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Anyone else have this problem?
I think you need to be upfront with your players before character creation when you have a specifically themed campaign. As you say, it's no good playing a pirate campaign if all the characters are heavily armored and no ranks in profession or campaign useful skills (balance, climb, for example). Those characters arent going to be much use the first time they're out on a boat. It's the DM's job to run the campiagn but the players job to fit into it. If you've already started, find ways to make the players think hard about working on the skills and knowledge they'll need to succeed in your game.
For example, I knew I'd done a good job in a diplomacy heavy campaign when most of the PC's increased their charisma at 4th level and/or bumped their social skills, because they'd seen the benefit to it during the campaign.
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LOL... yes my group has this problem. We had an awesome Rogue game set up. All PC's were roguish types in a gritty town called Five Fingers. We were told up front that no magic and skills would be important. Wouldn't you know it but Profession and perform were rarely taken by anyone. Also we had a "Rogue" (combat heavy focus) in the heaviest armor offered (Medium) with a shield. He could not swim / acro or go running and jumping rooftops with the rest of us so my character (and a few others) ended up almost dead on several occasions because he couldn't flee with this guy in the group.
- He almost drowned when we had to drive a horse/cart into the river to flee a rich merchant we had robbed. DM save all the way... but the guy still wore that armor no matter what mission we were given. Some just don't buy into the genre your setting or they have to be beat over the head with the GM stick of disapproval. lol
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Try granting bonus feats/traits according to the region the PCs are from.
If they're all trained in combat like Spartans, grant everyone from that area proficiency in Light armor, Shields, Shortswords and Longspears and give them all a +2 competence bonus to Profession: Soldier (and make it always a class skill)
If they're all sailors give them proficiency in the net, cutlass and trident and +2 competence/class skill in swim, climb and Profession: Sailor.
These kinds of cultural packages aren't game breaking, they're easy to come up with and they add a lot of flavor. You might have someone latch onto the bonuses as a foundation for their character.
Things to avoid: Don't grant proficiencies in easily optimized or powerful weapons. Having an entire culture that has proficiency in the Greatsword is a neat idea, but can cause problems. Don't give out Acrobatics or Stealth. Those are the two most combat-viable skills in the game. There's a reason there aren't any traits that grant Acrobatics as a class skill. It's because *everyone* would take it.
If you want the players to be able to fight as part of a phalanx sometimes you need to just give it to them, not expect them to spend character resources on it. It's part of their background as a member of that culture, and it fits your vision, so don't tax them for it. Reward them, and you might just see them expanding on those rewards when they see how it makes them fit into the game better.
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OP - I don't think you're viewing this in quite the right light.
If your PCs don't fit in with the local culture, if they aren't viewed as functional members of mainstream society and if they stick out like a sore thumb - THAT'S A GOOD THING.
I'm going out on a limb here and thinking you might want to be running a campaign focused on adventure. Color me crazy, but I think that's what Pathfinder is best at.
You don't want the NPCs to view PCs as a good future son-in-law or business partner, promising able hand or good neighbor. They NEED to be seen as outcasts, layabouts, troublemakers or threats. You NEED to let the PCs know that they are discriminated against by the locals, just enough to make them think "someday, I'm gonna prove that they were wrong about me" but not so much that they think "someday, I'm gonna burn this whole wretched place to the ground". (unless you were aiming for THAT sort of campaign...)
You need to give them that one ray of hope for a happy ending. The mayor's daughter, who thinks that a PC is nice, even though her father thinks that the Sheriff's son is a better match. The Wizard's apprentice who has a not-so-secret crush on a PC, even though the wizard wants to marry them off to the GuildMaster's kid for political gain, etc.
The PC has to know that they have a rival with all the establishment advantages of higher class, more money, better gear, political power, etc. They have to think out of the box to get what they want.
They have to answer the call and go to the places that civilized people avoid. They have to do things that townsfolk won't.
They have to go become adventurers.
I think the point he's making is that before you become an adventurer you have to do something. The thing is that adventurers have skills that aren't on the sheet, who does the cooking round the camp fire? No one puts skill points into it but it happens, most people do jobs they aren't skilled in which is why farm hands and such exist in fantasy games.
The key thing to remember is that just because the local army fights in a certain style doesn't mean that a self educated swordsman who goes up against dragons would use the same style, adventurers would naturally gravitate towards the best tactics for their "job" and use that.
