The night would have gained them nothing. A Gnome sees perfectly in the night. And you don't know what the rest of the party is made of. If that even matters because the Paladin can perfectly see him.
Still any troubles with Low Light Vision in the need of explaining?
Please explain to me how, on an overcast night, does a gnome with low-light vision see perfectly?
If I am not mistaken, low-light will allow you to see as if iwere daylight out, on a moonlight night.
He was. He had the one useful buff he could cast by himself and even another buff cast by an ally.This is why I was under the impression that he had buffed himself as well as getting the haste buff by the wizard.
That remrk was referring to the DRAGON, not the paladin.
Now that I have taken the time to reply to you in detail, please do read my post.
My apologies, timings on reading and responding to posts, at times creats that impression that some comments are being ignored, while they are simly in limbo while the typing is being done.
This is for you Alienfreak since you dont like to pay attention. I said before that the dragon is huge. His bite has 15 feet of reach. Grappling pulls you into an adjacent square meaning the paladin is 10 feet up in the air. Unless that caster has long arms he can't reach him.What!?
Now I am sure we are playing 2 different games. You are using some story based open system.
If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails).So the Paladin is the O while the Dragon is the Z. X is a free space
OXXZ. Now the Dragon Grapples the Paladin. XXOZ.
How is he up in the air?
The dragon, during my advice/tactics session was flying. The dragon would have been 15 feet up. If the dragon is 15 feet up, and you are adjacent to him, by my logic you are now 10 feet up. Did you really think I was suggesting the dragon land on the ground in front of a paladin and the rest of the party?
Did you really think I was suggesting the dragon land on the ground in front of a paladin and the rest of the party?
Actually I was PLANNING for him to land ON the Paladin (crush), but he never came that far.
(joking)
Cartigan you keep harping on "campaign" issues. This thread is not about the campaign. The thread is to prove that smite was not the issue, and that the battle could have been more difficult if played differently.
Of course this is a stupid thread and Smite isn't an issue, but making random suggestions completely unrelated to the scenario utterly fails to prove that Smite was not an issue in the scenario.
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This is for you Alienfreak since you dont like to pay attention. I said before that the dragon is huge. His bite has 15 feet of reach. Grappling pulls you into an adjacent square meaning the paladin is 10 feet up in the air. Unless that caster has long arms he can't reach him.
Can you point me to the piece of relevant rules that say that the square occupied by the creature now is a three dimensional cube?
If you are right it is impossible to make a critical in meele combat to a dragon, all its vitals are too high to be reachable.You theory that a grappling dragon pull the target 10' into the air is a amusing one, but hardly rules compliant.
Even accepting it:
- dragon is high 15'
- gnome dangle 5' below its head, so it is 10' into the air
- gnome occupy a 5' cube. his feet are 5' above the earth
- human(?) spellcaster reach easily get to 10'.
I see nothing that stop the wizard from teleporting away with the gnome.
The night would have gained them nothing. A Gnome sees perfectly in the night. And you don't know what the rest of the party is made of. If that even matters because the Paladin can perfectly see him.
Still any troubles with Low Light Vision in the need of explaining?
Please explain to me how, on an overcast night, does a gnome with low-light vision see perfectly?
If I am not mistaken, low-light will allow you to see as if iwere daylight out, on a moonlight night.
Necromancer casts "Cloudy night."
Knew what location? If the location was strategically poor for the bad guys (and it was), why would they then Teleport into an ambush?It was the first time in weeks the players left their "mages private sanctum". The baddie (Mokmurian) was foaming mad at them because the players teleported into his stronghold and killed two lamia clerics (and nearly Xanesha, too).
So he reacted.
As to the rest of the remark:
I repeat, I did NOT *nerf* anything. I just did not gave the baddies super-optimal conditions. The way I see it they even had an slight advantage, because they arrived fully buffed.
The rest of the combat WAS fun and challenging, just the dragon dropping in round 1 was a big turn-off.
EDIT:
Also most of the pary hid in a tiny hut 30 ft. away. Only two PCs (including the one the bad guy scryed) were visible. THe bad guys assumed there were only two PCS present.
So the BBEG gets upset, and send his mooks to a bad location. I understand story elements and all, but I would have altered that story or jumped the PC's by going after the bow, and the fighter's sword.
Realistically(assuming this was not a game) I would go after the cleric's holy symbol or the wizard's spell component pouch upon arriving. However it is a game, and the PC's do need a chance at winning.
In short I understand the following orders issue of the BBEG, but my opinion is that next time the bad guys know the fight is coming they cast all their buffs if they are on the offensive so the actual combat time is used to make the PC's feel like they are in trouble. They will also use a range that is not good for the PC's.
Did you really think I was suggesting the dragon land on the ground in front of a paladin and the rest of the party?
