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I have asked several times: HOW? Please describe the environment and the tactics the dragon could have conceivably utilized to make the fight difficult.Please do NOT rely on an assload of buff spells the dragon has bought scrolls for.
The answers that people have given you in this thread range from having the dragon teleport in on top of the party, teleport in at night, use illusion of some sort to ambush the party (silent image?)...
Teleporting in during a storm would work well.
Since the dragon isn't in a forest and can't hide as well, how about hiding behind a hill or in a gully?
It can cast level 1 spells even without using any of the treasure it is supposed to have. How about Mage armor, obscuring mist, shield?
The suggestion of teleporting in and grappling the richer during the surprise round is probably the most effective, though. It would take help from the rest if the party to deal wih that.

Hyla |

Hyla wrote:(range: personal - also shield).Scroll - no fail.
So in your opinion a dragon needs lots of scrolls to survive. I can't really tell you how much I do not like this.
Aside from the problems with the fact that a freaking DRAGON is going to be smoked in one round by a character two levels lower than its CR, if he does not have a lot of buffs active that he does not have access to according to its monster page (of course its treasure COULD include these scrolls - but it also could be just a heap of coins).
Also it means a lot of work for the GM. Sometimes the time for preparing a session is really limited, due to work / family constraints. I think it would be good if you could just pick a site from the MM and go for it - and not to be forced to elabourously make up an ambush which is super-disadvantegeous for the players and give thoughts to lots and lots of buffs and equipment the monster is going to use.

lastblacknight |
I can imagine no possible scenario where this dragon (alone) could have presented any challenge whatsoever against the party.
That's the issue - the attack had no imagination. sorry but it didn't.
A party of PC's that powerful is going to have a reputation; use some of the hoard to pay thieves to steal a bow... what til there is some cover to attack from, play to you teams strengths not their weaknesses etc..
Seriously.. it isn't about the Paladin or the smite. (as everyone else is commenting).
Don't rush yourself with the next encounter, if it's a big bad then let the suspense build and think through the combat, location, time of day etc..

Jezai |
I would have had the fight somewhere else or changed the dragon to one that could take advantage of the environment. Have the lamia buff, and drop any useless spells the lamia had. Having the giant try to pound the paladins face in is also an option. I dont think he will be shooting arrows at a dragon with two giants breathing down his neck.If the paladin is melee based attack from outside of its range. If the paladin is archery based then go melee with him.
I disagree, unless the giants could really bring the pain I personally would just take two AOO's to one-round the dragon, with the dragon down my party members could help me with the giants.

Hyla |

Another point:
With no paladin in the party the fight would have worked pretty well.
I have somewhat accepted, that undead are no real threat if a cleric is in the party.
I refuse to accept that any evil solo monster (expecially dragons & evil outsiders, which tend to be solo enemies) is no real threat anymore as soon as a paladin is in the party-

wraithstrike |

wraithstrike wrote:
What do you consider to be cutt throat? As I said before the CR chart assumes you are not holding back so the more holding back you want to do the higher the CR the fight should be so you have more leeway.This is important because the players wont be holding back.
The question is: Is not selecting a range of chosen buffs on scrolls for a dragon, useful for him for exactly one combat holding back?
My thought is that doing so (selecting all the suggested buffing scrolls and allowing the dragon to enter the combat fully buffed - mind that he not normally has access to teleport!) should significantly RAISE the CR.
To my mind it works (or should work) that way: Pick a monster from the bestiary, go for it with what you find right there, on the monster page - that shold give you an encounter with approximately the CR you are going to find there.
Allowing the monster to elaboratly prepare for the PCs, get a surprise round, or HUGELY favourable terrain (attack while the PCs are climbing a cliff - come on!) should RAISE the CR. Thats even the way its described in the MM (or Core?).
You also have to take into account the dragon bane arrows and a paladin (archer) who knew what was coming. Just knowing what you are fighting can effectively(not officially) lower a CR.
You got a surprise round and used it on buffs. They should all have been cast right before the teleport. That way they use the surprise round to attack or get into position, assuming you don't want to teleport right next to the party.
By having them a distance away, and using the surprise round to cast spells the party was in no way hindered. Init was rolled and then it was just a normal fight.
You never mentioned the climbing a mountain or either I missed it. How is the pally shooting anything? It takes two hands to fire a bow, and also take hands to climb. The dragon should have bullrushed him off the cliff so he could take buttloads of falling damage.
In short a surprise round is not enough. What you do with it is what matters. You also have to take the group into consideration. I often have a ballpark estimate of my players bonus to attack rolls, saves, and so on. If the baddie has an AC of 27, but the pally has a +17 to hit I know I need to raise the AC as an example or debuff the pally/fighter/ranger/etc.

Hyla |

Don't rush yourself with the next encounter, if it's a big bad then let the suspense build and think through the combat, location, time of day etc..
Sorry, but I tend to go with what the players do and not force specific cisumstances upon them. I did not pick the spot, the players did. They pissed off the big bad and knew a kill team was being send. So they decided to go into the open steppe (to a place where the dragon had destroyed a village of the people one of the PCS came from - I thought this was a nice idea) and waited.

Hyla |

You never mentioned the climbing a mountain or either I missed it. How is the pally shooting anything? It takes two hands to fire a bow, and also take hands to climb. The dragon should have bullrushed him off the cliff so he could take buttloads of falling damage.
Somebody suggested this.
But the players simply did not climb any mountains. Also no swamps and forests in the immediate future....

