. It depends on the GM, the campaign and the players, but with the right makeup it can become more important than combat.
There's no wrong or right to this thread, just what all of us boneheads like or don't like. Now that I have contributed, I hope to see it disappear. I am sick of seeing this thing in the active messageboards thingy on the left there. Seriously, is it worth all this pain and debate?
Would Something like :
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"The Adventurer"
BAB: +1
Good Saves: Fort, Ref
Hit Dice: 1d10
Class Skills: Choose 25 skills to be class skills (craft, knowledge, perform and profession skills must be taken separately)
Skill Ranks per Level: 8 + Intelligence modifier.
"The Adventurer" choose 10 Armors type and/or Shield Type and/or Weapons Proficiencies.
2nd : Evasion (ex)
4th : uncanny Dodge (ex)
8th : Improved Uncanny Dodge (ex)
10th : Improved Evasion (ex)
...
P.S. Might add more later.
======
be liked by some players? (and GMs?)
I would much rather have an alignment system in the game that individual groups could house-rule away rather than not have one. Gimme a game with more detail and structure I can pare down myself rather than strip out stuff I want.
And thats my POINT. EVERY SINGLE SKILL REQUIRES THE GM TO MAKE S*!~ UP. Knowledge skills are defined for this, but every skill has areas which are intentionally left undefined so the GM has the leadway he needs. Just because the skills have no predefined uses doesn't mean that they don't have value. The most powerful thing about knowledge skills are the things that are not defined strictly by the rules, and professions are just variations on knowledge skills that have the added benefit of being able to make money.
Actually, it is always been that the GM decides when the players need to cross a river in my games. Its always the GM that decides there is an underground river in this cave. Or that the monster makes his lair on the bank of the river. Rarely, it is the players deciding they want to travel the easiest way and to do that is to follow the river, but then it is the GM who throws any hazards at them that would require them to swim, like archers on the other bank.Yes, by placing a river in the dungeon the players want to explore the GM is railroading them. /Sarcasm
Its the GMs job to make sure the players have goals, through the use of various plot hooks. Players follow their goals, and the GM gets to decide what they encounter on the way. Sometimes this leads to places the GM will not expect and "go off the tracks" - but then players are still following some goals and usually not just saying "screw all this, we don't give a damn about the plot"I agree with WPharolin. I don't have to make crap up about the Perception rules. It's very clear how they work. While I can make stuff up, it isn't required for me to do so. In fact, I can't recall the last time I had to make something up, but had the option to. I must make something up to make Profession skills somewhat useful outside of making some petty cash and/or answering questions about the profession.
Level 10 is indeed quite far above...
I don't play or run really high level games, but if a 20th level wizard, without using spells went to melee a large group of infantry (say level 2), wouldn't the most obvious thing be to just tackle him? What is his grapple like against a few, then nine while completely surrounded.
Ac can sure keep players alive, but what about the low ac builds. What about a barb rushing across a battlefield and into 100 arrows shot by yeomen? In my games, armies are to be respected, because they can't just be killed quickly (but their morale can be broken).
In my experience players have no problems mopping up mooks, it is the somewhat veteran troops that take them out. So high damage orc barbs at level 3, or a group of really good level 5 Chelaxian marines in large numbers (and veteran because they have been fighting pirates and monsters for years). You say 1-3, mm, some of the new books from paizo put vets around level 3 across cultures and races. I put captains higher than 3, old vets higher and heroic units around 7-8 in level.
Lance cav is not to be underestimated. Especially if a melee does not have reach and cops multiple charges at moderate levels, I have seen that really make a combat close. Something like 8s having trouble with more level 3s hitting them with lance charges. Dealing with skirmishers is easy if you have great ranged or speed, but if you don't...
In dealing with armies, large units, a group of heroes trying to defeat whole armies, there is tactics to consider, how veteran the enemies are, the fatigue of the pcs after engaging them for a while (how many hills can they run up to hack up units before they become fatigued?), spellcasters that run out of spells can find themselves considerably hounded if they didn't get the best effects from them.
The problem with the statement 'my 10th level fighter can take out a large army single handed' is that it ignores the way the system works.
Example :
10th level fighter, say 16 Con with bonuses. Max HP first level, average thereafter. 9*5.5 + 10 + 30 = 49.5 + 10 + 30 = 89.5, or 90 to make it a nice round number.
Let's say he has an uber AC, and it's 30 (another nice round number).
He attacks 500 1st level mooks. The mooks can only hit him on a 20. However, there's say 100 archer behind the 400 melee mooks.
The melee mooks surround him, and some pikemen get behind them. So each round, he has 16 attacks coming in for say 1d8+1 per hit. Plus 100 mooks shooting arrows at 1d6 (shortbows).
Now, he's got a 10 BAB, so he get's two attacks per round. Each mook has what, 8 HP? Let's give him a minimum damage of 12 pts. So ever round he kills 2 mooks.
With 100 archers, each needing a 20 to hit (doesn't matter what their bab is, or the penalties for firing into melee, they still need a 20). Each round 5 are going to hit, and 5 are going to critically fail. On average. So first round, he takes 5*3.5 = 17hp from archers. The mooks can get three hits in every four rounds. So, at the end of four rounds he's taken 17*4 (archers), plus 5.5*3 (mooks) = 68 + 17 = 95 hp of damage. That's over his hp. So he's going to have to start quaffing potions every other round. That provokes attacks of opportunity. More attacks. That's not even including crits, which are going to show up on a 20/20 (every 400 attacks, granted).
He'll have killed, in the first four rounds, 5 mooks. 1 on the initial charge, two on round two, none on round 3 (quaff potion), 2 on round four. It's a no win situation. Don't care what he's got for equipment.
Now, archery guy. He's got it better, he can ping the melee guys from range, until the run up to him. He can rapid shot and take out a dozen or so, but the archers are still going to be pinging him as well, and it's 100 to 1. He can kill 3-4 a round, but then he's got to avoid the melee guys. They're not even charging, they're just running up to him.
Ok, so we give him the ability to fly, and some sort of permanent invisibility. Lot of resources. Now he an theoretically kill the army. However, that assumes nobody in the army has those little glitter dust packets, which arent' expensive. Flying? A flying archer might be able to, until the army takes cover. That's about your only way to do it, permanent flight and archers. But if you're putting out 500 men in an army, you should if magic exists, have someone (a few someones) who can see invisible to pin point the guy.
This is where all these 'I can kill an army' brags break down. They assume the other side is staffed by morons. "Duh, we know magic exists, so let's ignore it!" No, if you can think of it, someone else can too, and they'll be waiting. They'll ahve hired some sharp wizard, and reduced their army by a 100 to pay for him, and he'll fireball your invisible butt into oblivion. Or worse, he'll make you visible to all those archers, who'll turn you into a pincushion.
Invisible flying mage with wands of fireball? Again, you got to get into range without being spotted by their wizard or sorcerer. Bang, Zoom, visible, pincushion.
Now, expand that out to a real army, as stated above, 10,000 men. Let's say 3000 of them are archers. Our invisible flying wizard swoops in, fires off one fireball with a wand or from his own spells. Get's say 30 mooks. Now the enemy wizard finds his invisible butt and makes him visible with purge or glitter dust or what have you. Now 2950 archers fire at him. let's say only 1 out of 20 hit again. that's over a thousand hits. Dead wizard. Protection from arrows you say? Sure, why not. 100 hp of protection. That should take off the first 20 or so arrows. The other 1000 still obliterate you.
It comes down to economy of action, as everyone chants with the summoner. You can be billy bad ass, but if you have a hundred people shooting at you with bows, you are in a world of hurt.
An entire group of level 10 people could probably seriously delay an army of 10,000. Not slaughter them outright, but cause them delays, destroy their supply lines, take out squads here and there, set deadly ambushes and run away. But they aren't killing 10,000 people all on their own. Not if the GM is running the army realistically, with people who send out armies knowing that magic exists in the world, and how to counter it.
