Just compare it to a wizard with a hold monster spell and a rod of persistant spell... The dragon has to make two DC~26 saves or fall to it's death. That's a 88% chance to shut it down on the first try, on your first action, without being hasted.
The rod is 32,500 gp and therefore highly unlikely to be found in the hands of an lvl 9 character.
Also you forget the Dragons SR of 22, which (assuming the penetratingspell feat), halves the chance of any spell from a lvl 9 caster to be successful. DC 26 is also VERY high. Assuming Int 24 it should be more like 22, possibly raised by one point or two via spell focus.
All in all the chance for this spell to succeed is probably more like 30%. And even then the dragon is not defeated - he gets a new save each round.
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Just compare it to a wizard with a hold monster spell and a rod of persistant spell... The dragon has to make two DC~26 saves or fall to it's death. That's a 88% chance to shut it down on the first try, on your first action, without being hasted.
The rod is 32,500 gp and therefore highly unlikely to be found in the hands of an lvl 9 character.
Also you forget the Dragons SR of 22, which (assuming the penetratingspell feat), halves the chance of any spell from a lvl 9 caster to be successful. DC 26 is also VERY high. Assuming Int 24 it should be more like 22, possibly raised by one point or two via spell focus.
All in all the chance for this spell to succeed is probably more like 30%. And even then the dragon is not defeated - he gets a new save each round.
However you are overlooking your one trick only works on Dragons, Evil Outsiders and Undead.
And that your character is very mediocre when not smiting, and downright weak if forced into melee.
However you are overlooking your one trick only works on Dragons, Evil Outsiders and Undead.
No it works on ANY evil creature. The double dmg bonus on the first hit does not make that big a difference. Any evil creature means probably around 80% of the foes in a typical campaign, and probably 99% of the BBEGs.
The rod is 32,500 gp and therefore highly unlikely to be found in the hands of an lvl 9 character.
Just compare it to a wizard with a hold monster spell and a rod of persistant spell... The dragon has to make two DC~26 saves or fall to it's death. That's a 88% chance to shut it down on the first try, on your first action, without being hasted.
My APG says 11k, 5.5k crafted. Has that been changed?
Also you forget the Dragons SR of 22, which (assuming the penetratingspell feat), halves the chance of any spell from a lvl 9 caster to be successful. DC 26 is also VERY high. Assuming Int 24 it should be more like 22, possibly raised by one point or two via spell focus.
True that, forgot about SR. Sorry for that.
Don't know where I got 26 from. Damn, that's weird, I double checked the math but now I don't know what I was talking about. It should be 24 (10+5+7+2).All in all the chance for this spell to succeed is probably more like 30%. And even then the dragon is not defeated - he gets a new save each round.
Chance of success is 40% instead (50% chance bypass SR, 80% chance at least one save failed). New save is irrelevant when you're plunging to the ground and helpless though. He'll be killed by the other players before that.
I retract my example. Still, even if it hadn't been shot down by the paladin it wouldn't have been a challenge anyway - replace the paladin with a fighter, wizard, or any other character and even if it wouldn't have died in their action, surely before the others had ended there.
But you're right, the paladin was more effective than the wizard example would be.
Just compare it to a wizard with a hold monster spell and a rod of persistant spell... The dragon has to make two DC~26 saves or fall to it's death. That's a 88% chance to shut it down on the first try, on your first action, without being hasted.
Isn't falling damage still capped at 20d6? 70dmg is nice but hardly lethal for a dragon...
DC 26 is really high...
14 base plus 26 (20 start +2 ability ups +4 headband) Int? Still around 22... even with SF and GSF it will be only at around 24. And thats assuming he did put those Feats into the enchantment school...
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No it works on ANY evil creature. The double dmg bonus on the first hit does not make that big a difference. Any evil creature means probably around 80% of the foes in a typical campaign, and probably 99% of the BBEGs.
However you are overlooking your one trick only works on Dragons, Evil Outsiders and Undead.
Actually it does. I laid out the math a few pages back.
So do the dragon bane arrows.
You aren't really doing much of any damage without these things.
My APG says 11k, 5.5k crafted. Has that been changed?