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ShadowcatX wrote:Hyla wrote:(range: personal - also shield).Scroll - no fail.So in your opinion a dragon needs lots of scrolls to survive. I can't really tell you how much I do not like this.
Aside from the problems with the fact that a freaking DRAGON is going to be smoked in one round by a character two levels lower than its CR, if he does not have a lot of buffs active that he does not have access to according to its monster page (of course its treasure COULD include these scrolls - but it also could be just a heap of coins).
Also it means a lot of work for the GM. Sometimes the time for preparing a session is really limited, due to work / family constraints. I think it would be good if you could just pick a site from the MM and go for it - and not to be forced to elabourously make up an ambush which is super-disadvantegeous for the players and give thoughts to lots and lots of buffs and equipment the monster is going to use.
I notice you specifically do not reply to the suggestions I made that don't require scrolls, that only require the monster to be played intelligently. That tells me everything I need to know. Its reinforced by your third paragraph which states (paraphrased) "Thinking is too hard."
There are things designed for DMs who don't have a lot of time, they have like, story lines in them and monsters and suggestions on how to use the monsters and stuff. They're called APs. Run them if you don't have the time to do a session. Sloppy / lazy DM work is not an excuse to call something over powered.

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ShadowcatX wrote:
I can imagine no possible scenario where this dragon (alone) could have presented any challenge whatsoever against the party.
That's the issue - the attack had no imagination. sorry but it didn't.
A party of PC's that powerful is going to have a reputation; use some of the hoard to pay thieves to steal a bow... what til there is some cover to attack from, play to you teams strengths not their weaknesses etc..
Seriously.. it isn't about the Paladin or the smite. (as everyone else is commenting).
Don't rush yourself with the next encounter, if it's a big bad then let the suspense build and think through the combat, location, time of day etc..
Please note, I did not say that. You should be more careful with the quotes.

wraithstrike |

wraithstrike wrote:
What do you consider to be cutt throat? As I said before the CR chart assumes you are not holding back so the more holding back you want to do the higher the CR the fight should be so you have more leeway.This is important because the players wont be holding back.
The question is: Is not selecting a range of chosen buffs on scrolls for a dragon, useful for him for exactly one combat holding back?
My thought is that doing so (selecting all the suggested buffing scrolls and allowing the dragon to enter the combat fully buffed - mind that he not normally has access to teleport!) should significantly RAISE the CR.
To my mind it works (or should work) that way: Pick a monster from the bestiary, go for it with what you find right there, on the monster page - that shold give you an encounter with approximately the CR you are going to find there.
Allowing the monster to elaboratly prepare for the PCs, get a surprise round, or HUGELY favourable terrain (attack while the PCs are climbing a cliff - come on!) should RAISE the CR. Thats even the way its described in the MM (or Core?).
I forgot to add grappling or tripping the pally may have also happened. Another option is disarming him. You could use the giants to do that most likely.

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lastblacknight wrote:
Don't rush yourself with the next encounter, if it's a big bad then let the suspense build and think through the combat, location, time of day etc..
Sorry, but I tend to go with what the players do and not force specific cisumstances upon them. I did not pick the spot, the players did. They pissed off the big bad and knew a kill team was being send. So they decided to go into the open steppe (to a place where the dragon had destroyed a village of the people one of the PCS came from - I thought this was a nice idea) and waited.
So the BBEG did exactly what the players wanted, he attacked them when the players wanted, where the players wanted, and how.
Personally, I'd have been thrilled, were I the BBEG, to leave the meddling PCs to meddle in the field far away from everything I was doing while waiting for me to attack. I'd let them run out of food and water, get weak and die from starvation / thirst, and then late at night, send in a couple goblins to coup de grace their dead bodies and bring me their magic items. No need to give the dragon hazard pay.

Hyla |

I notice you specifically do not reply to the suggestions I made that don't require scrolls, that only require the monster to be played intelligently. That tells me everything I need to know. Its reinforced by your third paragraph which states (paraphrased) "Thinking is too hard."
There are things designed for DMs who don't have a lot of time, they have like, story lines in them and monsters and suggestions on how to use the monsters and stuff. They're called APs. Run them if you don't have the time to do a session. Sloppy / lazy DM work is not an excuse to call something over powered.
I repeat myself:
Sorry, but I tend to go with what the players do and not force specific cisumstances upon them. I did not pick the spot, the players did. They pissed off the big bad and knew a kill team was being send. So they decided to go into the open steppe (to a place where the dragon had destroyed a village of the people one of the PCS came from - I thought this was a nice idea) and waited.FYI: Thee events I described took place in the scope of RotR. And you are starting to make me angry. I spent a lot of my quite scarce spare timne to prepare for my sessions, but I refuse to railroad my players into the encounters described in the AP books if the take a different course of action. So there are often sitations I do have exactly two minutes to prepare for during the session. That makes me a lazy DM?
Also the encounters in RotR do NOT generally make use of elaborate tactics / hugely favourable circumstances that were described in this thread.