/rant
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mdt, longbows do 4.5 damage on average ;p
Another thing that people forget about is Aid Another. Your awesome fighter will be grappled and is now doomed because he can't realistically fight back since he's on the ground (the CMB should be about +17 on round 1 and +22 on round 2). Now all they have to do is tie him up. Eight 1st level warrior can set the DC to escape at 20 +1 (BAB) +2 (14 Strength) +14 (7 Aid Another uses since at least one needs to hold him) = 37. What's the CMB of a 10th level fighter? Valeros (I know, not the best but he's a prebuilt 10th level character) has a +14. That means he cannot escape the ropes at all since if he rolls a 20, he still only has a 34 on his check. Sure, all of this will take 2 to 3 rounds, but so what? It's not like this uber-fighter is doing much since he's grappled and it is unlikely that he had a light weapon in hand. Oh, and if you don't escape the grapple the first round, the DC goes up by +5. It gets just a little bit harder.
A solo combatant shouldn't be able to take on an entire army. Even a level 20 fighter needs to watch his step trying to pull this stunt off. An army of 10k level 1 warriors will take him out using mdt's tactics.
mdt, longbows do 4.5 damage on average ;p
Yep, good thing I specified shortbows, which do 3.5 then, huh? :)
Another thing that people forget about is Aid Another.
LOL, you're right, I forgot about grapple. Guess I just don't see a bunch of guys in armor with pikes and swords grabbing him rather than trying to chop him up. :)
I don't play or run really high level games, but if a 20th level wizard, without using spells went to melee a large group of infantry (say level 2), wouldn't the most obvious thing be to just tackle him? What is his grapple like against a few, then nine while completely surrounded.
Ac can sure keep players alive, but what about the low ac builds. What about a barb rushing across a battlefield and into 100 arrows shot by yeomen? In my games, armies are to be respected, because they can't just be killed quickly (but their morale can be broken).
Not much luck there. Think about it. The wizard has at least a 20 combat maneuver defense from his BAB alone, or 30 if he took Defensive Combat Training like every wizard should. He then has a +5 deflection bonus from his Ring of Protection, and likely a +7 Dexterity modifier on top of that because he began with 13-14 Dexterity, wished for a +5 dexterity, and has a +6 Dexterity magic item, and probably a +4 strength modifier (assuming he hosed his Strength to a 7 at creation, +6 from item, +5 inherent = 18), giving him a CMD of about 36-46, meaning nobody is going to grapple him.
Likewise, that barbarian is going to laugh at all by 5% of those archers, and then then ignore 1/5th of the 5% of those archers due to his minor cloak of displacement allowing him to outright ignore 20% of would-be hits. Finally, those that do get through? Well they have to deal about 1d6 or 1d8 vs DR 5/-.
Let's run some numbers. 100 arrows. 95% of those miss due to the barbarian's AC. That leaves 5 arrows that get through. Then 1/5th of those arrows is ignored, leaving 4 arrows dealing an average of 3.5 or 4.5 damage each, versus DR 5/-. He literally cannot take more than 12 damage from those 4 arrows that get through his defenses, and that's assuming all four of them roll maximum damage, as they have a about a 75% chance to deal no damage at all, and can only deal 1-3 damage.
Now your 20th level Barbarian? Well he's got 12 + (19*6.5) + (ConMod * 20) hit points. His Con is probably a good 26 easily, assuming he started with a 15 Con, +5 inherent, +6 magic item, bringing him to a +8 Con modifier for +160 hp. His total HP is something like 295 hit points; which means that the archers call all shoot arrows at him for two strait minutes without the barbarian raging, healing, or even paying attention to them, without killing him. That's a volley of 100 arrows, every round, for 20 rounds, and he wouldn't die.
Heaven forbid he have to drink a potion and recover hit points, forcing the archers to have to start over again from scratch.
Another thing that people forget about is Aid Another. Your awesome fighter will be grappled and is now doomed because he can't realistically fight back since he's on the ground (the CMB should be about +17 on round 1 and +22 on round 2).
Not likely. You have to threaten to use Aid Another. Which means that best case scenario would be completely surrounding the Fighter (8 enemies), followed by 16 enemies with reach weapons (taking the -4 for attacking through soft cover). Now one guy has to attack him, which means he has +2 from flanking. The other 32 guys get to aid another. Assuming all of them make it, that's a to hit with a single attack of about +67 (assuming the soldiers have a +2 strength modifier).
The Fighter on the other hand has a minimum CMD of 30, +5 deflection, +10-12 strength, +7 Dexterity, for a combat maneuver defense of 54. This is also assuming the Fighter isn't fighting Defensively, or using Combat Expertise, a defending weapon, or anything of the sort. The enemy still has to roll at least a 13 vs the fighter to succeed in his attack roll. A 15 if the fighter is fighting defensively, and a 20+ if the fighter is using Combat Expertise. Meanwhile, the Fighter isn't hindered by them grappling him because he will just murder them, and they cannot disarm him because he has the good sense to make one of his gauntlets a locked gauntlet, so he has an additional +10 bonus vs being disarmed (oh wait, he actually can't be disarmed due to his special). Tripping him just means he has -4 to AC and Attacks, which still means he slaughters everyone; he just does it from the ground (you actually grant him a +4 AC vs ranged attacks). That's all assuming that the entire attack isn't negated by his minor cloak of displacement's 20% miss chance.
Also, on the Fighter's turn, he slaughters most of the guys who were surrounding him, because he has 4-10 attacks per round, and a 95% chance to hit with all of them, and his minimum damage is enough to kill on a hit.
20th level characters are like gods. Not demigods. Gods. Like, the armies of man vs the right hand of god kind of thing. Heaven forbid an army have to take on a party of 20th level characters. That'd be like Voltron. "Fighter- Form arms, Ranger- Form Legs, Cleric- Form Body, Wizard- And I'll form the head. Behold, Godliness."
Now all they have to do is tie him up. Eight 1st level warrior can set the DC to escape at 20 +1 (BAB) +2 (14 Strength) +14 (7 Aid Another uses since at least one needs to hold him) = 37. What's the CMB of a 10th level fighter? Valeros (I know, not the best but he's a prebuilt 10th level character) has a +14. That means he cannot escape the ropes at all since if he rolls a 20, he still only has a 34 on his check. Sure, all of this will take 2 to 3 rounds, but so what? It's not like this uber-fighter is doing much since he's grappled and it is unlikely that he had a light weapon in hand. Oh, and if you don't escape the grapple the first round, the DC goes up by +5. It gets just a little bit harder.
Now if you want to say a 10th level Fighter, then they have more of a chance. But I didn't really get into magic items either, beyond a few staples. When the Fighter pops a 1/day freedom of movement as a command word or thought, bam, no dice. Or maybe the fighter has something especially cute, like an armor of fire shield which basically kills anyone who dares touch him with its minimum damage; which is well within his WBL to possess, and is neither far fetched for a fighter to desire, nor overly specific.
Also, an uber fighter doesn't need to be holding a light weapon, and grappling is not an issue. 10th level Fighter? B*&%@slap enemies with his gauntlet for 1d4+6 points of damage. Since 1st level warriors generally have between 5-7 HP, his minimum damage drops soldiers. Or armor spikes. Or
A solo combatant shouldn't be able to take on an entire army. Even a level 20 fighter needs to watch his step trying to pull this stunt off. An army of 10k level 1 warriors will take him out using mdt's tactics.
It's not about the killing factor. It's about the sheer durability and resilience that such characters possess. A 10th level character using methods and resources they are expected to have can decimate entire battalions without breaking a sweat. God forbid they are spellcasters.
The problem with the statement 'my 10th level fighter can take out a large army single handed' is that it ignores the way the system works.
Example :
10th level fighter, say 16 Con with bonuses. Max HP first level, average thereafter. 9*5.5 + 10 + 30 = 49.5 + 10 + 30 = 89.5, or 90 to make it a nice round number.
Let's say he has an uber AC, and it's 30 (another nice round number).
He attacks 500 1st level mooks. The mooks can only hit him on a 20. However, there's say 100 archer behind the 400 melee mooks.