Was it you that kept going on about Wind Wall or someone else?
Realistically(assuming this was not a game) I would go after the cleric's holy symbol or the wizard's spell component pouch upon arriving.
Realistically, how would you get either of those in the first place?
I missed the necromancer part. Thanks.Your post saying the bad guys knew the location just threw a wrench in AlienFreak's silly idea though.
He seems to have run out of counters and is resorting to snide comments. I guess I can ignore him until he says something intelligent. I hope his int is over 14 though. You need at least that much to use common sense.
Awww... you are now really making me Awww...
If you were somewhere around here I would now really give you a hug :)So now I need common sense for reading D&D rules as RAW? There is no facing nothing. You get moved to an adjected square of the creature -> you get pulled to it.
Where exactly is your "it gets pulled to the source of the attack and if the enemy is higher than 5ft the grappled character ends up in the air" RAW?And my silly idea is still upping the CR of the dragon to 12. Because he used a scroll he can't have.
Extra equipment -> +1 CR.
Why do you keep assuming the dragon used the scroll when there were two other casters?
As for the grapple rules:
They state you are pulled into an adjacent square. They don't say if you are in the air that does not take place. They also state that if you can not be pulled into the adjacent square the grapple attempt automatically fails. So either a dragon can pull you into the air or flying dragons can't grapple anyone.
As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering his combat options. If you do not have Improved Grapple, grab, or a similar ability, attempting to grapple a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll. If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition (see the Appendices). If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails). ..........
I think the air counts as an open space. :)
Of course this is a stupid thread and Smite isn't an issue, but making random suggestions completely unrelated to the scenario utterly fails to prove that Smite was not an issue in the scenario.Cartigan you keep harping on "campaign" issues. This thread is not about the campaign. The thread is to prove that smite was not the issue, and that the battle could have been more difficult if played differently.
The OP wanted to know what could have been done to make the fight harder<--That is the issue.
Necromancer casts "Cloudy night."
No, he just waits for an overcast night.
Hyla did say that the PCs had gone to a destroyed village to wait for the hit team that they knew was coming. Another few days either way, shouldn't have made a difference in the timeline, but would have in the combat.
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The dragon, during my advice/tactics session was flying. The dragon would have been 15 feet up. If the dragon is 15 feet up, and you are adjacent to him, by my logic you are now 10 feet up. Did you really think I was suggesting the dragon land on the ground in front of a paladin and the rest of the party?
So the dragon teleport (to the ground, no teleport mid air).
Then he take off, move and grapple (with a claw, he can't grapple with a bite).He is in the air, just above the party with the gnome dangling from his claw in easy reach from the other party members.
No problem for them.
And BTW:
Grapple
If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition
Grappled: A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity.
Oops, the dragon has just plummeted to the ground. He has no magical flight and he will not stay airborne if not moving.
Hyla,
will you consider using the tactics that Wraithstrike, myself and others have suggested for the next dragon fight?
He just killed some dragon's young child.
A young child that the mama dragon loved very, very dearly.
You know what to do.
Well, there is an adult red dragon allied with the bad guy.
In the fight with him (depending on what the players do), there will be stone giants rangers, maybe a stone giant fighter (in magical full plate harr harr), or if they are very stupid and/or reckless a stone giant/wizard 14 around. Since the latter will probably lead to a TPK I hope they are not.
I will do my best. ;)
believe me, the stone giant wizard 14 is anything but stupid if we are talking about the same Mokmurian. After 2 disintegrates aimed at players lvl 11 you will see how ridiculously powerful he gets
This is for you Alienfreak since you dont like to pay attention. I said before that the dragon is huge. His bite has 15 feet of reach. Grappling pulls you into an adjacent square meaning the paladin is 10 feet up in the air. Unless that caster has long arms he can't reach him.Can you point me to the piece of relevant rules that say that the square occupied by the creature now is a three dimensional cube?
If you are right it is impossible to make a critical in meele combat to a dragon, all its vitals are too high to be reachable.You theory that a grappling dragon pull the target 10' into the air is a amusing one, but hardly rules compliant.
Even accepting it:
- dragon is high 15'
- gnome dangle 5' below its head, so it is 10' into the air
- gnome occupy a 5' cube. his feet are 5' above the earth
- human(?) spellcaster reach easily get to 10'.I see nothing that stop the wizard from teleporting away with the gnome.
If a dragon is directly overhead but 15 feet up is he not out of reach of you without a ranged weapon?
I am going to assume the answer to this is yes.
The space directly below/adjacent to the dragon is 10 feet up. I think that is logical.
The rules state you have to be in an adjacent square.