Hm, thats weird. I checked the list
Its listed at 32,500 gp.
Here, however its listet as 11,000 gp.
The 3,000/11,0000/24,500 gp progression seems to be for +1 SL metamagic effects and the 9,000/32,500/73,000 for +2 SL metamagic effects. Therefore I think that a normal rod of metamagic (persistant) should be 32,500 and the table is right.
No it works on ANY evil creature. The double dmg bonus on the first hit does not make that big a difference. Any evil creature means probably around 80% of the foes in a typical campaign, and probably 99% of the BBEGs.
However you are overlooking your one trick only works on Dragons, Evil Outsiders and Undead.
Actually it does. I laid out the math a few pages back.
So do the dragon bane arrows.
You aren't really doing much of any damage without these things.
The problem is taht especially in premade adventures about 80% of the enemies encountered and 99% of the BBEGs are evil and the later by a chance of 50% even fit into the "greater" smite scheme...
The best 2 things you can do agianst a paladin is:
1. Do not make all enemies and BBEGs evil
2. Don't allow the class ;)
Just compare it to a wizard with a hold monster spell and a rod of persistant spell... The dragon has to make two DC~26 saves or fall to it's death. That's a 88% chance to shut it down on the first try, on your first action, without being hasted.Isn't falling damage still capped at 20d6? 70dmg is nice but hardly lethal for a dragon...
DC 26 is really high...
14 base plus 26 (20 start +2 ability ups +4 headband) Int? Still around 22... even with SF and GSF it will be only at around 24. And thats assuming he did put those Feats into the enchantment school...
Damage isn't even close to that, it's more the paralyzed and grounded state that is relevant. It isn't really a threat down there.
Yes, wrong with the save. It should be 24 int (20 base, +2 ability, +2 headband), so 10 + 5 + 7 + 2 (sf, gsf).
And with 5 feats, putting them into either enchantment or transmutation is a great idea. The transmutation equivalent would be Baleful Polymorph, should you so prefer.
Or, if you like the new dazing spell way, focusing on evocation is now a valid option - using a persistant dazing scorching ray is two or four (depending on interpretation, but two IMO) DC23 Reflex saves or be dazed - not nearly as dangerous, but it's an option.
Actually it does. I laid out the math a few pages back.
No, it does NOT. 9 damage of a total of >130 (mean, max was over 160!), is not a lot by any means.
You aren't really doing much of any damage without these things.
While dragon bane arrows really made a difference. Without them, he would not have dropped the dragon in one round, thats right. But he had them, and I suspect he will stock up on these things next chance he gets.
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No it works on ANY evil creature. The double dmg bonus on the first hit does not make that big a difference. Any evil creature means probably around 80% of the foes in a typical campaign, and probably 99% of the BBEGs.
However you are overlooking your one trick only works on Dragons, Evil Outsiders and Undead.
Actually it does. I laid out the math a few pages back.
So do the dragon bane arrows.
You aren't really doing much of any damage without these things.
The problem is taht especially in premade adventures about 80% of the enemies encountered and 99% of the BBEGs are evil and the later by a chance of 50% even fit into the "greater" smite scheme...
The best 2 things you can do agianst a paladin is:
1. Do not make all enemies and BBEGs evil
2. Don't allow the class ;)
Evil is add your paladin level to damage, in this case +9
A 9th level fighter fighting two handed with a 22 str does +9 on every attack at the same level without using any feats.
Only the three special cases add double, in this case +18.
Our 9th level fighter fighting two handed with a 22 str does +18 when you add power attack.
That is before you add in weapon specialization and the bonuses from weapon training.
Not three times a day. Every. Single. Time.
Without optimizing or adding feats. Barb does more with rage turned on actually.
In this case you got an average of 7 bonus from the dragon bane on top of everything else.
Do the math.
Damage isn't even close to that, it's more the paralyzed and grounded state that is relevant. It isn't really a threat down there.Yes, wrong with the save. It should be 24 int (20 base, +2 ability, +2 headband), so 10 + 5 + 7 + 2 (sf, gsf).
