As the title says: What about Golarion bugs you?
For me: The obvious real world expys.
What about you guys?
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as funny as it is to say i would say thing i dont like is the fact that its not flat.
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Nothing. If I do not like something I simply change it, I usually play the GM anyway =P.
That we haven't seen a Mendev/Worldwound adventure path yet. That's it, really.
But an entire campaign setting based around "getting x right"? Best thing ever. :D
It's not a bad setting at all. The more I see of it, the more I find myself going back for standard fantasy fare (with some twists, of course). Constant Lovecraftian elements, decent NPCs, and pretty good antagonist motivations keep me interested in the setting. That said, the setting has it's flaws.
Things Golarion could do without:
- Tolkien elves, hob-- halflings, and (by extension) half-elves and drow
- CE orcs
- 'always evil' undead and fiends and their unchanging natures
- deities (Pharasma specifically)
- most of Garund and Varisia
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It pushes Always Chaotic Evil for some races a bit too hard for my tastes, though I'm grateful for the exceptions that show it isn't really the case.
Not a fan of the Bekyar as written for similar reasons, but South Garund provides ample opportunity for non-evil members of that ethnicity.
Would also love to see more focus on Vudra, Jalmeray, and/or Osirion, but that's not really a complaint about the setting.
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As the title says: What about Golarion bugs you?
World spanning organisations.
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I hate the death of Aroden.
Specifically, I hate it because he was, essentially, the God of Humanity, and in pretty much every setting, humnas never have an offical patron god. Then comes along a setting that has one, and he dies. It makes me mad everytime I think about it.
If any other god had bit it, I would be fine.
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1) That elves had a big dump taken on them in the name of "We can't be like Greenwood elves, because that would be BAD!" Eradicating the green hair (despite that half the elves in the avatar database on this very site have green hair) and the elven reverie. (because sleeping is the ONLY thing one can do in a bed) Pretty much elves are just long-eared humans now.
2) That Gnomes were given ridiculous hair colors like pink, purple, green and blue. Seriously? The designers will abandon concepts that were purely created for the use in D&D games (and this IS a D&D game) or have basis in myths or faerie tales and embrace a concept coined by World of Warcraft?! I would hate this much less if certain designers didn't work so hard to take all the individuality from elves.
3) Pathfinder Hobgoblins. These things just look AWFUL! Great race. But they look plain terrible. Look at the regular old hobgoblins. You remember the blue-nosed ones? The ones in Samurai armor from the old Ral Partha figs or the MM1? I really like what Paizo did with goblins, and even bugbears and ogres, but what the heck with the Hobgoblins? They look like dumb grey stooges.
Everything else I can deal with. Not fond of the guns, crashed spaceships or about half of the gods, but its not so bad I disregard it entirely.
the thing that bugs me the most about Golarion is that I still haven't got around to familiarize myself with it and read the books about it.
Also the Gnomes, I really really liked the 3.5 ones, and now they are like that 4E quasi-elf race. Some weird extraterrestial green(haired) men.
Ankhegs, Bebiliths, Phase Spiders... stuff like that.
Ankhegs, Bebiliths, Phase Spiders... stuff like that.
Forgot the Phase Spiders. Ridiculous.
I think the Ankheg just got a really crappy illustration though in the MM. The one bursting from the ground at the iconic monk in one of the AP or other books looks much better.
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The lack of progressive evil.
The primary evil nations of Cheliax, Geb, Irrisen and Nidal are all working on internal things or settled and don't seem like they're going to be out and invading in any foreseeable future.
Most of the great evils are contained or otherwise unable to act, an actual demon lord has made a presence in the Worldwound but is locked in, Rovagug is imprisoned, Tar-Baphon is locked away. The Runelords are asleep.
I realize these exist so you can make plot threads with them, but maybe I'm just too used to a metaplot or something. It just seems like the world is...static.
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The gnome thing and the hobgoblin thing are both kind of irritating.
The thing that probably bugs me the most, though, is that there are just a few too many terrible things in this world. It's a little overdone.
