Hi all- I've got a draft of the electus done that focuses on the calibur and is pretty different from the magus. It builds on what was created before and takes into account the ideas I and Loyal Battle Monkey have been batting around this thread. This should be the link that will take you to the PDF:
Go to Electus.
Let me know what you think of this version. What works, what doesn't, etc. I need more ideas for temperings and weapon features. Thanks.
I changed the requirements for the electus to reforge his calibur if it destroyed. It now reads: If the calibur is broken or destroyed, the electus can magically reforge the calibur in a number of hours equal to the damage taken by the calibur minus the electus’s level (minimum of 1 hour).
I also changed the Rapid Reforge tempering to read: Rapid Reforge (Su): As long as the electus has at least one eldritch pool point, he can reforge a broken or destroyed caliber much faster than normal. The electus can reforge his calibur in a number of rounds equal to the damage taken by the calibur minus the electus’s level (minimum of 1 round).
Right now the Eldritch Calibur ability allows the electus to imbue his calibur with a maximum number of spells equal to his Charisma modifier. Is this too low? Would it be better to go with 1/2 the electus's level or 1/2 the electus's level + the electus's Charisma modifier?
I also found an error that listed "Caliber +1" as a first level ability on Table 1-5. I deleted it. Once people have a chance to provide feedback I'll post a revised PDF and .DOCX version.
Loyal Battle Monkey, thank you also for your feedback.
Player Killer, way to go on giving the electus its own flavor! That PDF looks great.
|
What exactly is the role of this class? I ask this to try and bring together all the ideas into a singular, cohesive idea. By role I mean that two or three sentenses that fully encapsulates the class. What is the class supposed to do in combat? What is this class's role outside of combat?
I should have a slightly different version up sometime on Monday or Tuesday. It will have two different tables. The first is the basic class advancement table. The second will be like an eidolon's (which I think Player Killer should use to help illustrate how the calibur advances)
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Probally won't have it up tonight but here's a small preview:
1. They don't start with heavy armor prof. or shields
2. I retained the casting ability, but they cast as a sorcerer
3. They gain 'Fated' which grants a +1 shield bonus while they wield the calibur. It increases at the class levels
4. Good Saves: Fort/Will
5. Increased number of class skills (Bluff, Intimidate, K(arcana), K(dungeoneering)
6. Get heavy armor prof later and ability to cast in it.
7. They get Make Whole as a spell-like ability to their Calibur but takes 10 minutes/level instead of 10 minutes
8. Calibur gets a bonus feat at level 1 (either Alterness, Quick Draw, or Combat Reflexes) while the character possesses or wields the calibur.
9. Calibur begins as a Magic Weapon with enhancement of +0 and functions as mundane copy if not wielded by the Electus.
10. Small pool of points that the calibur possesses that's used for bonus on crit confirm, extra damage, or bonus to a skill at level 1. Weapon becomes more 'magical' at higher levels. At level 3, the electus gives his Cha modifier to calibur pool.
What exactly is the role of this class? I ask this to try and bring together all the ideas into a singular, cohesive idea. By role I mean that two or three sentenses that fully encapsulates the class. What is the class supposed to do in combat? What is this class's role outside of combat?
From what I've gathered from reading the thread, the electus's role is that of a tank whose power comes primarily from their magic weapon. That's why I removed spell casting. I think once you add in spell-casting you basically have a class that is very similar to the magus.
|
|
From what I've gathered from reading the thread, the electus's role is that of a tank whose power comes primarily from their magic weapon. That's why I removed spell casting. I think once you add in spell-casting you basically have a class that is very similar to the magus.What exactly is the role of this class? I ask this to try and bring together all the ideas into a singular, cohesive idea. By role I mean that two or three sentenses that fully encapsulates the class. What is the class supposed to do in combat? What is this class's role outside of combat?
I think we can make adjustments that allow the character to go in many different directions rather than focus on one role. For example, a fighter can focus on being a tank, be a two-handed weapon master, two weapon master, archer, int based fighter, or others.
I've been trying to write up both versions of the Electus: an eldritch version and a non-magic user version. I created Provenances as a way to open up design to allow different versions of items. I've been trying to have the calibur do more than just be a magic weapon; I want it to effect conditions in battle and outside of battle.
I was also thinking of some mechanic that gives the electus a bonus from using a Calibur Point. Crit confirmation, Damage roll, or selected skill bonus were the three I believe I wrote down. They got a bonus to those rolls for a number of rounds equal to Cha modifier. A calibur started at 2 points and got to 8 points by level 20.
My primary intent for this class was to make a full Bab class that can cast arcane spells as an arcane counterpart to Rangers and Paladins. The Hexblade of 3.5 came close to filling this niche. I would prefer the Electus keep his spellcasting. Just my two cp.
|
|
Whatever I didn't use in the Electus I was going to use towards something like a WARlock or Spellmonger (the full BAB arcane user).
Most of what's done is in outline form and in the spellcasting form. It's used to get the basic ideas across before I come up with the draft form. It's still very rough.
As for eidolon weapon, I think it would be better to have the weapon 'evolve' differently than an eidolon. I think it should have less freedom so we can better balance the calibur as it grows. All caliburs should get the spell-like abilities and special weapon at certain levels but what the calibur gets will depend on its type. My non-caster electus will reflect that whenever I get done with it.
I was also thinking "what about non-weapon super magic items"? Could we make a 'calibur' system that allowed an easy way to let the character choose a magic weapon or another slot item?
Hit Die: d10
Alignment: Any
BAB: as Warrior (Fighter/Barbarian/Paladin)
Good Saves: Fort, Will
Bad Saves: Reflex
Skill Ranks per level: 4 + Int modifier
Acrobatics (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Arcana)(Int), Knowledge (Dungeoneering)(Int), Knowledge (Nobility) (Int), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Spellcraft (int), Swim (Str), and Use Magic Device (Cha)
I gave more class skills because I wanted to expand the class more out of combat. That and none of the class features give additional class skills. This also expands what the class can do out of combat.
Level Special Feature
1 - Calibur
2 - Bonus Feat
3 - Cantrips, Fated (+1)
4 - Reservoir of Spirit, Level 1 spells
5 - Make Whole
6 - Bonus Feat
7 - Fated (+2), Fuel Calibur, Level 2 spells
8 - (Provenance ability)
9 - Martial Concentration
10 - Heavy Armor, level 3 spells
11 - Fated (+3)
12 - Bonus Feat
13 - Ancient Energies, Level 4 spells
14 -
15 - (Provenance ability),Fated (+4)
16 - Martial Spellcaster
17 -
18 - Bonus Feat
19 - Fated (+5)
20 - Level 20 ability
There's still a bit of a gap at 14/17 levels
Weapon and Armor Profs: All simple and martial weapons, and all light and medium armor. An electus is also proficient with his calibur.
Calibur
-gains a magic weapon with enhancement of +0
-functions as mundance copy in a non-Electus's hand
I've considered making the electus have the option of a weapon OR item
Fated
-shield bonus to AC
Bonus Feat
-combat feat
Cantrips
-gains cantrips (3)
Spells
-as sorcerer (doesn't need to prepare ahead of time)
-can cast in light and medium armor
-caster level is electus level - 3
Reservoir of Spirit
-adds Cha modifier to Calibur Pool
I wanted to emphasis the bond between the electus and the calibur. Just the electus draws upon the calibur but the calibur can draw on the electus.