If he's 10th level, he should have a minor cloak of displacement. Again, only 4 arrows hit, just like with the barbarian example. Without the cloak, it's more like 5. Without adamantine armor, he probably lacks DR, so he takes about 18 damage (more like 4 if he has adamantine armor).
The melee mooks surround him, and some pikemen get behind them. So each round, he has 16 attacks coming in for say 1d8+1 per hit. Plus 100 mooks shooting arrows at 1d6 (shortbows).
About 5 of those mooks die when they enter his threatened space due to Combat Reflexes, so we're Fighter 5, mooks 0. Next statistically less than 0 attacks hit per round, counting the 5% chance to hit him due to rolling a 20. The archers had their turn. On the Fighter's turn, he drops a smokestick as a free action and then begins murdering dudes. He now has a 50% avoidance vs the archers, and has at least 2 attacks per round to kill people, but possibly more.
Now, he's got a 10 BAB, so he get's two attacks per round. Each mook has what, 8 HP? Let's give him a minimum damage of 12 pts. So ever round he kills 2 mooks.
With 100 archers, each needing a 20 to hit (doesn't matter what their bab is, or the penalties for firing into melee, they still need a 20). Each round 5 are going to hit, and 5 are going to critically fail. On average. So first round, he takes 5*3.5 = 17hp from archers. The mooks can get three hits in every four rounds. So, at the end of four rounds he's taken 17*4 (archers), plus 5.5*3 (mooks) = 68 + 17 = 95 hp of damage. That's over his hp. So he's going to have to start quaffing potions every other round. That provokes attacks of opportunity. More attacks. That's not even including crits, which are going to show up on a 20/20 (every 400 attacks, granted).
He'll have killed, in the first four rounds, 5 mooks. 1 on the initial charge, two on round two, none on round 3 (quaff potion), 2 on round four. It's a no win situation. Don't care what he's got for equipment.
Heheheh. You don't care what he's got for equipment? Hmm, strange, because that's where a lot of the meat & potatoes of a high level PC's power comes from; especially as a Fighter. His equipment should be primarily defensive (AC, saves, resists, miss %, etc) for general adventuring survival, along with some tricks tossed in.
Drop a feather token (tree) to gain total cover vs the archers, negating all incoming attacks and preventing enemies from getting to you from one side. Pop a bead of your necklace of fireballs and use it to slaughter everyone surrounding you while your flame-retardant armor soaks the damage, or use it to wipe out a ton of those archers. Use your elemental gem to summon a large earth or fire elemental to wreak havoc on your enemies with their 10ft reach, multiple attacks, huge damage, fast mobility, DR 5/-, and almost as many HP as you have, and almost as much HP as you have. That's before you seemingly vanish into thin air because you make use of your class feature that reduces the check penalty for your armor (further reduced by the armor's masterwork or better quality) and your lesser cloak of displacement to break away from combat by hiding, moving away, drinking your potions, and then charging back into the fray.
Now, archery guy. He's got it better, he can ping the melee guys from range, until the run up to him. He can rapid shot and take out a dozen or so, but the archers are still going to be pinging him as well, and it's 100 to 1. He can kill 3-4 a round, but then he's got to avoid the melee guys. They're not even charging, they're just running up to him.
If he's a 10th level dedicated archer, he will probably be using boots of levitation or have access to flight in some way, negating being mobbed in melee, so it's really just him vs the archers; which means he pulls out his arrow of fireball or a bead off his necklace and then begins blowing the archers to smithereens before turning his eye of god to the puny mortals. Likewise, he might have invested in a magic item that gives him protection from arrows, but I doubt he'd put much stock into that since magic weapon oils are pretty much standard gear for most.
Ok, so we give him the ability to fly, and some sort of permanent invisibility. Lot of resources. Now he an theoretically kill the army. However, that assumes nobody in the army has those little glitter dust packets, which arent' expensive. Flying? A flying archer might be able to, until the army takes cover.
Permanent flight isn't really needed. A couple of minor wondrous items, and possibly a defensive spell on an x/day cooldown or an x rounds/day will pretty much do it. A seeking bow basically means using concealment tricks doesn't work very well either, and taking anything except total cover means he will still hit you because it's just +4 AC (though going prone behind cover is +8 AC, so he might actually miss you, maybe, on his worst attacks). Once the army takes cover, then the archer, who still has a +10 BAB and a good strength bonus, can close in after he has forced them to retreat. Also, if they are all bunched up to take total cover, it's time to full out run, and then they have one round to try and get away before you drop another fireball on them via a necklace or other source.
That's about your only way to do it, permanent flight and archers. But if you're putting out 500 men in an army, you should if magic exists, have someone (a few someones) who can see invisible to pin point the guy.
Actually, you can do the brunt of it just with Handle Animal (fighter and barbarian class skill) and some oxen. Just train your oxen for war and let them use their trample ability to shatter rows of troops for 1d8+9 damage in a 10ft wide 60ft long AoE. You can order your oxen to attack as a move action, and at 15 gp each they're really quite expendable, but you can always make them harder to hit by throwing smokesticks in front of them.
This is where all these 'I can kill an army' brags break down. They assume the other side is staffed by morons. "Duh, we know magic exists, so let's ignore it!" No, if you can think of it, someone else can too, and they'll be waiting. They'll ahve hired some sharp wizard, and reduced their army by a 100 to pay for him, and he'll fireball your invisible butt into oblivion. Or worse, he'll make you visible to all those archers, who'll turn you into a pincushion.
I don't assume that every army has a 10th level wizard, just like I don't assume every army has god on their side. I'm a firm advocate that strong tactics and organized mundane soldiers, sometimes backed with some adepts and some wands, is a hellish force to be reckoned with. They can destroy stuff like Iron Golems, no problem. They can nuke the random upstart wizard. But I'm also not a moron when it comes to wielding demi-god like power in the hands of a 10th+ level character with correct WBL. Any of them who have so much as thought about fighting large hordes of mooks, or who has learned it through running gauntlets vs kobolds, will devastate the army if not destroy it.
Invisible flying mage with wands of fireball? Again, you got to get into range without being spotted by their wizard or sorcerer. Bang, Zoom, visible, pincushion.
Wizards are worse. Wind wall + spellcasting = a bad time for a mundane army. They don't even have to fly! A 10th level wizard is still near un-hittable by mooks (AC 10 + dex + deflect + natural + armor + shield + miss %), boosted by stoneskin which laughs at archers, garbed in fire shield to slaughter anyone who attacks him in melee, while he spawns celestial bison by the dozens to overrun his enemies, while his familiar drops fireballs every round via a wand, while also having similar protections as the wizard himself. By 20th level, a wizard's static defenses are so impressive that he could wade into combat without fear of suffering damage and could melee foes to death with his walking stick.
Now, expand that out to a real army, as stated above, 10,000 men. Let's say 3000 of them are archers. Our invisible flying wizard swoops in, fires off one fireball with a wand or from his own spells. Get's say 30 mooks. Now the enemy wizard finds his invisible butt and makes him visible with purge or glitter dust or what have you. Now 2950 archers fire at him. let's say only 1 out of 20 hit again. that's over a thousand hits. Dead wizard. Protection from arrows you say? Sure, why not. 100 hp of protection. That should take off the first 20 or so arrows. The other 1000 still obliterate you.
Firstly, they have to be able to actually hit him. Wind wall > Archers, displacement provides a free 50% DPR reduction and allows the wizard to make Stealth checks every time he moves like the predator, which see invisibility can do nothing about and he gets an effective +1 for every 10ft he is between his targets and himself, which is probably a good +40 or so. Screw protection from arrows because the archers will pierce it due to oils, so it's a waste of a slot. Finally, by 15th level, the wizard doesn't even have to be on the same plane of existence as the army to destroy them, and can do it via proxy-mage. Hell, this is assuming the mage is playing nice and isn't using stuff like simulacrum to make cheap clones of himself to bring destruction and ruin to the army by creating lots of little Cell-Jrs.
It comes down to economy of action, as everyone chants with the summoner. You can be billy bad ass, but if you have a hundred people shooting at you with bows, you are in a world of hurt.