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I really like the level of detail for each race/region/continent without it becoming micromanaged by Paizo.
That being said, what bothers me the most is the inclusion of every single real world culture. Avistan and Garund alone contain 7 continents worth of Earth history co-existing within the same time period.
Oh and those *horrible* revolutionary war uniforms in Andoran.
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The primary evil nations of Cheliax, Geb, Irrisen and Nidal are all working on internal things or settled and don't seem like they're going to be out and invading in any foreseeable future.
..clip...
I realize these exist so you can make plot threads with them, but maybe I'm just too used to a metaplot or something. It just seems like the world is...static.
Metaplot is a thing. Some people like it and some people do not. I'm kinda a fence sitter. If you want more of it PFS is claiming that they are going to be implementing it this season.
It should also be noted that Cheliax is in fact active in the shadow war to sieze control of Absalom. And shadow wars are much more suited to player activivity that the roll out the catapults kind of war. Not that anyone winning that perticular shadow war is likely.
That being said, what bothers me the most is the inclusion of every single real world culture. Avistan and Garund alone contain 7 continents worth of Earth history co-existing within the same time period.
Really? I don't even see a singe point in real world history that is anlalogous to the world struggeling to recover from the death of God and the end of prophecy. ;)
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Mortals.
What? You asked a question, you got an answer.
Oh, and deities too. Especially them.
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Really? I don't even see a singe point in real world history that is anlalogous to the world struggeling to recover from the death of God and the end of prophecy. ;)
Varisians = Gypsys/Eastern Europeans
Keleshites = Hollywood Arabs/PersiansMwangi - Sub-Saharan Africans
Ulfen - Nords
Tians - "Asians"
Vudrani - Indians (they even have three spiritual books...)
Osirion - Egypt
And these are the obvious ones.
It's just like the Realms with all of the Earth analogs. Ever check out the Talislanta world books? The game itself was horrible, but the each nation/culture/race was original. I would like to see more of that instead of Golarian's derivative fantasy.
Avistan is too small for my taste.
It's not a bad setting at all. The more I see of it, the more I find myself going back for standard fantasy fare (with some twists, of course). Constant Lovecraftian elements, decent NPCs, and pretty good antagonist motivations keep me interested in the setting. That said, the setting has it's flaws.
Things Golarion could do without:
- Tolkien elves, hob-- halflings, and (by extension) half-elves and drow
- CE orcs
- 'always evil' undead and fiends and their unchanging natures
- deities (Pharasma specifically)
- most of Garund and Varisia
You prefer dragon Origins and DA 2 then?
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Really? I don't even see a singe point in real world history that is anlalogous to the world struggeling to recover from the death of God and the end of prophecy. ;)Varisians = Gypsys/Eastern Europeans
Keleshites = Hollywood Arabs/Persians
Mwangi - Sub-Saharan Africans
Ulfen - Nords
Tians - "Asians"
Vudrani - Indians (they even have three spiritual books...)
Osirion - EgyptAnd these are the obvious ones.
It's just like the Realms with all of the Earth analogs. Ever check out the Talislanta world books? The game itself was horrible, but the each nation/culture/race was original. I would like to see more of that instead of Golarian's derivative fantasy.
Andoran= idealized colonial america
Galt= French revolution gone wildIrresen= Russia
Linnorn Kings= vikings
Mammoth Lords= stone age ice age europe north america
Mendev= cursaders
Mwangi Expanse= east africa
Taldor= decaying english kingdom
Ustalav= Romania
Varisia= Gypsies
What do I dislike? The non-human PC races are lousy. Dwarves have the sorriest back story I have ever read for a PC race. Elves are the most treacherous, back stabbing good race I have ever seen. Gnomes have no freaking clue where they are from (no First World info for the most part). Halflings have NO backstory to speak of. Oh yeah Elves have no idea what their home world is like either (though I like that elves are aliens from another planet).
Essentially, Golarion is a Human planet with some crappy non-human decorations for after thought flavor. To be honest, I would rather they had made Golarion human only and put all the other races into the Bestiary as opponents or allies.
