But seriously dude. You said that the party wouldn't want to wait an hour for him to make the mutagen. I can understand if there's some sort of time limit. Maybe we need to rush to stop a zombie apocalypse! Maybe the roof is slowly moving down, inevitably going to crush us if we stay here and recoup and recharge our fighting capability. Maybe if we don't get this one artifact before sundown, the evil vampire lord is going to sacrifice poor Joe's daughter.
But why wouldn't they otherwise? You can't seriously mean that the party would rush forward with no chance to regain lost resources, just so that one player isn't steamrolling the enemies. That's metagaming at it's finest. Or worst, I guess.
To OP, I do highly recommend reading through that link I posted above about the differences between 3.5 and PF, and other such misconceptions. Unless you never played 3.x, I guess.
Like I said -- it's not a full round action and is a standard action. So why you quoting me?
I just wanted to clairify a further difference between potions and extracts. Generally you have to draw a potion and then drink it, which is two actions. You do not have to do so with an extract. This is a common mistake.
It was you that brought up potions in the first place. I am not sure why as they are different.
Fair enough -- also ossian666 great reason!
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You forget, it also increases the damage dice. He is now 1d8 / 1d8 / 1d12. And he has reach! Basically he get more damage + reach + size (can be good or bad) vs. -2 AC (one of size, one for dx) and -1 reflex.Enlarge is awesome for melee characters. So I see how this can be a concern to a new DM.
Ah yeah, that's right. It enlarges everything. Still not a big deal. If you follow PF character creation rules, you end up with an alchemist who STILL is underpowered in melee when compared to a Fighter or Barbarian.
Alchemist is a fine class and one to be respected in play. It's not the class the original poster seems to think it is.
*blink blink*
Please try building up a Beastmorph Vivisectionist Alchemist that focuses on Feral Mutagen, and eventually takes a level of Master Chymist.
Don't forget about the CL 20 Potion of Greater Magic Fang that you drink at the beginning of the day. Twice with alchemical allocation.
Or the Pounce ability of the Beastmorph.
Then compare it to the optimized fighter with his Greatsword.
It will be an enlightening experience for you.
Like I said -- it's not a full round action and is a standard action. So why you quoting me?I just wanted to clairify a further difference between potions and extracts. Generally you have to draw a potion and then drink it, which is two actions. You do not have to do so with an extract. This is a common mistake.
It was you that brought up potions in the first place. I am not sure why as they are different.
I think you guys are getting confused with Bombs, which can be made and thrown as a standard action.
Exctracts are EXACTLY like potions, as stated in the APG. I can't find this rule of drawing and drinking as a total standard action, unless it's in a faq, in which case link please :).
I personally thought that was why they have vestigal arms and tentacle discoverys? So they can hold extracts and potions ready for when they need them.
On the other hand, this means the raging drunk barb archtype, and accelarated drinker trait apply allowing them to drink as a move action.
I...I don't think that's even close to the intent NeverEver.
They are like potions. But they aren't potions. They just use some rules of potions, but not all.
I...I don't think that's even close to the intent NeverEver.
They are like potions. But they aren't potions. They just use some rules of potions, but not all.
"An extract is “cast” by drinking it, as if imbibing a potion", and further it states that a extract behaves as a spell in potion form. I can certainly see people arguing against it from a balance perspective, but whether you are looking logically (it's a potion. why should it be more difficult to drink than any other potion?) and RAI (this is a spell in the form of a potion, it is meant to behave like a potion), i don't see any problem. Isn't that the point of a alchemist? A potion drinking master of potion making?
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Exctracts are EXACTLY like potions, as stated in the APG. I can't find this rule of drawing and drinking as a total standard action, unless it's in a faq, in which case link please :).
Although the alchemist doesn't actually cast spells, he does have a formulae list that determines what extracts he can create. An alchemist can utilize spell-trigger items if the spell appears on his formuale list, but not spell-completion items (unless he uses Use Magic Device to do so). An extract is “cast” by drinking it, as if imbibing a potion—the effects of an extract exactly duplicate the spell upon which its formula is based, save that the spell always affects only the drinking alchemist. An alchemist can draw and drink an extract as a standard action. The alchemist uses his level as the caster level to determine any effect based on caster level.