Make Whole
-gains make whole as a spell-like ability for caliburs
-casting time increased to 10 minutes/class level
I added this to emphasis how difficult it can be to repair an increasingly stronger magic item but continue the bond between the electus and calibur
Fuel Calibur
-can spend spell slots to add calibur points
-each spell spent gives 1/2 level as calibur points
-level 1 spells or greater
Another ability to place emphasis on the bond
Martial Concentration
-can use BAB instead of caster level for concentration checks
To help the class out if it needed to cast in combat
Heavy Armor
-can cast spells in heavy armor
As a spellcaster, I did not want to the class to start as a heavy armor user.
Ancient Energies
-can use calibur point(s) to add metamagic to a spell
-each calibur point reduces the level adjustment by 1 (to minimum of spell's level)
Martial Spellcaster
-can use BAB instead of caster check for spells
For spell resistance checks and to offset the lower caster level.
Level Special
1 - Calibur Pool +1d6, Provenance
2 - "Familiar" feat
3
4 - Calibur Pool +2d6
5
6
7 - Calibur Pool +3d6
8 - Provenance Ability
9
10 - Calibur Pool +4d6
11
12
13 - Calibur Pool +5d6
14
15 - Provenance Ability
16 - Calibur Pool +6d6
17
18
19 - Calibur Pool +7d6
20
Calibur Pool
-points below
-spend point to give bonus on crit confirmation, damage roll, or associated provenance skill roll
I wanted the calibur to enable heroic actions. I feel like I want it to be more lore like the Cavalier's challenge ability (static growth instead of d6s) but grant different bonuses and function based on Cha modifier
"Familiar" feat
-player chooses one feat: alterness, quick draw, or combat reflexes
-player has feat as long as he wields or possesses the calibur
I always felt like a magic weapon was very similar to a familiar. The calibur is more like an intelligence item rather than just a blank canvas.
Provenances
Divine Symbol
skills: Diplomancy, Knowledge (history), Knowledge (religion)
-gives usage of a Domain of a diety
-at 8 and 15, gives another Domain of that diety
Magical Focus
skills: Knowledge (arcana), spellcraft, use magic device
level 1: use calibur point for ranged touch attack (1d6 per 2 levels)
level 8: use calibur point as immediate action to gain resistance
level 15: use calibur point for change spell damage to another type
Transformative
skills: Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate
level 1: gives +1 enhancement to a stat and grows as level increases
level 8: use 2 calibur points to grant bonus to ally (also gives alter self)
level 15: as above but to every ally
I've only added three to get the basic idea of what the provenances do
1~2 - 0 - 2
3~4 - 1 - 2
5~6 - 2 - 3
7 - 3 - 4
8~9 - 4 - 4
10~11 - 5 - 5
12~13 - 6 - 5
14~15 - 7 - 6
16~17 - 8 - 6
18~19 - 9 - 7
20 - 10- 8
Essentially the calibur gets to be a +1 weapon at level then at 5 it becomes a +2 or a +1 with a +1 special feature. The calibur pool is the points usable per day.
Here is an update to the non-spell caster version of the electus concept. I tried to streamline this version. It still needs a lot of work. I could really use input into whether people think it is balanced. I've done a bit of freelance work for Zombie Sky Press but most of my experience is with GMing for my friends. I've never created a character class before. Is it to weak? To strong? Are the tempers interesting enough? Would you play it? If not, why not? I'm not happy with the special weapon features and could use some ideas. I'm purposely staying away from creating a spell-casting variant not because I don't think it is a good idea. I just really liked the concept of a class who draws their power from a unique weapon. If anyone wants to make a spell-casting version they should check out Super Genius Games Vanguard and Archon classes. They are pretty cool. Go to Vanguard Link. Go to Archon Link.
Go to Electus V2.
I must admit that I love what you both are doing. These versions of yours are great and I hope someday our ideas make it to print.
couldn't reforge soul be a built in feature?
Nice creative work everyone contributing to this thread. Arcanemuses, you should be very proud of what is happening here....
@Player Killer: I liked the V.2 non-caster variant right up until the Eldritch boons that are spell-like abilities. Spell casting by another term. I'm getting very confused with all the electus variants here now...
If it's a base class, you can have archetypes, and you can have Alternate Base Classes.Working to that model will ease the confusion and free up the designs methinks!!! :)
Also: Ian Morris 321 made this point:
I think they should have higher than average skill points. This would give them something to do outside of combat for the giant sword guy, and it would also allow for a more diverse character.
I'm not sure I agree here. If you want to do more outside of combat, perhaps you should be a different class? You have a hard enough time trying to concentrate on your giant bazookatana, you aren't disabling traps or schmoozing folk. I know it makes the character "shoehorned"*, but there can't always be something for everybody to do.
And on this point:
Extra point) I think the role is best as a tank with support abilities, specifically I think they should remain spell less and have supernatural abilities. IMHO this seems truer to the source and allows more customization.
I'm not sure we are all thinking of the same "source" Ian - many were posited upthread. Personally I basically agree with you, but that is why, as a base class, there are many many opportunities for wildly different versions.
*(Extreme Gonzo idea- horned boot calibur. ) :p
I prefer the non-spellcasting version, but that's not to say anyone's work is better than the other's here. There is a lot of brainpower and creativity at work here, and that's a very good thing.
I prefer the non-spellcasting version, but that's not to say anyone's work is better than the other's here. There is a lot of brainpower and creativity at work here, and that's a very good thing.
I agree. I am very impressed.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Okay, here's the "non-spellcasting" version. The class does retain an option to gain spell-like abilities.
Electus
Hit Die: d10
Alignment: any
BAB: as Warrior
Good Saves: Fort
Bad Saves: Reflex, Will
Class Skills
The electus's class skills are Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Swim (Str), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skill ranks per level: 4 + Int modifier
Table: Electus Advancement
Level Special
1 Calibur (+0), Provenance, Moment of Greatness 1/day, Wielder Ability
2 Perspicacity
3 Calibur (+1), Inspire Others (Timely Inspiration)
4 Perspicacity
5 Calibur (+2), Evoke, Moment of Greatness 2/day
6 Perspicacity
7 Calibur (+3), Inspire Others (Gallant Inspiration)
8 Perspicacity
9 Calibur (+4), Moment of Greatness 3/day
10 Perspicacity
11 Calibur (+5), Moment of Greatness (Movement Action)
12 Perspicacity
13 Calibur (+6), Moment of Greatness 4/day
14 Perspicaicty
15 Calibur (+7), Inspire Others (Brilliant Inspiration)
16 Perspicacity
17 Calibur (+8), Moment of Greatness 5/day
18 Perspicacity
19 Calibur (+9)
20 Level 20 ability, Calibur (+10)
Class Features
Weapon and Armor Proficiency
An electus is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and with all light and medium armor.
Calibur
-begins as a masterwork weapon
-electus is proficient in the weapon
-counts as a mundane weapon in the hands of another character
-an electus uses his calibur as a Focus for spell-like abilities
-at level 3, calibur becomes a +1 magic weapon
-at level 5 and every 2 level there after, gains another +1
-can use +1 for special ability (such as bane or merciful)*
-at every new level, electus can re-assignment enhancement
*limited by provenance choice
Provenance
Although every calibur is unique, these mighty weapons fall into broad categories. At 1st level, choose a provenance. This choice affects what abilities and which special abilities features can be chosen by other class abilities.
