RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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First time with these rules, I haven't even started the game yet and I already have a list of house rules a mile long again...
There's so many things that seem to just flat out break the game world. The worst example was the item creation. Even a low level crafter with a single item creation feat can easily generate 1000gp in resources per day... I couldn't imagine a world with a single adventurer within this paradigm, as you could become much better equipped and wealthier without ever leaving home and risking your neck. There would be a flood of crafters, a glut of top quality goods, prices would fall, eventually all magic items would be available at the drop of a hat at just over cost, all game worlds would become ultra-high magic by default with these rules...
Even if I was willing to sacrifice the verisimilitude of my game world and impose that somehow these item creation rules didn't apply to NPCs (again, the game world would be broken if it did), one character spending one feat could still generate 1000gp in resources per day. Now I suddenly have to pace my adventures so the crafter doesn't have enough time to earn his way into resources way beyond his level instead of letting the game unfold as the story dictates.
The first player to send me his new character forced me to put the brakes on that whole process as well. I know things are supposed to be a little more potent than 3.5 and I don't mind at all, as it seems to give players more flexibility and options in the process, but this first character (a high-str alchemist with feral mutagen) was capable of getting something like 30str with 3 full BAB attacks at full strength... at level 2. WTF am I supposed to do with this? If I throw creatures his way that are tough enough to possibly live more than 1 round then they will be strong enough to outright kill a single character per round. Its rocket tag and it's stupid. Is this just an extreme example of a douchebag powergamer or does the combat generally devolve into instantly wiping out the enemy or...
Hmm. First of all, magic item crafters must still pay half of the base cost of the items they are making, so it's not a license to mint gp. A party with Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Magic Arms and Armor and enough downtime will likely double the effective wealth of the group as far as magic items go. But, they in general can only sell their made items for half price, which is no net gain. if your players balk at only getting half of what NPC merchants get for selling items, point out that NPCs spend all day running stores and managing a business.
As for the alchemist, I'm suspicious of the legality of the build as you've presented it. I can see how a minmaxed alchemist could have 24 strength and a claw/claw/bite routine at 2nd level(for a little while each day), but I'll confess that I haven't studied the class in detail to "break" it.
Can we get his exact stat block? 90% of overpoweredness in Pathfinder is due to complete rules mismanagement (ie, the entire Summoner class).
Also, how do you generate 1000gp in resources a day? I'd like to hear your theory.
And on the topic of everyone in the world being a magical crafter-- A gold piece in relative terms is something like a thousand dollars. Not everyone has the 500gp venture capital and a highly trained wizard available to sit down to craft a single cloak of resistance. And then after that, who buys it? No one but adventurers even have the thousand gold to buy this item. You might not even sell it, and it could ruin your entire life. You might make 5 gold pieces a week extra while supporting yourself and your family, so it's been what, almost 10 years in the making? And what if the adept you hired flubs the Spellcraft check and ruins the materials? You don't have 250gp lying around to try again. And what if he curses the item by accident? Think of the legal ramifications of selling someone a cursed item that lead to their death. You could be hanged.
On top of that, people don't get to decide their ability scores. I think most NPCs have 13/12/11/10/9/8 before racial modifiers to "assign", but really, their parents "assign" these genetic scores for them. Not everyone can pay the fee or is important or lucky enough to even be able to take a single level of adept, much less a single level of wizard. And by then, they're what-- for humans, 15+3d6 years old? If they got unlucky, they could be 33 before they finished wizarding school and were level one.
How is he generating 1000 gp in resources per day?
With the 2nd level alchemist, the feral mutagen can give him 3 physical attacks at full BAB and full strength. That's OK. But how's he getting to a 30 strength? If a starting character maxed his strength at 20 (for a lot of points via point buy), the mutagen takes him to 24. High, but not 30. He can bump it to 28 with a 2nd level extract of bull's strength, but he can't do that until 4th level.
It's potent, but he also trying to wade into melee with a cleric's hit points and light armor (and +2 natural armor), so he's going to be less durable than any fighter
Plus, at 2nd level, that mutagen lasts 20 minutes. Then he has to spend an hour making another before he can use it again. In most adventuring sites, that's difficult to manage unless the monsters are really static.
Check his math. It is possible to get 30 Strength with feral mutagen quite fast but I am uncertain that it could be done at 2nd level (even alchemist/barbarian would be closer to 28 strength maximum at 2nd level but would not get three natural attacks, probably).
This is less matter of Pathfinder but the way the players build their characters - most game systems are prone to abuse if players want to abuse them (maybe with exception for total random systems where players only influence on character creation is rolling the dice).
The game does not limits itself to combat - if players created total combat machines throw heavy social interaction on them. And if your group desires combat-heavy game with hard challenges then throw them in conditions where they can't take full advantage of their abilities and would have to actually think.