Yeah...if you're not a high level character with expected WBL and lack the good sense to prepare against mob tactics. Anyone who has dealt with kobolds will just expand their counter strategies to own an army's face. Kobolds are scarier anyway.
An entire group of level 10 people could probably seriously delay an army of 10,000. Not slaughter them outright, but cause them delays, destroy their supply lines, take out squads here and there, set deadly ambushes and run away. But they aren't killing 10,000 people all on their own. Not if the GM is running the army realistically, with people who send out armies knowing that magic exists in the world, and how to counter it.
An entire group of 10th level characters would be murder against an army who doesn't have similarly leveled characters. If you count the wizard and cleric, that's a good 80 hit dice worth of undead minions they are bringing along with them, summoned monsters, wands, illusions, teleportations, dimension doors. The ranger just ninjas anyone who's a threat with his stupidly high Stealth check and the ability to use his cloak to hide, while the Fighter tanks stuff like a boss while raining arrow death - possibly arrows of detonation even. Toss in a druid and the entire freaking world turns against the opposing army, as the druid casts stuff like spike growth and stone spike over about huge areas, damaging people caught in it and preventing soldiers from moving without killing themselves!
Man, you're talking to the guy who told Ravingdork how to bring his 8th level party to their knees using CR 1/3 or CR 1/4 goblins and kobolds. I know how nasty NPCs using tactics are. I also know how to counter most of those tactics (otherwise my PCs would probably never make it out of any of my kobold dens alive).
I get the feeling most people around here haven't really been in a lot of high level games before, or really considered just how terrifying high level PCs are in terms of what they are capable of.
mdt, longbows do 4.5 damage on average ;pYep, good thing I specified shortbows, which do 3.5 then, huh? :)
Yeah, you did. I'm going to blame my dirty glasses on that perception penalty.
LOL, you're right, I forgot about grapple. Guess I just don't see a bunch of guys in armor with pikes and swords grabbing him rather than trying to chop him up. :)
Another thing that people forget about is Aid Another.
They could even use Aid Another to help hit him if they can get the bonus high enough. 7 additional warriors add +14 to a single attack. That could make a difference depending who is attacking. One of the elite warriors wading into combat could be a game changer with Aid Another.
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Ashiel has a big wall of text there, read through it. It mostly came down to 'I always have the right magic trinket, but the mooks never have anything'. No way to win that sort of argument, as she can just move the goalposts every time by pulling another magic item out of thin air that the guy magically had tucked away for just the right time. And the perfect feat for the exact scenario.
I've been playing for over 20 years. I've never had a character who had just the right item at just the right time more than once a game session, much less pulling out 3 or 4 in one fight. Plus also had exactly the right 5 feats to solve the problem every session.
I will comment on one thing that jumped out at me, I have no idea what rule is being used to let combat reflexes kill 5 mooks a turn. Apparently someone errated it to allow you attack anyone who entered a threatened square instead of left one? Since that's the way it was stated, auto five kills.
How about it Ashiel? Shall I stat out 10,000 man army with realistic information? Or do you want 10,000 level 1 guys with no support and who have morons for leaders who assume there's no magic in the world. That's pretty much what you argued above, every thing you gave was basically, I can use a magic item and the army has no magic.
So basically, if I give one guy a sherman tank, and everyone else a stick, and they're not allowed to know sherman tanks exist, I can kill 10,000 guys. I'll agree with that.
Otherwise, the 10,000 man army is not going to be without it's own magic, so no, you can't single kill it with one guy, or 4 guys, all level 10.
Ashiel has a big wall of text there, read through it. It mostly came down to 'I always have the right magic trinket, but the mooks never have anything'. No way to win that sort of argument, as she can just move the goalposts every time by pulling another magic item out of thin air that the guy magically had tucked away for just the right time. And the perfect feat for the exact scenario.
I've been playing for over 20 years. I've never had a character who had just the right item at just the right time more than once a game session, much less pulling out 3 or 4 in one fight. Plus also had exactly the right 5 feats to solve the problem every session.
I will comment on one thing that jumped out at me, I have no idea what rule is being used to let combat reflexes kill 5 mooks a turn. Apparently someone errated it to allow you attack anyone who entered a threatened square instead of left one? Since that's the way it was stated, auto five kills.
How about it Ashiel? Shall I stat out 10,000 man army with realistic information? Or do you want 10,000 level 1 guys with no support and who have morons for leaders who assume there's no magic in the world. That's pretty much what you argued above, every thing you gave was basically, I can use a magic item and the army has no magic.
So basically, if I give one guy a sherman tank, and everyone else a stick, and they're not allowed to know sherman tanks exist, I can kill 10,000 guys. I'll agree with that.
Otherwise, the 10,000 man army is not going to be without it's own magic, so no, you can't single kill it with one guy, or 4 guys, all level 10.
Look man. I never said have the right magic item. The only items I listed were either PC staples, or were cheap ass stuff off the minor wondrous item list. At no time did I say "Then you whip out your Daern's Instant Fortress" or something. Hell, I'm pretty sure I mentioned using smokesticks, an entirely mundane alchemical good to render most of the archers useless without resorting to wind wall or similar tactics. All the items I listed were either A) suitable for the character's build, or B) were general purpose items that are useful in a variety of typical adventuring situations, and were also cheap.
So don't give me this specific item bullcrap. You're not getting out of it that easily. You challenged this, so stand up and take it like a man. You wanna talk about sherman tanks? Well yeah, let's talk tanks.
Each 1st level NPC has about 260 gp worth of gear assuming the standard game. At most (fast XP progression and high fantasy) they have 780 gp worth of gear. I generally assume your standard soldier is well armed for different circumstances, which generally means wearing studded leather, carrying a reach weapon and maybe a gauntlet, a sling ('cause bows are expensive and slings are cheap and benefit from strength), some alchemical items like acid flasks to use as grenades, and possibly a potion of either magic weapon, enlarge person, or cure light wounds depending on their specialization (trooper, shooter, or medic). None of them have the wealth allocation to support really uber gear.
The majority of the army's shock troopers or casters will more than likely be adepts who cast bless on the army, function as field medics, and have a similar kit. However, they probably also have some partially charged wands they were issued 'cause they are cheap and effective. That means that your exceptionally strong adepts (about 3rd level) will probably sport a wand of lightning bolt with 1-2 charges, which they use against threats (a lot of PCs would even say arming these low level NPCs with cheap consumable wands is unfair, but screw that, these guys want to live) like modern military uses rocket launchers (but then it is more than likely halved by an easy DC 14 saving throw and then reduced by energy resistances on their gear).
As for the combat reflexes bit, it's called reach weapons, or reach weapons + enlarge person, which is a staple of magical military combat. My players have learned to fear the orcs with glaives and their magic zug-zug juice their shamans make, and normal soldiers generally do too. In fact, mobbing the 10th level fighter is likely a testament of a soldier's faith in their cause, because anyone with two braincells would throw their weapon down and beg for mercy, especially after watching a fighter literally parry/dodge/shrug off a volley of arrows that would have slaughtered his whole battalion without even taking his eyes off the mooks he was fighting!
I also didn't say the army has no magic. In fact, I'm pretty sure I specifically said stuff like "screw protection from arrows, oils of magic weapon are cheap" or something similar. I just pointed out that each soldier isn't going to have a ton of magical equipment. A standard PC however, will. That's just how it is. Anything else is a house rule.
Now I suppose that in your campaign you might have a benefactor with near unlimited resources, so he arms every soldier with a few thousand gold pieces worth of magical treasures. Forget the fact basic infantry soldiers often had to purchase their own armor in reality because mail was expensive and wasn't provided by armies. You can't even afford full plate for soldiers with fast-high-fantasy NPC rules, so screw affording magic items that are worth their salt.
So yeah, I'm following the rules and I'm talking about what NPCs will actually have. Now if you want to start tossing out that the army also has more and more high level characters to keep readily trying to balance it out until the army would win, you go right ahead, because I don't give two rusty coppers (copper doesn't rust by the way, hint hint), because every time I mentioned mundane characters - who make up the majority of the world - being the army. That's 1st-3rd level characters, primarily NPC classed, with NPC wealth, and so forth.