And with 5 feats, putting them into either enchantment or transmutation is a great idea. The transmutation equivalent would be Baleful Polymorph, should you so prefer.
Or, if you like the new dazing spell way, focusing on evocation is now a valid option - using a persistant dazing scorching ray is two or four (depending on interpretation, but two IMO) DC23 Reflex saves or be dazed - not nearly as dangerous, but it's an option.
My point only is that the wizard will still need his party to Coup de Grace or just dmg him until he is dead.
Which is fine in my eyes. Wizard takes his chances and can possibly paralyze him and then the damage dealers step into the calculation and do what they do best. Everyone played his part. Everyone is happy.But the Paladin only needs a wizard buff... aber as soon as he gets some boots of haste he doesn't even need that anymore... He kills it all alone. And thats not okay. And he isn't even overly optimized to be honest...
Also I like Necromancy and Evocation more than Enchantment... but its jsut a personal preference.
Nowadays you will need Spell Penetration and GSP for sure. Everyone and his dog has SR. So you can't put SF&GSF into too many schools, especially if you need some more feats like Craft Wondrous Items and stuff.
Evil is add your paladin level to damage, in this case +9A 9th level fighter fighting two handed with a 22 str does +9 on every attack at the same level without using any feats.
Only the three special cases add double, in this case +18.
Our 9th level fighter fighting two handed with a 22 str does +18 when you add power attack.
That is before you add in weapon specialization and the bonuses from weapon training.
Not three times a day. Every. Single. Time.
Without optimizing or adding feats. Barb does more with rage turned on actually.
In this case you got an average of 7 bonus from the dragon bane on top of everything else.
Do the math.
A 9th level paladin does +18 damage on every attack without using feats and has at least +3 more to hit.
A 9th level power attacking Paladin with THW does +27 plus has at least +3 more to hit.So he only deals 50% more damage (counting in only the plus on damage) while hitting more often (especially with his second follow up attack) which will increase the number accordingly.
Not to mention our Ranged Paladin has +9 on all his 4 Ranged Attacks and will deal your bonus damage you have for being a low AC guy and in melee with his bonus smite damage alone. Not to mention deadly aim and his +x Str bow he can have..
Plus he has a high AC and stands comfortably in the back...
A 9th level fighter fighting two handed with a 22 str does +9 on every attack at the same level without using any feats.
Yeah, but only in melee. And the corresponding melee paladin would probably have STR at least 18.
EDIT: What alienfreak says.
What I also probably should have said already is that our group dislikes grinding. Ideally every combat should be climatic and mean s.th. storywise. I therefore often skip smaller combats and in turn boost the bigger fights somewhat. That leads to the dreaded "15 minute day", and the fact that the paladin pretty much never is out of smites.
That exacerbates the situation a bit.
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Actually it does. I laid out the math a few pages back.
No, it does NOT. 9 damage of a total of >130 (mean, max was over 160!), is not a lot by any means.
While dragon bane arrows really made a difference. Without them, he would not have dropped the dragon in one round, thats right. But he had them, and I suspect he will stock up on these things next chance he gets.
You aren't really doing much of any damage without these things.
You fail at math.
You were hitting about 50/50.
1d8 +1 longbow = 5.5 average
Smite = 9
Deadly Aim = 6
5.5 + 6 = Normal damage is going to be 11.5 with deadly aim. Not impressive and not likely to hit since that would also mean -3 off of your normal attacks. So without smite...kind of lame.
With smile (only 3 times a day against a single target) you are at +21.5 to damage and +3 to hit (-3 for deadly aim +6 from Charisma) with a +30.5 for the first attack.
You have to hit on all 5 to drop it, baring crits. And you won't because it has an AC 28 (with any kind of prep) and you have BaB 9, +4 from Dex (13) +1 from the weapon (14) + 6 from charisma (20) - 3 from deadly aim (17).
Now add in the dragon bane and you are now at +19 to hit and add an extra 7 damage to each attack. You go from just under 50/50 hit to just over 50/50 to hit.
And that is in an open field, not in the forest where the dragon would get concealment and/or cover.
Again, 3 times a day you are very effective against a single target under optimal conditions.
