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So here is the challenge! Lets see a caster with a single round do more damage than RAGELANCEPOUNCE.
A Few Rules:
No summons. This is your spell, not some one or something elses.
No party members: IE, no you can't summon AM BARBARIAN, cast bless, and count that for the win.
Familiars and Animal Companions are OK if you're casting a spell that is either self only or to deliver a touch attack.
Level 20.
Goal, Kill AM BARBARIAN or any other RAGELANCEPOUNCE user before they can hit you with damage excessive of RAGELANCEPOUNCE.
You have 1 round, you are 30ft apart from target, and you can only justify a 2nd round if you can viably survive RAGELANCEPOUNCE on the first round without disabling the target.
Currently, No 3.5 material, unless the build for RAGELANCEPOUNCE uses 3.5 material.
So, who can pull it off?
So, who can pull it off?
From 30 ft. away are presuming some way to win initiative?
"I Wish..." and then deal with the consequences of asking the DM for something beyond the limits of a normal Wish.
But the real issue is that its unrealistic to expect to start in this situation. The whole issue is seeing it coming and actually getting to act before you've been obliterated. If you just assume that these issues magically have gone away (possibly due to a Wish spell?), the true complications have already disapeared.
This is a ridiculous suggestion that's really specific to dealing with this scenario... Contingency: Forcecage (barred) on yourself when someone comes within 15 feet of you. RAGELANCEPOUNCE can no longer use his lance on you. You now have a safe haven from which to cast spells you can dimension door in and out of. You can also hide behind it on the outside, blocking charges but not line of sight.
Edit2: To be more ridiculous, the Contingency specifically names AM, when he comes within 15 feet, Forcecage on yourself.
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"The Caster-Martial Disparity god pokes one of its innumerable heads in. It's very presence ripping the sanity from so called rational minds."
Answer: no one. You can't outdamage a martial class, that is why controller wizards are considered the best type of wizards.
This is a ridiculous suggestion that's really specific to dealing with this scenario... Contingency: Forcecage (barred) on yourself when someone comes within 15 feet of you. RAGELANCEPOUNCE can no longer use his lance on you. You now have a safe haven from which to cast spells you can dimension door in and out of. You can also hide behind it on the outside, blocking charges but not line of sight.
Two words: Spell Sunder. And your cage goes *poof*
Answer: no one. You can't outdamage a martial class, that is why controller wizards are considered the best type of wizards.
This is a ridiculous suggestion that's really specific to dealing with this scenario... Contingency: Forcecage (barred) on yourself when someone comes within 15 feet of you. RAGELANCEPOUNCE can no longer use his lance on you. You now have a safe haven from which to cast spells you can dimension door in and out of. You can also hide behind it on the outside, blocking charges but not line of sight.Two words: Spell Sunder. And your cage goes *poof*
But it stops the charge at a minimum and it doesn't waste the action. If the wizard loses initiative, forcecage uses up AM's first turn.
If the wizard wins initiative, he actually gets 2 turns.
But it stops the charge at a minimum and it doesn't waste the action. If the wizard loses initiative, forcecage uses up AM's first turn.Answer: no one. You can't outdamage a martial class, that is why controller wizards are considered the best type of wizards.
This is a ridiculous suggestion that's really specific to dealing with this scenario... Contingency: Forcecage (barred) on yourself when someone comes within 15 feet of you. RAGELANCEPOUNCE can no longer use his lance on you. You now have a safe haven from which to cast spells you can dimension door in and out of. You can also hide behind it on the outside, blocking charges but not line of sight.Two words: Spell Sunder. And your cage goes *poof*
Then you find yourself in the precarious position of being a few short feet from a barbarian with 15ft reach.
Then you find yourself in the precarious position of being a few short feet from a barbarian with 15ft reach.But it stops the charge at a minimum and it doesn't waste the action. If the wizard loses initiative, forcecage uses up AM's first turn.Answer: no one. You can't outdamage a martial class, that is why controller wizards are considered the best type of wizards.
