I like playing Humans for the feat and personality but it seems that the other races have more to offer a PC. Your thoughts....
By core, it's an average race at worst. Once you take into the other products that give it different Favored Class bonuses (Advanced Players Guide), it quickly becomes one of the best races for any class. They're the only race that has an alternate favored class bonus for every base class, and are especially fantastic for castys.
+2 to the statistic of your choice
Medium Sized
+1 skill point per level
+1 feat at first level (any feat you meet the prerequisites for)
Humans make a good choice for any class out there.
Unlike most of the other races there is no role a human can't do. This alone makes them far from being the weakest race.
Depends on the class.
Often humans are regarded as the strongest race for a class, because of two things:
The extra feat
The flexible ability bonus
Yes, half-orc and half-elfs get that too, but if I have to chose between an extra feat I can pick and Skill Focus... I'm going to take the extra feat.
The low-light vision the half-elfs get is nice of course, so is the immunity/resist to some spells, but both is quite situational.
Other races often disqualify themselves against humans because they don't have an ability bonus in the right stat. Sure +2 dex and int is nice, but if you want to play a Wis or Cha focused class for example, it doesn't really help you that much.
That said, all races can usually be played, but often humans seem to be the most flexible.
Also not to mention one big thing: Alternate favored class bonuses for humans often trump every other race by ALOT. I'll take 1 spell known on my bard or sorcerer over 1 skill/HP every time.
They get an extra feat, which already puts them ahead of many other races.
I wouldn't say they are the weakest, but for some reason it's the Core race I dislike the most.
Are you serious?
Off the top of my head humans make the best sorcerers by FAR and the best druids.
Sure they don't make better wizards than elves but humans can make pretty good wizards also.
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Many builds are feat-starved, especially @ low levels. And few races actually offer much; dwarves are by far the "best", but often are overlooked unless you want a Wis-based class (as sturdy as a dwarves fighter is, not getting +2 Str kinda sucks for fighting types).
Halflings are widely regarded as the least powerful race (poor bonuses, slow, not really many builds that call for Cha). Half-orcs got toothy now... before that there was never a call for them over humans. Elves are like dwarves... solid enough bonuses, but you really need a dex or int build, and are usually spending extra to buy your Con back.
My characters tend towards humans, since I play PFS and want to be "online" with my feats earlier rather than later.
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The way I see the races (unless I have a specific RP reason to be a specific race) is this:
The "non-flexible" races (the ones with specific stat adjustments) tend to have racial traits focused toward a specific trope or type of concept. If you happen to be playing that exact thing, then the corresponding race will suit you best.
But if you want to play any other concept/build ever, then the non-flexible races are going to have stat mods that work against you and racial features that are irrelevant (a bonus to CL checks doesn't help a fighter, for instance).
So for most characters (unless you're really into playing "the classics" over and over again - more power to ya) you're then left with Humans, Half-Elves, or Half-Orcs.
Half-Orcs have an issue similar to that of the Non-Flexibles, in that despite the flexibility of the stat mod, the racial abilities are definitely geared toward a specific type of character that you might not want to play. There are a few options in the alternate racial features in the APG, but they're still a bit restrictive.
Half-Elves, however, have abilities that are much more universally desirable. Some of the APG's replacements for the free Skill Focus are amazing: Dual-Minded (untyped +2 to Will saves) and Ancestral Arms (free weapon proficiency - even exotic - without meeting prereqs). So basically, Half-Elves have three different feats (or feat-equivalents) to choose from.
So when I'm choosing a race, I'm looking at:
Human: Feat+Skill Rank
vs
Half-Elf: Limited selection of bonus feat + Elven Immunities + Low-light vision, etc.
For me, it's usually a toss-up between Half-Elf and Human. I would call them the (overall) best races.
The way I see the races (unless I have a specific RP reason to be a specific race) is this:
The "non-flexible" races (the ones with specific stat adjustments) tend to have racial traits focused toward a specific trope or type of concept. If you happen to be playing that exact thing, then the corresponding race will suit you best.
But if you want to play any other concept/build ever, then the non-flexible races are going to have stat mods that work against you and racial features that are irrelevant (a bonus to CL checks doesn't help a fighter, for instance).