The best suggestion by far was the trait method by one of the above posters, you need to reward character background to encourage immersion anyway but if the pcs have loads of resources invested into something they never use then they just become bad adventurers. Giving them it for free is probably the best way to go.
Yeah, Pathfinder isn't Hackmaster, where everyone has the equivalent of Skill Focus--digging, as well as a missing finger, bad B.O., a limp, a wart on their nose, bad breath, bad hair, are ugly, and dressed funny by their mother....just to get a single +1 stat.
Pathfinder is about heroic PCs. While everyone else in society was learning their job, PCs were learning how to be heroes. They usually have high enough ability scores that their un-trained bonus is equivalent to a commoner or expert's trained skill. Or at least enough to get by.
That said, I think Pathfinder kind of dropped the ball by getting rid of Constitution-based skills. Endurance could have been a Constitution based skill instead of a feat, as could stuff like Athletics (throwing, catching, running, blocking, etc.), Laborer (ditch-digging, farming, porter, etc.), Marching/Hiking (checks made to reduce non-lethal damage, hustle quicker and longer, etc.), Regenerate (basically self-Heal checks through sheer toughness) etc. etc.
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I hate it when people suggest a good rolepay character has to have ranks in Profession. It's a stupid skill with only one mechanical use - making money.
Roleplay =/= sacrificing resources (skill points, in this case) or making sub-optimal choices.
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I think you guys are missing the OP's point.
Being able to contribute outside of one-on-one arena combat, is not sup-optimal. In many setting fights on boats occur. being able to not fall off the boat and drown is a good choice. I don't think I have ever had a campaign where we didn't get a fight or chase scene on horseback.
If you can't do anything other than straight combat, I would call that a very sub-optimal build.
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I think you guys are missing the OP's point.
Being able to contribute outside of one-on-one arena combat, is not sup-optimal. In many setting fights on boats occur. being able to not fall off the boat and drown is a good choice. I don't think I have ever had a campaign where we didn't get a fight or chase scene on horseback.
If you can't do anything other than straight combat, I would call that a very sub-optimal build.
and yet it seems most people build only for combat and usually a particular type of combat. Then if you offer up free flavor choices like extra skills for profession or crafts you get someone who will dump them into something that really isn't what you were trying to get them to do, like the arcanist taking a craft that is only so they can make certain magic items.....oh well....
Kydeem I kind of liked where this thread was going. I don't care how far out of the left field it is. I think more PCs should take longswords.
I hate it when people suggest a good rolepay character has to have ranks in Profession. It's a stupid skill with only one mechanical use - making money.
Profession could also be used to justify a synergy bonus with, say, Knowledge checks and Diplomacy checks. I had a PC with Profession (boating) who used a Profession skill check to oppose a sea hag's attempt to upset the boat he and the other PCs were in while crossing the hag's watery lair. That's more uses than just making money, and that's just off the top of my head.
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Profession boating IS useful. Craft haberdashery is very unlikely to come in handy. Maybe on Sunder attempts against bad James Bond villains.
@ Arioreo: Aside from some general knowledge regarding a profession, the skill can only be used to make money. As a DM, I'd be much more inclined to do away with the skill and roleplay those sorts of things. If a player has a background in a profession, why make them roll for something they ought to know? If you ask me it's unnecessary. Not everything has to be left to the dice-gods.
@ Spes Magna Mark: If your group is interested in finding other uses for the skill, that's cool. I'd be more inclined to consider the skill if it had more uses - but as is, according to the description given in the books, it doesn't really govern much outside of making money.
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cranewings, I suspect a loud and clear message is being sent from the players and you're not tuned to their channel.
By and large, people do what they want to do. If you set up a boating-heavy environment and your players don't pick up any skills, equipment, traits, feats, or other abilities that thematically fit in, they're telling you very clearly "we don't want to play sailors".
Same goes for horse cultures. It's great that you spend effort making some sort of unified setting but it seems pretty obvious to me that your players aren't interested.
Keep in mind that every choice that is made to merge into your setting does two key things:
1} It makes their PCs just like every else.
2} It deprives the player of yet another choice they would otherwise use to make their own build.
#1 is pretty serious. People play RPGs to get into fantasy... to play some sort of person that is interesting and unique. Players aren't interested in being Roman Legionnaire #5373 "only better". Players don't want to be Nameless Sailor "only knows how to rage".
#2 is also serious. We only get so many skills and feats. If I have to allocate a couple of those to being just like the unheroic normals around me, that gives me so much less material to make my character interesting.