Moment of Greatness
Electi are driven by moments of action that produces grand results. Once per day, an electus can add his class level + cha bonus to an attack roll or skill roll. At 5th level and every four levels after, he gains an additional use per day. At 11th level, the electus can choose to take an additional movement action during his turn instead of a bonus to a damage or skill roll.
The class needs somekind of mechanic other than the calibur. I'm not too happy with it atm but it's better than nothing.
Wielder Feat
At 1st level, while the electus wields or possesses the calibur, he gains a bonus feat or ability based on the calibur's provenance. He need not meet the feat's prerequisites.
Nice, little free feat to make the calibur feel like a familiar.
Perspicacity
As an electus gains experience, his understanding of the calibur grows. At 2nd level, the electus gains an ability from his chosen provenance. *Abilities are not listed yet but think of the Alchemist Discovery, Rogue Trick, or Barbarian Rage Power* If he chooses a spell-like ability, he gains the ability to use it once per day. He can choose a spell-like ability multiple times and each choice gives him an additional use of that spell-like ability per day. An electus may only choose a spell-like ability if he has a spell-like ability of a lower level.
Again, it's pretty much just like the Alchemist's Discovery. I haven't written any up yet.
Inspire Others
Electi have an innate ability to often advice at the right moment. At 3rd level, an electus can use Timely Inspiration as a spell-like ability a number of times a day equal to his Cha modifier. At level 7, this ability functions as Gallant Inspiration. At level 17, this ability functions as Brilliant Inspiration.
I wanted a way for the electus to support the team and Timely Inspiration seemed like one way to go.
Evoke
At 5th level, an electus can attempt to evoke more power from his calibur. As a full round action, the electus makes a Use Magic Device check with a DC equal to his class level + 10. If successful, he can cast a spell-like the calibur possesses.
I put this here so that an electus that goes all spell-like abilities can do something after he runs out besides attacking.
Provenances
Divine Symbol
Wielder Feat: Iron Will
Spell-like Abilities
1: Protection from Good/Evil/Law/Chaos, Bless, Command, Cure/Inflict Light Wounds
2: Aid, Cure/Inflict Moderate Wounds, Silence, Restoration (lesser), Concecrate/Descecrate
3: Animate Dead, Dispell, Magic Circle Against Good/Evil/Law/Chaos, Searing Light, Cure/Inflict Serious Wounds
4: Divine Power, Spell Immunity, Spiritual Ally, Restoration
Special Abilities Available: Bane, Cruel, Ghost Touch, Greyflame, Merciful, Planar, Neutralizing
Enhancement
Wielder Feat: Endurance
Spell-like Abilities
1: Endure Elements, Ant Haul, Feather Fall, Jump, Mirror Strike, Unerring Weapon
2: Communal Endure Elements, Resist Energy, Returning Weapon, Returning Weapon, "enhancement" spell (Cat's Grace, etc)
3: Protection from Energy, Communal Returning Weapon, Haste, Slow,
4: Stoneskin, Communal Protection From Energy
Special Abilities Available: Allying, Countering, Courageous, Defending, Huntsman, Menacing, Ominous
Magical Focus
Wielder Feat: Magical Aptitude
Spell-like Abilities:
1: Any level 1 Sorcerer/Wizard Spell or Cantrip
2: Any level 2 Sorcerer/Wizard Spell
3: Any level 3 Sorcerer/Wizard Spell
4: Any level 4 Sorcerer/Wizard Spell
Special Abilities Available: Countering, Dispelling, Limning, Quenching, Spellstoring, Thawing
Powerful
Wielder Feat: Cleave
Special Abilities Available: Deadly, Keen, Mighty cleaving, Ominous
Transformative
Wielder Feat: Run
Spell-like Abilities
1: Dazzling Blade, Disquise Self, Enlarge Person, Reduce Person, Youthful Appearance
2: Disquise Other, Minor Image, Mirror Image, Alter Self, Make Whole, Animal Aspect
3: Magic Image, Vision of Hell, Beast Shape, Monsterous Physique I, Shrink Item
4: Illusionary Wall, Beast Shape II, Elemental Body I, Monsterous Physique II, Enlarge Mass, Reduce Mass
Special Abilities Available: Glamered, Courageous, Deadly, Keen, Mimetic, Neutralizing, Seaborne
Well of Knowledge:
Wielder Feat: Breadth of Knowledge
Spell-like Abilities
1: True Strike, Comp Languages, Identify, Detect Magic, Protection From Good/Evil/Law/Chaos
2: Communial Protection From Good/Evil/Law/Chaos, Share Language, Share Memories, Elemental Speech
3: Dispell Magic, Magic Circle Against Good/Evil/Law/Chaos, Tongues
4: True Form, Dimensional Door, Locate Creature, Communal Tongues, Greater Darkvision
Special Abilities Available: Countering, Dispelling, Spellstoring
All
*every provenance has access to these special abilities
-Flaming, Frost, Corrosive, Grounding, Guardian, Jurist, Ki Focus, Shock, Thundering, Throwing,
@Player Killer: I liked the V.2 non-caster variant right up until the Eldritch boons that are spell-like abilities. Spell casting by another term. I'm getting very confused with all the electus variants here now...
Thanks for the great input Oceanshieldwolf! I agree with you. The Eldritch Boons are a piece that just doesn't feel like it's coming together right witht he overall concept. What do people think about replacing them with something like "Boon of the Forge"? The Electus would be able to select a permanent special ability for his calibur at specific levels. I'm thinking something along the lines of the special abilities intelligent weapons can have from the core rule book. That would give the electus a little more power without adding spell casting but keep it tied to the concept of the power stemming from the weapon and being channeled by the electus. Any ideas people have in this area would be greatly appreciated.
I'm working on version 3 and am hoping to have it posted this weekend. Here are some design aspects I'm struggling with and could really use input from all the great people posting on this thread. Here they are:
1) I'm trying to determine how long each temper should remain active. For those that cost 1 forge point to activate the temper, how long should any given temper stay active (1 round/minute/hour)? Any thoughts people have on specific tempers would be a big help. Do you think this electus variant gets enough forge points? Right now most of his tempers last for rounds. I'm worried he will run out of points too quickly. If my worries are founded, we can fix by changing how long a temper lasts when a forge point is pumped into it, expand the size of his forge pool or both. Thoughts?
2) I'm changing how the special weapons features work in version 3. In v3 "Special Weapons Features" is a special ability the electus gains at level 5. The electus can spend a forge point to temporarily add one special weapon features to his calibur. I thought this would allow him to adjust his calibur quickly based on the combat situation he is in. Should he be able to add more than one special weapon feature at a time?
3) In v3, the "Reforge Soul" feat will be an ability the electus gains at level 11th level (Great idea +5 Toaster). Thoughts?
4) What are people's thoughts on the tempers? Does that system work for you? Do you like the tempers so far? v3 is up to 24 tempers so far. I'm shooting for 30 and could really use some ideas. Here is one of the new ones that captures a classic Thor-like move:
Shocking Impact (Su): The electus can spend a forge point to strike his calibur against the ground causing a shock wave that emanates out from the point of impact. Any individuals within a 10 foot circumference + 5 feet per electus level of the impact must make a Reflex save of 10 + ½ the electus’ level + his Charisma modifier or be knocked prone. The electus is not affected by the shockwave. This temper cannot be used with a ranged melee calibur.