The problem is taht especially in premade adventures about 80% of the enemies encountered and 99% of the BBEGs are evil and the later by a chance of 50% even fit into the "greater" smite scheme...
The best 2 things you can do agianst a paladin is:
1. Do not make all enemies and BBEGs evil
2. Don't allow the class ;)
Note that even against evil enemies, the paladin's smite deals only slightly more than a fighter would. Against team evil they rock, against normal evil they're really good (just like a fighter or barbarian is really good) and against others, they're kinda "meh".
But I agree that more non-evil enemies are needed. Looking through ROTRL part 1:
[spoiler]
This is through a quick glance, might have missed something but it should give a hint.
Encounters with only evil: 21
Encounters with only non-evil: 7 + (1) (boar hunt)
Mixed encounters: 3
Non-evil minibosses: 2/5
Non-evil BBEGs: 0/4
So about one fourth of the encounters where neutral, but none of the BBEG.
This surely is an issue, and I think it would have been easy to fit more neutral creatures into the story. Several of the characters that are evil could have been "neutral with an evil bent" (just like most people are "neutral with a good bent"). Perhaps the evil descriptor is simply used too lightly.
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Evil is add your paladin level to damage, in this case +9A 9th level fighter fighting two handed with a 22 str does +9 on every attack at the same level without using any feats.
Only the three special cases add double, in this case +18.
Our 9th level fighter fighting two handed with a 22 str does +18 when you add power attack.
That is before you add in weapon specialization and the bonuses from weapon training.
Not three times a day. Every. Single. Time.
Without optimizing or adding feats. Barb does more with rage turned on actually.
In this case you got an average of 7 bonus from the dragon bane on top of everything else.
Do the math.
A 9th level paladin does +18 damage on every attack without using feats and has at least +3 more to hit.
A 9th level power attacking Paladin with THW does +27 plus has at least +3 more to hit.
"Once per day, a paladin can call out to the powers of good to aid her in her struggle against evil. As a swift action, the paladin chooses one target within sight to smite. If this target is evil, the paladin adds her Cha bonus (if any) to her attack rolls and adds her paladin level to all damage rolls made against the target of her smite. If the target of smite evil is an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature, the bonus to damage on the [b]first successful attack[b] increases to 2 points of damage per level the paladin possesses. Regardless of the target, smite evil attacks automatically bypass any DR the creature might possess."
On one attack they do +18. If it is am evil dragon, undead, or evil outsider.
On the rest they do +9.
Three times a day. Against a single target.
"Once per day, a paladin can call out to the powers of good to aid her in her struggle against evil. As a swift action, the paladin chooses one target within sight to smite. If this target is evil, the paladin adds her Cha bonus (if any) to her attack rolls and adds her paladin level to all damage rolls made against the target of her smite. If the target of smite evil is an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature, the bonus to damage on the [b]first successful attack[b] increases to 2 points of damage per level the paladin possesses. Regardless of the target, smite evil attacks automatically bypass any DR the creature might possess."On one attack they do +18. If it is am evil dragon, undead, or evil outsider.
On the rest they do +9.
Three times a day. Against a single target.
This ability lasts a whole day. So they can do it against three targets per day. Don't try to make this ability look bad by leaving out the interesting part in the bottom ;)
This ability lasts a whole day. So they can do it against three targets per day. Don't try to make this ability look bad by leaving out the interesting part in the bottom ;)
Everyone discussing this here knows that already. No point in pointing out the obvious.
You fail at math.
You were hitting about 50/50.
You sir, are quite rude. The funny thing is: YOU fail at math. I have given the correct calculations above, if you are interested.
Allow me a hint: The Paladin was NOT hitting 50/50 with his highest AB (which he got to do damage with four times: regular, haste, rapid shot, manyshot). This was +9 BAB +6 Cha +4 dex +3 magic +1 size +1 haste - 2 rapid = 22.
Meaning a 95% hit chance gainst the unbuffed dragons AC of 24 and still a 75% hit chance against the buffed one of 28.
Deadly aim reduces this to 80%/60%.