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Sorry, but I tend to go with what the players do and not force specific cisumstances upon them. I did not pick the spot, the players did. They pissed off the big bad and knew a kill team was being send. So they decided to go into the open steppe (to a place where the dragon had destroyed a village of the people one of the PCS came from - I thought this was a nice idea) and waited.
Wait, so you let the players ambush the kill team that had been scrying on them? The bad guys were kind enough to let the PCs know ahead of time that they would be arriving and then obliging enough to teleport right into the middle of their kill zone in broad daylight without taking any serious precautions?
I think I may have found the problem with the encounter. Hint- it's not Smite Evil.

wraithstrike |

wraithstrike wrote:
I would have had the fight somewhere else or changed the dragon to one that could take advantage of the environment. Have the lamia buff, and drop any useless spells the lamia had. Having the giant try to pound the paladins face in is also an option. I dont think he will be shooting arrows at a dragon with two giants breathing down his neck.If the paladin is melee based attack from outside of its range. If the paladin is archery based then go melee with him.
I disagree, unless the giants could really bring the pain I personally would just take two AOO's to one-round the dragon, with the dragon down my party members could help me with the giants.
The only way to find out how much they can bring the pain is to take a hit, and by then it is too late. I will also say that AoO might not be to deal hp damage though. Being tripped or disarmed is a strong possibility.

wraithstrike |

Another point:
With no paladin in the party the fight would have worked pretty well.
I have somewhat accepted, that undead are no real threat if a cleric is in the party.
I refuse to accept that any evil solo monster (expecially dragons & evil outsiders, which tend to be solo enemies) is no real threat anymore as soon as a paladin is in the party-
Solo monsters don't work so well because of economy action, especially if the PC's work well together.
Two CR'9s are generally harder than one CR 11.
Say for example a book suggest a CR 12 boss fight for a level 9 party. I would drop the boss to a CR 11, and use CR 9 which is left over for some backup monsters. That way the party can't(is less likely to) focus fire.

BigNorseWolf |

Alter self does not help you much, if you are obviously prepared to attack (blur IS pretty obvious).
Green dragon runs away from his comrades
"Help me brave palladin, these miscreants are attempting to kill me for my hoard!"
But even in melee range and with a surprise attack - as soon as the paladin gets to act, the dragon is toast
palladin shoots, draws an aoo, the dragon disarms with a good chance of success.

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I repeat myself:
Sorry, but I tend to go with what the players do and not force specific cisumstances upon them. I did not pick the spot, the players did. They pissed off the big bad and knew a kill team was being send. So they decided to go into the open steppe (to a place where the dragon had destroyed a village of the people one of the PCS came from - I thought this was a nice idea) and waited.
Having the bad guys decide to not jump into an obvious trap is not the same thing as railroading them. The bad guys could have just gone ahead with their own plans for world domination and let the players sit in the middle of their field until they got bored.
This is not railroading, this is the logical result of the PCs course of action.

wraithstrike |

lastblacknight wrote:
Don't rush yourself with the next encounter, if it's a big bad then let the suspense build and think through the combat, location, time of day etc..
Sorry, but I tend to go with what the players do and not force specific cisumstances upon them. I did not pick the spot, the players did. They pissed off the big bad and knew a kill team was being send. So they decided to go into the open steppe (to a place where the dragon had destroyed a village of the people one of the PCS came from - I thought this was a nice idea) and waited.
Dragons have big egos, but they would also know the PC's are dangerous, and not to be taken lightly. Attacking the PC's at a time of its choosing allows it to berate them for being manipulated into a bad situation and then give them a proper beating, or at least try.
The scrolls and things are not needed, for most groups, but that depends on the group.
This is running things on a difficulty of 8 out of 10
In closing I would have came in invisible, and had all buffs precast.
They would have came in right on the party. The surprise round would have consisted of doing something about that bow. You said you dont like to sunder valuable items so I would sunder the quiver. The giants get an attack in one on of the spells casters, focusing fire. The lamia goes for deep slumber(every turn until the uses are gone).
If the entire party is put to sleep you can take them prisoner if you don't want to kill them. How to work that into the game is up to you though.
Charm monster is also a good idea to make one of the PC's stop fighting.

wraithstrike |

Hyla wrote:
I repeat myself:
Sorry, but I tend to go with what the players do and not force specific cisumstances upon them. I did not pick the spot, the players did. They pissed off the big bad and knew a kill team was being send. So they decided to go into the open steppe (to a place where the dragon had destroyed a village of the people one of the PCS came from - I thought this was a nice idea) and waited.
Having the bad guys decide to not jump into an obvious trap is not the same thing as railroading them. The bad guys could have just gone ahead with their own plans for world domination and let the players sit in the middle of their field until they got bored.
This is not railroading, this is the logical result of the PCs course of action.
I would have done that if I were the GM.
BBEG thinking to itself: You guys sit there on that mountain. I will kill you, just not right now. It will be at my convenience not yours. :)

Hyla |

Hyla wrote:All those PCs slaughtered by Xanesha would like to have a word with you.
Also the encounters in RotR do NOT generally make use of elaborate tactics / hugely favourable circumstances that were described in this thread.
How is trowing a CR 11 monster in front of a bunch of 5 or 6 lvl PCs elaborate tactics. Xanesha was not hard because of her tower. She was hard because her AC, her damage, flying, her buffs (which she did not need any scrolls for btw).
Also the characters at that point do not have dispel magic.
Xanesha was a high point of bad design.