I suggest that you embrace the concept that your PCs are outsiders when crafting adventures. Make your settings, but don't expect your players to conform. They are exceptional and unusual. Don't set them up for failure, set them up for using their abnormal talents to rise up in stature amongst their environments.
Finally, consider giving in-character opportunities for the outsider PCs to acquire local talets as bonus abilities. If they spend a few weeks amongst sailors, let them have a rank or two of Profession(sailor) for free. Or a weapon proficiency or Ride points or Mounted Combat or something appropriate. Don't take away their choices... let them earn more.
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I hate it when people suggest a good rolepay character has to have ranks in Profession. It's a stupid skill with only one mechanical use - making money.Profession could also be used to justify a synergy bonus with, say, Knowledge checks and Diplomacy checks. I had a PC with Profession (boating) who used a Profession skill check to oppose a sea hag's attempt to upset the boat he and the other PCs were in while crossing the hag's watery lair. That's more uses than just making money, and that's just off the top of my head.
Another mechanic for profession is making rolls to do things your profession might do.
So Profession sailor lets you make rolls on sailing a boat.
Profession Barrister lets you roll to make legal arguments in a courtroom (came up in one game).
Whatever that profession does you can make a roll to do it.
clerk (figure out filing system in the county clerks office so you can find a document) fisherman (aka survival on the ocean)
gambler (gambling, duh)
librarian (figure out where a book is placed in a dungeon's library)
midwife (birth babies, help with colicky babies)
miner (mine gold instead of killing goblins for it. check a mine for safety)
stable master (put your horse away and feed him)
soldier (clean your weapons, sharpen your weapons, every fighter should take this) trapper(aka find food in the woods)
woodcutter(roll for bonus to cut down trees or make trees into lumber)
That is just from the example list.
As far as the OP, I would just require that at least 1 skill point at 1st level be put into a profession. Maybe give a list of professions that would be useful in the game.
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Don't take away their choices... let them earn more.
Well said. This quote should go right up there with the maxims "Say 'Yes', or roll for it" and "Don't say 'No', say 'Yes, but . . .'"
Nothing wrong with having a variety of adventure settings. If the players choose not to invest in certain skills then that is their choice. Just like a warrior who chooses to not bring a variety of weapons when going into a dungeon. They can still succeed, but it may be more difficult.
Cranewing, your line about the PCs being "murderous hobos" nearly made my drink spurt forth from my nose. My wife's, too, once I read it to her.
*Best Columbo impression*
Just one more thing. I've always viewed having ranks in any skill or profession to mean that person is especially good at that/those things. I myself have no ranks in Profession: Carpenter, butI know how to use all the tools necessary. And I could make a table if I wanted to. Same with Acrobatics. I'm no seasoned jongleur, but I can juggle and tumble a bit. Lacking ranks in a skill does not make the task impossible. Merely very difficult.
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In my group this is rarely a issue. Most of the players will have their character know things. i can't remember the last time that someone didn't put at least a few points into swim and ride. It is not uncommon to see people take cooking, musical instrument and not be a bard etc. Maybe I am just lucky with my current group but they tend to round out their characters.
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I usually let Craft and Profession skills serve as a combination of Appraise and Perception for anything reasonably related to the skill.
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I hate it when people suggest a good rolepay character has to have ranks in Profession. It's a stupid skill with only one mechanical use - making money.Why do you see profession so limited?
This.
I love to reward players who take profession skills. One that comes right to memory is when PCs were searching a dockside warehouse for some macguffin in some crate, I let one of them use his profession/laborer skill check in place of a prodigiously lengthy search via a mundane perception check. After all, as a professional laborer he'd know how crates are organized in a warehouse, especially ho to differentiate piles of crates just offloaded from crates waiting to be loaded.
Not only did he get to have some use for an obscure skill, he ALSO saved the party tons of time by bypassing the search check time based on area (an entire warehouse) and degree of details involved (full of thousands of crates).
Well I'm currently planning to give my Cleric of Urgathoa a couple of ranks of Profession: Cook. Merely to tie in with his deities focus on gluttony (also because I cannot get the idea of Ned the Piemaker from Pushing Daisies out of my head!)
As I was outlining my character to the DM he gave me a dodgy look! Apparently he assumed I intended to cook people (Sweeny Todd style!) He may be a morally reprehensible cad who forces the dead back to a mockery of life to do his semi-evil bidding, but he has some standards you know!