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Ok my biggest gribes about the Golarion setting...
That it took until the Inner Sea World Guide to get a view of the world as a whole and how the Inner Sea area fits into it.
I dislike the real world culture analogues (as has already been mentioned) including the introduction of the Ninja and Samurai as actual classes in the setting. I don't mind real world cultures being used as inspiration, but in Golarion they are a bit too blatant which breaks me out of my immersion.
The lack of a coherent theme or feel - Golarion seems like a hodge podge of mini-settings, which are great in their own right (I especially like Darkmoon Vale) but that seem to grate when pushed up against one another in a single setting. The Edwardian type clothing of the Taldane portrait figure in the Gazateer alone put me off - it seemed too modern for a fantasy setting (ditto for the Andoran uniforms).
Setting bloat - more of a personal thing, but if I want to really get into a setting I like to be a bit of a completionist, however after starting to put together a list of all the Golarion setting books I soon saw I had no hope of catching up. The fact that it is all a mix of 3.5 and PF stuff is irritating as well.
The artwork - the unfeasibly large ears of elves and the colourful hair on the gnomes etc makes me think of the manga style of comic books - something I don't like.
Goblins - perhaps more from how they are portrayed by GMs and players, represented in forum discussions and protrayed in artwork, rather than how they are written up, but it seems that goblins are just comic relief now with a comic book like appearance (massive head on a little body). I would prefer them to be depicted as scary, insidious, feral creatures with their own serious culture. I very much like how Eberron made the goblins have their own empire before humans came along.
And now, I am off to address the Things You Love About Golarion thread for a bit of balance :)
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That we haven't seen a Mendev/Worldwound adventure path yet. That's it, really.
I don't think we have enough Varisia-themed ones.
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In the conversational and friendly tone that the thread is intended, I'd have to say "it's name soup".
I find a lot of fantasy to be very, very dense. Eight thousand little nations with their own little rulers, four thousand religions, each with different sects within. It's... dense. Plowing through huge amounts of background to try to differentiate two neighboring nations is rough. The visual equivalent is that the eye can differentiate 16.7 million colours. Okay, great. But a sheet with the three primaries is a lot easier to differentiate. Red very clearly isn't blue.
The only setting I've found that didn't do that was Eberron. The Five Nations were distinct and easy to encapsulate. The handful of religions were distinctive. Sure, there's a couple other continents, and pirates off to the East, and in Talenta you've got halflings and dinosaurs... which is to say everything had its place, but in a nutshell Eberron was something you could explain to someone in about a half hour. After several years of Golarion I've still got countries I'm reading about anew.
In the conversational and friendly tone that the thread is intended, I'd have to say "it's name soup".
I find a lot of fantasy to be very, very dense. Eight thousand little nations with their own little rulers, four thousand religions, each with different sects within. It's... dense. Plowing through huge amounts of background to try to differentiate two neighboring nations is rough. The visual equivalent is that the eye can differentiate 16.7 million colours. Okay, great. But a sheet with the three primaries is a lot easier to differentiate. Red very clearly isn't blue.
The only setting I've found that didn't do that was Eberron. The Five Nations were distinct and easy to encapsulate. The handful of religions were distinctive. Sure, there's a couple other continents, and pirates off to the East, and in Talenta you've got halflings and dinosaurs... which is to say everything had its place, but in a nutshell Eberron was something you could explain to someone in about a half hour. After several years of Golarion I've still got countries I'm reading about anew.
Yeah. I can definately agree with this. I still get Rahadoum and Razmiran mixed up all the bloody time...
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Not enough Taldor.*
Andoran being portrayed as too good.**
And to answer someone up thread, I like Thedas in part because the mysteries are growing. It's an advantage of the MMO background. I can't grab the 'GM's guide to Thedas' and have all my questions answered about Flemeth, the Teventers, the nature of the taint, etc. I get to discover them in game.
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I hate the death of Aroden.