5) In v3 level 17 is currently a dead level. If we go with something along the lines of the "Boon of the Forge" idea I could throw a "boon" in there. Other ideas?
I'm leaning towards Oceanshieldwolf's take in terms of not expanding the electus' skills. I think its ok for a class to be strong in one area and not so hot in others. That gives other skill-oriented classes a chance to shine.
If we can get a variant people really like, I would like to work together to put together a professional looking PDF of the class that we can post here for anyone to use. Maybe we could also include some feats and archetypes? I have a friend of a friend who is a professional artist can could do a really cool color icon picture for the class. I don't know if Spyder is still checking in on this thread but his PDF looked awesome! If he or someone with similar skills is out there and interested, I bet we could make it happen. Thoughts?
Keep those comments coming! :)
By the way, we must see this concept through to the end just so someone can play an electus with a horned boot calibur!
|
|
The entire idea of the "moment of greatness" was as the 'damage' enhancer of the class. All of the warrior classes have one (barbarians have rage, fighters have weapon groups, cavaliers have challenge, and so on).
The idea of the magic weapon is fine but the class needs alittle more than that. I've heard some say 'support'. That can mean alot of different things. Alot of the stuff in the 2nd electus build are there to help generate ways to expand the class.
As for the issue with 'tank', I have a number of problems with just making a tank. Base classes (level 1 to 20 classes) have to possess the option for broad customization as well as specialization. The only class that are not really broad (not counting archetypes) are the gunslinger and paladin.
I do not mind making one such specialization 'tank' but I do not think that should encompass the entire class.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Hi all- Here is version 3 of the non-caster electus variant. LBM - I hope you don't mind but I really liked the moment of greatness and inspiration concepts you developed and included versions of those abilities in this Electus draft. I also reworked the background of the electus to try and explain why they are called the chosen. I did some cleanup work on tempers as well. I'm not happy with the capstone ability and will be working out a new one this weekend. Any suggestions? I look forward to everyone's comments.
Hi all- Here is version 3 of the non-caster electus variant. LBM - I hope you don't mind but I really liked the moment of greatness and inspiration concepts you developed and included versions of those abilities in this Electus draft. I also reworked the background of the electus to try and explain why they are called the chosen. I did some cleanup work on tempers as well. I'm not happy with the capstone ability and will be working out a new one this weekend. Any suggestions? I look forward to everyone's comments.
how about adding to the capstone that the electus chooses one of his tempers and gains it as a constant effect for as long as he points in his forge pool.
I'm wondering if we can make some mechanic that can replace the forge pool. The pool and the tempers still feel very magus-like.
You need a line that says you cannot sell the calibur.
Good point about selling the calibur. I'll add it in. Thanks!
For this variant, I'm hesitant to remove the forge poool and tempers for a couple reasons. One is that it is a pretty straightforward system for giving this combat/tank oriented take on the electus magic abilities without adding in something that looks and feels like a magus', archon or Vanguard's spell casting abilities. I'm not to worried about the forge pool/tempers feeling magus-like because this type of mechanic has been used to create similar abilities across many classes (e.g. gunslingers & grit, rogue talents, alchemist discoveries, a witches hexes, Ninja tricks, synthesist summoner and evolutions, and magus arcana). That being said, I think your concept for the electus is very cool. Its just that the variant I'm working on is designed more for those people who have posted that they want an electus without spell-casting or spell-like abilities and who envisioned the electus' role as being a front-line combatant comparable to the fighter. The current forge pool and tempers are designed with the electus background fluff I revised in mind. By no means does that mean that the background I gave the class is the one that is used. It's just what I thought of for this variant and it works well with the forge point/tempers concept.
+5 Toaster (love that name!): giving some form of ability where the electus chooses one of his tempers and gains it as a constant effect for as long as he points in his forge pool as part of the capstone is a cool idea. Thanks!
Could a Wizard with levels in Electus make his/her calibur their arcane bone item?
|
|
There needs to be more to the class than the calibur itself. Right now, it's just a much weaker warrior with a magic weapon they don't need to buy. The blade bound magus is very similar but packs more of a punch (and with extra versatility) then any of the current builds.
I was looking at the description and it sounds like these weapons wouldn't be as maliable if they came from a dead warrior. Wouldn't their spirits force the weapon into a style that the warrior was used to? You might say its TEMPERment. ;p
There needs to be more to the class than the calibur itself. Right now, it's just a much weaker warrior with a magic weapon they don't need to buy. The blade bound magus is very similar but packs more of a punch (and with extra versatility) then any of the current builds.
I agree that my variant is to focused on the calibur but I don't agree that adding in spell casting is the way to fix it. That's been done and done well with classes like the magus, archon, vanguard and eldritch knight. I want to come up with something different. That doesn't mean you can't create your own variant, but the one I'm working on won't have spell casting abilities. Right now I'm working on abilities that involve calling on the power of the souls that make up the calibur.
I was looking at the description and it sounds like these weapons wouldn't be as maliable if they came from a dead warrior. Wouldn't their spirits force the weapon into a style that the warrior was used to? You might say its TEMPERment. ;p
The calibur (in my variant)needs a sentient being to give it form. It is the will of the electus that defines its shape. I'll try to clarify that in version 4.
There needs to be more to the class than the calibur itself. Right now, it's just a much weaker warrior with a magic weapon they don't need to buy. The blade bound magus is very similar but packs more of a punch (and with extra versatility) then any of the current builds.I agree that my variant is to focused on the calibur but I don't agree that adding in spell casting is the way to fix it. That's been done and done well with classes like the magus, archon, vanguard and eldritch knight. I want to come up with something different. That doesn't mean you can't create your own variant, but the one I'm working on won't have spell casting abilities. Right now I'm working on abilities that involve calling on the power of the souls that make up the calibur.
The calibur (in my variant)needs a sentient being to give it form. It is the will of the electus that defines its shape. I'll try to clarify that in version 4.
I was looking at the description and it sounds like these weapons wouldn't be as maliable if they came from a dead warrior. Wouldn't their spirits force the weapon into a style that the warrior was used to? You might say its TEMPERment. ;p
how about changing moment of greatness and inspiration of the ages to electus abilities instead? this could symbolize what the caliber saw in the electus in the first place.
|
|
I'm just saying we need more than the equivalent of the magus' arcane pool to describe the calibur. It does needs something of a new mechanic to make it broader, but restrictive, in every one of the builds. Something similiar to a cavalier's order, cleric's domain, or Oracle's mysteries. It gives the player a lot of choices but restricts them at the same time.
We're in a spot where we have a class that just possesses a magic weapon. Yes, they can customize it on the fly but that's been done. We need something far more than that for a unique class experience. The character (besides the calibur) needs to do more. In the case of every hero that wields a calibur-like weapon, the weapon doesn't make the hero.
What we need to do is drum up ideas along those lines.