A lot.
As for the brokenness of craft, you can do a search on the boards and find as many opinions as there are avatars. I personally use Making Craft Work by Spes Magna. Highly recommend it.
Talking about the optimization of the alchemist. There are definitely some things an alchemist can do to be a powerful melee class, yes even at low levels. Does that break the game? Not necessarily. It might unbalance (I realize balance itself is a subjective term) it at low levels but it doesn't break it. The good thing, at least in my GM perspective, about the Alchemist (and the other melee classes for that matter) class is the low Will save. Throw some daze, charm, or sleep spells at him and suddenly all those claw and bite attacks aren't useful at all. Send a couple of pixies at the group, and let them send some dust-covered arrows at him. There are ways to forge ahead and still have the game very playable. Sometimes it just takes a little bit of creative adjustment on the part of the GM.
Item creation COSTS resources to make. So it's not that your item creator can make things for free, nor does he have an unlimited market to sell to.
Here's a bit of advice. Forbid custom item creation, allow it to only apply to items in the book and feel free to require your adventurer-crafters to obtain formulae for the items they wish to create.
When it comes to the alchemists and summoner eidolons, double check the builds. And feel free to totally ban classes that you do not understand the rules to. If you're making that many house rules, it may be that your players are taking advantage with the fact that you're not fully up to snuff, if need be, disallow everything save the Core Rulebook until you get yourself to a comfort level to deal with them.
He's right.
I would also recommend Core Rulebook only, until you are better with the rules.
If you are going to open the other books,
I Strongly Strongly recommend banning Summoner (it's as Overpowered as FIRST level Paladin fighting a Balor),
and any other class you don't know or feel comfortable with.
Then look at the size of the thread, despair, and click on this summary:
here
If players want to sell items, they sell it at half cost. If they want to make an item, they make it at half cost. They gain nothing.
The feral mutagen alchemist is probably in the top 3 highest damaging builds in the game. Don't allow it. The alchemist is the most subtly broken classes in the game, which I actually think is a good thing.
You ran into a bad first example.
You are also under no obligation to allow PCs to take Crafting Feats. Although I'd just ban Craft Wondrous Item. It's too broad compared to the rest...
I disagree that the summoner should be banned. Just don't allow Pounce. It is a min-maxer's dream come true, but in the hands of someone more interested in role playing, it's fine. It'd even make them useful :)
I recommend the following houserule: "When building characters, do not marginalize the rest of the party."
That will stop the ragelancepounce barbarians, the feral mutagen alchemists, the archery paladins (or maybe just archers in general).
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I find the game is very rocket tag from the start, but I'm kind of okay with it. It's more unfair to the monster (lots of powerful low level diabling spells), but it sucks when it happens to the players (when they run into an adventuring party also or they roll low on Perception and initiative).
15 point buys will help reduce the power, and it's how APs and modules are designed. It hurts the fighting classes sure, but they are still good, just not as powerful as 20 point buys.
I don't know that much about alchemists, but he does need to prep and buff in order to become a melee monster. And I'm not sure he can do it at level 2 to that effectiveness.
ETA: and I was ninjaed by about 6 or 7 people who said everything I did much more succinctly and helpfully.
A word of advice, spall, based on my personal experience:
For your first game, run Core Only with no house rules (even if you've played 3.5, because there are a lot of subtle rules changes to get used to). See the rules in action as intended before you judge them--I have been often surprised at how something that seems broken actually works fine in practice, and other stuff surprises me to be unbalanced when it never occurred to me that it would be. Even if you are uncomfortable with some of the rules, just see how they work in practice.
Also, the Core Only issue eliminates the Alchemist and other complex APG classes that if not read well can be used... well, in the way you describe. (I think even if what you describe is legally possible for the alchemist, it would only be for limited amounts of time, and you'd have plenty of time to catch him off guard before he buffs himself up in such a way.) Once you get experience under your belt playing this game, you'll be able to tackle the supplements with a lot more knowledge and confidence and be able to judge what will work and what won't in your campaign. Also, "Advanced Player's Guide" is called that for a reason. It's for Advanced Players. If you're just starting out, you're probably not Advanced yet--which is not a negative judgement upon you, of course.
Regarding item crafting:
The rules aren't great, but I've seldom had an issue with them, because the one thing item crafting does require is TIME. Not to imply that you would do such a thing, but the stories I run don't revolve around the PCs roleplaying out their exciting lives in the magic workshop day and night. The PCs are trying to stop the assassination, rescue the dragon, slay the damsel, and generally speaking, save the world. They don't have several weeks to sit down and make the +5 MoneyMaker of Destruction. I DO give the PCs some downtime and they do craft items--for themselves to use on their adventures, because that's where their priorities are (without my having to say a damned thing about it). You note having to "suddenly pace your adventures" to allow for this--was this somehow different than before? Because if you played 3.x, people could still break the craft rules for money back then too. And again, even then, the majority of the game shouldn't be downtime, regardless of the crafting rules. Maybe you like a different style of game than I do, though.