When you begin talking about all the wizards and classed NPCs who are strong enough to make a difference, you are then talking about how high level characters can beat low level characters. Well, duh. I'm pretty sure a group of level 8 PCs can own a 10th level PC. I'm pretty sure a squad of 5th level PCs could probably give them a hard run for their money unless they were really bringing their A-game and being prepared for countering most everything.
So yeah, you give one guy a sherman tank (AKA a 10th level PC) and everyone else a stick (AKA 1st-3rd level NPCs) sticks, stones, and the occasional flintlock pistol, and you are going to end up with pretty much the same effect as a properly geared and seasoned high level adventurer. We can even scale the example up. 10th level PC = tank vs infantry with anti-personnel weapons. 20th level PC = Skynet vs infantry with anti-personnel weapons.
EDIT: AFK for a while, playing Skyrim, so I probably won't respond for a good while. Just got the game, and I've humorously reached about 20th level without actually leaving the first town, due to leveling stuff like Stealth, Pickpocket, Lockpicking, Blacksmithing, Speech, etc. Someone told me the highest level is 50, but I hope not, 'cause at this rate I'll be level 50 within a day or two, and won't have even fought my first dragon. :(
Enlarge & Reach weapon :
Melee guys charge fighter. No attack of opportunity. Polearm guys charge melee guy, filling position behind melee guys. As a melee guy get's gacked, polearm guys five ft adjust, leave opening. New melee guy charges in. No AoO. Lather/rinse/repeat.
Wind Wall :
Entire army (melee and archers) are also armed with slings (cheap, simple weapon). Sling bullets have 30% miss chance. Same to hit, 5%. Every melee guy in range slings every round. Let's see, 50ft range increment. So, maximum range... 250 ft. 250ft diameter circle, too tired to do math... so let's say 50 guys in a straight line, I'm thinking all 400 of the melee guys could be within 100 feet of him. Archers within 250 feet easy. Same chance to hit across the board. So, 450 attacks per round (not counting the guys in melee). 5% chance to hit. 22 hits per round. 16 hit after 30% miss chance from wind wall. 4.5 average damage (+2 str assumed). 72 damage per round. Unless he has adamantine, then he'd average 24 damage per round.
Of course, all this assumes that 200 guys don't throw alchemist fires and acid flasks before their friends charge in. Yes, you can put up energy resistance. Now you're putting up at least four spells (energy resistance x 2, wind wall, enlarge person), not sure where the fighter is getting all the spells from. Some can be potions, but he's either quaffing them before ambushing the army (how'd he get close without encountering scouts), or he's doing it in the face of the enemy (in which case, 100 acid flask kill him if he drinks the enlarge first, and the fire erases his corpse), or if he drinks one of the resist energies first, the other energy type kills him, since he takes at least 1 point no matter what for each flask. And not sure how he's getting the wind wall up. UMD? That's something he'd have to do in the middle of combat, so the archers would likely get a round on him anyway.
Hmm, so yeah, if you give the level 10 fighter all the potions he can quaff, and then he teleports into the middle of the army (somehow, without casting spells himself) and you catch them by surprise, you can do some damage. In other words, if you set the situation up so he has every possible advantage, he can probably kill quite a few people. But eventually his wind wall runs out, the archers hit him, he has to start quaffing potions, etc etc etc. He can probably hurt 500 guys enough to get them to run away (or at least retreat enough so they can peg him with arrows and slings and he has to chase them down one at a time to kill one person, while they're scattering and pegging him repeatedly with arrows and bullets).
Now, up that to 10,000 troops (the claim made above). With 3000 archers, and everyone just scatters away from the big bad fighter when he shows off how billy bad ass he is and starts pegging him with sling bullets. I'd guess you could get a 1000 people in a 500 ft diameter circle pretty easily. Probably 2000. So, that's what... 70 (100 - 30% miss chance) sling bullets per round hitting him if he get's up the wind wall? Which is not a mobile spell? So he stays inside and does nothing while he get's pelted to death. Or he leaves it, and the archers start adding 3,000 arrows to it per round. Oh, and everyone just runs away from him every round, unless they're too far to reach on a charge, then they pelt him with bullets and arrows. So he's running around, chasing down one guy at a time, maybe killing him (assuming the guy he runs down doesn't withdraw). All the while he's being nickled and dimed to death.
EDIT : Oh,and that enlarge? And that reach weapon? That's dropping his AC. So instead of the 30AC I gave him, he's probably got what, 24? So some of those guys are going to hit on a 19 or 20. Some might even on an 18 if an adept goes 'oooohhhhllllaaaaa you are blessed now kick his assssseeeedddd'. :)
Of course, all this assumes that 200 guys don't throw alchemist fires and acid flasks before their friends charge in. Yes, you can put up energy resistance. Now you're putting up at least four spells (energy resistance x 2, wind wall, enlarge person), not sure where the fighter is getting all the spells from. Some can be potions, but he's either quaffing them before ambushing the army (how'd he get close without encountering scouts), or he's doing it in the face of the enemy (in which case, 100 acid flask kill him if he drinks the enlarge first, and the fire erases his corpse), or if he drinks one of the resist energies first, the other energy type kills him, since he takes at least 1 point no matter what for each flask. And not sure how he's getting the wind wall up. UMD? That's something he'd have to do in the middle of combat, so the archers would likely get a round on him anyway.
I just wanted to chime in and note that energy resistances are cheap, and should be continuous on your armor. If you're 10th level and still quaffing potions for CL 1 resist energy, you're doing it wrong.
I don't know what game you're playing, but energy resistance in Pathfinder is 18,000GP
WBL for a level 10 character is 64,000.
So you're saying half his wealth should be in his armor to stop energy attacks?
I revise my estimate of his ability to survive way down. Adamantine Full-Plate, +1, with resist fire and acid (minimum).
10,500 (Adamantine)
36,000 (Energy resistance x 2)
1,000 (+1)
1,500 (Armor)
48,000 total.
He's got 16,000 left for everything else you want to give him.
His ac is about 21 now (+1 dex, +10 armor). Mooks are hitting him on a 17+. Up my damage above.
EDIT : Oh, by the way, that violates his WBL rules, since he's got 60% or more of his wealth in one item, but who's counting.
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i beleive Ashiel is talking about item creation formulas, which include a formula for making a ring (or similar item) of a continuous resist energy spell effect created by a 4th level ranger (Caster level 1st) for a price tag of 2,000 gold. (1,000 if crafted). in other words. an unpublished item using a core formula.
i beleive Ashiel is talking about item creation formulas, which include a formula for making a ring (or similar item) of a continuous resist energy spell effect created by a 1st level ranger for a price tag of 2,000 gold. (1,000 if crafted)
Which is an invalid price. The item rules specifically state, use existing magic item prices for things that already exist. Since energy resistance exists already as a magic item (magic armor with 18,000 gp enchantment), that is the cost of a continuous resist energy effect. You can make it a ring, or an amulet, or a hairpin, but it's still 18,000gp (although the hairpin, being slotless, would be 50% more).
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the 2,000 GP version is a combination of the formulae in the Back of the CRB, and abuse of which class gets the spell at the lowest caster level. it's like buying a CL1st wand of lesser restoration that was made by a paladin because it's a 1st level spell on the paladin list. resist energy is a 1st level spell on the ranger list. use of loopholes to cheat price.
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Enlarge & Reach weapon :
Melee guys charge fighter. No attack of opportunity. Polearm guys charge melee guy, filling position behind melee guys. As a melee guy get's gacked, polearm guys five ft adjust, leave opening. New melee guy charges in. No AoO. Lather/rinse/repeat.
Can you explain how the melee guys are charging through 10ft reach without provoking AoOs? I'd like to use that for my battle cleric's tactics.