Therefore in order to be adjacent to the dragon you have to be 10 feet up. How else can you be adjacent to something that is 15 feet away unless you are 10 feet away?
The head/bite attack has a reach of 15 feet. The other attacks have a reach of 10. That is why I chose the bite attack to do the grapple with.
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Necromancer casts "Cloudy night."No, he just waits for an overcast night.
Hyla did say that the PCs had gone to a destroyed village to wait for the hit team that they knew was coming. Another few days either way, shouldn't have made a difference in the timeline, but would have in the combat.
The party know they are scryed upon. They know that the enemies has plenty of giants and other large stuff.
Guess what? If they have a bit of intelligence they don't sleep outdoor at night. At the very least they will cast Secure shelter and sleep in it. If possible they teleport to a secure location every night.
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The head/bite attack has a reach of 15 feet. The other attacks have a reach of 10. That is why I chose the bite attack to do the grapple with.
I doubt that the dragon can start a grapple with its bite attack.
When a creature can do that it is usually described in its special ability entry or it is self evident (it has only a bite attack and the grab ability).and you still have a grappled dragon that plummet to the ground.
He need the grab ability or the snatch feat to do what you want it to do.
The party know they are scryed upon. They know that the enemies has plenty of giants and other large stuff.
Guess what? If they have a bit of intelligence they don't sleep outdoor at night. At the very least they will cast Secure shelter and sleep in it. If possible they teleport to a secure location every night.
Apparently, the objective was to fight the dragon at a sight of their choosing. From what I understand, it was for poetic reasons that they choose the site of a destoryed village (birth place of one of the PCs, if I remember correctly). So, teleporting away, would only draw the attack to their sleeping location.
Secure Shelter is not secure against giants.
couldn't read anything but I believe Imade my opinion on the topic. Yes, the paladin 1 shotted the dragon. The rogue disarmed a trap created by the SAW guy, the wizard teleported (omg =0), Superman shoots s@*% from his eyes and is faster than a train, do you see where I'm going?
I also think the dragon was terribly overconfident or terribly played (or both). Perhaps you underestimated smite evil. Perhaps the bad guys should wait until they are sleeping (if they are scrying anyway) or use a very stealthy minion to spy on them to ambush them. Perhaps they should bring in hostages so the paladin is grabbed by the balls. "Drop your weapons and surrender or the lvl 1 commoners die". As others said the dragon, with his awesome INT 14 shouldn't RP walk in front of the paladin and say "boo" before the encounter begins.
Want the opposite of all this? Age of worms campaing in dragon (or dungeon ) magazine. Where encounters would run as this "when you went to s&*~ and left your sword in place to grab some paper the big bad CR 18 (when you are lvl 2) appears and tells you "you are f#$@ed", as he realizes the poison he sipped in the lake for 14 years, so subtle as you wouldn't notice, starts making effect right now "i waited for 14 years to happen mwhahaha" and when you were paralyzed , with your pants down, he proceeds to do his thing. Every encounter in age of worms was like this. Scenarios of impossible odds where you had to completely outsmart the DM if you wanted to have a shot. Every single damn encounter you had your pants down for some reason. Imo it's cool when PCs have an easy encounter.
If you think it was the boss fight and that it should be a lot more exciting (for the mobs) use some strategies. Ambush them in favorable terrain, when they are sleeping, when they go to the bathroom, when the ranger goes to hunt and so on. Yes, wands, potions, scrolls are great. Haste and mage armor may not be enough. What about mage armor+ shield + protection from good scrolls + haste + mirror image+ blur scrolls, with it's charisma i bet he could handle the UMD check, or have his friend the caster read it for him. The dragon was not alone as you told us: Xanesha (which isnt exactly easy) and the necro were there too. Even if the pally one shotted the evil party, perhaps in the next module you decide that Mokmurian isn't exactly evil (neutral or ln) so the pally won't one shot your last boss again.
Let players win sometimes, in theory it should be fun for everyone
The head/bite attack has a reach of 15 feet. The other attacks have a reach of 10. That is why I chose the bite attack to do the grapple with.I doubt that the dragon can start a grapple with its bite attack.
When a creature can do that it is usually described in its special ability entry or it is self evident (it has only a bite attack and the grab ability).and you still have a grappled dragon that plummet to the ground.
He need the grab ability or the snatch feat to do what you want it to do.
The grab ability provides bonuses to the combat maneuver and does not allow AoO. That is it. Anyone can attempt to grapple.
Bites are often used to grapple, see dogs and wolves.
The head/bite attack has a reach of 15 feet. The other attacks have a reach of 10. That is why I chose the bite attack to do the grapple with.I doubt that the dragon can start a grapple with its bite attack.
When a creature can do that it is usually described in its special ability entry or it is self evident (it has only a bite attack and the grab ability).and you still have a grappled dragon that plummet to the ground.