There's also a matter of bearing in mind availability of resources--there isn't an unlimited number of NPCs with vast quantities of gold ready to beat down the PCs' door to buy their magic items. Beyond using your own sense of what NPCs WOULD be in the area to buy magic items (or not), most town build guides (including that in the Game Mastery Guide) provide a way for you to come up with a given area's total wealth and the maximum amount of money someone is going to be able to pay you for something. If you make an item worth 400,000 GP, but you're in a hamlet where the maximum amount a local can pay for an item is 800 gp, the PC is saddled with their 400,000 gp item (that they spent 200,000 gp of resources on to create).
And you as GM are fully in the right to bear in mind market forces. Not everyone will want/need/buy an item just because it's available. Just because the game provides the typical market value doesn't mean you will be able to instantly sell an item at that value.
And all of the above regarding items applies to any game ever--anyone can break rules and say, "Hey, I could sell this for a billion dollars and live easy for the rest of my life" in a lot of systems. If people are actually trying to do that, you have to ask them what their priorities are when adventuring. If you're surrounded by players more interested in breaking the game than actually having their PCs go on adventures, and GMing those kind of players isn't your cup of tea, then maybe you need to head to your FLGS and advertise for a new gaming group.
And for the record, everybody house rules to their own degree. I myself use very few houserules, most of which were devised after something came up in gameplay. They're very small and specific, like martial weapon proficiency allows quarterstaff users to use staves as trip weapons, and waves of exhaustion allows a saving throw to inflict fatigue instead. My only house "rule" for item crafting is sometimes I prefer my PCs to quest for a specific object to craft a magic item rather than pay a random materials cost, but we don't always have time for sidequests.
Crafting - Do like PFS and ban crafting feats or, if you're feeling generous, ban all but Scribe and Brew.
RE: your buddy's alchemist, wait and see what the other players come out with before you balance encounters. Perhaps reduce the stat pool, which will open up some more weaknesses (or mitigate the stupid a bit) on the alchemist. Alternatively, going to CRB only can work.
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Crafters any level cannot generate 1000gp in resource per day. At most they can make 500gp as half the daily 1000gp goes toward supplies. That is the rule. Even then 1st and 2nd level crafters have a hard time getting to 1000gp as they can only make scrolls. A 1st level spell cast at 2nd level sells for 50gp which nets a profit of 25gp. They can only make one a day.
Its really irrelevant anyway. You are the DM you get to determine the market for the item. Maybe no one wants to buy them. Why? Not enough money, too many already on the market, no need for it, etc. Crafting has never been an issue in my games. If you feel it will be a problem then us the XP cost rules from 3.5 and the spellcraft rules from PF.
As far as NPC crafters ruining the economy. I can tell you they won't. How do I know? Because YOU are the NPC who craft and who buy. It will somehow work out to not ruin the economy.
As far as the alchemist you need to post his stats. Also if he can only do this for a few rounds a day then it is still balanced if you are doing multiple encounters. Alchemists are known to be able to nova but usually run out of tricks over multiple encounters.
Odd, Our group has just switched to Pathfinder, and I crunched some numbers and found crafting to be weak. In particular, the Masterwork component of crafting takes two weeks for a maxed out crafter (level 20).
I'm going to have to grab "Making crafting work" and give it a gander.
Second level? If he's trying to push the envelope, the alchemist would want a level of barbarian, using rage to bump his strength higher.
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You say this is your first time with the rules, but you're already changing them without playing them?
I've been playing since 1981, so I understand the temptation to think that we understand and can familiarize ourselves with any system we come across just by looking at it. But I also understand how many times that has turned out not to be so.
I would recommend you actually play the game before you start altering it with house rules a mile long. You might find that not everything you think is broken, is, which will save you a lot of time and grief. I mean, to what are you comparing?
As to the creation guidelines, I have to ask where the 1st level PCs are getting 1,000 gp a day to do all this crafting? Is your concern that money is just lying around town in the gutters for any average PC to come by and pick up?
And why and how would every character in the game world go into the business of making magical items? Is every character in the game world a wizard? Are there no farmers or bakers or blacksmiths? Do you anticipate GMing for a party of four wizards?
To create 1000gp per day (correct me if I'm missing something) it seemed like a character could simply choose to make any item at their caster level, take a -5 penalty to double the speed, then... that's it. You're creating 2k per day and only spending half that in costs for a net gain of 1k per day. I know you need resources to start with, but you are still doubling whatever wealth you may have. The crafting DCs seem trivially low even after tacking on the -5. I think masterwork tools and a decent int bonus is all you need to have no failure chance (other than a natural 1). You could add skill focus if it was really necessary, but I doubt it would be.