Bolded part, right there in the text.
I'm pretty sure that hasn't changed since the first printing of the APG -- I think it matches what I have in my paper copy.
Like I said -- it's not a full round action and is a standard action. So why you quoting me?I just wanted to clairify a further difference between potions and extracts. Generally you have to draw a potion and then drink it, which is two actions. You do not have to do so with an extract. This is a common mistake.
It was you that brought up potions in the first place. I am not sure why as they are different.
I think you guys are getting confused with Bombs, which can be made and thrown as a standard action.
Exctracts are EXACTLY like potions, as stated in the APG. I can't find this rule of drawing and drinking as a total standard action, unless it's in a faq, in which case link please :).
I personally thought that was why they have vestigal arms and tentacle discoverys? So they can hold extracts and potions ready for when they need them.
On the other hand, this means the raging drunk barb archtype, and accelarated drinker trait apply allowing them to drink as a move action.
I'm not going to get into all this again here -- but you should probably practice some search fu.
I've done the math a few times.
That's a vivisectionist at level 5. Hasted. Compared to a 5th level fighter with a greatsword.
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** spoiler omitted **
To OP, I do highly recommend reading through that link I posted above about the differences between 3.5 and PF, and other such misconceptions. Unless you never played 3.x, I guess.
OP, I understand that obviously I've made it seem that the ONLY way to make your game enjoyable is to punish the hell out of the Alchemist and suck the life force directly from his very soul while he eats Funyuns and drinks Mountain Dew on probably the only night each week that he gets to relax and stop living the dull boring life that he obviously leads. That is not what I am recommending. I was giving you solutions/options to allow your players to still play the classes they enjoy without having you restrict everything down to being Fighters. There are obviously lots of solutions for every problem and the few I gave you are ways to just make the rest of the party have a chance to step up and be heroes as well. [/endsarcasticrant]
I'm pretty sure that hasn't changed since the first printing of the APG -- I think it matches what I have in my paper copy.
It doesn't match the copy I have, nor the www.d20pfsrd.com that i normally use as it's easier to navigate, so it must have been changed at some point.
It actually feels like this was intended as a buff (stopping alchemists needing so many actions too cast) but actually became a nerf, since it's now it's own special action, and in fact nothing like a potion anymore, stopping the previously mentioned concepts our group had been using.
One of my players is going to be very upset.
By the way, FAQ on accelerated drinker, as pointed out by Ogre.
I can quote it thought: "No."
Ah, so definatly been errated out then, my player is going to whine about wanting to trade one of his vestigals and the tentacle now, since he only had them for that.
Thanks for the replies so far, I didn't know this placed moved so fast. I'm going to spend a few days lurking around here when I finish with this thread so I can avoid bringing up issues that may have been beaten to death already.
To create 1000gp per day (correct me if I'm missing something) it seemed like a character could simply choose to make any item at their caster level, take a -5 penalty to double the speed, then... that's it. You're creating 2k per day and only spending half that in costs for a net gain of 1k per day. I know you need resources to start with, but you are still doubling whatever wealth you may have. The crafting DCs seem trivially low even after tacking on the -5. I think masterwork tools and a decent int bonus is all you need to have no failure chance (other than a natural 1). You could add skill focus if it was really necessary, but I doubt it would be.
In most games the loot comes in the form of items rather than gold.
Example:
GM:You find a +1 sword worth about 2000 gp
Player:I want to sell it.
GM:Magical items sell for half of the market value(actual rule), so you will get 1000 gp for it
Player(after selling the sword): I want to craft a +1 magical axe for which will cost about 1000 GP to do.
You see that no money was gained. He basically traded one item for another of equal value. Now if you just like to hand out gold instead then I would suggest putting less downtime into the game so they don't profit as much and/or making the loot mostly items since that makes it an equal trade.
How does vestigal whatever and tentacle help with drinking potions?
Are tentacles even opposable?
Odd, Our group has just switched to Pathfinder, and I crunched some numbers and found crafting to be weak. In particular, the Masterwork component of crafting takes two weeks for a maxed out crafter (level 20).