He need the grab ability or the snatch feat to do what you want it to do.
I was assuming a regular grapple attack, using a standard action. You don't need or or snatch to grapple. Grab allows you to do it as a free action, and Snatch allows you to do it as a free action also, but with a size limitation.
Nothing restricts a dragon from using the grapple combat maneuver.
edit: Where are you getting the dragon plumetting to the ground from?
The OP wanted to know what could have been done to make the fight harder<--That is the issue.Of course this is a stupid thread and Smite isn't an issue, but making random suggestions completely unrelated to the scenario utterly fails to prove that Smite was not an issue in the scenario.Cartigan you keep harping on "campaign" issues. This thread is not about the campaign. The thread is to prove that smite was not the issue, and that the battle could have been more difficult if played differently.
Saying "It should have happened in a forest or on a boat" doesn't help even the slightest bit because it has nothing to do with the adventure. What if they never go near a boat or a forest? Shall we ban black and green dragons? No desert? No blue dragons. No tundra? No white dragons. I guess the safest place to be from dragons in Pathfinder is on the steppes.
Necromancer casts "Cloudy night."No, he just waits for an overcast night.
His Evil Druid/Ranger buddy tells him one won't happen for weeks as there is a major high pressure system in the area and the weather will be perfectly clear.
Hyla did say that the PCs had gone to a destroyed village to wait for the hit team that they knew was coming. Another few days either way, shouldn't have made a difference in the timeline, but would have in the combat.
See, the hit team should have teleported to the nearest forest or lake and waited until the PCs accidentally stumbled upon them.
The party know they are scryed upon. They know that the enemies has plenty of giants and other large stuff.
Guess what? If they have a bit of intelligence they don't sleep outdoor at night. At the very least they will cast Secure shelter and sleep in it. If possible they teleport to a secure location every night.
Apparently, the objective was to fight the dragon at a sight of their choosing. From what I understand, it was for poetic reasons that they choose the site of a destoryed village (birth place of one of the PCs, if I remember correctly). So, teleporting away, would only draw the attack to their sleeping location.
Secure Shelter is not secure against giants.
It is if the giants can't find it.
Saying "It should have happened in a forest or on a boat" doesn't help even the slightest bit because it has nothing to do with the adventure. What if they never go near a boat or a forest? Shall we ban black and green dragons? No desert? No blue dragons. No tundra? No white dragons. I guess the safest place to be from dragons in Pathfinder is on the steppes.The OP wanted to know what could have been done to make the fight harder<--That is the issue.Of course this is a stupid thread and Smite isn't an issue, but making random suggestions completely unrelated to the scenario utterly fails to prove that Smite was not an issue in the scenario.Cartigan you keep harping on "campaign" issues. This thread is not about the campaign. The thread is to prove that smite was not the issue, and that the battle could have been more difficult if played differently.
It is not about the adventure. It could be CoT or Kingmaker for all this matters. The post is about what could have been done to make the fight more difficult or at the least how to stop smite from owning your big bads.
I was assuming a regular grapple attack, using a standard action. You don't need or or snatch to grapple. Grab allows you to do it as a free action, and Snatch allows you to do it as a free action also, but with a size limitation.
The head/bite attack has a reach of 15 feet. The other attacks have a reach of 10. That is why I chose the bite attack to do the grapple with.I doubt that the dragon can start a grapple with its bite attack.
When a creature can do that it is usually described in its special ability entry or it is self evident (it has only a bite attack and the grab ability).and you still have a grappled dragon that plummet to the ground.
He need the grab ability or the snatch feat to do what you want it to do.
Then why is the Paladin 15' above the ground?
edit: Where are you getting the dragon plumetting to the ground from?
How is the dragon grappling and flying without Snatch?
It is not about the adventure.Saying "It should have happened in a forest or on a boat" doesn't help even the slightest bit because it has nothing to do with the adventure. What if they never go near a boat or a forest? Shall we ban black and green dragons? No desert? No blue dragons. No tundra? No white dragons. I guess the safest place to be from dragons in Pathfinder is on the steppes.The OP wanted to know what could have been done to make the fight harder<--That is the issue.Of course this is a stupid thread and Smite isn't an issue, but making random suggestions completely unrelated to the scenario utterly fails to prove that Smite was not an issue in the scenario.Cartigan you keep harping on "campaign" issues. This thread is not about the campaign. The thread is to prove that smite was not the issue, and that the battle could have been more difficult if played differently.
For certain suggestions, yes, it is.
Cartigan I am not understanding your issues with my grapple idea. Could you explain exactly what you think my rules errors are?
As for the RoTL the advice is purely tactical. WE are not discussing the adventure. This is purely tactics. If it makes it easier lets just say we are doing a gauntlet for the sake of tactical advice to the OP.