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Gorbacz wrote:Hyla wrote:All those PCs slaughtered by Xanesha would like to have a word with you.
Also the encounters in RotR do NOT generally make use of elaborate tactics / hugely favourable circumstances that were described in this thread.
How is trowing a CR 11 monster in front of a bunch of 5 or 6 lvl PCs elaborate tactics. Xanesha was not hard because of her tower. She was hard because her AC, her damage, flying, her buffs (which she did not need any scrolls for btw).
Also the characters at that point do not have dispel magic.
Xanesha was a high point of bad design.
If she was not in a tightly confined space with little to no quick escape route for non-fliers, with silence area covering the battlefield completely and almost every square within her reach without having to move further than a 5 foot step I'd grant you that. :)

Ashiel |

ShadowcatX wrote:"I ready an action to attack him next time he attempts to attack us" if he doesn't come back I don't see a problem anyway.
Ok, I'll bite. When the paladin has no line of sight to the Dragon, how does the paladin kill him in 1 turn? The wizard cast haste so the paladin gets an extra shot. Now its the Paladin's turn. You have no line of sight to the red dragon thanks to the wall of smoke in front of him.
Ok, you take your readied standard action. You get to shoot once.

Maddigan |

Alienfreak wrote:...not in most people's games.
Line up an outsider or dragon against a paladin? As long as it is evil it is dead in one round...
You're saying you can challenge a party with an evil outsider that has a paladin archer supported by a full party with a CR+2?
Pray tell give me a level and tell me how?

wraithstrike |

wraithstrike wrote:Alienfreak wrote:...not in most people's games.
Line up an outsider or dragon against a paladin? As long as it is evil it is dead in one round...
You're saying you can challenge a party with an evil outsider that has a paladin archer supported by a full party with a CR+2?
Pray tell give me a level and tell me how?
That is not what was said.
[Many things in D&D suffer from overcompensation.Look at the dwarf or the paladin. They are just horribly made...
Line up an outsider or dragon against a paladin? As long as it is evil it is dead in one round...
You gotta roll with it or just don't let your players play the horribly made thingies in D&D...He wants to be a paladin? Let him be an inquisitor of a lawful good deity...
He said it as though the paladin alone can take on the challenge. Even with a full party the outsider should make it to round 2. I would post tactics, but I am sure the party will magically have the right gear/spell/feat to whatever I suggest.
It is not hard to make it to round 2 unless I fight the party straight up which is not going to happen if I run a solo monster.

Maddigan |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |

ShadowcatX wrote:I notice you specifically do not reply to the suggestions I made that don't require scrolls, that only require the monster to be played intelligently. That tells me everything I need to know. Its reinforced by your third paragraph which states (paraphrased) "Thinking is too hard."
There are things designed for DMs who don't have a lot of time, they have like, story lines in them and monsters and suggestions on how to use the monsters and stuff. They're called APs. Run them if you don't have the time to do a session. Sloppy / lazy DM work is not an excuse to call something over powered.
I repeat myself:
Sorry, but I tend to go with what the players do and not force specific cisumstances upon them. I did not pick the spot, the players did. They pissed off the big bad and knew a kill team was being send. So they decided to go into the open steppe (to a place where the dragon had destroyed a village of the people one of the PCS came from - I thought this was a nice idea) and waited.FYI: Thee events I described took place in the scope of RotR. And you are starting to make me angry. I spent a lot of my quite scarce spare timne to prepare for my sessions, but I refuse to railroad my players into the encounters described in the AP books if the take a different course of action. So there are often sitations I do have exactly two minutes to prepare for during the session. That makes me a lazy DM?
Also the encounters in RotR do NOT generally make use of elaborate tactics / hugely favourable circumstances that were described in this thread.
Don't let these folks get you down. I feel your pain as a DM. All these tactics they are putting out as options don't do much to counter a well-prepared party.
I've been having to pull out the kitchen sink to challenge my party in Kingmaker and Runelords. I've dealt with paladins before. The best way to deal with them when their smite evil functions is to not allow the paladin a shot at the enemy. Which is harder to do as an archer.
If the paladin can in essence kill the dragon in one round, how are you supposed to deal with that? Have the dragon cower before mere mortals? Most dragons feel as though they have a fair shot against even a party of small humanoids. Usually they do, but not a party of adventurers with a paladin.
I've done all these tricks you see on here. They don't work very well. The cleric and wizard strip the defenses or render useless the help so the damage dealers can focus on Mr. Dragon.
Everyone is giving you all these great counters for the paladin. If he were alone, they would work great. Problem is the paladin isn't alone. For Mr. Green Dragon and his buddies to get Mr. Paladin, they have to go through Mr. Paladin's friends: the wizard, the cleric, the Big Stupid Melee, and whoever else is there.
That's when the tacticts start to break down. Because not only is Mr. Paladin with his Smite Evil doing great damage, but Mr. Paladin's friends are usually doing either nifty damage or some very powerful controlling effects as well or outright mitigating the damage that Mr. Dragon could do.
So until we see the entire breakdown of your group and their capabilities, giving you advice on how to deal with the paladin is a moot point. The dragon and his allies have to fight a party, and the paladin is only one part. Neutralizing the paladin probably comes at the cost of being unable to neutralize another member of the party. That's where tactical advice starts to break down.
I design enemies for a 9 person party. 5 players and 4 henchmen. So I very much know your pain. All of them are optimized and work together like a fine oiled machine. Makes life rough and combats long. I have yet to be able to have a single BBEG last more than a few rounds against them. They've lost one time to an enemy party and had to evacuate. But for the most part they kill everything they face and it has only gotten more difficult to challenge them the greater their options have grown.
So just suck it up this time and keep on trying new tactics. Sometimes you'll provide a hard challenge, sometimes you won't. But don't let anyone tell you a Paladin archer with smite evil isn't a hard to deal with PC in a party environment. That is a vicious combination that definitely seems overpowered against evil. But I believe that was the intent of the designers. That's what paladins do is kill evil things. When they aren't killing evil things, they are much weaker. So you have to accept that few classes are as good as paladins at killing evil and just make sure your enemies take that into account.