I'm going to have to grab "Making crafting work" and give it a gander.
He means the magic item crafting.
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How does vestigal whatever and tentacle help with drinking potions?
Are tentacles even opposable?
Accelrated drinker trait for his bomb based alchemist, requires you to have the potion in hand, vestigal and tentacle specifically call out being used to hold extra potions and the like, as in the description.
Ah, so definatly been errated out then, my player is going to whine about wanting to trade one of his vestigals and the tentacle now, since he only had them for that.By the way, FAQ on accelerated drinker, as pointed out by Ogre.
I can quote it thought: "No."
Show him the official post and tell him to deal with it, you aren't trying to screw him over, you are following the rules.
I'm pretty sure that hasn't changed since the first printing of the APG -- I think it matches what I have in my paper copy.
It was "clairified" in the eratta released on 12/01/10
• Page 27—in the Alchemy class feature, in the
seventh paragraph, add following sentence before
the last sentence:
An alchemist can draw and drink an extract as a standard
action.
I guess I've just been using the PRD way more often than my paper copy. ;)
...it would turn the mid-magic world I want to run into a very high magic world...
There is a part of the issue. Pathfinder is closer to the 3.x Ebberon which is a very high magic world (but not quite as extreme).
However, having said that, you are missing/overlooking some things.
1) Low level guys can't make 1k in profit a day because they can't make anything that is worth 2k no matter what their skill check is.
2) You are overlooking some aspects of the market you are talking about. Midievil is not really free market.
3) Just because some prince has the 2k to buy the sword does not mean he will (are you absolutley sure mister aristo will want to buy something that gives a minor benifit to a fight he doesn't expect to need but still uses up all of his disposable cash?
4) The default sale price is the same as the default crafting price.
5) It is an adventure game that doesn't try to acurately model the economy for everyone. It is just trying to give enough for what the players need to interact with.
As others have said, I would recommend you play with the rules as written for at least a little while before you change very much. Most of the time when I have thought something was terribly broken, usually we were not doing it correctly. When some player comes up with something that seems to good to be true, I post it here and find out we allowed something that some odd rule prohibits or limits.
Well the economic model of pathfinder is rather robust if perhaps not immediately apparent.
Well the economic model of pathfinder is rather robust if perhaps not immediately apparent.
Shouldn't you link him the post you made?
Well the economic model of pathfinder is rather robust if perhaps not immediately apparent.Shouldn't you link him the post you made?
Well I wasn't going to but I certainly can:
I've yet to see anyone take a crafting feat. I don't think I would either. Even with a wizard who gets them as bonus feats I'd rather take the metamagic feats. I find you rarely get time to create magic items beyond a scroll or maybe a potion. So the few times you get to use the feat you basically have wasted a Feat for the rest of the time. At least with metamagic you might use that a few time per gaming session instead of may once in a session or two over the characters life span with a create X item feat.
Spall my biggest advice would be:
Don't start a campaign yet.
This is a new system to you all -- and that's good. But like anything new you shouldn't simply pack it up and go camping in it right away.
You need to test drive it and find where it works for you all. As such I recommend doing several one shot adventurers over a period of several levels. In fact have a different person GM each one -- heck simply run it almost like gladiator games where you all grab a hand full of monsters from the book randomly create some terrain and everyone throws in their character.
This way no one is ruining the game -- everyone is experimenting you all get a feel for the rules and how the game flows for your group and after you get a good feel for the system and what everyone wants from it go with a campaign.
Actually magical item limits already exist. The town has a maximum purchase limit for items -- they aren't going to be able to sell anything above that limit.
And if you follow my link above you'll see the net income of a farmer is around 48gp a year. There are richer individuals but it's easy to calculate how much they earn a year too -- with such calculations we can easily see just how limited the PC's are on selling things.
Besides when they are out on adventures you don't have to give them treasure -- sure you can but if they are already rich enough simply don't give them any more.
Also feel free to use life style costs, be sure to keep the wizard paying for his spells (he only gets 2 free a level -- anything more than 40+cantrips+1st level Int Mod spells is going to add up), and honestly don't be afraid of the sunder -- embrace it as a wealth management tool.