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*Logins on messageboards.*
*Sees 220 new posts on the "Smite Evil" thread.*
Really ?
Seriously ?
Just admit you played it wrong, stop taking the "your evil party acted like idiots" comments like a capital offense and deal with it. Lots of suggestions have been given on this thread about how to play an intelligent creature, how to use environment and special abilities (yeah, because these powers aren't only for the cool when they calculate CR, mind you), how to f*ck with archers, how to wait for the good time to act, and how "advantageous environment" for the monsters isn't always upping the challenge since this is a subjective matter = putting a green dragon in a bog and hitting the most dangerous foes first, all the while using terrain to your advantage is NOT giving the dragon a higher CR, it's using it right.
It's like wondering why your giant eagle BBEG was changed into nuggets by the two-handed fighter, only to discover that apparently your eagle was previously buffed by some spells, but for some reason didn't fly. Oh, and the THF had a Eagle Bane Greatsword, and the "I kill eagles for the fun" feat.
Surely the two-handed fighter is too powerful, and the giant eagle's CR, broken.
Or maybe he just didn't fly.
Cartigan I am not understanding your issues with my grapple idea. Could you explain exactly what you think my rules errors are?
The dragon needs Grab or snatch or it is not flying away with the Paladin because it will have the grappled condition. Well, he can spend his grapple every round to keep flying with him.
As for the RoTL the advice is purely tactical. WE are not discussing the adventure. This is purely tactics. If it makes it easier lets just say we are doing a gauntlet for the sake of tactical advice to the OP.
Then you are not disproving Smite was overpowered here and therefore not overpowered in general.
They should have attacked in a forest! is irrelevant and ignorant when discussing the effect of attacking on the plains.
*Logins on messageboards.*
*Sees 220 new posts on the "Smite Evil" thread.*
Really ?
Seriously ?
Just admit you played it wrong, stop taking the "your evil party acted like idiots" comments like a capital offense and deal with it. Lots of suggestions have been given on this thread about how to play an intelligent creature, how to use environment and special abilities (yeah, because these powers aren't only for the cool when they calculate CR, mind you), how to f*ck with archers, how to wait for the good time to act, and how "advantageous environment" for the monsters isn't always upping the challenge since this is a subjective matter = putting a green dragon in a bog and hitting the most dangerous foes first, all the while using terrain to your advantage is NOT giving the dragon a higher CR, it's using it right.It's like wondering why your giant eagle BBEG was changed into nuggets by the two-handed fighter, only to discover that apparently your eagle was previously buffed by some spells, but for some reason didn't fly. Oh, and the THF had a Eagle Bane Greatsword, and the "I kill eagles for the fun" feat.
Surely the two-handed fighter is too powerful, and the giant eagle's CR, broken.Or maybe he just didn't fly.
Forest and water suggestions (or any other environment ones)? Idiotic, irrelevant to scenario.
Wind Wall? Possibly the stupidest thing to do to protect a dragon. It will be a sitting duck unless the ENTIRE PARTY is ranged.Mirror Image, Blur, and Displacement would be good. Along with Greater Invisibility.
It's like wondering why your giant eagle BBEG was changed into nuggets by the two-handed fighter, only to discover that apparently your eagle was previously buffed by some spells, but for some reason didn't fly. Oh, and the THF had a Eagle Bane Greatsword, and the "I kill eagles for the fun" feat.
Surely the two-handed fighter is too powerful, and the giant eagle's CR, broken.Or maybe he just didn't fly.
Stop being ridiculous. Really.
Cartigan I am not understanding your issues with my grapple idea. Could you explain exactly what you think my rules errors are?The dragon needs Grab or snatch or it is not flying away with the Paladin because it will have the grappled condition. Well, he can spend his grapple every round to keep flying with him.
As for the RoTL the advice is purely tactical. WE are not discussing the adventure. This is purely tactics. If it makes it easier lets just say we are doing a gauntlet for the sake of tactical advice to the OP.Then you are not disproving Smite was overpowered here and therefore not overpowered in general.
They should have attacked in a forest! is irrelevant and ignorant when discussing the effect of attacking on the plains.
Now that I think about it having a giant grapple the pally is a better idea. Someone else did say that earlier in the thread.
I don't think smite was overpowered. I think that an archer with enough distance to use a range attack was in an optimal situation, and it negated the buffs that were placed on the bad guys before they arrived.
The surprise round would have been better used for an offensive maneuver instead of a support(casting spells) maneuver.
The forest issue is irrelevant in this case. I do agree with that since I also dont think dragons are always fighting in a favored environment for them.