Rather than focus on some weapon that a spilt from a person, it would be better to have it ambiguous. That way we can make broader categories in the class. Maybe the sentient being weapon (intelligent magic weapons are the same thing) contains some awsome fighter lore that gives a chain of feats (improved trip, greater trip) while the character wields it?
another thought concerning class gimick, what if the electus had some sort of temporarily manifested shining greatness. i was thinking that it was an idea similar to barbarians rage, except he gets a charisma bonus and a deflection bonus to AC. You could even flavor it further with constant spell-like abilities that are added as he levels (for example level one would have the daylight spell active for the duration). i was thinking the name Presence would be short sweet and to the point.
another thought concerning class gimick, what if the electus had some sort of temporarily manifested shining greatness. i was thinking that it was an idea similar to barbarians rage, except he gets a charisma bonus and a deflection bonus to AC. You could even flavor it further with constant spell-like abilities that are added as he levels (for example level one would have the daylight spell active for the duration). i was thinking the name Presence would be short sweet and to the point.
I think Toaster is onto something. A charisma-based class ability that has nothing to do with the calibur or improving it. Something that makes the Electus shine, either literally or figuratively.
Thor, He-man, and King Arthur all had one thing in common (besides awesome weapons): they were rightful heirs to thrones. They all started out as humble mortals in some incarnation but through their caliburs they achieved their inherit greatness.Perhaps the Caliburs seek out rightful kings, lost heirs to ancient bloodlines to kingdoms long forgotten.
I think it would be cool to play a 1st level character with a magical beat stick and find out that I am descended from an emperor to an empire that may or may not still exist.
Anyway, a Royal Bloodline or Blood of Kings angle is a fantasy feature found in countless books. Yet it has rarely/barely been touched upon by this game as a class mechanic.
This class is really over powered at level 1.
I love the flavor, but I could break the crap out of it.Charisma 16 all other stats balanced lightly as needed
Arcane pool 4.
two handed (anything) = 1d8 +1 hit/dmg
6 weapon points at level 1
"the electus can redistribute the weapon points of his calibur; this costs a number of points from his arcane pool equal to the number of weapon points that were redistributed."
Juke: Thanks for the mathematical analysis! This is super helpful! Can you tell me what variant and what version you analyzed? Where in the write up did you find the above quote?
two handed (anything/flavor) = 1d8 +1 hit/dmg 18-20 x3 crit
plus one point to toss on flaming for a minute.
I'll have to look over the mechanics. My intent was that at best the calibur would be +1 at level 1. I think I'll add that a calibur cannot be enchanted temporarily or permanently. Perhaps the forge pool should be dropped down to 1/2 Cha instead of full Cha.
This is all off the top of my head, and I'm pretty sure I could do better then this if I analyzed it.
Please do! I have never designed a class before and could really benefit from this sort of analysis. I hope you stick around the thread and keeping offering analysis and suggestions.
Also, the weapon is pretty indestructible, and even if it does get destroyed, there is no penalty. Flavor wise, so much for being a shard of his soul. Even losing a familiar F's you up, this should outright kill you if not at least cause a negative level for the day.
This is a great point and I'm kicking myself for not thinking of it. Version 4 will address this concern. Thanks!
another thought concerning class gimick, what if the electus had some sort of temporarily manifested shining greatness. i was thinking that it was an idea similar to barbarians rage, except he gets a charisma bonus and a deflection bonus to AC. You could even flavor it further with constant spell-like abilities that are added as he levels (for example level one would have the daylight spell active for the duration). i was thinking the name Presence would be short sweet and to the point.I think Toaster is onto something. A charisma-based class ability that has nothing to do with the calibur or improving it. Something that makes the Electus shine, either literally or figuratively.
Thor, He-man, and King Arthur all had one thing in common (besides awesome weapons): they were rightful heirs to thrones. They all started out as humble mortals in some incarnation but through their caliburs they achieved their inherit greatness.
Perhaps the Caliburs seek out rightful kings, lost heirs to ancient bloodlines to kingdoms long forgotten.
I think it would be cool to play a 1st level character with a magical beat stick and find out that I am descended from an emperor to an empire that may or may not still exist.Anyway, a Royal Bloodline or Blood of Kings angle is a fantasy feature found in countless books. Yet it has rarely/barely been touched upon by this game as a class mechanic.
I agree 100% with LBM that we need some sort of line of cool and unique abilities. I really like the whole Cha line of abilities based on descent from kings concept. I'd like to see us brainstorm along those lines. Im already getting some ideas. Some thoughts on things kings do that might promote discussion on a line of abilities unique from other classes:
>kings inspire>Kings lead
>kings command
>kings levy taxes (I know this one is out there but maybe an ability to "tax" opponents gives them penalties...just throwing stuff out to see what sticks)
>kings have subjects/followers.
What else?
The descent from ancient warrior kings could also fit in nicely with the new Ultimate Campaign book coming out soon where you have rules to build a kingdom.
|
I've read the non-caster Electus, and I have a lot of issues to point out; first of all, I think it should not be it's own base class but a feat tree, maybe included within a specific fighter archetype (losing weapon training, armor training, bravery and the ability to select fighter-only feats). You should rename the class or the blade as it brings confusion between the two.
But for the class features themselves :
Electus weapon: the electus receives proficiency with all simple and martial weapons but there is no reason to ever use one. Plus, there are few reasons to ever use an electus considering its inherent crippling weakness. Thematically, it fits better to make the electus similar to any other weapon, except of higher and magic quality. Instead of slamming your heads on the wall by writting specific properties for the electus (what about special properties, ranged weapons, special weapons ?), it is simpler to say you can make any kind of weapon your electus, and grant this specific weapon some boni in addition to its normal rules... a bit like the magus's blackblade, but allowing a bow or firearm to be selected, for example. No need to reinvent powder, just take what is working (magus blackblade) and expand on this ability piece by piece to allow more weapons, more talents, and a full-BAB build.
I could actually see most of its class powers as permanent but mostly unalterable, trading the magus's versatility and nova power for the fighter's damage constancy.
Forge Pool: you must do a list of the available magic properties, or at least, a list of exceptions. Bane especially is too powerful a property to apply it on the fly, especially for a full BAB class, and for such reason it is always put out of the list of classes who possess similar abilities (paladin's divine bond, magus's arcane pool...).
Electus tempers:
- Agile Wielder: the bonus should be written as an enhancement bonus. I could see this ability permanent, especially since it will be weak for the first levels and not stack with belts later on.
- Awaken Calibur: if the weapon can "fly" ? Can I use levitate to gain a free dancing weapon ? I feel the base effect should be permanent; and the secondary one, activated to make your weapon a dancing weapon with a BAB based on your level + electus's enhancement + eventual WF feats + your Charisma modifier.
- Bestow Calibur: should not be an ability at all, but a roleplay opportunity available to any character depending on the situation (even if the electus weapon itself would never admit it).
- Calibur of Force: you can already sunder walls of force with a sword; this ability should provide a hardness penetration instead.
- Cannibalize Calibur: should provoke a save from the weapon, or be an ability to transfer damage you suffer to your weapon instead.
- Devastating Calibur: sadly a must-have with the current rules; an overpowered trap with normal weapons.
- Eldritch strike: if using normal weapons as electus, this ability may be rewritten in order to allow the possibility so spend a standard action to perform a ranged attack as a ranged touch attack instead (using all the weapons's bonuses to attack and damage). Otherwise, this seems too magic-ey for a melee weapon and should only allow a ranged touch attack without any bonus to attack and damage (think Zelda's mastersword). As it is right now, it is a swift action, touch attack 1d6 damage/level, way too powerful and out-of-topic for the class's concept.
- Hardy Wielder: same as agile wielder; and these abilities should not stack with each other.