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Profession boating IS useful. Craft haberdashery is very unlikely to come in handy. Maybe on Sunder attempts against bad James Bond villains.
In our games, the profession skills are used a lot because they can cover a lot of territory. To use your example-- I would allow a PC to make a craft (haberdashery) check to determine what region someone is from, what social rank they hold, etc. This could either be a roll by itself, or a bonus added to knowledge (local), knowledge (nobility), etc.
In a pinch, a player might be able to convince me to use a craft (haberdashery) roll to repair damaged leather armor.
Certainly, the skill could give a bonus to diplomacy when dealing with primitive cultures and/or creatures.
How about using the skill to make a disguise?
I like the craft and profession skills because they are so open-ended and can really encourage some creativity on the part of the players.
In a current game, we have a rogue with a high profession (herbalist) skill who has helped create antivenoms, preserved a freshly-killed boar so the party could use it as trail rations, and made pouches for the party to wear that kept a creature with the scent ability from tracking them.
To the OP: if you make it clear that these skills can be used to good effect during your games, the players are more likely to use them.
In my group this is rarely a issue. Most of the players will have their character know things. i can't remember the last time that someone didn't put at least a few points into swim and ride. It is not uncommon to see people take cooking, musical instrument and not be a bard etc. Maybe I am just lucky with my current group but they tend to round out their characters.
I'm sorry to say this is the exception, not the norm. But I rather like rounded out characters - making me a little less effective than the rest of the group. I was the second-best paladin at one point, causing me to retire the character - I really enjoyed him, but hated playing second-string within my own class.
In our newest campaign, a medieval-type world rife with Politics and lords, I took a rank of Profession (Merchant). The thought being (as the heir to a small fiefdom that specializes in trade), once I inherit the land and have to run it myself, It'll be helpful to know how to manage trade ventures, should I decide to handle a few personally.
The ranks I have also helped when we had to sneak into a town (as merchants), and I didn't even have to make Diplomacy for the guards, since I had the training and knowledge to actually do merchant-like things.
I enjoy such things, but most people in my group min-max a little to much for me to go off on a limb and create a truly balanced character (I don't even drop stats below ten 95% of the time). But I'm starting to care about it less and less, and just playing what I want.
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Another mechanic for profession is making rolls to do things your profession might do.
Problem is most of the things that you might roll these for are either so minute or rare that it doesn't matter anyway, or is already covered by an existing - more useful - skill. For example...
So Profession sailor lets you make rolls on sailing a boat.
This is the iconic example for the profession skill being used in this way. Sailing has been heralded as an example of an adventure-useful profession, but there are also no set DCs, so really it's a matter of setting the DCs based on the 5 (easy), 10 (fair), 15 (hard), 20 (very hard), 25 (near impossible), and 30 (impossible) markers; and most sailing DCs are probably only going to be about DC 5-15, with only stuff like successfully navigating a giant whirlpool in the middle of a hurricane while dodging tornadoes being somewhere about 30-40.
Most adventurers aren't going to buy their own ship unless they already are sailors, or will rely on a trusty NPC sailor, or will buy passage to somewhere. Only in very specific campaigns will you want more than a hired NPC to help you sail somewhere.
Profession Barrister lets you roll to make legal arguments in a courtroom (came up in one game).
Diplomacy, Bluff, and Knowledge skills also cover these things, and are more likely to be possessed by the party. Unless your character is a lawyer, again, this is something that is going to be more likely to be used by a hired NPC.
Whatever that profession does you can make a roll to do it.
clerk (figure out filing system in the county clerks office so you can find a document)
12th Level Paper Pusher? Lame.
fisherman (aka survival on the ocean)
Only if you're a deep sea fisher, which would also be a matter of sailing instead (so a profession makes this profession pointless).
gambler (gambling, duh)
Most gambling is negated by cantrips or a 1st level cleric spell. The magic the gathering card "Slight of Hand" sums it up nicely: Gambling with mages never is. Even then, games of pure chance don't get a benefit from profession roles because skill doesn't matter, and games that do use skill would be like Poker or Blackjack, and would probably use different professions anyway ('cause you can suck a poker and rock blackjack, or vice versa).
librarian (figure out where a book is placed in a dungeon's library)
Perception, or just check alphabetically, or by genre.
midwife (birth babies, help with colicky babies)
Heal.
miner (mine gold instead of killing goblins for it. check a mine for safety)
Knowledge Dungeoneering or Architecture & Engineering.
stable master (put your horse away and feed him)
We need a skill to feed our horse or put him away now?