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Can you explain how the melee guys are charging through 10ft reach without provoking AoOs? I'd like to use that for my battle cleric's tactics.Enlarge & Reach weapon :
Melee guys charge fighter. No attack of opportunity. Polearm guys charge melee guy, filling position behind melee guys. As a melee guy get's gacked, polearm guys five ft adjust, leave opening. New melee guy charges in. No AoO. Lather/rinse/repeat.
Reach Weapons?
Can you explain how the melee guys are charging through 10ft reach without provoking AoOs? I'd like to use that for my battle cleric's tactics.Enlarge & Reach weapon :
Melee guys charge fighter. No attack of opportunity. Polearm guys charge melee guy, filling position behind melee guys. As a melee guy get's gacked, polearm guys five ft adjust, leave opening. New melee guy charges in. No AoO. Lather/rinse/repeat.
Blech, that's what I get for posting so early in the morning on no sleep.
Just looked at the table for 'provkes', see charge, see no. Check.
Forgot about that not applying to reach. Blech.
I need sleep, I hate insomnia.
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The charge itself doesn't. But the moving through the reach does. Unless I'm just too tired to find the rule. I could have sworn it didn't either, but double checked and can't see anything to indicate that the movement out of the reach threatened square doesn't provoke, so it does.
When you leave a threatened square, you provoke. It doesn't matter how you leave it. The only exceptions are :
Withdraw action
5ft adjust
Being Bull Rushed
Being Hydraulic Pumped
(May be more, but those are the only four I know).
So the charge itself doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. But if you charge past someone, and go through their threatened squares, you provoke. Not for charging, but for moving out of a threatened square.
Same with the reach weapon.
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*shrug*
FAQ it. Every other instance of movement (not attacking, but movement) not provoking an attack of opportunity as normal is specifically called out. It would be odd if this one didn't provoke but didn't call it out.
It would also mean you could charge past 6 foes in a row and attack the guy in the back without provoking from any of them, which seems really odd, since usually ignoring 6 people to attack the guy behind them is the essence of getting tripped and kicked and chopped up.
Honestly,
We've been reading it this way for years. I didn't even think about it until TOZ said something.
Charges do not provoke an attack of opportunity by the target, but anyone you charge past (who is not the target of the charge, and therefore not part of the charge) you still provoke from (since they are not a part of the charge maneuver).
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Looking at the attack of opportunity information, I don't see anything that specifically overrides the table saying Charge does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Remember, you are using a special full round action and not normal movement when you charge.
Note the superscript 1 after the header of the Attack of Opportunity column.
Regardless of the action, if you move out of a threatened square, you usually provoke an attack of opportunity. This column indicates whether the action itself, not moving, provokes an attack of opportunity.
i beleive Ashiel is talking about item creation formulas, which include a formula for making a ring (or similar item) of a continuous resist energy spell effect created by a 1st level ranger for a price tag of 2,000 gold. (1,000 if crafted)Which is an invalid price. The item rules specifically state, use existing magic item prices for things that already exist. Since energy resistance exists already as a magic item (magic armor with 18,000 gp enchantment), that is the cost of a continuous resist energy effect. You can make it a ring, or an amulet, or a hairpin, but it's still 18,000gp (although the hairpin, being slotless, would be 50% more).
The price of resist energy is in error. The resist energy armor effect is priced based on a 2nd level spell at 3rd caster level and would otherwise adhere to the formula. However, the magic item creation rules are clear, and the actual price for a magic item is based on the lowest possible caster level, regardless of who makes it. That means rangers who have resist energy as a 1st level spell at CL 1 are the correct price to use.
It's a simple error. The books are full of them. I started a thread once pointing out a few errors here and there, including in stat blocks. For example, ogres are listed with a greatclub as their weapon, but the creature isn't actually proficient with it, so the ogre's to-hit is actually 4 more than it should be, or the ogre should be wielding a simple weapon such as a club, mace, or spear instead.
CL 1 * 1 * 2000 * 1.5 (duration mod) * 1.5 (added to existing magic item) should be the correct price, resulting in a cost of +4,500 gp per basic energy resistance.
EDIT: More advanced energy resistances (such as resist 20 or 30) cost significantly more. +31,500 gp for resist 20, and +49,000 gp respectively.
I'm sorry, but no. This is the same logic that says 'I can buy an amulet f permanent mage armor using the formulas for 1 * 1 * 2000' and have a +4 AC. Despite the fact Bracers of Armor +4 are WAY more than 2000.
If an effect is already in the magic items, you use that price. There's no 'mistake'. It costs the listed GP for that ability. Pay that.
pathfinder 2.0 should just drop the alignment system entirely and save a bunch of headaches.
just a reminder, from THE LIST:
863. Even if there is no alignment in Traveller, giving feuding TL1 tribes TL12 weapons and putting the results on PPV is just wrong.
5. Not allowed to blow all my skill points on 1pt professional skills.
and i can't find it right now, but somewhere there's one about how no matter the alignment, organising halfling pitfights is a violation.
moral: some things are beyond any alignment system.
PS: for those of you i've tricked into thinking i'm contributing, disillusion yourself. this is dotting the thread... with style! (buzz lightyear theme music)
LOL
I'm sorry, but no. This is the same logic that says 'I can buy an amulet f permanent mage armor using the formulas for 1 * 1 * 2000' and have a +4 AC. Despite the fact Bracers of Armor +4 are WAY more than 2000.
If an effect is already in the magic items, you use that price. There's no 'mistake'. It costs the listed GP for that ability. Pay that.
Or 'your mistaking magic item pricing guidelines, for magic item pricing rules. The guidelines are little more than a starting point in the art of pricing magic items, rather than a precise formula which should be slavishly followed at all time.'
pathfinder 2.0 should just drop the alignment system entirely and save a bunch of headaches.just a reminder, from THE LIST:
863. Even if there is no alignment in Traveller, giving feuding TL1 tribes TL12 weapons and putting the results on PPV is just wrong.
5. Not allowed to blow all my skill points on 1pt professional skills.
and i can't find it right now, but somewhere there's one about how no matter the alignment, organising halfling pitfights is a violation.
moral: some things are beyond any alignment system.
PS: for those of you i've tricked into thinking i'm contributing, disillusion yourself. this is dotting the thread... with style! (buzz lightyear theme music)
Congratulations, you have won the thread.
I'm sorry, but no. This is the same logic that says 'I can buy an amulet f permanent mage armor using the formulas for 1 * 1 * 2000' and have a +4 AC. Despite the fact Bracers of Armor +4 are WAY more than 2000.
If an effect is already in the magic items, you use that price. There's no 'mistake'. It costs the listed GP for that ability. Pay that.
Mage armor gives an armor bonus. There is already a formula to price armor bonuses. This is already covered under a separate rule. There is no such effect for energy resistance except for the existing spell formula, which is used exactly, with the minor error that resist energy's lowest spell and caster level is 1, not 3rd. This is an oversight.
Sorry, but the correct cost for minor resistance is 3,000 gp, or 4,500 gp if added to an existing magic item.
Reverse engineering shows that they followed the formula exactly, but didn't remember rangers have the spell at 1st level and CL 1. Oversight. Just like the ogre not being proficient with his weapon but listed with bonuses as if proficient was an oversight.
There is an existing item for energy resistance. It's called, oddly enough, 'energy resistance'. It's attached to armor. It's given a price, 18K gp per resistance. It's there, in black and white.
You can't use the general rules to override a specific, which is the cost of energy resistant armor.
I begin to see how your level 10's are killing 10K people, you just heap a bunch of gold on them, beyond what they should have, by short circuting RAW.
And, for your edification, they didn't follow any formula. They used the price in 3.5, for backwards compatibility.
The price to be energy resistance is 18K per element, added onto a +1 armor.
There is an existing item for energy resistance. It's called, oddly enough, 'energy resistance'. It's attached to armor. It's given a price, 18K gp per resistance. It's there, in black and white.
You can't use the general rules to override a specific, which is the cost of energy resistant armor.
I begin to see how your level 10's are killing 10K people, you just heap a bunch of gold on them, beyond what they should have, by short circuting RAW.
And, for your edification, they didn't follow any formula. They used the price in 3.5, for backwards compatibility.