EDIT: Darn, edited. I actually miscalculated. Now its correct. :)
EDIT: DARN. Now its correct.
You fail at math.
You were hitting about 50/50.
You sir, are quite rude. The funny thing is: YOU fail at math. I have given the correct calculations above, if you are interested.
Allow me a hint: The Paladin was NOT hitting 50/50 with his highest AB (which he got to do damage with four times: regular, haste, rapid shot, manyshot). This was +9 BAB +6 Cha +4 dex +3 magic +1 size +1 haste = 25.
Meaning a 95% hit chance gainst the unbuffed dragons AC of 24 and still a 90% hit chance against the buffed one of 28.
Deadly aim reduces this by 15%.
Why isn't his dex applied on the ranged attack?
Edit: You are one sneaky quickediter... I give you that ;)
Why isn't his dex applied on the ranged attack?
But it is. :)
Everyone discussing this here knows that already. No point in pointing out the obvious.
This ability lasts a whole day. So they can do it against three targets per day. Don't try to make this ability look bad by leaving out the interesting part in the bottom ;)
On one attack they do +18. If it is am evil dragon, undead, or evil outsider.On the rest they do +9.
Three times a day. Against a single target.
This reads as once +18 per use. So 3 times a day. But actually its +18 EVERY round against that baddor.
Btw.: Smite Damage is multiplied on a crit or?
*dreams of a 15-20 crit falchion*
This reads as once +18 per use. So 3 times a day. But actually its +18 EVERY round against that baddor.
No thats not correct. Its the FIRST ATTACK, not the first attack of each round.
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This ability lasts a whole day. So they can do it against three targets per day. Don't try to make this ability look bad by leaving out the interesting part in the bottom ;)
"Once per day, a paladin can call out to the powers of good to aid her in her struggle against evil. As a swift action, the paladin chooses one target within sight to smite. If this target is evil, the paladin adds her Cha bonus (if any) to her attack rolls and adds her paladin level to all damage rolls made against the target of her smite. If the target of smite evil is an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature, the bonus to damage on the [b]first successful attack[b] increases to 2 points of damage per level the paladin possesses. Regardless of the target, smite evil attacks automatically bypass any DR the creature might possess."On one attack they do +18. If it is am evil dragon, undead, or evil outsider.
On the rest they do +9.
Three times a day. Against a single target.
Excuse me, three targets a day.
Against everyone else this paladin is +14/+9 or +12/+12/+7
Against everyone else this paladin is +14/+9 or +12/+12/+7
You fail again good sir (if in a more minor way this time). Don't forget the size bonus!!
Also: Three targets a day are plenty in my experience. When it counts, a clever paladin WILL have a smite left. Except maybe in the most grinding dungeon campaigns.
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You fail at math.
You were hitting about 50/50.
You sir, are quite rude. The funny thing is: YOU fail at math. I have given the correct calculations above, if you are interested.
Allow me a hint: The Paladin was NOT hitting 50/50 with his highest AB (which he got to do damage with four times: regular, haste, rapid shot, manyshot). This was +9 BAB +6 Cha +4 dex +3 magic +1 size +1 haste = 25.
Meaning a 95% hit chance gainst the unbuffed dragons AC of 24 and still a 90% hit chance against the buffed one of 28.
Deadly aim reduces this by 15% to 95%/75%.
EDIT: Darn, edited. I actually miscalculated. Now its correct. :)
You are right, I forgot haste.
However you forgot -3 for deadly aim and -2 for rapid shot.
I have no idea what you are talking about with the +1 for size. You get a +1 to AC for size, the dragons size is already calculated into the formula.
Also, just to clear up your math
9 + 6 =15
15+ 4 =19
19+ 1 size =20
19 +1 (magic) = 21
20 +1 (haste) = 22
21 +2 (Bane) =24
Size...I have no idea.
23-2 (rapid shot) = 22
23-3 (deadly aim) = 19
Take away the dragon bane = 17
Dragon surprised is 24, Dragon most of the time is 28.
Did I miss anything?
EDIT: Wow, I never new about the size thing. Weird. I will add +1 to all of that.