So for most characters (unless you're really into playing "the classics" over and over again - more power to ya) you're then left with Humans, Half-Elves, or Half-Orcs.
Half-Orcs have an issue similar to that of the Non-Flexibles, in that despite the flexibility of the stat mod, the racial abilities are definitely geared toward a specific type of character that you might not want to play. There are a few options in the alternate racial features in the APG, but they're still a bit restrictive.
Half-Elves, however, have abilities that are much more universally desirable. Some of the APG's replacements for the free Skill Focus are amazing: Dual-Minded (untyped +2 to Will saves) and Ancestral Arms (free weapon proficiency - even exotic - without meeting prereqs). So basically, Half-Elves have three different feats (or feat-equivalents) to choose from.
So when I'm choosing a race, I'm looking at:
Human: Feat+Skill Rank
vs
Half-Elf: Limited selection of bonus feat + Elven Immunities + Low-light vision, etc.For me, it's usually a toss-up between Half-Elf and Human. I would call them the (overall) best races.
+1
Humans do feel gimped in that their racial bonus block is small compared to the other races except the other tend do tend to be modeled toward a specific role. You can customize this a bit with the APG racial options but still, you can't modify that +2 to Dex and Int with the -2 to Con (Elf) in anyway and that somewhat sandboxes what can be done with a character of that race. There are argument for either side but at the end of the day, it takes fewer points (from point by stat gen) to create "good" scores for classes that cater to whatever the race may naturally excel at. You can min/max easier or even generalize a bit without being as detrimental to the class you're trying to play. Also, I've seen people all but forsake a races natural abilities to have "not as suck" scores and jack up all the others to accommodate. I would never do this, because it feels I'm gimping my potential in addition to forgoing the racial abilities that enhance the class I'm trying to play.
Also, it does sorta bite that you have to spend feats as a human to change this at all. Genetic anomalies happen. Why can't a human have low light vision naturally? I understand there are some balance concerns but is low light really all that powerful? That's just one thing, but I think there should be options, is all.
Now, the inverse of that, is that why focus on some goofy situational ability when you can focus on your class and make it even more awesome. Something the human is ideal for. :D
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Well I happen to think humans are one of the best races out there.
+2 to the statistic of your choice
Medium Sized
+1 skill point per level
+1 feat at first level (any feat you meet the prerequisites for)
They are as others up thread pointed out, one of the most flexible races. They can excel at any class they want to.
Also the +1 skill point per level, I don't think any of the other races have a "feature" that keeps on giving throughout their carrier.
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Why can't a human have low light vision naturally? I understand there are some balance concerns but is low light really all that powerful? That's just one thing, but I think there should be options, is all.
This spell makes a nice potion.
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I'm biased to the half elf, but humans come in second.* They are extremely flexible as others have noticed, and that +1 SP comes in handy for skill starved classes.
@Jiggy Thanks for reminding me about dual minded, I've been worried about my rogue's will save (from the PFS thread) trading Skill focus for dual minded definately would help.
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Count me in the pile of human being the best race.
Maybe if you have a GM that allows all the Bestiary races for PCs (and I never have) it's too easy to find something that outshines the human for most characters, but using just the core races I'd pick human most of the time.
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@Jiggy Thanks for reminding me about dual minded, I've been worried about my rogue's will save (from the PFS thread) trading Skill focus for dual minded definately would help.
And it even stacks with Iron Will. :D
Many builds are simply impossible if you don't play a human.
I wouldn't go that far, but humans are definitely a strong race.
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All you do is play a human with a mental bonus, die, then roll the dice on reincarnation. You get to keep the skill points, feat, and higher mental stat, and have great potential for a good physical stat and racial bonuses to boot. Sure you get no more skill points from skilled, but that's all you lose there. And if you don't like it 1000 GP and 1 level of sucking is all a 2nd reincarnation costs :).
For building a PC? No, for some classes they are the strongest. For others they are at least average to good. As a race existing in a campaign? Well...flip open a bestiary and you'll start to wonder just how the core races are the ones in control.
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I keep making human character, just because that bonus feat is worth its weight in gold for many classes. Obviously, that isn't the case for fighters or some other classes that get bonus feats, but my bard and barbarian were quite happy to get that bonus feat up front.
(Sarc) How much does a feat weigh? (/sarc)
I think they are the best race. I know players who won't use any other race which gets old after a while.