Unless there is some other source of resource depletion (like xp in 3.5) or a limitation on crafting supplies (like questing for material components) then items will devalue.
Gold is a finite resource. thats kinda the point. The reason not everyone crafts is they cant afford it. Only kings could, and they have personal wizards and things for it. Theres your limit on crafting supplies.
I'm not worried about my players deciding to stay home and craft magic items. The system works mechanically, selling for 50%, craft for 50%. Players crafting get more customization and double the value of liquid treasure assets as they are converted to items- no problem. It's not game breaking mechanically, but I don't think it works in the context of a real world. Unless there is some other source of resource depletion (like xp in 3.5) or a limitation on crafting supplies (like questing for material components) then items will devalue.I know I can simply wave my hand and say "This doesn't happen!" but every time I do that it...
No, you're right -- -- I had the same problem the first time I picked up a 3ed book and looked at construction (even with the XP cost) -- all economic issues are nasty in a place where a fixed cost makes an item that lasts forever. Simply put, unless there's a mass push to destroy items (and a good in-game reason for it -- it's probably the only good thing about the idea of residuum in 4e), items will eventually flood the world -- all XP cost does is make it take a bit longer as single individuals aren't messing up the system -- but groups of them (over time) are.
The simplicity of construction is such that some people would start making devices that employ magic (instead of people and muscle power) -- especially considering that both prestidigitation and mending are level 0 spells. (Happy birthday, Mom. I made you this box that will fix clothes, now that the arthritis won't let you darn socks. Oh, and as a bonus, it'll work on most small stuff you put in it - like tools.)
Now, you can fix (some) of this by having people have to quest for material components (which, as I said, is allowed, the system just abstracts that out), but even that is just a brake.
Non-sense, First off just because it is made doesn't mean it doesn't break or that it doesn't need maintenance. Nothing in the rules states that magical items last forever.
Also beyond breakage and loss issues (and there will be loss) there's also the problem that people tend to undervalue a farmer's income for a year and over estimate how much of the economy can be dried up with selling magical items.
Also not every mage has the capacity for making magic items, or even making magical items of high value.
The average NPC level tends to be between 3~5 (currently your world may vary). With average npc stats being 13,12,11,10,9,8.
Lets go with a 5th level average wizard NPC, and make him human.
He puts his 13 in his Int +2 for racial and +1 for leveling up, which means he's got an Int of 16. With maximum ranks in spell craft he's +11.
If he's crafting he's got a nice total there... but he can't make +2 weapons, he can't make +2 armor, he can't make a staff rod or ring at all and he's limited on what wondrous items he can make too.
Honestly it's no more a problem than crafting was in prior editions, people just want to say it is.
So sure there might be a lot of +1 weapons and armor out there... but again why pay 1,000~2,000 gp for something that for the average NPC a masterwork or less will do just as well?
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Crafting magic items does work in a game economy. In real life companies don't make unlimited amounts of stuff for two reasons: the market is not big enough or they do not have the capacity to make more. If a company can make ten million widgets but only sells 4 million a year then they will only make around 4 million of them. To make more is foolish as they would sell at a loss or not sell at all. If that company can sell 15million widgets it will make its capacity and try to expand if the long term prospects look good. If not other people might jump in.
In terms of magic items every item creator has a hard creation cap. In a 365 day year the most they could make is 730,000 gp worth of stuff. That assumes no failed rolls and adding the +5 for double speed creation.
For many reasons few will ever reach this cap. They might want a couple days off a week. Say two days a week. Now they are losing 208,000gp a year in productivity. They might take vacations, many will fail some rolls.
If you allow NPCs to get full value for magic items (meaning they double their money) they can only double their money when they actually sell the item.
As others have calculated the typical 3rd level NPC professional is making less than 400gp a year before expenses so the market for high price magic items is rather constricted. That leaves you with the top income earners. But since magic items don't go bad many of them already have purchased items. Sometimes these things get lost or broken or stolen so there is a small market among the rich. But the market is small and the rich expect a certain quality. These magic items can't just be plain old bracers.