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Against everyone else this paladin is +14/+9 or +12/+12/+7
You fail again good sir (if in a more minor way this time). Don't forget the size bonus!!
Also: Three targets a day are plenty in my experience. When it counts, a clever paladin WILL have a smite left. Except maybe in the most grinding dungeon campaigns.
I thank you for showing me the size thing, I never play gnomes or halflings so I never noticed before.
However if you only fight three things a day...
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My APG says 11k, 5.5k crafted. Has that been changed?
Hm, thats weird. I checked the list
Its listed at 32,500 gp.
Here, however its listet as 11,000 gp.
The 3,000/11,0000/24,500 gp progression seems to be for +1 SL metamagic effects and the 9,000/32,500/73,000 for +2 SL metamagic effects. Therefore I think that a normal rod of metamagic (persistant) should be 32,500 and the table is right.
It has been changed:
Page 295—In Table 7–8: Rods, change the cost of the following rods to the listed amount and reorganize to their proper alphabetical location: Metamagic, persistent, lesser “9,000 gp”, Metamagic, bouncing, lesser “3,000 gp”, Metamagic, persistent “32,500 gp”, Metamagic, bouncing “11,000 gp”, Metamagic, persistent, greater “73,000 gp”, Metamagic, bouncing, greater “24,500 gp.”
you can find the link to the errata in the APG page.
Or you can follow his link to get directly the errata.
You are right, I forgot haste.However you forgot -3 for deadly aim and -2 for rapid shot.
Oh wow. I really forget rapid shot (deadly aim is accounted for, which you can see if you look at my post again). EDIT: I even editet it for rapid shot!
Still, 60%/80%.
It has been changed:
Thanks! Ok, then the rod is well within means of a 9 lvl wizards.
Smite isn't too great.
Please do the math for haste and dragon bane+haste WITHOUT smite. That would be nice! I don't have the time atm.
2 things:
This is the best thread ever.
Hyla is my hero.
I'm going to take a serious stab at the maths involved, and I'll try to be as unbiased as possible.
So what we have in feats are: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Precise Shot.
Stats are Str 10, Dex 18, Con 22.
Attack routine is:
+22/+22/+22/+17
+9 BAB +6 Cha +3 magic +1 size +1 haste +4 dex -2 rapid shot
Damage per shot is 1d6 + 9 (lvl) + 3 enhancement + 2d6 bane. On first hit, double weapon damage. On first hit against team evil, +9 damage.
Average first shot damage against dragon is 7+27+6+14 = 54. Ouch, that's gotta hurt. Average secondary shots are 3.5+9+6+7=27.5. That's still good.
DPR against this dragon:
.75 * 54 + .05*.75*(59) = 42.7
.75 * 27.5 + .05*.75(41) = 22.1625
.75 * 27.5 + .05*.75(41) = 22.1625
.50 * 27.5 + .05*.50(41) = 14.77500
Average DPR per round against this dragon: ~101.5.
So killing it in one turn is getting lucky. Your player certainly rolled above average. Certainly not impossible, but requires a crit or so. This paladin is dragon mayhem, no doubt.
How does he fare against other opponents?
Let's say another Team Evil CR 11 opponent... A barbed devil. Something the paladin should be expert at killing. It has about the average hit points and AC for a CR 11 monster according to the guidelines (~10 less hp, one more AC).
Chance to hit:
+9 BAB +6 Cha +1 magic +1 size +4 dex +1 haste -2 rapid shot = +20
Damage per shot: 1d6 + 9 smite + 1 enhancement = 13.5
First shot: 2d6+27 smite + 2 enhancement = 36
DPR:
(.75 * 36 + 0.05*0.75 * 54) +
(.75 * 13.5 + 0.05*0.75 * 27) +
(.75 * 13.5 + 0.05*0.75 * 27) +
(.3 * 13.5 + 0.05*0.3 * 27) = 55.75
Still quite nice, but not nearly as good. You'd think it should be better against Team Evil, but it'll sink it in 3 turns which is good.
Against, some other encounter CR 11, say, 3 Dire Tigers?
Chance to hit:
+9 BAB +1 magic +1 size +4 dex +1 haste -2 rapid shot = +14
Damage per shot: 1d6 + 1 enhancement.