Also, Handle Animal.soldier (clean your weapons, sharpen your weapons, every fighter should take this)
I'm sure actually being proficient with weapons means nothing. NO FIGHTER should have this. Anyone can clean and sharpen their weapons. That's grunt labor. You can buy a whetstone if you wanna roleplay it, but sheesh, this is just silly.
trapper(aka find food in the woods)
*cough* Survival *cough*
woodcutter(roll for bonus to cut down trees or make trees into lumber)
"I hit it with my axe" is about as far as cutting down trees goes. There's a reason big strong lumberjacks tend to be better at their job than wise old lumberjacks; and that's because the * 1.5 strength modifier on weapon damage means a heck of a lot more than the +1 Wisdom modifier for being older.
That is just from the example list.
As far as the OP, I would just require that at least 1 skill point at 1st level be put into a profession. Maybe give a list of professions that would be useful in the game.
Why not offer alternatives to having those skills? I mean, 90% of those listed here are either A) useless wastes of space and/or skill points, or B) should be commonly available on the cheap via hirelings and NPCs.
Need a librarian? Well if you're in a LIBRARY, they probably have one of those. If the library is sorted in a way that no one would understand (not sorted alphabetically, by author, by genre, etc), then your librarian skills don't mean jack unless you worked there anyway.
If you really want to encourage skill use and such, reward people who try to use random skills. Encourage people to dump an odd skill point into all kinds of stuff, and keep the DCs reasonably low as they should be. PCs shouldn't need to have godlike beermaking skills to taste that the beer being served at a party tastes more like it came from Calimshan instead of Luskan, so a DC 20 Perception check vs a DC 13-15 Profession (Brewer) might be a decent option.
Let people know that Pathfinder encourages skill dipping due to its class skill bonus, and that your campaign uses logical DCs, and not scaling DCs (as in DCs for mundane things usually cap at about 15); which rewards players for dumping stuff into random knowledge, profession, or other skills.
The biggest problem is that many GMs actively punish this sort of thinking by using stupidly high DCs for mundane things when a set DC isn't listed, or trying to scale DCs according to the party level. You shouldn't need 10 ranks in Profession (Herbalist) to tell the difference between flower A and flower B.
If you really want to encourage this sort of thing, revive 3.x Synergy bonuses and provide synergy bonuses for these sorts of things. Profession (Lumberjack)? Maybe it grants a +1 bonus to Strength checks at rank 1, 5, 10, 15, and 20. Profession (Herbalist)? Maybe it provides a +1 bonus to Craft (Alchemy) and Heal checks at rank 1, 5, 10, 15, and 20. Etc, etc, etc.
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I'm glad I never have these issues. I love that I have a group that wants to spend skill points into making their PCs "real" members of their society, we even have a Barrister in our current group, with Profession and all, and our Sorcereress owns a book store and has ranks in Profession:Coifer so she can do her friends hair before those big Gala events.
Not really. Because by the time maxed out ride skills would matter they've been replaced with other forms of transportation.
A character doesn't need ranks in Profession, Perform, etc. to feel rounded out. To suggest that investing ranks into them somehow makes a character more valid than another... well, sort of reminds me of this scene.
Okay I let my players build thier characters as they see fit and get a background that explains what they have done before they get to go out adventuring.If i want my pcs to gain certain skills I work the campagian so they get them. If they dont thats fine I use other skills that will work but those get hurt faster or lose out on items because it didnt seem to be expensive. DMs need to go with the flow with players like the players do with DMs.
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Where are these other uses detailed?
In the skill description:
You are skilled at a specific job. Like Craft, Knowledge, and Perform, Profession is actually a number of separate skills. You could have several Profession skills, each with its own ranks. While a Craft skill represents ability in creating an item, a Profession skill represents an aptitude in a vocation requiring a broader range of less specific knowledge. The most common Profession skills are architect, baker, barrister, brewer, butcher, clerk, cook, courtesan, driver, engineer, farmer, fisherman, gambler, gardener, herbalist, innkeeper, librarian, merchant, midwife, miller, miner, porter, sailor, scribe, shepherd, stable master, soldier, tanner, trapper, and woodcutter.