Plenty of good advice in previous posts, so I won't reiterate that, but 2 things about this paragraph in particular:
1: PCs are only allowed to sell items for half market price == a crafter nets exactly zero upon sale of his creation. They aren't merchants with storefronts that have the resources to find a buyer willing to pay full price.2: a natural 1 on a skill check is not automatically a failure.
To create 1000gp per day (correct me if I'm missing something) it seemed like a character could simply choose to make any item at their caster level, take a -5 penalty to double the speed, then... that's it. You're creating 2k per day and only spending half that in costs for a net gain of 1k per day. I know you need resources to start with, but you are still doubling whatever wealth you may have. The crafting DCs seem trivially low even after tacking on the -5. I think masterwork tools and a decent int bonus is all you need to have no failure chance (other than a natural 1). You could add skill focus if it was really necessary, but I doubt it would be.
Okay. Lets take an example. an Amulet of Natural Armor +1 costs 2k gold, meaning you could craft it for 1k. As a player, when you sell an item, you get 50% of the price. So you get your 1k back. The player generates no profit whatsoever.
The only thing crafting is good for really, is customizing your items. Rather than having whatever treasure the DM throws, you can sell it for half price, and make an item with the proceedes. Do note that unless you simply found gold, you have to sell the treasure in the dungeon you got (say a +1 sword, valued at 2k gold) for half price (1k) and then craft that back into your amulet (2k). You again, didnt gain any net value. you just got an item you'd prefer for the same value.
See? not really that big of a deal. It will stretch party wealth a bit if you give them hordes of gold, but thats not a big deal.
As I said, the feral mutagen alchemist is one of the strongest characters in the game. With vivisectionist and beastmorph Archetypes, it gets even more powerful. I would just stick to APG and CRB, personally. For the first game, of course!
Things to look out for with this build: potions of greater magic fang and the extract alchemical allocation.
Ways to counter this: blur, displacement, mirror image, mobile enemies. Force him to use bombs with ranged enemies.
Magic item crafters can never make any money, as per the rules as written. They make items for half price, and they sell them for HALF PRICE, not full price. It is technically a waste of time to try to make a profit off of magic item creation. They would make more money by crafting nails or making Profession: Dances-for-nickels-guy checks.
Being big and hitting hard doesn't make you unbalanced. No one can be Enlarged all the time (well, not until they can cast/afford Permenancy). Incorporealness, Damage Reduction, Ranged Attacks and Charm/Dominate Person are all pretty much "Rock" to his "Scissors".
It's akin to gming your first 3.5 game and being handed a level 1 kobold wizard named BunBun.
It is possible to make money on crafting, if you have the hedge magician trait. But that's only 5%.
To create 1000gp per day (correct me if I'm missing something) it seemed like a character could simply choose to make any item at their caster level, take a -5 penalty to double the speed, then... that's it. You're creating 2k per day and only spending half that in costs for a net gain of 1k per day. I know you need resources to start with, but you are still doubling whatever wealth you may have. The crafting DCs seem trivially low even after tacking on the -5. I think masterwork tools and a decent int bonus is all you need to have no failure chance (other than a natural 1). You could add skill focus if it was really necessary, but I doubt it would be.I understand that resources are limited in some areas and players can't necessarily find markets for things they make, but if it is this easy to craft items it still breaks NPC crafting in any city. If a normal profession check nets you half your check in gold per week then a crafter could be selling his wares at 1% over cost and still be making 5-10x more than his skilled peers. My concept of "breaking" the world is that I would have to unmake and then remake the world to accommodate the one particular mechanic I'm looking at. These rules certainly pass that test, as it would turn the mid-magic world I want to run into a very high magic world.
If I ignore the effects on the free market and just let players craft then I'll be forced to hand out less treasure or have them blowing way past the recommended wealth. We use a substantial amount of downtime in our campaigns. When the story is moving quickly there may be close to none, but it's not uncommon for 2-3 months to pass between story arcs. This forces the players to think about their characters in a way other than paper-thin monster slayers and allows time for the game world to realistically change, possibly reflecting the player's achievements. I don't want to change that to keep wealth in check.
I think one thing you've got to keep in mind is that the crafting rules are designed to allow a 1:1 exchange of magic item value received via adventuring into desired magic items, not provide an economic simulation. Note that you can sell recovered items for half market value, you can create magic items for half market value. This is not a coincidence.