Damage first shot: 2d6 + 2 enhancement.
DPR:
(.9 * 9 * .05*.9 * 18) +
(.9 * 4.5 * .05*.9*9) +
(.9 * 4.5 * .05*.9*9) +
(.65 * 4.5 * .05*.9*9) = 11.026125
This is unplayably low. You'll take 30 turns to kill them all, on average.
Yes, this character that is _completely focused at killing dragons and nothing else_ kicks dragon but when confronted in an open field. And thank god for that, as he's pretty incompetent at anything else but healing (which I'll readily admit he's pretty good at).
Compare to a human fighter:
Fighter has Str 20, Dex 20
Feats: 1 point blank shot, 1 deadly aim, 1 precise shot; 2 rapid shot; 3 weapon focus; 4 weapon specialization; 5 iron will; 6 manyshot; 7 nimble moves; 8 improved critical.
Base attack routine is:
9 bab + 5 dex + 1 enhancement + 2 greater focus + 2 weapon training -2 rapid shot = +17/+17/+17/+12
Base damage is:
1d8 + 5 str + 2 weapon training +1 enhancement + 2 specialization = 14.5
Except first hit which does 29 damage.
Against dragon, attack routine is +20/+20+/+20/+15, and damage is 14.5+2+2d6=23.5. First shot damage is 47.
DPR against the dragon:
.65*47 + .1*.65*33 = 32.69500
.65*23.5 + .1*.65*33 = 17.42
.65*23.5 + .1*.65*33 = 17.42
.4*23.5 + .1*.4*33 = 10.72
Total damage = ~78 damage.
Will not drop the dragon in one turn unless extremely lucky, but very likely to do so in two turns. The paladin is far better than the fighter.
DPR against the barbed devil:
Here he uses Deadly Aim to cream out a little more damage. His attack is thus +14 and his damage 20.5.
.45*41 + .1*.45*41 = 20.29500
.45*20.5 + .1*.45*41 = 11.07
.45*20.5 + .1*.45*41 = 11.07
.2*20.5 + .1*.2*41 = 4.92
Total damage = ~46
Lower than the paladin, but in the same ballpark. Really suffers from using a bad weapon, having few ways to increase his DPR. If both had +2 weapons I think the paladin would have gained far less than the fighter from it. Both will take around 3 turns to drop the devil, but the fighter has far less marginals when it comes to rolling bad.
DPR against the Dire Tigers:
Again, deadly aim:
(.9*41 + .1*.9*41) +
(.9*20.5 + .1*.9*41) +
(.9*20.5 + .1*.9*41) +
(.65*20.5 + .1*.65*41) = 100.86
Here the paladin is basically useless, while the fighter drops an enemy per turn.
tl;dr:
Paladin DPR vs dragon: 101
Paladin DPR vs barbed devil: 56
Paladin DPR vs 3 dire tigers: = 11
Fighter DPR vs dragon: 78
Paladin DPR vs barbed devil: 46
Paladin DPR vs 3 dire tigers: = 101
I'd assume against regular evil, or against team evil where the individuals aren't as strong, that the fighter and paladin would be about equal, but I don't have patience for more maths now.
Paladin
While hasted and with bane arrows and smite
Attack: 9 bab +6 cha +3 magic +1 size +1 haste -3 DA +4 dex -2rapid shot =19/19/19/19/14
DMG: 3,5bow +9 smite +6 DA +7 bane +3 magic= 28,5(37,5)
DPR vs ac 28: 86,21(92,15)
Zormo, your math seems to be off. First of all, the paladin can't have deadly aim as it's four feats are eaten by point blank shot, rapid shot, many shot and precise shot. There's no room for deadly aim.
Second, you don't seem to calculate critical hits. See my above formula for how to calculate damage (you have to do some extra work for the critical, excluding dragon bane 2d6 damage and such).EDIT: As a small notion, it'd be great if you could spoiler the maths into categories. Far easier to read then.
Mostly tl;dr but on the relevant topic:
A 9th level paladin has 5 feats without any bonus. 4 feats is 3.5.