- Jotun Wielder: the concept is fine but the execution should keep the format and ruling of oversized weapons or similar properties. A simple "treat the weapon as one size category larger as if under the effects or a lead blade spell" would do the trick.
- Meld Calibur: should be permanent and at-will, with penalties/impossibility to perform some actions with this arm when meld.
- Mighty Wielder: see Agile and Hardy.
- Nimble Calibur: should not be required or even exist; uterly useless most of the time and only useful to offset penalties that should not be.
- Rapid Reforge: I think the weapon shouldn't even have to be reforged. Make the electus sunderable and destructible, but when put to 0 hp, while unusable, the weapon is not destroyed. Rapid Reforge would act as a 1d6/two levels mending effect on the blade.
- Reaver's Fury: should last a number of rounds equal to the electus's Charisma modifier.
- Reforge calibur: why not, but should allow a single weapon type the calibur is already proficient with, chosen when taking this talent (while the calibur itself would give proficiency with it's original type to its wielder).
- Shocking Impact: No. Swift action trip on a failed save against all targets within several squares ? Just no. Make it a free trip against a target on a hit by spending one point + 1 point per size category over yourself or your weapon's size (hey Jotun-combo !) and we're speaking. Then, eventually, a secondary talent with THIS talent as a prerequisite to slam the ground with a bludgeoning weapon as a full-round action and spend 1 point for each enemy within range you wish to attempt a trip on (+1 per size category, again), a bit like a whirlwind attack.
- Electus Skin: No again. Swift action is too fast, and this talent basically allows you to receive your level in temporary hit points each round. Make it simple DR/Adamantine and we are speaking.
- Spell Parying Electus: how do this parry work ?
- Spit Calibur: should be permanent.
- Summon Ammunition: I guess it works as it is, but what kind of ammunition does it produce ?
- Summon Calibur: see the blackblade.
- Unwieldable Calibur: fun and cool. I could see someone sending his own weapon to an enemy; which would be affected by this curse in addition to being unable to benefit from the weapon's bonuses.
Inspiration of The Ages: 1/day + 1 at levels 7 and 10 should be enough; otherwise make it self only. Remember that these are immediate action spells and as thus forbid the use of swift actions in the following round.
Moment of Greatness: you already have Inspiration of the ages, this ability makes you rely less on your physical abilities and is too much with what you already receive.
But well, just my 2 cp.
Wow Maxximilius! Thank you so much for this review! This is exactly the kind of mechanics review needed to figure out what is overpowering, what is underpowerd, what isn't clear, etc.
I've read the non-caster Electus, and I have a lot of issues to point out; first of all, I think it should not be it's own base class but a feat tree, maybe included within a specific fighter archetype (losing weapon training, armor training, bravery and the ability to select fighter-only feats).
I think making a feat tree or archetype are very valid options but the goal of the thread (the original thread) was to make a class that "was inspired by every character who found a mysterious weapon that turned them into a mystical warrior." I see this project as filling an interesting niche that is largely unfilled at the moment. It is also a great chance to try and learn how to develop a balanced and fun class to play.
You should rename the class or the blade as it brings confusion between the two.
The class name is the "Electus". The weapon's name is a "calibur". The class name was created by Arcanemuses and means "the chosen" in Latin. I'm not sure where the confusion is coming in but if you can point me text that is worded in a confusing manner and I'll try to clean it up.
Electus weapon: the electus receives proficiency with all simple and martial weapons but there is no reason to ever use one. Plus, there are few reasons to ever use an electus considering its inherent crippling weakness.
What if the electus wants to dual wield with his calibur and another melee weapon? Wouldn't he take penalties if he wasn't proficient in these other weapons? Can you describe the "inherent crippling weakness"? Is it in the weapon (the calibur) or in some aspect of the class (the electus)?
Thematically, it fits better to make the electus similar to any other weapon, except of higher and magic quality. Instead of slamming your heads on the wall by writting specific properties for the electus (what about special properties, ranged weapons, special weapons ?), it is simpler to say you can make any kind of weapon your electus, and grant this specific weapon some boni in addition to its normal rules... a bit like the magus's blackblade, but allowing a bow or firearm to be selected, for example.
Good suggestion. This could simplify the mechanics a bit. I'll rework it in version 4.
I could actually see most of its class powers as permanent but mostly unalterable, trading the magus's versatility and nova power for the fighter's damage constancy.
Very interesting idea. The excellent analysis of the temper abilities has given me a lot to think about. I will be studying them closely as version 4 is being developed.
Forge Pool: you must do a list of the available magic properties, or at least, a list of exceptions. Bane especially is too powerful a property to apply it on the fly, especially for a full BAB class, and for such reason it is always put out of the list of classes who possess similar abilities (paladin's divine bond, magus's arcane pool...).
Excellent point! Besides bane, are there other magic properties that break the class and should be struck from the list (and I will make a list)?
Once again Maxximilius, thanks! I hope you will take a look at version 4 of this variant when I get it done.
Thor, He-man, and King Arthur all had one thing in common (besides awesome weapons): they were rightful heirs to thrones. They all started out as humble mortals in some incarnation but through their caliburs they achieved their inherit greatness.
Perhaps the Caliburs seek out rightful kings, lost heirs to ancient bloodlines to kingdoms long forgotten.
I think it would be cool to play a 1st level character with a magical beat stick and find out that I am descended from an emperor to an empire that may or may not still exist.
I agree Arcanemuses. I think the king concept is ripe for mining in terms of fluff and abilities. Maybe part of the class involves an overriding desire to build his own kingdom? Again, this could work well with the new rules coming out in Ultimate Campaign. I'll work something along these lines into version 4 of this variant.
I'm just saying we need more than the equivalent of the magus' arcane pool to describe the calibur. It does needs something of a new mechanic to make it broader, but restrictive, in every one of the builds. Something similiar to a cavalier's order, cleric's domain, or Oracle's mysteries. It gives the player a lot of choices but restricts them at the same time.
What about building off of the lost king sort of concept? Maybe an electus must choose from multiple "Reigns" or "Kingdoms" and this "Reign" or "Kingdom" grants special abilities at avrious levels along a theme. For example, maybe we would have a "Kingdom of the Warmonger" or "Kingdom of War" and there would be specific abilities gained at certain levels related to war, battle, death, destruction...Just some quick ideas for "Kingdoms/Reign" to stimulate discussion(some are redundant or could be folded into others):
Reign/Kingdom of:
Light
Darkness
War/Warmongering
Justice
Horror
Madness
Death
Hope
Thoughts? I like LBM's idea about adding in something like a cleric's domain or cavalier's order. What are people's thoughts on balance?
|
|
I think making a feat tree or archetype are very valid options but the goal of the thread (the original thread) was to make a class that "was inspired by every character who found a mysterious weapon that turned them into a mystical warrior." I see this project as filling an interesting niche that is largely unfilled at the moment. It is also a great chance to try and learn how to develop a balanced and fun class to play.
Indeed, actually, I think the feat tree wouldn't be a so-great idea. It's fine as a base class or archetype.
The class name is the "Electus". The weapon's name is a "calibur". The class name was created by Arcanemuses and means "the chosen" in Latin. I'm not sure where the confusion is coming in but if you can point me text that is worded in a confusing manner and I'll try to clean it up.