Maddigan |

Maddigan wrote:wraithstrike wrote:Alienfreak wrote:...not in most people's games.
Line up an outsider or dragon against a paladin? As long as it is evil it is dead in one round...
You're saying you can challenge a party with an evil outsider that has a paladin archer supported by a full party with a CR+2?
Pray tell give me a level and tell me how?
That is not what was said.
Quote:
[Many things in D&D suffer from overcompensation.Look at the dwarf or the paladin. They are just horribly made...
Line up an outsider or dragon against a paladin? As long as it is evil it is dead in one round...
You gotta roll with it or just don't let your players play the horribly made thingies in D&D...He wants to be a paladin? Let him be an inquisitor of a lawful good deity...
He said it as though the paladin alone can take on the challenge. Even with a full party the outsider should make it to round 2. I would post tactics, but I am sure the party will magically have the right gear/spell/feat to whatever I suggest.
It is not hard to make it to round 2 unless I fight the party straight up which is not going to happen if I run a solo monster.
I make it to round two by giving my outsiders crazy hit points. Unless it is a standard 4 person party with very standard classes not particularly optimized, it's hard to keep a creature alive unless the creature knows his enemies are coming, knows what they can do, and can prepare for them. And even then it is sometimes hard if the party rolls lucky.

Dekalinder |

wraithstrike wrote:Dekalinder wrote:I have a question. There is a way to make the paladin class less binary without taking away his feeling f "anti-evil warrior"? because as it stand now, smite evil->paladin smashes, no smite->paladin suck.There is nothing wrong with smite. You just can't give them a clear line to the boss guys.I think what he asked was more like: As it stands, paladins either smite, and are frakkin' awesome, or they don't smite, and then they suxxors. He wondered if there was any good way to make it less binary, and more into different shades of kick-assness.
Not that I agree though, I think the paladin is fine even against non-evil opponents. Decent combatant with good healing powers, nothing to complain about.
He got me right ^^
By the way, to all the people out here that keep suggesting marvelous tactics, are you noticing how much yu had to cmpensate for that single one player among the party? many of the tactic suggested range from "screw the whole group" to TPK like being attacked while asleep (no armor no spell, sourprise round maybe with coup of grace). What i want to say is: as a master, is a given that you can kill the whole party anytime even with weak moster if you "cheat" the battlefield enough. But if you are forced to that degree of "stacking against the party" becouse of a certain something, is probably because that certain something is too good
wraithstrike |

Hyla wrote:ShadowcatX wrote:I notice you specifically do not reply to the suggestions I made that don't require scrolls, that only require the monster to be played intelligently. That tells me everything I need to know. Its reinforced by your third paragraph which states (paraphrased) "Thinking is too hard."
There are things designed for DMs who don't have a lot of time, they have like, story lines in them and monsters and suggestions on how to use the monsters and stuff. They're called APs. Run them if you don't have the time to do a session. Sloppy / lazy DM work is not an excuse to call something over powered.
I repeat myself:
Sorry, but I tend to go with what the players do and not force specific cisumstances upon them. I did not pick the spot, the players did. They pissed off the big bad and knew a kill team was being send. So they decided to go into the open steppe (to a place where the dragon had destroyed a village of the people one of the PCS came from - I thought this was a nice idea) and waited.FYI: Thee events I described took place in the scope of RotR. And you are starting to make me angry. I spent a lot of my quite scarce spare timne to prepare for my sessions, but I refuse to railroad my players into the encounters described in the AP books if the take a different course of action. So there are often sitations I do have exactly two minutes to prepare for during the session. That makes me a lazy DM?
Also the encounters in RotR do NOT generally make use of elaborate tactics / hugely favourable circumstances that were described in this thread.
Don't let these folks get you down. I feel your pain as a DM. All these tactics they are putting out as options don't do much to counter a well-prepared party.
I've been having to pull out the kitchen sink to challenge my party in Kingmaker and Runelords. I've dealt with paladins before. The best way to deal with them when their smite evil functions is to not allow the paladin a shot at...
Why don't they work?

wraithstrike |

wraithstrike wrote:Maddigan wrote:wraithstrike wrote:Alienfreak wrote:...not in most people's games.
Line up an outsider or dragon against a paladin? As long as it is evil it is dead in one round...
You're saying you can challenge a party with an evil outsider that has a paladin archer supported by a full party with a CR+2?
Pray tell give me a level and tell me how?
That is not what was said.
Quote:
[Many things in D&D suffer from overcompensation.Look at the dwarf or the paladin. They are just horribly made...
Line up an outsider or dragon against a paladin? As long as it is evil it is dead in one round...
You gotta roll with it or just don't let your players play the horribly made thingies in D&D...He wants to be a paladin? Let him be an inquisitor of a lawful good deity...
He said it as though the paladin alone can take on the challenge. Even with a full party the outsider should make it to round 2. I would post tactics, but I am sure the party will magically have the right gear/spell/feat to whatever I suggest.
It is not hard to make it to round 2 unless I fight the party straight up which is not going to happen if I run a solo monster.
I make it to round two by giving my outsiders crazy hit points. Unless it is a standard 4 person party with very standard classes not particularly optimized, it's hard to keep a creature alive unless the creature knows his enemies are coming, knows what they can do, and can prepare for them. And even then it is sometimes hard if the party rolls lucky.
I was assuming he knew they were coming, but you are right if he is just an "xp" encounter then he gets thrashed.