I don't have the time to read this entire thread, but I think it's pretty bad that a single character has the ability to kill what should be a challenging opponent in a single round. Not by luck, but by law of averages. That's not the kind of game I'd want to run.
Mirror Image, Blur, and Displacement would be good. Along with Greater Invisibility.
Yes, from now on all my dragons and evil outsiders will be choked to death with defensive buffs, so the paladin does not tear them to shreds in round 1. Clearly thats how the game is meant to be played.
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Um...spoiler tag maybe?Vader is Luke's Dad.
Aren't they releasing the 4th or 5th anniversary edition next year? Really.** spoiler omitted **Wasn't in the middle of a volcano. Not taking advantage of his capabilities. CR -10.
** spoiler omitted **** spoiler omitted **
Since we are apparently discussing RoTRL for all of this…
Re: White Dragons
Arkrhyst
Sins of the Savior, pg 18-21
Description of where combat takes place
“From the rocky eastern shoreline of Lake Stormunder, the ground rises into the craggy snow-dappled roots of Rimeskull, casting its long shadow over this area. Yet not all of the ground here is rugged and mountainous. Several hundred feet from the lake’s edge, the land suddenly levels off to create a circular hill. Rocks and tenacious shrubs poke through the scattered clumps of snow here, but they are dwarfed by the ring of seven ten-foot-tall stone heads that circle the hill’s edge, their faces angled inward at each other, mouths agape. To the east, the sheer mountainside of Rimeskull rises, icy and windblasted—two hundred feet above leers a carving of an ancient face, its gaping mouth forming a large cave entrance in the mountainside. A ten-foot-wide stairway of stone descends from this cave to a ledge only fifty feet to the east of the circle of stone faces.
“After shaking the sleep from his eyes, Arkrhyst clambers up from his cave and spies the PCs below. Allow the PCs Spot checks to notice him—but in addition to the modifier for the 200-foot distance (+20 to his Hide check), cover from the cave entrance gives him a further +8 bonus to his Hide check against anyone observing from below.”
“As soon as Arkrhyst sees the PCs approach, he casts resist energy (fire), bull’s strength, mage armor, protection from good, and shield. The effects of these spells are included in his stats.”
“Arkrhyst flies low over PCs (or just above the standing stones) and uses his breath weapon, at the same time relying on his frightful presence to weaken his enemies’ morale. If his opponents scatter, he singles a random opponent out in between rounds when he can breathe and makes either a flyby tail slap or a bite so that he can snatch an opponent, carry him aloft, breathe on him, and drop him from at least 200 feet up
onto the rocks below. If confronted with flying foes, Arkrhyst uses gust of wind to send smaller foes reeling and retreats to his cave above if he finds that their greater mobility is causing him too much trouble.”
“If Arkhryst is reduced to fewer than 100 hit points, he returns to his mountain lair in Rimeskull to heal and rethink his tactics based on the combat abilities displayed by his enemies.”
How do you get to his cave?
“A massive stairway that looks like it must have been built by giants and taken years, if not decades, to complete is chiseled out of the side of the mountain. A twenty-foot-wide and thirty-foot-tall stone arch frames the first steps, while the final steps lead directly up to a carving of an ancient face, its open mouth a cave entrance. The familiar seven-pointed star is etched deeply into its surface, prominently positioned at the highest section of the arch. Bones lie in iced-over heaps along the visible areas of the stairway.”
What do you pass on the way?
C2. The Ice Falls
“The slope ends at the edge of a gaping chasm of darkness. Huge icicles hang from the ceiling and coils of mist rise up from below.”
How is the cave Described?
“The walls of this cavern glitter and sparkle with sheets of ice. Seven twenty-foot-tall pillars, their sides encrusted with ice and engraved with ancient glyphs and runes, surround an eighth pillar twice the size that rises to a needle-like point. Huge tunnels in the walls exit the central cavern, winding deeper into the mountain. Yet perhaps the most notable feature is the sparkling mound of coins, works of art, gemstones, jewelry, weapons, armor, and other things poking up from the pile that occupies the northwestern section of the cavern.
Note the words “Icey” and “Iced over”
So what are you talking about?
Next, the Red Dragon
Longtooth arrives in Round 8 of the attack on Sandpoint, along with 13 stone giants and three dire Bears. He specifically circles and attacks buildings and it says “This is his first real attack on a human settlement, and he spends as much time roaring and periodically landing on the roofs of sturdy buildings to glower and menace as he does actually breathing fire or gulping up fleeing citizens.” and ” Longtooth abandons the raid and flees back to Jorgenfist to lick his wounds in area A5 if reduced to less than 50 hit points.”
Later, if he survives Sandpoint he goes back to his cave, which is “This cave entrance is almost impossible to reach except from the air: the entrance is 450 feet up the side of a near-vertical mountain face.”
