Player Characters Can't Do Anything


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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This is going to be long because I combined two posts into one.

Ashiel wrote:

The soldiers have a 7 Intelligence and Charisma for several major reasons.

  • Because they are humans and have a well-rounded skill set without it (notice they get 3 skill points per level due to favored class and human racial).
  • Intelligence 7 isn't well rounded. If you want to make them well rounded then use the standard array of 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, and 8. You should use the table listed here for well rounded stats. Why did you assume they had to be humans? What if you instead made them of other races from the CRB? I will concede that the example foot soldier as Intelligence 8, but they are the backbone and not leadership.

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  • Because they are professional soldiers and have little need for it. The difference between them and anyone else is only 10%, and doesn't affect their capabilities much at all. They are hardly mentally handicapped. You don't have to have a particularly good education to swing a sword.
  • You don't necessarily need a good education to swing a sword but you declared them all to be rather stupid. They are as "smart" as minotaurs. Just slightly smarter than ettins. These creatures are not known for their high levels of intellect and in fact are often known for not being very bright (cunning, sure but that's Wisdom).

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  • As soldiers, their individuality is beaten out of them. They get along fine with each other because they all have low Charisma, but are generally off-putting to most civilians, having been used to military life (which seems exceptionally accurate when compared to the marines that live with me in reality).
  • If they are conscripts, they're individuality isn't beaten out of them. They fight out of fear or duty, but they aren't regular soldiers. Do you want them to be conscripts or full time soldiers?

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  • It makes them stronger. Due to their low emphasis on mental statistics beyond the practical Wisdom (perception, common sense, whatever), they are able to devote more of themselves to their physical training, resulting in the 14, 14, 13 array, which helps them survive more on the battlefield than being able to tell you the name of the Duke's Daughter Francine Delemaris Shoffrand the Fourth, which might be common Knowledge (DC 10) to most people, but they might actually need to probe their memory (45% chance) to remember all of it.
  • Again, are these trained soldiers or are the conscripts?

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    7 Intelligence isn't mentally retarded. The 3.x system was designed under the assumption that Int 3 is high enough to not only be a sentient morality considering being, but also high enough to have a varied skill set and function in society (especially if your other mental stats aren't completely hosed).

    So? I understand that you didn't give them 3s, but honestly you dropped their Intelligence to the point where it is easily argued they are idiots. They have the lowest scores they can start with in Point Buy (no core races reduce Intelligence).

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    Anyway, having grown up in an area full if military personnel, having family that's military, having friends that are military, and literally living with a marine in my own home, I'm no stranger to just how tough the military is. I get to hear a lot about the army, the marines, and in my uncle's case the navy, and a friend of mine was in the air force for about about a decade.

    I grew up in a military family. I can go back to before the Revolutionary War for my family history when it comes to servicemen and women. It wasn't until I served that I realized that I only had a small picture. With my particular duties, I was considered "elite." At the time, the only units in the Army that wore berets were elite units. That was our badge of honor. Until then, I didn't understand near as much as I thought I did. Experience is a huge factor.

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    Thing is, I'm under no illusion that they are super humans. They're people. That's actually what makes them so damned impressive is the fact they are just people. They're trained in body and mind to be great, but they die just like everyone else. One of my friends who has sat in this very room with me and played on the X-Box died in action recently, despite his armor, his training, and everything. Why? Because he was a human being. He was a person, and he wasn't a super hero. He was a living, breathing, thinking, bleeding man.

    I'm sorry to hear about your friend. I will always be grateful for sacrifices like this. You are right too, that we are/were ordinary people with extraordinary training. There are/were many that surpassed the threshold of what it means to be "normal." Take a look at Spartans (not the ones from 300, while a great movie, not what I'm talking about). Look at French Legionnaires. Heck, look at Marine Force Recon. I'm willing to throw some Teddy Roosevelt in there but that's only because I think he could kick Chuck Norris's ass. Genghis Khan is another. There's also Audie Murphy. These people were above the standards you are using. I'm just looking at what they really accomplished, not the embellished stories.

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    So don't talk to me like real people are somehow equivalent to high level D&D characters. Just don't do it. I know the military is full of tough men and women. I get that. But they're not superheroes. They're not even comic book style mundanes like batman, dodging bullets and beating up badguys with guns with their fists and utility belt.

    I used the "common NPCs." No matter how much you don't like it, these are the common examples. Pathfinder worlds are very different than our own. Those who survive many battles are often promoted and these will be higher level. It's the nature of the system. You don't have to like it, but that's precisely how it works.

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    In a fantasy army you can have anything you damn well can imagine. If I wanted, everyone in my fantasy world could all be demigods. Maybe any army worth its salt has a terrasque waiting under their military base for the time in which it can go destroy Tokyo. Maybe things like gorgons, wraiths, manticore, chimeras, and other mythical beasts could be common sights on the battlefield. Maybe armies of iron golems march against swarms of the undead, while 20th level liches do battle in the skies above.

    I intentionally did not bring in anything beyond what one could find in a standard Pathfinder metropolis. I did that intentionally. I knew that you didn't mean for a 10th level character to be able to take on any 10k unit army. I knew that you meant an army comprised of the core races or their equivalent. I assume an army of orcs would be acceptable as would an army of goblins but not an army of 10k ogres.