The price to be energy resistance is 18K per element, added onto a +1 armor.
The formular should be 3 (caster) * 2 (level) * 1.5 (wrong slot/no slot) * 2000 (continuous)
So its 18k by that formular.
And yes many things are weird once you take different classes into account. Bards can make some spells into wands which would be impossible to stuff them into them alone. As do Paladins & Rangers.
This has never been really adressed.
The problem with the statement 'my 10th level fighter can take out a large army single handed' is that it ignores the way the system works.
Example :
10th level fighter, say 16 Con with bonuses. Max HP first level, average thereafter. 9*5.5 + 10 + 30 = 49.5 + 10 + 30 = 89.5, or 90 to make it a nice round number.
Let's say he has an uber AC, and it's 30 (another nice round number).
He attacks 500 1st level mooks. The mooks can only hit him on a 20. However, there's say 100 archer behind the 400 melee mooks.
The melee mooks surround him, and some pikemen get behind them. So each round, he has 16 attacks coming in for say 1d8+1 per hit. Plus 100 mooks shooting arrows at 1d6 (shortbows).
Now, he's got a 10 BAB, so he get's two attacks per round. Each mook has what, 8 HP? Let's give him a minimum damage of 12 pts. So ever round he kills 2 mooks.
With 100 archers, each needing a 20 to hit (doesn't matter what their bab is, or the penalties for firing into melee, they still need a 20). Each round 5 are going to hit, and 5 are going to critically fail. On average. So first round, he takes 5*3.5 = 17hp from archers. The mooks can get three hits in every four rounds. So, at the end of four rounds he's taken 17*4 (archers), plus 5.5*3 (mooks) = 68 + 17 = 95 hp of damage. That's over his hp. So he's going to have to start quaffing potions every other round. That provokes attacks of opportunity. More attacks. That's not even including crits, which are going to show up on a 20/20 (every 400 attacks, granted).
He'll have killed, in the first four rounds, 5 mooks. 1 on the initial charge, two on round two, none on round 3 (quaff potion), 2 on round four. It's a no win situation. Don't care what he's got for equipment.
Now, archery guy. He's got it better, he can ping the melee guys from range, until the run up to him. He can rapid shot and take out a dozen or so, but the archers are still going to be pinging him as well, and it's 100 to 1. He can kill 3-4 a round,...
Exactly. You get it entirely. The use of tactics, back-up, reserves, flanking and just piling the attacks on, takes them out.
Now an elite unit with decent numbers and filled with members of great ability, those really destroy armies. Not three musketeers, two-three hundred.
On the charge business I think I see how it went. One saw it as no, doesn't provoke opportunity, but the rules on movement and provoking are quite clear, but need to be read thoroughly.
Charge an orgre straight up as a human with a non reach sword when it is ready for you, AOO. It has reach, you must move through a threatened square to hit it. Ogres used well can mince low level pcs, because of their str and the AOOs.
If weapon is set for charge, and opponent charges, AOO with double damage if it hits.
Move through a threatened square to attack someone else, AOO.
Run onto a reach polearm to make an attack, AOO.
Run through threatened squares, AOO and you are flat footed.
I have seen players try to take terrible odds, presuming that they will win because they are great. How elite the opponents are is important and as is, the morale of the masses. They might freak out early on, but if they keep doing damage, following orders, they wear elites down. If they have x3 to x4 weapons like spears, longspears, bows, halberds, greataxes and picks, a few lucky crits can take out even a tough hero. Spear walls are not to be foolishly assaulted unless you really are over ten levels above the defenders, and then it is best not to make a habit of it.
Some area of effect stuff is almost useless against spread out skirmishing armies/scouts/ninjas etc.
Good thread!
There is an existing item for energy resistance. It's called, oddly enough, 'energy resistance'. It's attached to armor. It's given a price, 18K gp per resistance. It's there, in black and white.
You can't use the general rules to override a specific, which is the cost of energy resistant armor.
I begin to see how your level 10's are killing 10K people, you just heap a bunch of gold on them, beyond what they should have, by short circuting RAW.
And, for your edification, they didn't follow any formula. They used the price in 3.5, for backwards compatibility.
The price to be energy resistance is 18K per element, added onto a +1 armor.
So instead of addressing how the army is loaded with magic items and somehow countering everything without that everything being explained by anything beyond "lots of attacks", or addressing the fact I've actually been basing everything I've said off the rules; including taking NPC wealth by level into account, and even pointing out rule inconsistencies and errors; so now you want to argue about item prices?
Look, I'm following the rules here. I don't care if you don't want to follow the rules. I see a mistake in the rules, and I take it into consideration, just like I arm my ogres with simple weapons if they lack levels in warrior, despite them being listed with a martial weapon at full attack bonus while lacking proficiency.
I'm not interested in arguing the price of minor resist energy with you, and I won't. However, if you believe that the simple lack of energy resistance changes things in extreme ways, you are sorely mistaken. The only thing it changes is making the Fighter easier to kill, as most other classes have simple and easy access to resist energy (clerics, druids, rangers, wizards, paladin, ranger, sorcerer, and wizard, leaving only bards, fighters, rogues, and barbarians without it, and barbarians have rage powers that can still foil alchemist bombing).
I believe you have effectively run to the end of your rope in this argument, and are now grabbing at straws to try and fight about it. It's not worth fighting about though, and it's just irritating me at this point. I think I should go to bed, since I've been up all night, and then resume talking about why Professions encompassing tons of skills is stupid.
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On a side note, if anyone is curious, you can use Craft to make trade goods. Craft (Jewelry) can be used to make fine art objects which can be traded as gold. You spend 1/3 of the items monetary value in materials, and then craft the item. Given enough time to craft, you can triple your investment. Because of this, Craft Jewelry is a good complimentary skill for mages and magical artisans with plenty of down time. Your craft skill can actually fund your item creation, and even be the raw materials for your product.
For example, if you want to create a headslot item that grants +1 Intelligence, that costs 500 gp to create. You might then create an exotic egg worth 500 gp with an initial investment of 166 gp to pay for the item, or you might instead make a pretty silver circlet that is worth 500 gp to be material used. Either way, it adds a bit of personality to your activities, and is often more effective in time spent working than merely taking 1/2 your craft check.
For example. With 12 weeks of work (at DC 20), you could create a 500 gp art object for 166 gp. You are making a profit of about 334 gp, versus the 125 gp you would have made just taking 1/2 your check result in currency.
So are you going to profit the army to death?
Become the greatest warrior or master of war there ever was, by being a craftsman?
These are serious questions, I have encountered players who thought wealth and more magic items was always the ultimate solution. It isn't. Tactics, preparation, knowing when to fight and when not to fight, that is better.
One character, or a tiny group of characters against thousands? They will be exhausted before they even cause a rout.
I will however agree on one point, in a high magic game, players can amass all sorts of powers and ability through crafting or magic item shopping. It can make them into juggernauts, but they still remain mortal (until they aren't). It is why I keep my games low magic, more medieval, gritty and real. The danger is higher, the excitement is higher. I don't want someone to feel not threatened by a lot of loosed crossbow bolts, or feel they can take all the elite cav of the land. When they think that way and become such threats, they are almost doomed to getting into a fight with armies or whole kingdoms they presumed they could order around. Get too many powerful magic items and the challenge of the game can also fade. Although a wizard kept up by raiders, exhausted of spells and constantly harassed is in for probably a slow death, unless he can escape (and of course, such players will always insist they can get away, scott free). Just a few sad observations to end my post.
There is an existing item for energy resistance. It's called, oddly enough, 'energy resistance'. It's attached to armor. It's given a price, 18K gp per resistance. It's there, in black and white.
You can't use the general rules to override a specific, which is the cost of energy resistant armor.
I begin to see how your level 10's are killing 10K people, you just heap a bunch of gold on them, beyond what they should have, by short circuting RAW.
And, for your edification, they didn't follow any formula. They used the price in 3.5, for backwards compatibility.
The price to be energy resistance is 18K per element, added onto a +1 armor.