Now since Mokmorian was mentioned, I will assume I know what Book this encounter took place in, so I will say
Why the hell would Mokmorian use a Green Dragon, when the only dragon in the book is a Red Dragon? A Red Dragon much better suited for plains attack.
2nd, I am assuming your “steppe” is the valley, which is literally full of a Giant Army that he could march on the PC’s rather than teleporting in a Green Dragon he pulled out of nowhere. And why would he attack them in an open field when they have to go through the mountains to get to the valley…or they are in the valley and he can march an army over to attack them…at range with boulders even.
Why would Mokmurian bother teleporting in a small strike force when he can literally send half of a giant army (or at least one of the tribes outlined on Pg 20-21 and still be safe in his fortress?
Time is on his side, as more and more Giants come to him as time passes and he is just waiting for Karzoug at this point. He would just put the fort on Alert (as outlined in the AP) and move on. There is no reason he would send a small force when he could just march a Dozen or more giants in to do the job.
So at this point I know you went off book picking a Green Dragon and teleporting in to attack the party (that isn’t what is in the book by any stretch, probably because it is a horrible plan…) and that you chose territory within the setting beneficial to the party with an enemy beneficial to the party.
Next time add a bow for that touch of class when you are gifting XP to the party. It’s the small touches that make all the difference.
Back to the topic at hand, smite is awesome, against a single target, a few times a day.
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I don't have the time to read this entire thread, but I think it's pretty bad that a single character has the ability to kill what should be a challenging opponent in a single round. Not by luck, but by law of averages. That's not the kind of game I'd want to run.
Keep in mind it was a hasted character with Dragon Bane arrows fighting a forest dragon who appeared in an open field and allowed a full attack right off the bat because there was no cover or concealment.
It would be like fighting a Bulette in an area where it couldn't burrow.
Yes, from now on all my dragons and evil outsiders will be choked to death with defensive buffs, so the paladin does not tear them to shreds in round 1. Clearly thats how the game is meant to be played.
Mirror Image, Blur, and Displacement would be good. Along with Greater Invisibility.
I am pretty sure you said you spent the first round Greater Invisibilty-ing the Giant. Which could have been done before teleportation if they were going scry-kamikaze. Protection from Arrows is useless against the Paladin, and anyone at 10th level. Wind Wall is useless for the dragon.
But the Paladin is designed to kill evil dragons, undead, and outsiders. Congratulations, you opened a can of worms over a ridiculous issue with the Paladin being really good at basically the most specific, niche thing he is good at.
I don't have the time to read this entire thread, but I think it's pretty bad that a single character has the ability to kill what should be a challenging opponent in a single round. Not by luck, but by law of averages. That's not the kind of game I'd want to run.
Keep in mind it was a hasted character with Dragon Bane arrows fighting a forest dragon who appeared in an open field and allowed a full attack right off the bat because there was no cover or concealment.
It would be like fighting a Bulette in an area where it couldn't burrow.
Or like fighting a White Dragon in an Ice Cave where it can't take advantage of it's ability to fly. Oh wait.
Dragons are rarely used in their best situations. And weren't you just defending Paizo for having a Red Dragon attacking a random settlement in the middle of a plain (you know, not in his cave in a volcano surrounded by magical fires he can pyrotechnic) while in the next (and every) breath criticizing Hyla for basically the same exact scenario but with a Green Dragon instead of a Red?
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Then you are not disproving Smite was overpowered here and therefore not overpowered in general.They should have attacked in a forest! is irrelevant and ignorant when discussing the effect of attacking on the plains.
In the forest the dragon would have gotten cover, if not full concealment against a ranged attacker in an area it has a huge movement and stealth advantage.
If you don't see how this is relevant...
Smite is against a single target a few times a day. It is made for boss fights, and it is very, very powerful.
A few times a day.
Against a single target.
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Stop being ridiculous. Really.
This whole thread is ridiculous. Really.
Just to quote ciretose and Cartigan :
“As soon as Arkrhyst sees the PCs approach, he casts resist energy (fire), bull’s strength, mage armor, protection from good, and shield.”
Keep in mind it was a hasted character with Dragon Bane arrows fighting a forest dragon who appeared in an open field and allowed a full attack right off the bat because there was no cover or concealment.
Congratulations, you opened a can of worms over a ridiculous issue with the Paladin being really good at basically the most specific, niche thing he is good at.
ciretose:
As stated before
- I do not follow the course given in the AP closely but give the players lots of leeway with own plans. This is why the PCs were 1 week north of Kaer Maga and nowhere near the valley you have in mind. This is also why I chose to take the two smaller dragons in Jorgenfist and alter them into a young adult green.
- Also: the terrain was not benefical for anyone, it was oppen steppe. More neutral ground will be hard to find.