wraithstrike |

stringburka wrote:wraithstrike wrote:Dekalinder wrote:I have a question. There is a way to make the paladin class less binary without taking away his feeling f "anti-evil warrior"? because as it stand now, smite evil->paladin smashes, no smite->paladin suck.There is nothing wrong with smite. You just can't give them a clear line to the boss guys.I think what he asked was more like: As it stands, paladins either smite, and are frakkin' awesome, or they don't smite, and then they suxxors. He wondered if there was any good way to make it less binary, and more into different shades of kick-assness.
Not that I agree though, I think the paladin is fine even against non-evil opponents. Decent combatant with good healing powers, nothing to complain about.
He got me right ^^
By the way, to all the people out here that keep suggesting marvelous tactics, are you noticing how much yu had to cmpensate for that single one player among the party? many of the tactic suggested range from "screw the whole group" to TPK like being attacked while asleep (no armor no spell, sourprise round maybe with coup of grace). What i want to say is: as a master, is a given that you can kill the whole party anytime even with weak moster if you "cheat" the battlefield enough. But if you are forced to that degree of "stacking against the party" becouse of a certain something, is probably because that certain something is too good
Actually I would do the same for a fighter or ranger with the dragon as a favored enemy. Barbarians also should not be given easy access to full round attacks if you want the monster to live.
In this case I am protecting against full round attacks. Smite makes it better, but that is not the issue here. the only tactic I dont agree on is attacking them while they are sleep. Everything else is not bad at all. The PC's do it the bad guys all they time. They use battlefield control spells, and other tactics to keep the bad guys at bay and take them apart at their leisure.
If the PC's know the BBEG is behind door #2 they buff before going in.
That is just smart play, and has nothing to do with anything being too good.
PS:You will never kill a good party with a weak monster unless the environment itself can kill them*, and in that case the monster was not really the issue.
*volcano and lava as an example.

Dekalinder |

PS:You will never kill a good party with a weak monster unless the environment itself can kill them*, and in that case the monster was not really the issue.
*volcano and lava as an example.
You do if you want. Like a sneaky little moster with + a lot to hide that sneake past in the night and coup the grace everyone. Or a specialized caster that wreck havoc with dominate and single target nuke that take you by surprise (a 10-11 level caster can TPK a lv 15 grup if you play him right). Or a grup of archer with and antimagic field on an isolate platform not reachable exept by fly (AMF means no tp in)
Of course much depends on the particular team setup and their weaknes.
Hyla |

If she was not in a tightly confined space with little to no quick escape route for non-fliers, with silence area covering the battlefield completely and almost every square within her reach without having to move further than a 5 foot step I'd grant you that. :)
All this stuff additional to her being completely out of the league of the PCs. How is this a good thing?

wraithstrike |

wraithstrike wrote:PS:You will never kill a good party with a weak monster unless the environment itself can kill them*, and in that case the monster was not really the issue.
*volcano and lava as an example.
You do if you want. Like a sneaky little moster with + a lot to hide that sneake past in the night and coup the grace everyone. Or a specialized caster that wreck havoc with dominate and single target nuke that take you by surprise (a 10-11 level caster can TPK a lv 15 grup if you play him right). Or a grup of archer with and antimagic field on an isolate platform not reachable exept by fly (AMF means no tp in)
Of course much depends on the particular team setup and their weaknes.
coup de grace everyone? I am sure there is someone on watch. I am sure the party would not set things ups so they could not see all their allies. Even if one person got axed by an invisible opponent the blood would be seen, and then the alarm is raised. The mook then dies.

Ashiel |

Gorbacz wrote:
If she was not in a tightly confined space with little to no quick escape route for non-fliers, with silence area covering the battlefield completely and almost every square within her reach without having to move further than a 5 foot step I'd grant you that. :)
All this stuff additional to her being completely out of the league of the PCs. How is this a good thing?
Because PCs are powerful, anything that is going to stand up to multiple PCs needs to be MadeOfWin=1 or turn things to their advantage, or both. Big stats are often not enough to pose a great challenge. It has been something of a passtime to kill the Terrasque with increasingly lower levels and more or less elaborate plots; especially in 3.x where you could kill the Terrasque with a 6th level cleric and a gold piece.
Likewise, this works in reverse. I've torn up some parties with CR 1/4 NPC-classed kobolds; many of which were between 4th and 8th level. Strategy and tactics often win out over brute force.
There's also something called "action economy". While not discussed in the actual game books, it is accepted and has been evaluated for a very long time. Essentially, if you have X party members versus Y enemies, if X is greater than Y then the party has more actions than the enemy, which means they have more chances to deal damage, hinder, or adjust the situation to their favor.
First, dragons are not what they were in 3.x. They're not really tough for their CR by default unless you really bring to bear everything they have going for them; which, like it or not, includes using things like wands, scrolls, and similar tools. Second, you had a situation where you have selected an enemy that is horribly weak against a particular character archtype, then placed it a disadvantageous position, and then got upset when the proverbial dragon-slayer slayed a dragon.
This would be akin to a PC who was immune to charm and domination effects, ability damage, and energy drain; who is dual-wielding a pair of weapons enhanced with disruption, and then complaining that your undead didn't last very long against it. Well, yeah...
Also, for the record, a party is expected to steamroll an equal CR encounter. In fact, an equal CR encounter is expected to only take around 20% of a party's resources at most, and MAY kill a PC if there is a stroke of bad luck or the monster gets lucky.
But from the sound of it, you are playing your monsters in such a way as to probably warrant lowering their CR; since they apparently have no desire to remain alive after encountering the PCs.