Check: You can earn half your Profession check result in gold pieces per week of dedicated work. You know how to use the tools of your trade, how to perform the profession's daily tasks, how to supervise helpers, and how to handle common problems. You can also answer questions about your Profession. Basic questions are DC 10, while more complex questions are DC 15 or higher.
Action: Not applicable. A single check generally represents a week of work.
Try Again: Varies. An attempt to use a Profession skill to earn income cannot be retried. You are stuck with whatever weekly wage your check result brought you. Another check may be made after a week to determine a new income for the next period of time. An attempt to accomplish some specific task can usually be retried.
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Problem is most of the things that you might roll these for are either so minute or rare that it doesn't matter anyway, or is already covered by an existing - more useful - skill. For example...Quote:
So Profession sailor lets you make rolls on sailing a boat.
This is the iconic example for the profession skill being used in this way. Sailing has been heralded as an example of an adventure-useful profession, but there are also no set DCs, so really it's a matter of setting the DCs based on the 5 (easy), 10 (fair), 15 (hard), 20 (very hard), 25 (near impossible), and 30 (impossible) markers; and most sailing DCs are probably only going to be about DC 5-15, with only stuff like successfully navigating a giant whirlpool in the middle of a hurricane while dodging tornadoes being somewhere about 30-40.Most adventurers aren't going to buy their own ship unless they already are sailors, or will rely on a trusty NPC sailor, or will buy passage to somewhere. Only in very specific campaigns will you want more than a hired NPC to help you sail somewhere.
Quote:
Profession Barrister lets you roll to make legal arguments in a courtroom (came up in one game).
Diplomacy, Bluff, and Knowledge skills also cover these things, and are more likely to be possessed by the party. Unless your character is a lawyer, again, this is something that is going to be more likely to be used by a hired NPC.Quote:
Whatever that profession does you can make a roll to do it.clerk (figure out filing system in the county clerks office so you can find a document)
12th Level Paper Pusher? Lame.
Quote:
fisherman (aka survival on the ocean)
Only if you're a deep sea fisher, which would also be a matter of sailing instead (so a profession makes this profession pointless).Quote:
gambler (gambling, duh)
Most gambling is negated by cantrips or a 1st level cleric spell. The magic the gathering card "Slight of Hand" sums it up nicely: Gambling with mages never is. Even then, games of pure chance don't get a benefit from profession roles because skill doesn't matter, and games that do use skill would be like Poker or Blackjack, and would probably use different professions anyway ('cause you can suck a poker and rock blackjack, or vice versa).Quote:
librarian (figure out where a book is placed in a dungeon's library)
Perception, or just check alphabetically, or by genre.Quote:
midwife (birth babies, help with colicky babies)
Heal.Quote:
miner (mine gold instead of killing goblins for it. check a mine for safety)
Knowledge Dungeoneering or Architecture & Engineering.Quote:
stable master (put your horse away and feed him)
We need a skill to feed our horse or put him away now?Also, Handle Animal.
Quote:
soldier (clean your weapons, sharpen your weapons, every fighter should take this)
I'm sure actually being proficient with weapons means nothing. NO FIGHTER should have this. Anyone can clean and sharpen their weapons. That's grunt labor. You can buy a whetstone if you wanna roleplay it, but sheesh, this is just silly.Quote:
trapper(aka find food in the woods)
*cough* Survival *cough*Quote:
woodcutter(roll for bonus to cut down trees or make trees into lumber)
"I hit it with my axe" is about as far as cutting down trees goes. There's a reason big strong lumberjacks tend to be better at their job than wise old lumberjacks; and that's because the * 1.5 strength modifier on weapon damage means a heck of a lot more than the +1 Wisdom modifier for being older.Quote:
That is just from the example list.As far as the OP, I would just require that at least 1 skill point at 1st level be put into a profession. Maybe give a list of professions that would be useful in the game.
Why not offer alternatives to having those skills? I mean, 90% of those listed here are either A) useless wastes of space and/or skill points, or B) should be commonly available on the cheap via hirelings and NPCs.Need a librarian? Well if you're in a LIBRARY, they probably have one of those. If the library is sorted in a way that no one would understand (not sorted alphabetically, by author, by genre, etc), then your librarian skills don't mean jack unless you worked there anyway.
If you really want to encourage skill use and such, reward people who try to use random skills. Encourage people to dump an odd skill point into all kinds of stuff, and keep the DCs reasonably low as they should be. PCs shouldn't need to have godlike beermaking skills to taste that the beer being served at a party tastes more like it came from Calimshan instead of Luskan, so a DC 20 Perception check vs a DC 13-15 Profession (Brewer) might be a decent option.