My bad, I had my mind elsewhere and didn't notice it. I think it's because some talents provide an adjective to the calibur that doesn't fit well with an item (english is not my native language).
What if the electus wants to dual wield with his calibur and another melee weapon? Wouldn't he take penalties if he wasn't proficient in these other weapons? Can you describe the "inherent crippling weakness"? Is it in the weapon (the calibur) or in some aspect of the class (the electus)?
Maybe the calibur could grant the appropriate proficiency feat to its wielder, allowing a character to dual wield a calibur with a similar weapon. A pistol calibur would grant proficiency with pistols, etc. Another option is simply to grant proficiency with simple and martial weapons; while the calibur itself would provide proficiency with itself and any similar weapon.
Here is an example of what I personally did when I tried to do a similar concept. It should give you a sample of the rules, loopholes and potential questions you need to think about when designing a similar ability so the effects are clear and leave no possibility to interpretation or abuse (even though this ability is a secondary class feature for a 2/3 BAB class):At 2nd level, a mime can choose one melee or ranged weapon he is proficient with. By spending one round of his daily allotment of bardic performance as a free action, a mime can materialize this weapon during one round. When materializing a weapon in this way, the mime typically pretends to hold the weapon in a common, exaggerated fashion, or as if his arms or fingers were part of the weapon. The weapon is invisible, and only a vague crystalline, shimmering silhouette of it appears when it is used to make an attack.
A melee weapon deals 1d4 + the bard's Charisma modifier damage on a successful hit, or 1d8 + 1–1/2 times the bard's Charisma modifier if the weapon is two-handed (respectively 1d3 and 1d6 for a small creature).
A ranged weapon deals half it's base damage dice, uses Charisma instead of Strength for the purposes of composite bows, and materializes unloaded. Basic ammunition specific to the chosen weapon, including powder, is created when the mime reloads this weapon and vanishes if unloaded, though real ammunition may be used with a mimetic weapon. Weapons created this way and thrown reappear in the mime's hand after the attack is resolved. Otherwise, the weapon has the same properties than the original weapon, including critical range and modifier, special weapon properties, damage type, resistance, hit points, reloading time, misfire range, etc.
The mime is the only one able to wield such a weapon. It vanishes as a free action whenever the mime decides it or at the beginning of his next round, though he may then spend one round of bardic performance as a free action for the weapon to stay into existence.
At level 6, and every four levels later, the mime may choose another weapon he can materialize this way.
At 2nd level, the materialized weapon is treated as having the masterwork quality. At 4th, 6th, 10th, 14th and 18th level, the weapon gains another +1 enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +5 at 18th level.
At 10th level, he can spend three rounds of bardic performance instead to materialize a weapon dealing force damage instead of normal weapon damage.
The weakness is in the fact that a basic calibur is less powerful than a martial weapon it would reproduce. I can not speak about the balance of the class itself as it will depend on a lot of rewrite; but most of the properties feel overpowered while the weapon itself is underpowered - which does not make for a balanced design. I'll stick to my advice to take what is working (blackblade) and expand it to an universal full BAB class able to choose any weapon, then some talents.
It will obviously not have all of a blackblade's properties, but you will start with a good base.
I suggest you analyze the magus, paladin and fighter classes in order to see how the balance is kept; you may also see the Shadow Assassin by SGG, and notably the Shadowblade and Two-weapon Style talents which would be balanced to reproduce in a different fashion for a full BAB class.
What you should look for whenever you write an ability, is any feature that seems so good every build would take it, or clearly overshadows others. The Bane property is one of them; as is Furious or Courageous if you may receive this ability soon (before 2nd or 3rd level) in the class as it would make a nifty level to take early for a barbarian. I do not know of others that require special attention (see the magus, paladin and antipaladin ability lists for examples of what is balanced for use).
... and note that these advices come from someone who never got to make a good base class (though I tried). This is probably one of the hardest things to get right, requiring a perfect sense of system mastery to provide both a balanced, customizable and versatile option.
Kingdom, Reign, Dynasty... I like Reign the best because it is not too Eastern or Western.
Another mechanic to compliment Reign is "Line" (Since bloodline is taken).
"I am the Electus of the calibur known as Mjolnir. I come from the Line of Odin.
I dunno.
It should also be stressed that being an Electus does not automatically grant rulership or entitle you to anything other than the calibur. Even Aragorn of Arathorn, Last in the Line of Isildur, had to earn and regain his kingdom.
Thanks again Maxximilius! You continue to give me much food for thought.
Maybe the calibur could grant the appropriate proficiency feat to its wielder, allowing a character to dual wield a calibur with a similar weapon. A pistol calibur would grant proficiency with pistols, etc. Another option is simply to grant proficiency with simple and martial weapons; while the calibur itself would provide proficiency with itself and any similar weapon.
The weakness is in the fact that a basic calibur is less powerful than a martial weapon it would reproduce. I can not speak about the balance of the class itself as it will depend on a lot of rewrite; but most of the properties feel overpowered while the weapon itself is underpowered - which does not make for a balanced design. I'll stick to my advice to take what is working (blackblade) and expand it to an universal full BAB class able to choose any weapon, then some talents.
It will obviously not have all of a blackblade's properties, but you will start with a good base.
I'll take a look at the blackblade and see what I can do to address imbalances. Thanks!
What you should look for whenever you write an ability, is any feature that seems so good every build would take it, or clearly overshadows others. The Bane property is one of them; as is Furious or Courageous if you may receive this ability soon (before 2nd or 3rd level) in the class as it would make a nifty level to take early for a barbarian. I do not know of others that require special attention (see the magus, paladin and antipaladin ability lists for examples of what is balanced for use).
Great advice!
... and note that these advices come from someone who never got to make a good base class (though I tried). This is probably one of the hardest things to get right, requiring a perfect sense of system mastery to provide both a balanced, customizable and versatile option.
I agree. I've done some third party freelance work designing monsters, class abilities, spells, even an entire adventure and this project is by far the hardest of any of them. Thank you gain for your input. It is a big help!
Maxximilius-What are your thoughts in terms of balance if we added in a concept like "Reigns" or "Kingdoms" that would grant abilities something like a cleric's domain or cavalier's order. If we did this would you still suggest making some of the tempers permanent?
Kingdom, Reign, Dynasty... I like Reign the best because it is not too Eastern or Western.
Cool. I will use the term "Reign" in version 4.
It should also be stressed that being an Electus does not automatically grant rulership or entitle you to anything other than the calibur. Even Aragorn of Arathorn, Last in the Line of Isildur, had to earn and regain his kingdom.
I agree. I will make sure this is clear in the description.
|
|
You may technically add almost anything, as long as you taketh back somewhere else. See how the domain is balanced with other features on an Inquisitor, for example. As a rule of thumb, a base class should not get better than the base class this iconic ability comes from (an electus should not have a more potent cavalier order than a cavalier; if he wants the same class feature, he shall trade something equivalent or just be a cavalier archetype) - a calibur with a single domain would have half the versatility of a cleric, so it could be done (note how the inquisitor followed this advice). I may not judge with pure theorycrafting without seeing how it is actually applied.
The way I would probably do it myself would be to link the domain to the weapon, accordingly to the weapon's background. I would also link the calibur to the wielder in a symbiotic fashion as he gains levels, allowing him to treat any weapon as his calibur at higher levels. These could replace some of the blackblade's magic features used by a magus.