Sorry 'bout that, I blame fever. Deadly aim thus fits. I'll have to redo calculations. *sigh*
EDIT: Updated previous post for paladin DA. DA is a penalty when used against the dragon.
Mostly tl;dr but on the relevant topic:
A 9th level paladin has 5 feats without any bonus. 4 feats is 3.5.
Sorry 'bout that, I blame fever. Deadly aim thus fits. I'll have to redo calculations. *sigh*
EDIT: Updated previous post for paladin DA. DA is a penalty when used against the dragon.
Heh... I also started some calculations... but as I finished I saw that I was one point off in the to hit... meh... /nomotivation
I noticed that one too... Your to hit will drop so low that its no advantage against the dragon...
Paladin
...Fighter
...
Thanks! I guess that proves that indeed smite is not to blame.
Something I'm wondering about : since Manyshot explicitely says it is ONE attack, shouldn't Smite Evil deal double damage on the two arrows ?
Each arrow benefits from it separately as if it were its own attack.
Manyshot (Combat)
You can fire multiple arrows at a single target.
Prerequisites: Dex 17, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When making a full-attack action with a bow, your first attack fires two arrows. If the attack hits, both arrows hit. Apply precision-based damage (such as sneak attack) and critical hit damage only once for this attack. Damage bonuses from using a composite bow with a high Strength bonus apply to each arrow, as do other damage bonuses, such as a ranger's favored enemy bonus. Damage reduction and resistances apply separately to each arrow.
Only things called out as precision based damage only apply once.
Smite evil can be powerful, but it's not impossible to overcome. A smart party will rely on the paladin and buff him/her as best they can to take care of the threat. In a 3.5 game we were playing, the wizard and the bard basically buffed my wife's paladin with everything they had then stood back and chuckled while she defeated a fairly powerful demon in a few rounds. That's because they understood that she was built for this threat, and the best thing they could do was keep buffing her.
That's not how it turns out with every foe. As stated, Neutral threats cannot be overcome this way. More to the point, a smart GM looks for a negotiating tool. A clever demon might grab a hostage, for instance, if he finds he is in dire straits. He could escape and come back stronger and with some kind of resistance.
Remember, not every challenge is directed at the players. The GM also faces challenge, when goes up against smart players who do unpredictable things, or who know their characters well.
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Something I'm wondering about : since Manyshot explicitely says it is ONE attack, shouldn't Smite Evil deal double damage on the two arrows ?Each arrow benefits from it separately as if it were its own attack.
Yes, I know about this, the question is more "do the two arrows shot in the first attack of a smite deal double smite damage".
Since Deflect Arrows deflects both arrows from Manyshot, I think it's safe to say the wording about "one attack" is clear enough and they actually do : here, it's 36 damage on the first attack of a full-round action just with the smite of a level 9 paladin against a dragon (2x(9x2)).
Something I'm wondering about : since Manyshot explicitely says it is ONE attack, shouldn't Smite Evil deal double damage on the two arrows ?Each arrow benefits from it separately as if it were its own attack.
Yes, I know about this, the question is more "do the two arrows shot in the first attack of a smite deal double smite damage".
Since Deflect Arrows deflects both arrows from Manyshot, I think it's safe to say the wording about "one attack" is clear enough and they actually do : here, it's 36 damage on the first attack of a full-round action just with the smite of a level 9 paladin against a dragon (2x(9x2)).
I understand now. Yes they do since they are only "one attack".
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I understand now. Yes they do since they are only "one attack".Something I'm wondering about : since Manyshot explicitely says it is ONE attack, shouldn't Smite Evil deal double damage on the two arrows ?Each arrow benefits from it separately as if it were its own attack.
Yes, I know about this, the question is more "do the two arrows shot in the first attack of a smite deal double smite damage".
Since Deflect Arrows deflects both arrows from Manyshot, I think it's safe to say the wording about "one attack" is clear enough and they actually do : here, it's 36 damage on the first attack of a full-round action just with the smite of a level 9 paladin against a dragon (2x(9x2)).
Conversely, you can't ever have a critical smite on that first attack if you use manyshot