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    But those aren't normal people. Those are fantastical super heroes. I'm talking about an army of mundanes. The guys who you might actually be able to draw a parallel to in reality. Sure, they have access to magic, and potions, and have strategies for really screwing with most foes with little to no effort. But at some point, you get a big bad that's big and bad enough that you just need another super hero.

    They aren't super heroes by the standards in Pathfinder. "Common" means that they are the normals in the world. The book defines the NPCs I used as "common" therefore they would have to be "normal."

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    I didn't include the leadership for the army for these reasons.

    Simplicity. It's easier to present the bulk of the army.

    I included them because their impact on the effectiveness of the military. Without leaders, the "army" is merely a hoard.

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    Leaders generally aren't going to be stronger, but may be diverse.

    In these types of armies, they are going to be stronger. They are the ones that survived. They are the ones who managed to get enough XP to actually level. This will give them diversity but also more capability in their class.

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    Most squads will be lead by one guy in the group with a similar skill set to the others, with a chain of command for if that guy goes down. Their actual statistics aren't generally going to be stronger than 3rd level if they are still relatively normal people.

    That fit exactly what I did for teams, squads, and platoons. No problems here.

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    If you wanted to be very detailed, most leaders would probably be multiclassed. For example, a 3rd level leader might be a 3rd level Expert, since that puts them a little bit tougher than your 2nd level warrior, but gives them a more potent Will save, and a much wider skill set (which would likely include Diplomacy for keeping your troops fighting when things look bad). Even with an Intelligence of 7, such a commander would have about 15 skill points to spend, which means he could be a trained in up to 15 individual skills with competent ability, or specialized in several (having a +5 Diplomacy after 3 ranks makes you pretty good at inspiring your fellow 7 Charisma soldiers).

    The leaders would likely be Aristocrat/Experts or just Experts, with many of them probably versed in logistical combat strategies, and having a varied skill set as well. Most would be capable of fighting well enough to be considered soldiers themselves or even veterans (since aristocrats and adepts have a 3/4 BAB, any 2nd level one is easily the equivalent to a 1st level soldier, and any 3rd level one is a 2nd level soldier, etc).

    Those aren't leaders in combat. Leaders for most of these armies would see battle, and often. They wouldn't be REMFs (Rear Echelon Mother F..ers). Besides, most of the leaders I used were still level 3.

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    If you want, I can build the whole army if that's desired, complete with stats. However, most of my point was made a long time ago. A 10th level ranger, without hyperspecialization, is stealthy enough to be unobservable by most any mundane character, tough enough to survive through skirmishes against groups of the army easily enough (by groups, I mean if he was attacking a camp, he probably wouldn't fight the entire army in one solid mass, because they would be split by tents, wagons, etc), and his spells can remove large numbers of his foes, and allow him to completely evade animals.

    Your ranger would have to be hyperspecialized, which would be fine if that is what he was specialized to do. I wouldn't have any problem with that. However, know that once he fails to take out enough of the army in the first skirmish, unless the soldiers have Intelligence 7 or so, they should be able to figure out how to improve their defenses. The ranger's spells are not going to remove large numbers of foes. Remember that your Level 10 ranger has two 1st level spells, one 2nd level spell, and only bonus 3rd level spells. He would have to have a Wisdom of 16 to have a bonus 3rd level spell, but since he isn't hyperspecialized, I wouldn't expect that. The most devastating spell in his arsenal (core only by your definition) is Spike Growth. He has a caster level of 7, which gives him seven 20-squares. Enough to probably seriously injure or kill 28 soldiers. He can do this once per day. It would not be silent.

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    But people continue to insist on adding superheroes to battles. This isn't a strategic or leadership problem, it's a capabilities problem. The maximum potential is based on level, and when your maximum potential cannot exceed the minimum potential of your adversary, you are at an extreme disadvantage. So much so that with proper planning on the side of your opponent, your forces have only one option: get their own superheroes, or bunker down*.
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    You are the only one using the term super heroes. The reason why we are telling you that you are wrong is because the people who wrote the game have said that you are wrong. No matter how often you use the term, you are still wrong. Even the CRB assumes that the leaders are higher levels. It doesn't say how much higher, but looking at example NPCs, they do assume that some are higher than level 5.

    Also, like I have said, less than 1% of that army I built was over level 4. If your hypothetical ranger can deal with 25% of them reasonably, I would be very impressed. I stand by that.

    Silver Crusade

    Bob_Loblaw wrote:
    When I look at a Pathfinder army, I look at historical armies and how they were organized. I also look at what the books say should be expected. Sure, there are differences. Apparently Galt and Cheliax (I don't play in Golarian) have very different armies. That's to be expected, being different types of nations.

    Cheliax is a powerful Lawful (evil) nation. It's military is strong on land and sea.

    Galt is a former province of Cheliax that is essentially a french revolution that never ends. Forever Revolution is it's tagline in the guide.

    Taldor is an ancient empire of which Cheliax, Galt, Andoran and several other areas were once part. It is old and rich but decadent.

    Contributor

    Removed some posts. Please post civilly.


    Yes, I have pointed out to the players before, just how powerful Cheliax is, if its army or navy comes down on you.

    E.g. one high level swashbuckler thought he could take a heavy Chelaxian vessel, filled with loot, but also with plenty of pikemen. He died really quickly, so did his crew. A few pcs escaped.

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