This is a ridiculous suggestion that's really specific to dealing with this scenario... Contingency: Forcecage (barred) on yourself when someone comes within 15 feet of you. RAGELANCEPOUNCE can no longer use his lance on you. You now have a safe haven from which to cast spells you can dimension door in and out of. You can also hide behind it on the outside, blocking charges but not line of sight.Two words: Spell Sunder. And your cage goes *poof*
I'm not claiming to have it all worked out here, I'm just brainstorming. I have concretely proven it is possible to survive round 1. Also, Spell Sunder is usable once per rage. Having two more Forcecages available means that you can cast it more times than he can sunder it.
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Answer: no one. You can't outdamage a martial class, that is why controller wizards are considered the best type of wizards.
This is a ridiculous suggestion that's really specific to dealing with this scenario... Contingency: Forcecage (barred) on yourself when someone comes within 15 feet of you. RAGELANCEPOUNCE can no longer use his lance on you. You now have a safe haven from which to cast spells you can dimension door in and out of. You can also hide behind it on the outside, blocking charges but not line of sight.Two words: Spell Sunder. And your cage goes *poof*But it stops the charge at a minimum and it doesn't waste the action. If the wizard loses initiative, forcecage uses up AM's first turn.
If the wizard wins initiative, he actually gets 2 turns.
Actually, repeated {quickened cone of whatever, wall of X, and a move} is a viable tactic against AM, as the attack spell will disable him (no, I'm not using SoS/SoD on him until I take out BATTY BAT and/or get him out of rage via waves of exhaustion), the wall (or other you-can't-charge-me spell) will block RAGELANCE(NOITEREATIVEATTACKSONA)POUNCE, and the move means he can't even attack me this round because I'm out of reach.
Is BATTY BAT immune to fatigue and exhaustion?
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(Scratches head), okay, I missed the part about BATTY BAT. We should open up the rules enough to allow an equivalent mount/companion. 1 only though, and it cannot be a spell caster or a buff target. IF Batty Bat is attack in the RAGELANCEPOUNCE combo, then this companion should also be able to contribute at least as much as BATTY BAT does.
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Or, heck, teleport to the local judicial house and get a restraining order on the Barbarian to keep him more than 80' away from you.
Seoni has proven this a valid tactic.
Can't help you with the damage. But here's how I'd bust up AM BARBARIAN (if I won initiative).
Timestop with a Metamagic Rod of extend spell to ensure you get 4 rounds.
Minor Creation, using a dose of Black Lotus Extract, to fill a jug with 201 doses.
Cast invisibility on the jug.
Cast Project Image, so that your illusory copy is where you were, and balance the jug on AM BARBARIAN.
Greater Invisibility and hide (just in case he can see invis).
The copy of you will be casting ... hmmm we'll go with Solid Fog on AM BARB when time starts again.
AM BARBARIAN will RAGELANCEPOUNCE, causing the jug of contact poison to spill all over him (Fort DC 420, 1d6 CON per round for 6 rounds).
Average loss of 21 CON, and thus also 200hp.
During those 6 rounds, all you need to do is delay, which a casty can easily do with things like making an S-shaped wall of stone (3 barriers to bust through), or throwing a Cloudkill on AM BARBARIAN for laughs and more CON damage, then moving behind cover. He'll waste rounds looking for you among cover, concealment, barriers and so on, and attacking illusions, it's like a really fun game of tag.
When the poison has run it's course, you can finish with Extended Power Word Stun, Empowered Cloudkill + Resilient Sphere.
for flat out damage? magical lineaged intensified and empowered cold ice strike 3times in a round (because the casting time is a swift action casting time) goes for 90d6 which averages 310dmg per round. you can trade for maximize for a 9th level spell (or just spell perfection) to get a flat out 360 damage per round. that's the best i can think of
twinned works out the same to intensified and empowered.