Communicate this to your players and tell them that's how you'll be viewing it - a system of transforming wealth into adventuring gear - not a rigorous system of simulating a magic item creation business. If you do this, you don't have to do anything to change how much treasure you give out. It all evens out in the wash.The alchemist in question was enlarging himself and using power attack (d8+10 x2, 2d6+10 all at 10ft reach); I saw +10 damage per swing and rounded it to 30str, which is wrong. He will soon have an infinite supply of bulls strength potions and was planning on doing a level of barb, so soon it'll be in excess of that number. I can't just allow it, but the whole Mr Hyde thing is cool and I don't want to just ban it from the campaign. We decided to just eliminate the bite attack until 8th level, when he's gain his normal iterative attack, but I'm still worried.
It won't really be an infinite supply of bull's strength, it'll still be limited per day based on the number of extracts he has per level. And, if combat is going to be de-emphasized in the campaign, he may find he has other valuable uses for them rather than concentrating just on hulking out.
If he wants to go beyond his extracts limit, he can make tradition potions, but these will slowy drain his cash reserves until he finds a belt of strength. Then it really will be all the time.
We run a RP/intrigue heavy campaign, so it's not uncommon to go a whole night with only around 2 combats. The fact that this whole buff chain is limited won't make much of a difference due to that. I don't want to have to design encounters specifically to counter this one player (Haha, now that you're all buffed those were illusionary monsters and the real ones are twiddling their thumbs in safety for the next 10 minutes) as it will feel heavy handed.
If this is an RP/intrigue heavy campaign, then he will almost certainly gain a reputation for his hulkiness. That justifies gearing lots of encounters around his Hyde persona's capabilities. I would recommend mixing creature types a lot - something for him and something a bit weaker in the physical area for the rest of the PCs. If there's one good thing out of 4e that I'd like to mention, it's the encouragement to use mixed unit types in encounters. Have a brute square off against your Hyde alchemist while artillery and masterminds and other types give the other PCs something to do.
Make it something of a campaign schtick. "Ah, I see you brought along Hyde. Don't believe I wasn't ready for this contingency. Meet my own pet - the animated anaboloid! Mwah hah ha!" Or something like that...|
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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The alchemist in question was enlarging himself and using power attack (d8+10 x2, 2d6+10 all at 10ft reach); I saw +10 damage per swing and rounded it to 30str, which is wrong. He will soon have an infinite supply of bulls strength potions and was planning on doing a level of barb, so soon it'll be in excess of that number. I can't just allow it, but the whole Mr Hyde thing is cool and I don't want to just ban it from the campaign. We decided to just eliminate the bite attack until 8th level, when he's gain his normal iterative attack, but I'm still worried.
Nitpick: How does a level 2 alchemist get power attack? He had to take the feat at level 1, and it requires BAB +1 which he didn't have then. Not that 1d8+8/2d6+8 is much better at level 2, but remember that requires some set up to do, and only last 2 minutes for enlarge person. Also, enlarge person has a 1 full round casting time in PF, so it's easier to disrupt. Without that, he's at 1d6+7/1d8+7 for 20 minutes a day due to his mutagen. With nothing up, he's at (weapon damage)+5.
If by "infinite potions" you're referring to the "spit n' swish" extract that lets you use a potion without using it up, that's still a daily resource being used up. He may as well just be casting the spell on himself at that point.
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I'd LOVE to see the Alchemist's stat block...I'm willing to bet ANYONE that hangs out on these forums could give you an unlimited supply of NPC or monster counter parts to that PC. Right off the bat I'm wondering what his dump stat is (probably Cha or Wis), so you may be looking at giving him Will saves. At level 2 I was able to create a Trip Fighter that could still put this fellow on his back...nothing sucks more than laying prone while being surrounded by baddies wearing nothing more than light armor.
Yes the damage output of the Alchemist can be taken to extremes (imagine if he made an Invulnerable Rager how pissed you'd be!), but for every action there is an equal or greater reaction. His Will save will naturall be his lowest, and he can only keep one Mutagen at a time. Take advantage of this by making sure there are more than one fight per day, and make sure that you exploit his lacking Will save. Even with what you've described I'm estimating his CMD at about 20 or so. Even at level 2 a roll of 13 or better can put him on his back or in a terrible grapple situation...take advantage of the use of Combat Maneuvers (they are A LOT easier to use in this game than in 3.5). Another solution would be to use more ranged combatants...take his high strength out of play as frequently as possible, or introduce more darkness situations where he'd be at a disadvantage for not being able to see.
Those are just a few of the ideas I had right off the bat...there are downfalls to building a character that is only good at one thing.
There is no daily limit on mutagens. It takes an hour to make them. Swift alchemy arguably makes that 30 minutes.
Nitpick: How does a level 2 alchemist get power attack? He had to take the feat at level 1, and it requires BAB +1 which he didn't have then. Not that 1d8+8/2d6+8 is much better at level 2, but remember that requires some set up to do, and only last 2 minutes for enlarge person. Also, enlarge person has a 1 full round casting time in PF, so it's easier to disrupt. Without that, he's at 1d6+7/1d8+7 for 20 minutes a day due to his mutagen. With nothing up, he's at (weapon damage)+5.