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Count me in the pile of human being the best race.
Maybe if you have a GM that allows all the Bestiary races for PCs (and I never have) it's too easy to find something that outshines the human for most characters, but using just the core races I'd pick human most of the time.
the only truly overpowered bestiary races are stuff along the lines of the drow noble and svirfneblin.
For Example, The Ifrit fire sorcerer may have a higher effective casting stat, but the human sorcerer will know more spells
The Aasimaar cleric may have bonuses to wisdom and charisma with no penalty. but channeling isn't so important for a cleric, and strength would be a better stat than charisma to invest in.
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They're ok. But as I am human IRL I don't really want to pretend to be one.
Count me in the pile of human being the best race.
Maybe if you have a GM that allows all the Bestiary races for PCs (and I never have) it's too easy to find something that outshines the human for most characters, but using just the core races I'd pick human most of the time.
the only truly overpowered bestiary races are stuff along the lines of the drow noble and svirfneblin.
For Example, The Ifrit fire sorcerer may have a higher effective casting stat, but the human sorcerer will know more spells
The Aasimaar cleric may have bonuses to wisdom and charisma with no penalty. but channeling isn't so important for a cleric, and strength would be a better stat than charisma to invest in.
The point isn't that the bestiary races are truly overpowered; the point is that with a much wider variety of races to pick from, you're more likely to find a race with +2 to two stats that you care about and -2 to a stat that you don't care about.
For some characters you can do this with the core races; for example, if I'm a non-melee bard, I care about my CHR and CON and I don't care about my STR, so gnome looks pretty good. For all of the characters where the stat setup of elf/dwarf/halfling/gnome doesn't give you +2 to two stats you care about and -2 to a stat you don't care about, the human (and half-elf/half-orc, to some degree) setup of +2 to whatever stat you want and no negatives looks better, especially when you factor in that their racial abilities/penalties tend to be better for most characters as well.
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they have races with synergistic modifiers. attributes aren't the only thing that matter. i'm sure there are other reasons to choose a race. the bestiary races have very little besides attributes and maybe a limited use spell like ability or limited resistance of some kind that will become irrelevant by level 5.
being able to choose your bonuses is pretty big, especially when you can capitolize on most of the best favored class bonuses in the game.
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Humans are by far the best race. The extra feat and skill points are both powerful and flexible.
I believe humans make half elves redundant.
Bonus Feat is far better than Adaptability (skill focus).
Skilled is far better than Keen Senses and Multitalented combined.
That only leaves Low-Light Vision and the Elven Immunities which still don't make up for the deficit. (I didn't mention Elf Blood and speak Elven because they're not worth mentioning.)
If I were playing in a home game with the stats die generated, or a 25+ point buy, I would be more comfortable with anything but a human. But 95% of my games are Society Play, and with a 20-pt buy under Society rules it's difficult to ignore what a bonus feat and skill point bring to a build.
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Every time I start to build a non-human, I start looking at my feat progression and wonder why I'm not making a human. Early access to upper tier feats is a major factor in character selection. Its not as big of a deal for sorcs and wizards, but for everyone else it more or less determines my race.
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Humans are by far the best race. The extra feat and skill points are both powerful and flexible.
I believe humans make half elves redundant.
Bonus Feat is far better than Adaptability (skill focus).
Skilled is far better than Keen Senses and Multitalented combined.
That only leaves Low-Light Vision and the Elven Immunities which still don't make up for the deficit. (I didn't mention Elf Blood and speak Elven because they're not worth mentioning.)
Half elves and Half Orc have built in cool roleplay potential and are still among the strongest races. Tanis Half Elf for example remains perhaps the single coolest character in D&D/Pathfinder literature, in spite of that cluster frack that were the 3.5 half-whatevers.
Half Elves are, hands down better--
Bards after 2nd level due to adaptablity/versatile performance
Summoners
Definately better skill monkeys if a single skill is key to the build, such as Acrobatics or Perception.
Still, Humans are very good.
Humans suffer from no Constitution penalty, and many have a Constitution bonus. Ergo, not the weakest race.
@Kerney
About half elf bards: why do you say that?
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@Kerney
About half elf bards: why do you say that?