You only get one Swift action a turn, period. You can't trade down actions for additional Swift Actions.
What is the RAGELANCEPOUNCE build? I am not doing to read through dozens of pages in a dozen threads to find the 'optimal' build for this abomination that has people posting like crazy
If you are wanting to go through this intellectual exercise, post the core components of the build for the exercise so we (those who don't want to wade through pages and pages of threads) can find where the soft spots are.
(Scratches head), okay, I missed the part about BATTY BAT. We should open up the rules enough to allow an equivalent mount/companion. 1 only though, and it cannot be a spell caster or a buff target. IF Batty Bat is attack in the RAGELANCEPOUNCE combo, then this companion should also be able to contribute at least as much as BATTY BAT does.
D8 + 1.5x str which it doesn't even have reach on and therefore can't use, for the record. He's pure speed.
really? hmmm... must've been a relic from fourth. are you speaking from RAW?You only get one Swift action a turn, period. You can't trade down actions for additional Swift Actions.for flat out damage? magical lineaged intensified and empowered cold ice strike 3times in a round (because the casting time is a swift action casting time) goes for 90d6 which averages 310dmg per round. you can trade for maximize for a 9th level spell (or just spell perfection) to get a flat out 360 damage per round. that's the best i can think of
twinned works out the same to intensified and empowered.
I am speaking from the fact that while the rules say you can take a move action in place of your standard, no-where do they allow for a substitution of a Swift for any sort of action.
Fourth, I believe does allow actions to be traded down in series, but Pathfinder has no such rules I am aware of beyond Standard > Move.
What is the RAGELANCEPOUNCE build? I am not doing to read through dozens of pages in a dozen threads to find the 'optimal' build for this abomination that has people posting like crazy
If you are wanting to go through this intellectual exercise, post the core components of the build for the exercise so we (those who don't want to wade through pages and pages of threads) can find were the soft spots are.
The theory is RAGE + LANCE + POUNCE + MOUNT = AWESOME.
This plus spirited charge gives you a total attack iteration on a charge of ~+47/47/42/37/32 with damage to castys of ~3d8 + 168 per hit.
You could probably get higher, but why?
So here is the challenge! Lets see a caster with a single round do more damage than RAGELANCEPOUNCE.
A Few Rules:
No summons. This is your spell, not some one or something elses.
No party members: IE, no you can't summon AM BARBARIAN, cast bless, and count that for the win.
Familiars and Animal Companions are OK if you're casting a spell that is either self only or to deliver a touch attack.
Level 20.
Goal, Kill AM BARBARIAN or any other RAGELANCEPOUNCE user before they can hit you with damage excessive of RAGELANCEPOUNCE.
You have 1 round, you are 30ft apart from target, and you can only justify a 2nd round if you can viably survive RAGELANCEPOUNCE on the first round without disabling the target.
Currently, No 3.5 material, unless the build for RAGELANCEPOUNCE uses 3.5 material.
So, who can pull it off?
First, ragelancepounce is not the best melee dmg dealing build. Second, casters are ST dependant, and can kill someone without doing damage (while a warrior /barb, etc can ONLY do dmg). More or less the best dmg for a 20th level caster (sorcerer dragon blood) is 320 with one spell, more likely 280 (empower and maximize rods), plus 10 if you are half orc.
Better is maximize and persistent rods, so first spell is 234 dmg, 132 with succesful ST, but he has to do it again 1 round later. The same round you drop persistent rod and with quick draw you take a quicken rod, the you cast anothe meteor swarm maximized, for 234 dmg.I wonder if you take a shape with more than two arms... if you are lucky you can deal 600 dmg. Maybe I forget something, dunno.
What is the RAGELANCEPOUNCE build? I am not doing to read through dozens of pages in a dozen threads to find the 'optimal' build for this abomination that has people posting like crazy
If you are wanting to go through this intellectual exercise, post the core components of the build for the exercise so we (those who don't want to wade through pages and pages of threads) can find were the soft spots are.