Dekalinder |

Dekalinder wrote:coup de grace everyone? I am sure there is someone on watch. I am sure the party would not set things ups so they could not see all their allies. Even if one person got axed by an invisible opponent the blood would be seen, and then the alarm is raised. The mook then dies.You do if you want. Like a sneaky little moster with + a lot to hide that sneake past in the night and coup the grace everyone. Or a specialized caster that wreck havoc with dominate and single target nuke that take you by surprise (a 10-11 level caster can TPK a lv 15 grup if you play him right). Or a grup of archer with and antimagic field on an isolate platform not reachable exept by fly (AMF means no tp in)
Of course much depends on the particular team setup and their weaknes.
Well, the point of sneaking is for bypassing the guard ^^. And enough skilled assassin nows how to cutroat someone withoud doing that much noise (and preventing the victim from screaming.) You can probabli go away with 2 kill if you go all-in. Or you can just take one kill and flee. Is a "free kill". And since we are already there, how about instead 2 of this mook? The point is, player have theyr weakness, if you are a master that like to exploit those to the maximum you will easly end up killing all of them. The point of the master is not that.

wraithstrike |

wraithstrike wrote:Well, the point of sneaking is for bypassing the guard ^^. And enough skilled assassin nows how to cutroat someone withoud doing that much noise (and preventing the victim from screaming.) You can probabli go away with 2 kill if you go all-in. Or you can just take one kill and flee. Is a "free kill". And since we are already there, how about instead 2 of this mook? The point is, player have theyr weakness, if you are a master that like to exploit those to the maximum you will easly end up killing all of them. The point of the master is not that.Dekalinder wrote:coup de grace everyone? I am sure there is someone on watch. I am sure the party would not set things ups so they could not see all their allies. Even if one person got axed by an invisible opponent the blood would be seen, and then the alarm is raised. The mook then dies.You do if you want. Like a sneaky little moster with + a lot to hide that sneake past in the night and coup the grace everyone. Or a specialized caster that wreck havoc with dominate and single target nuke that take you by surprise (a 10-11 level caster can TPK a lv 15 grup if you play him right). Or a grup of archer with and antimagic field on an isolate platform not reachable exept by fly (AMF means no tp in)
Of course much depends on the particular team setup and their weaknes.
Pathfinder does not have facing. If someone is bleeding it will be seen. That 2nd kill will not happen. The first one might not even happen.
No 10 to 11 level anything it taking out a 15 level party barring lucky rolls, and even then it is questionable.
What exploits are you talking about by the way? Most of the strategies listed were legit. The only ones I don't like I spoke up against such as killing the party in their sleep.

Maddigan |

Maddigan wrote:...Hyla wrote:ShadowcatX wrote:I notice you specifically do not reply to the suggestions I made that don't require scrolls, that only require the monster to be played intelligently. That tells me everything I need to know. Its reinforced by your third paragraph which states (paraphrased) "Thinking is too hard."
There are things designed for DMs who don't have a lot of time, they have like, story lines in them and monsters and suggestions on how to use the monsters and stuff. They're called APs. Run them if you don't have the time to do a session. Sloppy / lazy DM work is not an excuse to call something over powered.
I repeat myself:
Sorry, but I tend to go with what the players do and not force specific cisumstances upon them. I did not pick the spot, the players did. They pissed off the big bad and knew a kill team was being send. So they decided to go into the open steppe (to a place where the dragon had destroyed a village of the people one of the PCS came from - I thought this was a nice idea) and waited.FYI: Thee events I described took place in the scope of RotR. And you are starting to make me angry. I spent a lot of my quite scarce spare timne to prepare for my sessions, but I refuse to railroad my players into the encounters described in the AP books if the take a different course of action. So there are often sitations I do have exactly two minutes to prepare for during the session. That makes me a lazy DM?
Also the encounters in RotR do NOT generally make use of elaborate tactics / hugely favourable circumstances that were described in this thread.
Don't let these folks get you down. I feel your pain as a DM. All these tactics they are putting out as options don't do much to counter a well-prepared party.
I've been having to pull out the kitchen sink to challenge my party in Kingmaker and Runelords. I've dealt with paladins before. The best way to deal with them when their smite evil functions is to not allow the
Some of them could work, some of them might not. Absent knowing how the party operates, it's hard to know.
It's not easy to counter a party. It takes a great deal of work, even moreso the higher level they get.
Problem with scrolls and potions I've found is they operate at suboptimal levels and thus are easily dispelled. dispel magicand greater dispel magic are quite popular spells with my groups. They use them to set up the physical damage dealers like they are serving up softballs over home plate. Wait for the physical damage dealers to get into position, then strip the target. Makes using magical counters to physical damage dealers very difficult.