So more money has to go into making them fancy which restricts profit percentage but increases overall profit.
I could go on but you don't have to say just because to make it work. Real world economics apply to the fantasy economy and make it work. Look at guns. Guns are great and run the whole gamut from cheap to expensive. There are a ton of manufacturers. But everyone does not want a gun or even need a gun. The demand limits how many will be made.
Rings of Sustenance do not allow you to bypass the hard limit of 8 hours of work a day.
Rings of Sustenance do not allow you to bypass the hard limit of 8 hours of work a day.is that a hard limit for a single item or on using crafting
EDIT: i'll admit it is a grey area
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems/rings.html
If it doesn't allow the spellcaster to prepare spells more than once a day, I think it would also prevent them from crafting for more than 8 hours a day, especially since most people are awake for 16 hours a day, and it isn't unprecedented that a person will work 12 or more hours in a single day.|
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I can't speak to individual GM rulings. But crafting 2 items a day is figured in.aren't you talking single item at double speed? 8 hrs of crafting?
I was talking 18 hrs of crafting as a max, multiplied by 365 = 1.6425 mil a year at double speed
Yes that was what I meant. But that still lets them craft twice as many items if the items are the right values.
Non-sense, First off just because it is made doesn't mean it doesn't break or that it doesn't need maintenance. Nothing in the rules states that magical items last forever.
Nothing in the rules states that they run out (charged items notwithstanding) either -- and more than one adventure has (as its reward) magic items that are hundreds or thousands of years old. Non-charged items are generally considered to be permanent, and I would say that since there's no mechanic for them breaking down or wearing out (and the fact they're handed out as treasure), that doing otherwise would be a GM ruling to "fix" a problem.
(And I don't know of any player who'd be happy that the mythical sword of the long-dead Emperor King he just grabbed that's supposed to be a Dragonsbane isn't going to help him beat ol' Red outside the tomb).
Once we get past them wearing or burning out, well, Mending and Make Whole can both fix magic items, and they're on pretty much everyone's spell list.
Also beyond breakage and loss issues (and there will be loss) there's also the problem that people tend to undervalue a farmer's income for a year and over estimate how much of the economy can be dried up with selling magical items.
Loss (in the retail sense) doesn't take the items out of the economy -- sure, it's an issue for the guy running the magic shop -- but it merely shifts the item from "white" market to black or grey.
Honestly it's no more a problem than crafting was in prior editions, people just want to say it is.
In earlier editions, crafting was a monumental pain and limited not by pure cash, but needing to work out a complex formula and possibly needed special items in the construction (pieces of magical beasts and outsiders were pretty common) -- which did a lot to limit what you could make.
Considering the massive pain and expense, a high level mage wouldn't likely (ever) waste the time and effort to make a simple utility item for Mom....
Now, there are no such limits, just value of materials it takes to make 'em, and the rules for construction have been made quite easy so that anyone with the feat can do a lot.
So sure there might be a lot of +1 weapons and armor out there... but again why pay 1,000~2,000 gp for something that for the average NPC a masterwork or less will do just as well?
Well, first of all, I'm not arguing that the world would be inundated with +5 armour -- so your point is a little off the mark. However, beyond that, I'm more talking about items rather than weapons and the same 2K for a +1 sword (which you seem to think could become extremely common) also buys you, say, a Handy Haversack or Hat of Disguise.
And, as you suggest, especially when masterwork items are available, the Handy Haversack is probably more useful than the +1 sword (especially to people who aren't really fighters or likely to face something with DR:magic).
Crafting magic items does work in a game economy. In real life companies don't make unlimited amounts of stuff for two reasons: the market is not big enough or they do not have the capacity to make more. If a company can make ten million widgets but only sells 4 million a year then they will only make around 4 million of them. To make more is foolish as they would sell at a loss or not sell at all. If that company can sell 15million widgets it will make its capacity and try to expand if the long term prospects look good. If not other people might jump in.
There's a few issues here.
One, while companies may not make infinite stuff, but they do keep making new stuff, because selling that stuff is how they make their money. Not selling stuff = no money = bad.