The theory is RAGE + LANCE + POUNCE + MOUNT = AWESOME.
This plus spirited charge gives you a total attack iteration on a charge of ~+47/47/42/37/32 with damage to castys of ~3d8 + 168 per hit.
You could probably get higher, but why?
Knight works better.
Knight works better.What is the RAGELANCEPOUNCE build? I am not doing to read through dozens of pages in a dozen threads to find the 'optimal' build for this abomination that has people posting like crazy
If you are wanting to go through this intellectual exercise, post the core components of the build for the exercise so we (those who don't want to wade through pages and pages of threads) can find were the soft spots are.
The theory is RAGE + LANCE + POUNCE + MOUNT = AWESOME.
This plus spirited charge gives you a total attack iteration on a charge of ~+47/47/42/37/32 with damage to castys of ~3d8 + 168 per hit.
You could probably get higher, but why?
Knight (or Cavalier) can't spellsunder or gain a +13 bonus on its saves versus spells. We can make cavalier builds that deal damage in the thousands. But we don't need to.
The damage and attack rolls above have a solid chance of one rounding a jabberwocky.
I decided to stop there.
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PUT ON NECKLACE OF CLEAN AIR ALWAYS AND KIDNEY BELT OR RING OF COLD NOT BE BOTHERING ME SO MUCH.
CAST OVERLAND FLIGHT, GO UP FOR SEVERAL HOURS.
CAST EXTENDED MAJOR CREATION TO MAKE BIIIIIIG ADAMANTITE SPIKE, LET IT FALL ON OR NEAR TARGET. TUNGSTEN SPIKE IF YOU HAVE LOTS OF KNOW METALLURGY.
GO BACK TO MAKING MAGIC ITEMS FOR FRIEND AND BEST CUSTOMER AM BARBARIAN.
blasphemyThe damage and attack rolls above have a solid chance of one rounding a jabberwocky.
I decided to stop there.
I prefer 'prudence,' myself.
This is a ridiculous suggestion that's really specific to dealing with this scenario... Contingency: Forcecage (barred) on yourself when someone comes within 15 feet of you. RAGELANCEPOUNCE can no longer use his lance on you. You now have a safe haven from which to cast spells you can dimension door in and out of. You can also hide behind it on the outside, blocking charges but not line of sight.
Edit2: To be more ridiculous, the Contingency specifically names AM, when he comes within 15 feet, Forcecage on yourself.
That is not a valid use of Contingency. The spell can be no higher than 6th.
PRD link
You can place another spell upon your person so that it comes into effect under some condition you dictate when casting contingency. The contingency spell and the companion spell are cast at the same time. The 10-minute casting time is the minimum total for both castings; if the companion spell has a casting time longer than 10 minutes, use that instead. You must pay any costs associated with the companion spell when you cast contingency.
The spell to be brought into effect by the contingency must be one that affects your person and be of a spell level no higher than one-third your caster level (rounded down, maximum 6th level).
The conditions needed to bring the spell into effect must be clear, although they can be general. In all cases, the contingency immediately brings into effect the companion spell, the latter being “cast” instantaneously when the prescribed circumstances occur. If complicated or convoluted conditions are prescribed, the whole spell combination (contingency and the companion magic) may fail when triggered. The companion spell occurs based solely on the stated conditions, regardless of whether you want it to.
You can use only one contingency spell at a time; if a second is cast, the first one (if still active) is dispelled.
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The barbarian have to be death within one round, no debuff spells, no battefield controlling spells or you will sufer a Spell sunder.This is a ridiculous suggestion that's really specific to dealing with this scenario... Contingency: Forcecage (barred) on yourself when someone comes within 15 feet of you. RAGELANCEPOUNCE can no longer use his lance on you. You now have a safe haven from which to cast spells you can dimension door in and out of. You can also hide behind it on the outside, blocking charges but not line of sight.