The questions you need to answer before producing the class is:
- do you want a pure martial class ? In this case, you need to stay far from (Su) and (Sp) abilities not directly related to the calibur and it's effects - you are not playing a mystic swordsman, but a common guy with a great item, learning to become a hero/champion/greatmaster himself. Hence the permanent talents and some ability surges, while a magus gets only awesome ability surges but a lack of durability. Note that there are almost no instances of (Su) or (Sp) fighter/gunslinger abilities, with some extremely rare exceptions.
- do you want the weapon to define your entire ability progression ? In this case, you take the risk to make your weapon the actual cool character while the wielder is just some kind of lame leech (which is fun as a character concept, not as a design feature). I believe SGG's Dragon Rider, while balanced and flavorful, suffers from this issue.
- how may I play this class in different fashions ? As a rule of thumb, I noticed there should always be a minimum of at least three distinct, iconic, efficient ways to customize or play a class (fighter: agile/brute/ranged/combat maneuvers; gunslinger: pistolero/musketeer (DB musket or simple)/versatile gunman; ranger: animal companion/spells/combat styles; cleric: domains choice/channel energy/necromancy or not/spellcasting or combat...)
Arthur, Thor, and He-Man had another thing in common. Each has a mentor who uses magic: Merlin, Odin, and Sorceress.
I see this class (at least the non-spellcasting version) customizable as a fighter: agile/brute/ranged/combat maneuvers. The main difference between the two is mundane skill and supernatural choseness (aptitude). I don't really recommend borrowing from other classes. We tried that with the magus class features. While I still LOVE Spyder's build I feel that Player Killer and Loyal Battle Monkey are better of fleshing out a whole new feature mechanic that will blow people's minds and melt their faces off.
Arthur, Thor, and He-Man had another thing in common. Each has a mentor who uses magic: Merlin, Odin, and Sorceress.
Great Observation, Ciaran!
|
|
I see this class (at least the non-spellcasting version) customizable as a fighter: agile/brute/ranged/combat maneuvers. The main difference between the two is mundane skill and supernatural choseness (aptitude). I don't really recommend borrowing from other classes. We tried that with the magus class features. While I still LOVE Spyder's build I feel that Player Killer and Loyal Battle Monkey are better of fleshing out a whole new feature mechanic that will blow people's minds and melt their faces off.
What I mean is that you need -iconic- options. Look at SGG's Mighty Godling: it allows to play characters like Achille or Heracles, yet the powers are originals outside of the classic class feature borrowing from time to time. If I play an agile character, I want my weapon able to turn into a whip on the fly or parry an attack on it's own; if I play a brute, I want flashy barbarian-like abilities and the ability to shatter the earth with my bare, litteral iron fist.
It is never a bad idea to take inspiration and lessons from the way other classes are written.
Arthur, Thor, and He-Man had another thing in common. Each has a mentor who uses magic: Merlin, Odin, and Sorceress.Great Observation, Ciaran!
What to do with it - and the decision to or not - is unclear. I'll do some quick brainstorming, but it might be too much trouble to throw another ingredient into the pot.
1) An ally can cast spells on the Electus at a higher caster level.
2) The Electus has a small list of spells known but not the ability to cast them, allowing him to use certain scrolls and wands.
3) The Electus learns a few cantrips.
4) An ally of the Electus can cast Imbue with Spell Ability on him without knowing the spell or devoting a spell slot towards it.
5) The electus can count as a familiar or companion. (OK, weird, right?)
By Thor's hammer AND the power of Grayskull you have all given me a ton of great ideas and advice as I start work on version 4 of this variant of the electus. Thank you and please keep it up!!
While I still LOVE Spyder's build I feel that Player Killer and Loyal Battle Monkey are better of fleshing out a whole new feature mechanic that will blow people's minds and melt their faces off.
At the least the bar isn't set high ;) I can't promise any Raiders of the Lost Ark style face melting but I'm going to keep hammering away at it. At the very least I'm learning a lot about class design.
The questions you need to answer before producing the class is:
- do you want a pure martial class ? In this case, you need to stay far from (Su) and (Sp) abilities not directly related to the calibur and it's effects - you are not playing a mystic swordsman, but a common guy with a great item, learning to become a hero/champion/greatmaster himself. Hence the permanent talents and some ability surges, while a magus gets only awesome ability surges but a lack of durability. Note that there are almost no instances of (Su) or (Sp) fighter/gunslinger abilities, with some extremely rare exceptions.
- do you want the weapon to define your entire ability progression ? In this case, you take the risk to make your weapon the actual cool character while the wielder is just some kind of lame leech (which is fun as a character concept, not as a design feature). I believe SGG's Dragon Rider, while balanced and flavorful, suffers from this issue.
- how may I play this class in different fashions ? As a rule of thumb, I noticed there should always be a minimum of at least three distinct, iconic, efficient ways to customize or play a class (fighter: agile/brute/ranged/combat maneuvers; gunslinger: pistolero/musketeer (DB musket or simple)/versatile gunman; ranger: animal companion/spells/combat styles; cleric: domains choice/channel energy/necromancy or not/spellcasting or combat...)
Great summary questions Maxx. I think we need to answer these before moving much further as they will dictate how the class should be designed.
- do you want a pure martial class ? After all the recent discussion and ideas, I'm leaning towards "no". I'd like to see a combat oriented class with a strong mystic flavor, though not spell casting per se.- do you want the weapon to define your entire ability progression ? I think this is a major failure of the current version. I'd like to rework it so the calibur is an integral part of the class but not the entire class as it is now. I'm thinking that reworking tempers and adding the "Reigns" class feature will help to address this.
- how may I play this class in different fashions ? This is the hardest question for me to answer. I want to follow your sensible rule of thumb and have 3 ways to customize the class. I could really use some ideas on how to do this.
What I mean is that you need -iconic- options. Look at SGG's Mighty Godling: it allows to play characters like Achille or Heracles, yet the powers are originals outside of the classic class feature borrowing from time to time. If I play an agile character, I want my weapon able to turn into a whip on the fly or parry an attack on it's own; if I play a brute, I want flashy barbarian-like abilities and the ability to shatter the earth with my bare, litteral iron fist.
Well said Maxximilius. I'll work on iconic options in version 4. As an aside, I'm a big van of your archetypes. If you ever do a dead tree version and/or a PDF with cool illustrations of some of the archetypes, I would buy it in a minute!
Ok, so I'm trying to gather my thoughts before taking a crack at version 4. Here some notes on what's rattling around in my head:
1) I'll add into the description material that the calibur's origin arises from warrior kings who die in battle. An electus is chosen to wield the calibur because he/she has the potential to become a great king/queen/ruler. Note that great doesn't necessarily translate into "good".
2)The next draft will make use of "Reigns" as a class feature that attempts to give the class iconic and unique abilities. There will be multiple Reigns an electus can choose from. Each Reign will follow a theme that basically describes how the electus would rule should he or she actually establish a kingdom. There will be Reigns that would be appropriate for different alignments. The "Reigns" will likely grant the electus some form of mystic/magical abilities but not outright spell casting.
3)Tempers will be reworked for balance and their role possibly scaled back to help prevent the calibur from being the "main show" and the electus being an afterthought.
4) The mechanics of the calibur itself will be reworked so that a player can choose whatever base weapon they want and then adding on calibur abilities from there. A list of enchantments an electus can place on his calibur will be made as well.