All extracts take 1 SA to use. It is one of the benefits they get in exchange for the other ways they get screwed when it comes to extracts vs. spells.
Good question about power attack.
First time with these rules, I haven't even started the game yet and I already have a list of house rules a mile long again...Paizo is the Blizzard of RPGs: Pathfinder is probably the most carefully balanced game out there right now. That's not to say that it is flawless or that every choice is equally good, but in general if something seems highly imbalanced there's a good chance you're missing a rule somewhere.
This is not even close to true. It is even "arguable" if it is more balanced than 3.5 edition.
I would say 4th edition is more like blizzard. It gets patched all the time and is more balanced. Of course, it has a lot of other issues.
If it is the first time with these rules, I echo the others and say you start with a more limited rule set (core only or perhaps core + APG). My guess is that it may be too late if you already have an alchemist.
I would also be interested in seeing this alchemist stated up. Do you use point buy or rolled stats? Sounds like he is a high stat character otherwise he would have some other weaknesses to account for the high ST. But a Barbarian 1 / alchemist 2 is very strong, pun intended, at low levels.
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There is no daily limit on mutagens. It takes an hour to make them. Swift alchemy arguably makes that 30 minutes.
I wasn't saying there was a daily limit on them...I was saying you can only keep one at a time. You can't make 5 and walk around with them because the minute you make another the first goes inert. Its not hard to make the enemies retreat to a defensible area to regroup and attack in 20 minutes or maybe it takes that long to get to them...there are ways to get around him constantly having a mutagen up for battles. The party isn't going to want to stand around in a dungeon while the alchemist has to make a mutagen...and if they do then ambush them or use hit and run tactics.
If the PCs were willing to devote their lives to crafting, they never would have become adventurers in the first place. Mr. Gygax had a famous quote about that.
Most items I can think of require a certain caster level, or spell level, to create--this rules out the "everyone as a Magic Item Crafter" fallacy. How are you going to reach such high levels if you're sitting around town trying to make stuff, instead of using your class talents in a very applied manner, in the field? This means adventuring.
I don't think the purpose of the crafting rules is so that one's PC can open up "Ye Olde Magic Shoppe," I think they are there for the occasional, rare--and therefore *important* items that they or their friends need to help them be more successful or powerful adventurers.
As pointed out above, where do you get the capital to start with? It takes serious money on the front end to even begin crafting anything worthwhile. I assume there are some banks, but are they going to lend you money so that you can attempt to craft something where you *might* succeed, and for which you *might* have a market? Sounds like a bad investment to me. What are they contemplating creating? Magic Swords? Magic Armor? Wands of Fireball? If "everyone" is a homebody crafter or artisan of somekind, why would they shell out the gold for items for which they have no use? You don't need magic weapons or wands for home defense, certainly. For most folks, a good old crossbow or spear would do just fine.
If I were GM and a player indicated that he was going to be spending significantly more time crafting things rather than adventuring, just because he deemed it more profitable, I'd say, "Fine, you retire to a life of crafting magic items while your friends continue their careers as heroes. You stop advancing in level but you make a lot of money. Roll up a new character who wants to explore dungeons and fight monsters."
Im sure its all been said before but your the GM.
YOU ARE GOD
without chaning any rules you can make everything work.
1) remember the cursed item rues (characters who fail their roll by a significant enough amount have a chance of creating a cursed item.
create a few of those and they may get a bad rep and people wont buy from them, others my come back and attempt to get revenge for the cursed item.
also.... failure evn normal failure costs money
2) cities and towns have gold limits... they may not be able to find any one able to purchase their goods. whats more other merchants in town may simply start undercutting some upstarts wares.
3) they may not always be able to find the components needed to craft their items... or in some places those components may come at a premium. this is the basis of trade.
4) to craft you need a craft skill... to sell you could require a sufficient proffesion skill. a man may know how to make an item but not have the bussiness savey to market and bargin.
5) the ability to understand a process does not equate to the ability to complete a process. in other words. just because I have a general idea of what goes into a product does not mean that I can reproduce it without instruction. require that a crafter have some kind of recepie or instruction book before crafting an item. the instructions may not be expencive... but finding a crafter willing to give up his secret process to a potential rival may be difficult.
those are just 5 of the cuff ideas.
as for confusing classes like alchemist, gunslinger ans summoner (to name a few) simply dont allow it. there is nothing wrong with saying that in this world summoners dont exist or guns dont exist... or as my GM does it... in order to be a gunslinger you have to have a 20 intel... in order to know how to make the guns in the first place. (greate use of a dump stat)
lastly and most interestingly... let the characters know that anything they do others can do. a group that includes a massivly overpowered character may run accross an NPC who happens to have the same skill and feat progression... OH!!!! the horror.