Two, companies will often price that new stuff a little lower when dealing with a competitor who is selling similar stuff.
Three, you have to remember that most modern manufacturing makes use of Planned Obsolescence -- so that there's always a market.
In cases where they didn't, you had market saturation which often led to the failure of those companies, although this also often resulted in a very large reduced-cost pool of goods (as they try to compete with their own past products that are being resold -- Nortel, is an excellent example here) -- which is the same thing that I'm arguing -- that, eventually, the items would become more and more common, and cheaper.
So, yes, I'm saying the rules (as written) would eventually lead to a world filled with (low-power, sure) items that would end up costing little more than the cost to build them -- and, in fact, possibly even slightly less because of attempts at competition. I am also saying that the ease of making a magic items would then lead to things like a magical dishwasher (via Prestidigitation) or Fixit Box (via Mending) -- because at least one mage out there will remember his mother's birthday -- and that you're also walking the road to universal magiTech.
So they are durable goods -- so are washing machines, cars, and nuclear reactors. Doesn't mean they don't need maintenance, don't break down, or can't be broken (which there is mechanics for).
Loss matters to the customer -- I'm not talking theft but you know, "Guy buried with sword" sort of stuff -- or 'where did a put that (x) again?".
Crafting wasn't a 'pain' -- unless the GM decided it was. Not the same thing as the rules were rather vague and left to GM discretion... which is still the case.
Handy Haversack is a ninth level item with a fifth level spell that isn't available to the level 5 caster. So he's got a DC 24 crafting check to make that haversack with a +11 -- not impossible... but certainly not guaranteed.
EDIT: Also please note that only weapons have the rules that make them harder to sunder (has to be a weapon of equal or higher enhancement bonus) -- a handy haversack in a closet of a house that burns down will be gone just like the cloak of protection on the peg would be. Such items have nothing that gives them extra protection from everyday wear and tear.
Also there are no rules for wear and tear -- doesn't mean it's not happening.
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The worst example was the item creation. Even a low level crafter with a single item creation feat can easily generate 1000gp in resources per day... I couldn't imagine a world with a single adventurer within this paradigm, as you could become much better equipped and wealthier without ever leaving home and risking your neck.
Not all characters are 100% in it for gold/more stuff. Some have other motivations....maybe even just a love of adventure for it's own sake.
First time with these rules, I haven't even started the game yet and I already have a list of house rules a mile long again...
There's so many things that seem to just flat out break the game world. The worst example was the item creation. Even a low level crafter with a single item creation feat can easily generate 1000gp in resources per day... I couldn't imagine a world with a single adventurer within this paradigm, as you could become much better equipped and wealthier without ever leaving home and risking your neck. There would be a flood of crafters, a glut of top quality goods, prices would fall, eventually all magic items would be available at the drop of a hat at just over cost, all game worlds would become ultra-high magic by default with these rules...
Even if I was willing to sacrifice the verisimilitude of my game world and impose that somehow these item creation rules didn't apply to NPCs (again, the game world would be broken if it did), one character spending one feat could still generate 1000gp in resources per day. Now I suddenly have to pace my adventures so the crafter doesn't have enough time to earn his way into resources way beyond his level instead of letting the game unfold as the story dictates.
Items don't sell back to the market for their purchase price. They usually sell for roughly the price to create them, give or take the size of the market and the bartering ability of the character. The item creation rules were never intended to allow the players to craft things for profit.
The first player to send me his new character forced me to put the brakes on that whole process as well. I know things are supposed to be a little more potent than 3.5 and I don't mind at all, as it seems to give players more flexibility and options in the process, but this first character (a high-str alchemist with feral mutagen) was capable of getting something like 30str with 3 full BAB attacks at full strength... at level 2. WTF am I supposed to do with this? If I throw creatures his way that are tough enough to possibly live more than 1 round then they will be strong enough to outright kill a single character per round. Its rocket tag and it's stupid. Is this just an extreme example of a douchebag powergamer or does the combat generally devolve into instantly wiping out the enemy or...
Sounds like an abusive (or possibly even illegal) build to me.