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Given my gaming experience with 3.5 and Pathfinder, I have come to the conclusion that archer-type are both the greatest damage dealers AND the easiest characters to kill, more than casters or anything else. They are not allowed AoO, so they are very vulnerable to Combat Maneuvres. Switch Hitters, on the other and, are not as vulnerable.
Snap Shot (Combat)
With a ranged weapon, you can take advantage of any opening in your opponent's defenses.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: While wielding a ranged weapon with which you have Weapon Focus, you threaten squares within 5 feet of you. You can make attacks of opportunity with that ranged weapon. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity when making a ranged attack as an attack of opportunity.
Normal: While wielding a ranged weapon, you threaten no squares and can make no attacks of opportunity with that weapon.Improved Snap Shot (Combat)
You can take advantage of your opponent's vulnerabilities from a greater distance, and without exposing yourself.
Prerequisites: Dex 15, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Snap Shot, Weapon Focus, base attack bonus +9.
Benefit: You threaten an additional 10 feet with Snap Shot.
Normal: Making a ranged attack provokes attacks of opportunity.Greater Snap Shot (Combat)
You can prey on any gap in your foe's guard with impunity, and with even greater range.
Prerequisites: Dex 17, Improved Snap Shot, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Snap Shot, base attack bonus +12.
Benefit: Whenever you make an attack of opportunity using a ranged weapon and hit, you gain a +2 bonus on the damage roll and a +2 bonus on rolls to confirm a critical hit with that attack. These bonuses increase to +4 when you have base attack bonus +16, and to +6 when you have base attack bonus +20.
Now they can get AoO.

MicMan |

So in your opinion a dragon needs lots of scrolls to survive. I can't really tell you how much I do not like this...
Oh, come on.
1. Paladin being played without Smite Errata
2. Dragon Bane Arrows
3. Stupid Dragon
= dead Dragon even at CR+2
What I would have done is the following:
Surprise Round
The evil guys pop in invisibly a short distance from the party, preferrably at night or at some other favorable time and place.
Round 1
The evil caster is dropping a Stinking Cloud on the party into which the Dragon happily charges and tries to start a grapple with the Paladine hopefully pinning him down inside the Stinking cloud.
Round 2+
Likely having pinned the Paladin he uses his free bite against him repeatedly while the Paladin is unable to use his bow and probably in need of some rescue.
Anyone leaving the cloud is picked off by the rest of the baddies who also provide support for the Dragon as needed.
I think we all can agree that using this tactic the Dragon would have had quite some impact and the Paladin would have found it quite hard to shine with his very specialized build.
But if you think running an encounter at Level 9 well means "a lot of work for the GM" I advise you to consider E6.

Alienfreak |

Hyla wrote:(range: personal - also shield).Scroll - no fail.
Monsters have no usables or any other magic items other than those stated in their statblock.
If you are giving them usables you are increasing the CR of that monster and thus making it better. That much for the CR+2 not being down in one round.
Also you rely on heavy caster support (teleporting a HUGE dragon counts for 4 creatures, so you have to be a lvl 12 caster to teleport him with you) plus casting about 3-4 buff spells on him. While this is perfectly legal by CR means it still shows us that the CR+2 creature has no chance of surviving one round because it will need an CR 11 Caster with him so he can teleport (since he cannot use a teleport scroll per se).

Hyla |

1. Paladin being played without Smite Errata
Not true. We played WITH errata.
Without the errata the mean damage would have gone up from ~135 to ~160, so that would have made little difference anyway.
Also I am amazed at the amount of aggression I am drawing here: lazy DM, stupidly played etc. etc.
Its simply not the case that CR assume super-optimal conditions for the bad guys.
In my described case the conditions were even slightly disadvantegeous for the PCs since they were not buffed, but the bad guys were at the start of the combat.
If I take a look at my AP books or the many PF modules I own - I simply fail to see the elaborate tactics, preparation and environmental advantages you guys claim are absolutely necessary in order for the CR be valid.
So are this all stupid modules, written by lazy authors or what?
Or maybe your elaborations are misguided attempts at disguising the fact that yes, a CR 11 dragon ist just not a real challenge for a lvl 9 party including an archer paladin.
Why is it so hard to just admit that? It does not make PF a bad game or anything. Its just that my expectations were wrong, and next time I will send a CR 13 or 14 dragon.

Hyla |

Monsters have no usables or any other magic items other than those stated in their statblock.
If you are giving them usables you are increasing the CR of that monster and thus making it better. That much for the CR+2 not being down in one round.
Also you rely on heavy caster support (teleporting a HUGE dragon counts for 4 creatures, so you have to be a lvl 12 caster to teleport him with you) plus casting about 3-4 buff spells on him. While this is perfectly legal by CR means it still shows us that the CR+2 creature has no chance of surviving one round because it will need an CR 11 Caster with him so he can teleport (since he cannot use a teleport scroll per se).
While I agree, allow me one nitpick: A young adult green is large, not huge.

MicMan |

...Or maybe your elaborations are misguided attempts at disguising the fact that yes, a CR 11 dragon ist just not a real challenge for a lvl 9 party including an archer paladin...
No, dead wrong.
Under the right circumstances with preparation and clever encounter design a single CR 11 Dragon can wipe the floor with a Level 9 party.
This is because Pathfinder is a game where IMAGINATION comes into play and is as important, if not more, than the sheer numbers.
Soooooo, popping a Dragon into convenient bow shot range of a Paladin who has all his smites left with Dragon bane Arrows is NOT an indication that the CR system is broken.