There is no daily limit on mutagens. It takes an hour to make them. Swift alchemy arguably makes that 30 minutes.I wasn't saying there was a daily limit on them...I was saying you can only keep one at a time. You can't make 5 and walk around with them because the minute you make another the first goes inert. Its not hard to make the enemies retreat to a defensible area to regroup and attack in 20 minutes or maybe it takes that long to get to them...there are ways to get around him constantly having a mutagen up for battles. The party isn't going to want to stand around in a dungeon while the alchemist has to make a mutagen...and if they do then ambush them or use hit and run tactics.
It's a common misconception, so I was just clearing it up. He won't have more than 1 mutagen at that point, but he will later.
And unless there's a strict time limit, there's no reason to not let him spend an hour to make it. Secure the position and hit fast forward.
Constant interruptions and timed quests get old. Real fast.
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The alchemist in question was enlarging himself and Also, enlarge person has a 1 full round casting time in PF, so it's easier to disrupt.No. It is 1 round, not 1 full round. Its like a full-attack action (can only 5 ft), not like a summoning spell.
"A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed...When you begin a spell that takes 1 round or longer to cast, you must continue the concentration from the current round to just before your turn in the next round (at least). If you lose concentration before the casting is complete, you lose the spell."
It works just like a summoning spell.
I replied to this earlier but the forum ate it, and now I've been ninja'ed by pretty much everyone, but let me add my voice to the chorus.
First up: Crafting.
You're right to some extent, that the crafting rules are rather odd, but then, I don't think I've ever seen a game where that wasn't the case. The economics of most games just don't scale well and don't end up making any sense -- but the rules do what they can to prevent the abuse you're worried about by making it explicit that you sell items for half value (the same as it costs to make it) -- so there's no profit there.
Now, sure, there are traits (and feats) which allow you to make a small profit -- and you could start looking at spending more money to build a store front, negotiate with the locals to set up a business, and then start taking ranks in profession, etc, etc -- which would let a character eventually reach a point where they could turn a profit... but it's still not a very good business model: very high start-up costs, limited market (due to the cost of the items), and worse, the value of your inventory (a) means that most of your "money" is tied up in items waiting to be bought, and (b) makes it very attractive to thieves. If someone really wants to RP that, they can, and I think that's fine -- but crafting is not just an ability to print money.
Beyond that, though, I would point out that while the crafting system is abstracted and deals with the costs of construction, PCs aren't literally melting down gold coins - they're using magical supplies to make their items. The rules are now deliberately abstract and hand-wave-y on this, other than the cost of the materials, but the GM is free to make it so that the formula for making item (x) requires substance (y). While substance (y)'s cost will be reasonable (within the construction costs guidelines, per the rules), there is absolutely no guarantee that the thing is readily available to the character (especially not in mass-production quantities).
Now, in terms of the alchemist, there's a few things to say here.
First up, as others have said, the statblock is a little fishy (and certainly a bit cheesy beyond that, but that's a different statement). 30 strength is flat-out impossible, barring additional magic. Max would be 24, which is 18 +2 racial +4 mutagen. Of course, other things (bull's strength, rage, whatever) could be added later, but not at level 2. In addition, a level 2 alchemist can't have Power Attack - he didn't qualify when he got his feat(s) at level 1 [+1 BAB required] and doesn't get another feat 'til level 3.
Two, yes, it's true, feral mutagen gives the alchemist 2 claws and a bite, all of which are primary attacks and thus hit for full str bonus and happen at the full attack bonus (which, for a maxed out character, would be be +8 [+1 for Alchemist level 2, +7 for 24 strength]). It's quite nasty.
But, a few things to remember are:
- Multiple attacks require a full attack option, so the alchemist can't do his claw/claw/bite sequence if he did more than a 5' step.
- The alchemist is a bit of a glass cannon - he's only got a medium hit die and light armour while he's wading into melee range (while looking nasty and feral)
- Mutagen is a limited substance -- it lasts 10 minutes per level (and you can't break it up -- you drink it once and get the full duration, unlike powers like rage which you measure as you need them), it takes a full hour to brew -- and you can only have 1 at a time (if you make a new one, the old one becomes inert).
- He needs the time to prepare - drinking a mutagen (or an extract) is an action
So, yes, the alchemist can be impressive for 20 minutes -- but if you're not only having a 20-minute adventuring day, the alchemist will run out of his super-snazzy and revert to normal -- and pumping his strength to max probably has him with relatively low stats in other areas -- including int, which gives him his extracts for the day, and possibly dex and con, which increase the whole glass cannon effect.
If he's also enlarging, that does make him hit even harder, but it adds a round to his required prep time, and that's him using up almost all of his daily allotment of magic for that one combat.