Let people know that Pathfinder encourages skill dipping due to its class skill bonus, and that your campaign uses logical DCs, and not scaling DCs (as in DCs for mundane things usually cap at about 15); which rewards players for dumping stuff into random knowledge, profession, or other skills.
The biggest problem is that many GMs actively punish this sort of thinking by using stupidly high DCs for mundane things when a set DC isn't listed, or trying to scale DCs according to the party level. You shouldn't need 10 ranks in Profession (Herbalist) to tell the difference between flower A and flower B.
I can't argue with your conclusions in the end re: DCs or requiring players to take a profession or craft. Most of your comments responding to mine really assume that certain situations will never come up in a game. Taking my library example. Suppose you broke into the library to steal a book or the library is in a dungeon and belongs to the BBEG. You can use perception I never disputed that but it would be cool to also use the one point in profession Librarian you took at 1st level.
The sailor example could be really useful if you find your hired crew dead. How often will that happen? Rarely. But sometimes it is fun to use stupid skills like ride or profession. I have points in ride and profession cook for my wizard. But every time I try to actually use them my DM looks at me like I am a weirdo for trying to actually use skills I have. It is emblematic of the general view of professions. i.e. oh you only take them for roleplaying reasons and never to be useful.
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I'm thinking to take out the following skills:
Appraise, Craft, Profession
and replace them with a combined skill:
Trade(x)
So you could have Trade(carpenter) or Trade(Blacksmith) or Trade(Innkeeper) or Trade(scribe).
It would be a more 'fuzzy' skill but would allow for more general use out of the skill point in my opinion.
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I'm thinking to take out the following skills:
Appraise, Craft, Professionand replace them with a combined skill:
Trade(x)So you could have Trade(carpenter) or Trade(Blacksmith) or Trade(Innkeeper) or Trade(scribe).
It would be a more 'fuzzy' skill but would allow for more general use out of the skill point in my opinion.
I love it. Yoinks.
Ashiel (I saw her name accidently) probably covered this but I will say it anyway. If the skills are not being used there is no reason to waste resources on them. You can just say they did it in the past(background story).
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I've always enjoyed making settings that I feel make sense. Sometimes NPCs will be very similar. Most fighters I write up, who make up the majority of classed NPCs, are all of just a couple types depending on how the military operates.
A lot of them will be horsemen, shield users, sailors, or archers. In some settings / areas, all men will be proficient in horsemanship or sailing.
Then come the player characters - the murderous hobos - who can't perform any task or job a normal member of the society can be expected to. It's funny, because no matter how into the setting players seem to be, you can't get them to make the sub-optimal choices of taking on the settings style. At least when it comes to the people I play with.
It's funny because sometimes it becomes a problem, like when the party is on a boat or fighting alongside a greek phalanx or find themselves on the run from men on horseback when none of them can ride. I mean, they are always great in one on one arena DPS competitions against single other player characters, but that isn't ever what the game is about and that capacity doesn't really help.
Anyone else have this problem?
1) it make sense to you, Does it make sense to the players?
2) Do the players know there will be naval and horseback stuff?
3) If you want the PCs to be coming from specific molds and go in a specific direction with little to no choice; you should quit DM/GM'ing, it isn't for you... write novels or something but stay away from GM'ing.
The games cranewings likes to run are not the games most of us play. That is not a knock on CW.
With that said I think CW should refer to my previous post assuming nobody has asked the question yet.
PS:Which reminds me I need to read this thread.
This seems perfectly relevant:
paizo.com/traits
The first incarnation of [traits] appeared ... disguised as six new feats that your new character could take (we recommended that GMs allow players to pick one of these six as a bonus feat). These new feats were more than just additional tricks and powers, though; they were crafted to infuse newly created characters with built-in links to the then brand-new realm of Varisia.
You could make locale specific skills/abilities (like sailing, horseback riding, or weapons training) additional feats that players get for free. They're designed as slight boosts, not game breakers.
I hate it when people suggest a good rolepay character has to have ranks in Profession. It's a stupid skill with only one mechanical use - making money.
Until that situation where the PCs find themselves on a ship out to sea and need someone with Profession(sailor) to get them back to port in one piece...