- Stop calling teleporting a buffed EL 13 kill team to deal with two lvl 9 PCs stupid. Its not and it frankly sounds as if you trie to insult MY intelligence underhandly. You know nothing about how the session went, partly because you did not bother the thread.
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I don't have the time to read this entire thread, but I think it's pretty bad that a single character has the ability to kill what should be a challenging opponent in a single round. Not by luck, but by law of averages. That's not the kind of game I'd want to run.
A creature is only as challenging as you play it. CR numbers alone dont make challenging encounters.
Yes, from now on all my dragons and evil outsiders will be choked to death with defensive buffs, so the paladin does not tear them to shreds in round 1. Clearly thats how the game is meant to be played.
Mirror Image, Blur, and Displacement would be good. Along with Greater Invisibility.
Actually it is. Everything your monster has in its arsenal is an option that is meant to be used.
Then you are not disproving Smite was overpowered here and therefore not overpowered in general.They should have attacked in a forest! is irrelevant and ignorant when discussing the effect of attacking on the plains.
In the forest the dragon would have gotten cover, if not full concealment against a ranged attacker in an area it has a huge movement and stealth advantage.
If you don't see how this is relevant...
If you can't comprehend how discussing the ability of a green dragon to move in a forest is 100% irrelevant for a campaign scenario (a campaign which may NEVER go NEAR trees) where a dragon is required to attack the adventurers not in a forest, then I don't understand how you can contribute to the thread.
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I don't have the time to read this entire thread, but I think it's pretty bad that a single character has the ability to kill what should be a challenging opponent in a single round. Not by luck, but by law of averages. That's not the kind of game I'd want to run.
Keep in mind it was a hasted character with Dragon Bane arrows fighting a forest dragon who appeared in an open field and allowed a full attack right off the bat because there was no cover or concealment.
It would be like fighting a Bulette in an area where it couldn't burrow.
Or like fighting an White Dragon in and Ice Cave where it can't take advantage of it's ability to fly. Oh wait.
Dragons are rarely used in their best situations. And weren't you just defending Paizo for having a Red Dragon attacking a random settlement in the middle of a plain (you know, not in his cave in a volcano surrounded by magical fires he can pyrotechnic) while in the next (and every) breath criticizing Hyla for basically the same exact scenario but with a Green Dragon instead of a Red?
Oh context, Cartigan's foe
You mean after it already was fighting you in the valley with flyby, or while it was dealing with you going up the Ice Steps (past the Earth Elementals) and over the Ice Falls?
And do you mean the Red Dragon with 13 Stone Giants and 5 Dire Bears?
Do you even have the books?
Everything your monster has in its arsenal is an option that is meant to be used.
Of course. Except all those thing weren't in the dragons arsenal.
Actually it is. Everything your monster has in its arsenal is an option that is meant to be used.Yes, from now on all my dragons and evil outsiders will be choked to death with defensive buffs, so the paladin does not tear them to shreds in round 1. Clearly thats how the game is meant to be played.
Mirror Image, Blur, and Displacement would be good. Along with Greater Invisibility.
You are baselessly asserting all those are in the monster's aresnal.
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ciretose:
As stated before- I do not follow the course given in the AP closely but give the players lots of leeway with own plans. This is why the PCs were 1 week north of Kaer Maga and nowhere near the valley you have in mind. This is also why I chose to take the two smaller dragons in Jorgenfist and alter them into a young adult green.
- Also: the terrain was not benefical for anyone, it was oppen steppe. More neutral ground will be hard to find.
- Stop calling teleporting a buffed EL 13 kill team to deal with two lvl 9 PCs stupid. Its not and it frankly sounds as if you trie to insult MY intelligence underhandly. You know nothing about how the session went, partly because you did not bother the thread.
Open Steppe is a ranged combat player's wet dream. That is hardly neutral, and considering the CR is set up assuming you find the Dragon in his environment and the dragon is ambushing, you shouldn't be going for neutral.
There is no reason to attack a group when it is prepared to be attacked in an environment not to the advantage of the attacker.
None.
Spoiler:You mean after it already was fighting you in the valley with flyby, or while it was dealing with you going up the Ice Steps (past the Earth Elementals) and over the Ice Falls?
It wasn't very effective at attacking us in it's lair in fight parts two and three after being slain in part one. Did your party just sit around getting it's ass handed to it by a White Dragon while climbing a mountain?
And do you mean the Red Dragon with 13 Stone Giants and 5 Dire Bears?
You mean the Young Adult Green Dragon with two Stone Giants (at least one being a caster) and a Lamia Matriarch?
You'd be surprised how little damage Stone Giants do disarmed, caught up in Black Tentacles, and otherwise harried by the party.