While the damage output potential is high for level 2, the fact is that it's easily countered by mobile opponents (and if you're not getting multiple attacks, why not move around to make sure your opponents don't either?) or anyone with a missile weapon -- and if you run the numbers, you'll see that he's not necessarily doing all that much more than a level 2 ranger with 20 strength could do -- and the ranger can do it all day.
Also, I'm not sure how you think the alchemist ends up with "infinite bull's strength" -- if he brews an extract, it takes up a slot, works once, and then he can't do it again until tomorrow (the dilute/extend/etc. potion things all come much later [by which time most people have items to boost attributes] and you can't dilute an already diluted potion)
So, in the end, my final advice will look a lot like what others have said: Make sure you're applying the rules properly (eg - no multiple attacks if you move) and get a feel for how it works in practice (instead of just being shocked by large numbers) before house ruling anything.
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There is no daily limit on mutagens. It takes an hour to make them. Swift alchemy arguably makes that 30 minutes.I wasn't saying there was a daily limit on them...I was saying you can only keep one at a time. You can't make 5 and walk around with them because the minute you make another the first goes inert. Its not hard to make the enemies retreat to a defensible area to regroup and attack in 20 minutes or maybe it takes that long to get to them...there are ways to get around him constantly having a mutagen up for battles. The party isn't going to want to stand around in a dungeon while the alchemist has to make a mutagen...and if they do then ambush them or use hit and run tactics.It's a common misconception, so I was just clearing it up. He won't have more than 1 mutagen at that point, but he will later.
And unless there's a strict time limit, there's no reason to not let him spend an hour to make it. Secure the position and hit fast forward.
Constant interruptions and timed quests get old. Real fast.
So does playing in a game where ONE guy steam rolls every encounter you are in...
Since you obviously think in extremes, then the GM can always just up the CR of what they are fighting too...nothing says "die" like an Empower/Maximize Fireball spell.
The alchemist in question was enlarging himself and Also, enlarge person has a 1 full round casting time in PF, so it's easier to disrupt.No. It is 1 round, not 1 full round. Its like a full-attack action (can only 5 ft), not like a summoning spell."A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed...When you begin a spell that takes 1 round or longer to cast, you must continue the concentration from the current round to just before your turn in the next round (at least). If you lose concentration before the casting is complete, you lose the spell."
It works just like a summoning spell.
Except a potion (or extract) only takes a standard action to drink -- so it's not a full round action, 1 round action or any such action to use: It's a standard action for the alchemist.
An extract is “cast” by drinking it, as if imbibing a potion—the effects of an extract exactly duplicate the spell upon which its formula is based, save that the spell always affects only the drinking alchemist. The alchemist uses his level as the caster level to determine any effect based on caster level.
Activation: Drinking a potion or applying an oil requires no special skill. The user merely removes the stopper and swallows the potion or smears on the oil. The following rules govern potion and oil use.Drinking a potion or using an oil is a standard action. The potion or oil takes effect immediately. Using a potion or oil provokes attacks of opportunity. An enemy may direct an attack of opportunity against the potion or oil container rather than against the character. A successful attack of this sort can destroy the container, preventing the character from drinking the potion or applying the oil.
ALSO:
People it's the advanced players guide for a reason -- not to be rude but if you are a beginner it's probably not the place to start.
Except a potion (or extract) only takes a standard action to drink -- so it's not a full round action, 1 round action or any such action to use: It's a standard action for the alchemist.An extract is “cast” by drinking it, as if imbibing a potion—the effects of an extract exactly duplicate the spell upon which its formula is based, save that the spell always affects only the drinking alchemist. The alchemist uses his level as the caster level to determine any effect based on caster level....
Activation: Drinking a potion or applying an oil requires no special skill. The user merely removes the stopper and swallows the potion or smears on the oil. The following rules govern potion and oil use.Drinking a potion or using an oil is a standard action. The potion or oil takes effect immediately. Using a potion or oil provokes attacks of opportunity. An enemy may direct an attack of opportunity against the potion or oil container rather than against the character. A successful attack of this sort can destroy the container, preventing the character from drinking the potion
Extracts are even better than potions as you do not have to use an action to get the potion from your backpack or whereever you store them.
"An alchemist can draw and drink an extract as a
standard action."
Like I said -- it's not a full round action and is a standard action. So why you quoting me?
Enlarge Person +2 Strength Mod, -2 Dex Mod, -1 to attack. Not a big deal. Last for one minute.
You forget, it also increases the damage dice. He is now 1d8 / 1d8 / 1d12. And he has reach! Basically he get more damage + reach + size (can be good or bad) vs. -2 AC (one of size, one for dx) and -1 reflex.
Enlarge is awesome for melee characters. So I see how this can be a concern to a new DM.