Edit2: To be more ridiculous, the Contingency specifically names AM, when he comes within 15 feet, Forcecage on yourself.
That's the whole point of a wall followed by a move. AM can sunder it to his heart's content, because he's restricted to a single move once he's done. He'll never get to me to hurt me.
The theory is RAGE + LANCE + POUNCE + MOUNT = AWESOME.
This plus spirited charge gives you a total attack iteration on a charge of ~+47/47/42/37/32 with damage to castys of ~3d8 + 168 per hit.
You could probably get higher, but why?
Does it actually work?
Mounted combat specifically forbid you to do more than 1 attack if the mount moves more than 5 feet. Even if you take a full-attack action (nothing prevent you from taking a full-attack action during a mounted charge), you can't make more than 1 attack. How does pounce ignore this special limitation?
Not to mention a mounted charge isn't a charge. The mount charge, not you (and as a special rule, you gain the AC penalty, and the bonus of the charge if you attack at the end of the charge). I'm not even sure if a rhino hide (or pounce, or anything) is applicable.
You gain the bonus of a charge. Pounce is a bonus to a charge, therefore it works.
Alternatively, Spirited Charge and Ride by attack do nothing, because they refer to you charging while mounted and not the mount charging with you on it.
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The barbarian have to be death within one round, no debuff spells, no battefield controlling spells or you will sufer a Spell sunder.That's the whole point of a wall followed by a move. AM can sunder it to his heart's content, because he's restricted to a single move once he's done. He'll never get to me to hurt me. And if he is mounted? after all is ragelancepounce
Leaving aside the question of whether he can RAGELANCEPOUNCE at all, he's still only got either a full-round action, or a standard and a move. If he sunders the wall, he's only got a move action left. And I'm invisible. AM's got to search for me, find me, move to me, and then attack me...and all he's left is a move action. He can't do it. And if he just sunders my spell, with the plan of RAGELANCEPOUNCING me next round, I'll cast another wall (or Line of Effect/Sight-blocking spell).
Enchant his beer.
You gain the bonus of a charge. Pounce is a bonus to a charge, therefore it works.Alternatively, Spirited Charge and Ride by attack do nothing, because they refer to you charging while mounted and not the mount charging with you on it.
Acutally he is right. Mounted combat explicitly forbids that you can make more than one attack if your mount moves further than 5ft.
Pounce only says that you may take a full attack after charging instead of the usual only one attack.
Mounted combat allows you to charge (what is your argument here with the +2 bonus anway?) but forbids the (now possible) full attack after the charge because it is stated in mounted combat.
That you COULD do a full attack after a charge doesn't matter here because it is clearly superseded. On the contrary if your mount has pounce (like riding on a Tiger) and it charges it would get a full attack but you wouldn't, unless you are a archer of course.
Please bear in mind this thread is to optimize casty damage and get higher than RAGELANCEPOUNCE. While I am all for determining if and how AM BARBARIAN smashes all castys, this isn't that thread.
You gain the bonus of a charge. Pounce is a bonus to a charge, therefore it works.Alternatively, Spirited Charge and Ride by attack do nothing, because they refer to you charging while mounted and not the mount charging with you on it.
Acutally he is right. Mounted combat explicitly forbids that you can make more than one attack if your mount moves further than 5ft.
Pounce only says that you may take a full attack after charging instead of the usual only one attack.
Mounted combat allows you to charge (what is your argument here with the +2 bonus anway?) but forbids the (now possible) full attack after the charge because it is stated in mounted combat.
That you COULD do a full attack after a charge doesn't matter here because it is clearly superseded.
By that logic, if I personally charge with pounce, I only get one attack, since the charge rules also say I can only make one melee attack, which would overwrite pounce. Remember, specific always trumps general rules.