So instead of addressing how the army is loaded with magic items and somehow countering everything without that everything being explained by anything beyond "lots of attacks", or addressing the fact I've actually been basing everything I've said off the rules; including taking NPC wealth by level into account, and even pointing out rule inconsistencies and errors; so now you want to argue about item prices?
Look, I'm following the rules here. I don't care if you don't want to follow the rules. I see a mistake in the rules, and I take it into consideration, just like I arm my ogres with simple weapons if they lack levels in warrior, despite them being listed with a martial weapon at full attack bonus while lacking proficiency.
I'm not interested in arguing the price of minor resist energy with you, and I won't. However, if you believe that the simple lack of energy resistance changes things in extreme ways, you are sorely mistaken. The only thing it changes is making the Fighter easier to kill, as most other classes have simple and easy access to resist energy (clerics, druids, rangers, wizards, paladin, ranger, sorcerer, and wizard, leaving only bards, fighters, rogues, and barbarians without it, and barbarians have rage powers that can still foil alchemist bombing).
I believe you have effectively run to the...
The end of the argument, that powerful pcs can't reliably take whole armies, has not even been remotely reached.
Also not considered, is that if a pc or a group of pcs are ready to wage war on entire realms, and kill 10k people, the heroes of yesteryear and the other powerful adventuring groups may also come to oppose the characters. Veritable A teams can assembled of past and present heroes. From heads of churches, to the best knights of the land, to groups of elite assassins, to barbarian warlords, to scout commandoes, to Musashi-like swordsman, insanely good elven archers and semi-retired court wizards that haven't raided a dungeon in some time, but which can summon truly terrifying monsters, break down protections and force saves versus disintegration.
Dnd is about the heroes, and if the players want to be highly active villains, heroes will emerge. If some characters did wipe out or rout an army of thousands, it could be the worse move they ever made.
Now the sheer scale of their murder really could also attract a lot of allies, evil underlings and evil adventurers to their group as well, but not if they get wiped out by other pros first. Acting with and as a part of an army, or following the sacrifice of many men to weaken the "army takers" prior to the end-play.
I've had players exploit oversights before. It keeps you on your toes ;)
By the rules it appears both ways can be argued correctly in terms of crafting. What way the GM allows is up to the GM. I'd lean more towards following the existing items pricing as opposed to the crafting because I feel that the oversight would allow for cheaply made items compared to their power level but that's just me.
I've also had players use crafting and profession to well exceed the amount of gold that they should have been carrying, with the intention to purchase magic items and/or craft magic items that far exceed what they should normally have.
If you are a stickler for the rules you have to get very creative as a GM to find ways to circumvent this (in which case many will call foul).
I had a guy playing a psionicist once who did jsut this very thing, had 5x the amount of gold he should have had and had items taht were meant for a much higher level (back in my days of not saying no) and he single handedly wrecked the campaign with his power. The end result was a dragon ate him and stole his stuff for his hoard. (his reputation began to proceed him)
Said player quit the campaign after that though furious. Kind of a hard spot to be in though, when you have a grotesquely overpowered character (through the obtaining of items he should not be wielding at his level) wrecking the campaign. The only thing that *could* challenge him and his small army of retainers was a much more powerful dragon. (and it made sense)
So are you going to profit the army to death?
Become the greatest warrior or master of war there ever was, by being a craftsman?
These are serious questions, I have encountered players who thought wealth and more magic items was always the ultimate solution. It isn't. Tactics, preparation, knowing when to fight and when not to fight, that is better.
One character, or a tiny group of characters against thousands? They will be exhausted before they even cause a rout.
I will however agree on one point, in a high magic game, players can amass all sorts of powers and ability through crafting or magic item shopping. It can make them into juggernauts, but they still remain mortal (until they aren't). It is why I keep my games low magic, more medieval, gritty and real. The danger is higher, the excitement is higher. I don't want someone to feel not threatened by a lot of loosed crossbow bolts, or feel they can take all the elite cav of the land. When they think that way and become such threats, they are almost doomed to getting into a fight with armies or whole kingdoms they presumed they could order around. Get too many powerful magic items and the challenge of the game can also fade. Although a wizard kept up by raiders, exhausted of spells and constantly harassed is in for probably a slow death, unless he can escape (and of course, such players will always insist they can get away, scott free). Just a few sad observations to end my post.
I still haven't made it to bed. Sometimes I wonder if I have insomnia. Also, high magic has little to do with it. The only difference between high magic and low magic is how much you want spellcasters to overpower non-spellcasters. Magic items are the equalizer more than the multiplier.
I don't see why you guys seem to think I'm somehow against tactics though. I'm very well aware of how dangerous hordes of low level NPCs are to PCs. In fact, I submit My Players Are Kicking My Butt and Help me with a Tucker's Kobolds scenario as evidence of this.
I'm just saying that by 20th level, PCs who aren't in the habit of dying on a regular basis will more or less have to be immune to most everything normal people can throw at them, making it near impossible for a normal army to fight them; in the same way it's nearly impossible for a normal army to fight a Balor. If the army is still a threat, then they are probably going to get slaughtered by anything their level that's worth its salt.
By 10th level, most of the classes using standard WBL can have a good chance of defeating an army, not through brute force but through tactics. Notice that in my examples, I never suggested the fighter should just wade into combat cutting down 1000 troops one guy at a time. I mentioned he would some cheap (relatively) trinkets to cause havoc for the enemy while tanking their attacks as much as possible. He just has to cause enough destruction and chaos that it routes the army, in the same way that NPCs in adventure paths will route when their HP falls too low. I mentioned using cheap levitation, a couple of cheap fireballs when useful, dropping cover producing tokens, using an elemental gem or similar, and using smokesticks to reduce incoming attacks by half. It's not about brute force. If it is about brute force, the army would definitely win. Numbers are brute force. Using tactics that reduce the effectiveness of those numbers is not.
Now wizards could arguably brute-force their way through it, but that's just because they are exceptionally effective against mass numbers of enemies. Their numbers mean diddly against a wizard, since the wizard will make it utter hell to actually hurt him with the smidgeon of attacks that land, while wiping out chucks of their numbers quickly and efficiently. If you add in guerrilla tactics, the wizard pretty much rocks a normal army, because he can just scry on the army, teleport nearby, make a guerrilla assault, teleport away again. Unless the army has similarly leveled heroes, then the army will fold against this sort of assault, as they basically just get to watch the wizard carpet bomb their camp randomly each day. The wizard himself needn't even do it if he doesn't want to, as he can just as easily get his minions to do it for him (a single succubus can wreak havoc on an army as an internal assassin, for example).
There are different ways of doing it. That's kind of the point. There's no wrong way to eat a Reeses, and there's no one way to destroy an army, but high level characters can do it. It could be any number of things. A necromancer just overruns them with A) plague zombies, B) flaming chickens, C) replicating shadows under his control. Wizards can carpet bomb, or call forth outsiders or elementals who are no threat to the wizard but are essentially doomsday harbingers for most mortals. A cleric calls on angels and celestial beings to do his work. Druids make terrain impossible to march over without killing yourself, and make the forest, the grass, and the skies turn against you with deep hatred and desire for blood; while the very birds of the sky and fish of the waters are his eyes and ears.
The ranger has a Stealth score so amazingly high that he can slip into a camp and take out all of their generals while they are asleep, without relying on invisibility (just a lesser cloak of displacement will do) like Solid Snake in Stealth Camo. Paladins use mounted archery and skirmishing to drop fireballs or other bad things into the enemy ranks from around 1100 to 1650 feet away.
Bards are a mixture of all of the above. Sorcerers are like wizards for the most part. Barbarians are like Fighters and Paladins but with different pros and cons (being able to outrun mounted patrols on foot is pretty funny and has to account for something :P).
Monks could stand in front of the army and make them laugh to death when they challenge them. *snicker*
I'm not even getting into the dirty stuff you can do that makes people shake their head at the levels of core rulebook cheese you have brought down on the party. It could get so, so, soooooooo much worse. I'm keeping simple to try and make sure everyone is on the same page.