While I don't necessarily agree that they're the best bards, I can see where Kerney's going with that one.
Half elves get skill focus. Throw that on performance (oratory), for instance, and choose that as your performance type for versatile performance at level 2, and all of a sudden, that skill focus counts as a +3 on both diplomacy and sense motive (which is now based on cha, not wis). That's a very nice bonus, especially in an RP heavy campaign. But a human could easily just take Skill Focus with their bonus feat and do the exact same thing, just without the other half elf stuff.
However, if you're going for more combat focus, rather than RP focus, then going human for an extra combat related feat makes for better combat optimization. For instance, if you're playing an archer bard, wouldn't you rather have both Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot at 1st level, instead of waiting until 3rd level to get RS? When there are 5+ combat feats that enhance your primary offensive capability that way, being human puts you two levels ahead of any other race at picking up the entire feat chain that you're going for.
Humans are by far the best race. The extra feat and skill points are both powerful and flexible.
+1
In working on Ultimate Races playtest, they tried to make the race creation system both balanced AND prove that all the races are of equivelent strength. They couldn't do it. They could balance the creation system, but the glaring fact shown out that Humans are more powerful. It's the flexibility that puts them over the top. The conclusion was even that ultimatly the reason to not play a Human is for the RP.
On the flip side, worst race they found was indeed, to quote Ryan Costello
...Poor little gnome.
I assume other (non-core) races breed more slowly?
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On topic: Humans are one of the strongest.
If you read about grippli in bestiary two they reproduce really quickly. In like one year. Half orcs also are a little faster.
Humans are more powerful. It's the flexibility that puts them over the top. The conclusion was even that ultimatly the reason to not play a Human is for the RP.This I flat out disagree with. Humans are powerful, but they are not the end all, be all for every possible build. An elven wizard is at least as good as a human one in the vast majority of builds, a half-elf is generally as good or better than a human any time you want to use eldritch heritage, etc.
However, while I do not believe that humans are blatantly the most powerful race, they are definitely the most versatile race. The number of situations where a human will wish he was a member of a different race are very small (mounted characters being the only one that comes to mind).
In a world shared with elves and half-elves, the human will wish he was a different race by about age 50.
The way I see the races (unless I have a specific RP reason to be a specific race) is this:
The "non-flexible" races (the ones with specific stat adjustments) tend to have racial traits focused toward a specific trope or type of concept. If you happen to be playing that exact thing, then the corresponding race will suit you best.
But if you want to play any other concept/build ever, then the non-flexible races are going to have stat mods that work against you and racial features that are irrelevant (a bonus to CL checks doesn't help a fighter, for instance).
So for most characters (unless you're really into playing "the classics" over and over again - more power to ya) you're then left with Humans, Half-Elves, or Half-Orcs.
Half-Orcs have an issue similar to that of the Non-Flexibles, in that despite the flexibility of the stat mod, the racial abilities are definitely geared toward a specific type of character that you might not want to play. There are a few options in the alternate racial features in the APG, but they're still a bit restrictive.
Half-Elves, however, have abilities that are much more universally desirable. Some of the APG's replacements for the free Skill Focus are amazing: Dual-Minded (untyped +2 to Will saves) and Ancestral Arms (free weapon proficiency - even exotic - without meeting prereqs). So basically, Half-Elves have three different feats (or feat-equivalents) to choose from.
So when I'm choosing a race, I'm looking at:
Human: Feat+Skill Rank
vs
Half-Elf: Limited selection of bonus feat + Elven Immunities + Low-light vision, etc.For me, it's usually a toss-up between Half-Elf and Human. I would call them the (overall) best races.
+1
I like Half-Elves for Summoners because of the favored class bonus: + 1/4 to Eidolon's evolution pool. Evolutions are quite nice.
I like Half-Orcs for Ferocity if I can cast cure spells.
Obviously the other races are really good in specific builds: Elven Wizards, Halfing archer Bards, Dwarf Inquisitors, etc...
of the core races: Humans, half orcs and half elves can put +2 into strength, therefor humans are one of the strongest races, gnomes and halflings are the weakest. /smirk
Human is usually my typical race to make a build, unless I really want to play a different race, with one exception: stealth based characters. I usually use half-orc for that, having darkvision is worth a feat if I'm planning on being in the dark most of the time.