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I have to say in regards to some of the profession skills or craft skills it comes down to how people prefer to play their characters. I myself generally take a craft or two. I even take profession or perform sometimes. Usually I do it because I have a background that it fits oh so perfectly for.
Currently I run a game once a week and another day I get to play and GM depending on whose turn as GM it is. My Tuesday game has a player with Profession: Priest because he wanted it. He has never really boosted it, but he used it twice. The first time was to avoid a major battle I had set up for once they emerged from the temple of his deity that he and the group were reclaiming from a tyrant who had ransacked it and killed many within. He preached to the Tyrant's soldiers and with the group's help they converted them all to his deity.
The second time was an in party issue. He tends to use it to do public speaking frequently.
With all that said when this campaign restarts I may use another poster's idea of granting bonus points at each level to use in a profession, craft, or perform. I'll have to think on a reasonable amount to grant.
I do grant free points for extraordinary rolls. Like the mountain lion based fighter who rolled three 20s to cook a meal. He did later on and got more bonus points. Before those two incidents he had no ranks in any craft skill. Since Craft and perform can be used untrained I allow it. Rolls like the fighter got grant auto points in it as by the dice you are apparently a natural at it.
Until that situation where the PCs find themselves on a ship out to sea and need someone with Profession(sailor) to get them back to port in one piece...
See, I think that a skill ought to govern sailing or maneuvering vehicles. Namely, Pilot. But then again, other peoples' games...
My Tuesday game has a player with Profession: Priest because he wanted it. He has never really boosted it, but he used it twice. The first time was to avoid a major battle I had set up for once they emerged from the temple of his deity that he and the group were reclaiming from a tyrant who had ransacked it and killed many within. He preached to the Tyrant's soldiers and with the group's help they converted them all to his deity.
Sounds more like a Diplomacy check. Granted, a synergy bonus might be applicable, as some people have suggested with Profession skills.
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What it comes down to though in any event is house-rules. Every anecdote I've read so far has come down to GM-fiat. Which is cool; that's how the game is run. Still, doesn't lend much credit to the skill when uses for it must be invented on the spot. Especially when many of these uses seem to step on the toes of other skills (see above).
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There are a number of useful professions for PCs to take, that aren't necessarily covered by other skills:
Sailor - probably the most useful. You get navigation, rope use, and ability to handle watercraft
Fisherman - you get the above, plus familiarity with nets and knowledge of ocean ecology
Soldier - You know military organization, chain of command, etc. Useful for scouting out enemy armies and putting together militias. You know how to find and hire mercenaries, etc.
Scribe or clerk - you know how to research documents, you're good at finding things in libraries and you're probably good at reading old maps and figuring out foreign filing systems, etc.
Cook or Chef - you can prepare delicious meals with odd ingredients, identify exotic herbs or spices, figure out good ways to hide the taste of poisons, ration food more effectively, etc
Blacksmith - shoe horses, minor repairs to arms and armor, identify various metals, possibly other materials science, create metal tools, etc
I'm sure there are others as well.
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Let us suppose that you approach a blacksmith's apprentice. He has an average intelligence (10 - 11) and 4 ranks in Craft (arms and armor). You ask the young man "Could you craft a chain shirt for me?" To which, he replies "Why yes, my master has taught me enough that I could fashion an effective chain shirt for you."
Now let us suppose that you approach another apprentice at another place and another time. He has an average intelligence (10 - 11) but has been less than diligent. Much to the dismay of his master, he has no ranks in Craft (arms and armor). You ask the young man "Could you craft a chain shirt for me?" To which, he replies "Certainly. I haven't studied particularly hard but I'm smart enough to understand the basics. It might take me a bit longer but I could do it if I wanted to. But I don't want to."
Apprentice A tried hard to do what he thought he should, only later as he made the transition into adulthood did he realize that you can't please everyone all the time. He leaves his master behind and becomes an adventurer. A player character with this background has a logical reason for having ranks in a craft skill.
Apprentice B was always a daydreamer. It was clear to him, even at a young age, that he was meant for more. He was strong, skilled with a sword, athletic, and brave. Over time those around him begin to see it too. His destiny clearly lay elsewhere. As he enters into adulthood he becomes an adventurer. A player character with this background has a logical reason for NOT having ranks in a craft skill.
The OP has expressed a desire for players to take sub-optimal choices in order to better fit into society. My question would be then, why does Apprentice B not fit into your world? Why does being sub-optimal make you somehow fit in better?