Specifically, I hate it because he was, essentially, the God of Humanity, and in pretty much every setting, humnas never have an offical patron god. Then comes along a setting that has one, and he dies. It makes me mad everytime I think about it.
If any other god had bit it, I would be fine.
The thing is that humans basically get everything. They don't need an "official patron deity" because everything that isn't specifically defined as elven or dwarven or whatever is automatically human.
And note that among the other races, only dwarves have an official god, and that's only because he's the god of all dwarven stereotypes. Other deities (like Calistria) might originally be a "racial" deity, but they're not worshipped by just that race. The racial segregation didn't reach the deific levels.
The lack of a coherent theme or feel - Golarion seems like a hodge podge of mini-settings, which are great in their own right (I especially like Darkmoon Vale) but that seem to grate when pushed up against one another in a single setting. The Edwardian type clothing of the Taldane portrait figure in the Gazateer alone put me off - it seemed too modern (ditto for the Andoran uniforms).
Pretty much this. It's hard to present a cohesive world setting when you've got stone-age tech all the way up to space-age tech (Numeria). Just doesn't sit well.
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The lack of specialty priests. Golarion needs specialty priests for the gods.
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1) That elves had a big dump taken on them in the name of "We can't be like Greenwood elves, because that would be BAD!" Eradicating the green hair (despite that half the elves in the avatar database on this very site have green hair) and the elven reverie. (because sleeping is the ONLY thing one can do in a bed) Pretty much elves are just long-eared humans now.
We're crestfallen about elven hair colour now? This is about Shalelu, isn't it? Even Shalelu herself has moved on.
The reverie thing is a bit weird, but not really something that really bugs me.
And elves are just long-eared humans now? Please. They always were long-eared humans. And dwarves always were short, bearded, stocky humans. All humanoid races are just humans with funny bits. It's because they were invented by humans. Humans tend to have some trouble creating really alien races. They lack experience with them.
But as humans with funny bits go, Golarion elves aren't bad. They might not have a weird sleep alternative (though that alone doesn't make a race), they might not have green hair (though that doesn't make a race at all). They're still their own race. It manifests not just in pointy ears (and weird eyes), or their freakish height. A lot of it stems from their different life-span. That makes them take their time with many things a human rushes through. It makes them realise that "eternal love" is a sham. It means they have lots of personal experience with a lot of situations by having been through them again and again, so they often know instantly what course of action will move best (which for other races will seem reckless).
They also have a completely different idea about meddling. They usually don't. They think it's rude. You don't tell others what to do. It's their own life. The most they'll do is a sincere "if I were in your place, I'd do X". And by sincere, they really do mean it like they say it, and not the usual meaning, i.e. "You should do that, because I say so." Other races often consider them aloof because of it.
And then there's their definition of honour. They think that friends are the most important thing, and honour means you honour them. Above all else.
2) That Gnomes were given ridiculous hair colors like pink, purple, green and blue. Seriously?
Of course. All of nature's colours. Not just what humans think is natural for hair colours. They're not humans. They might be humanoid, but that is a recent development, they used to be fey.
The designers will abandon concepts that were purely created for the use in D&D games (and this IS a D&D game)
What good is a concept that is purely created for use in D&D games? I mean, by itself. What use does it have?
In this case: None at all.
Otherwise gnomes wouldn't have gotten the red-headed stepsister treatment in 3e (and ditched altogether in 4e).
or have basis in myths or faerie tales
So you want the gnomes to be three apples tall? Or as earth elementals?
and embrace a concept coined by World of Warcraft?!
I call major BS. Just because WoW did it doesn't mean it invented it. Weird hair colours have been around since forever. WoW used it, but Blizzard can hardly be credited with it.
The fact is that the weird hair colours are a perfect fit for the gnomes - which, as early fairies are actually closer to those myth and fairy tales you mentioned. They're not humans. They're not beardless dwarves. They're not short elves. They are fugitives from fairy land. They are humanoid now, but they started as fey.
Fey are wild and don't care what humans think normal. They certainly aren't beholden to human expectations, either.
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I realize these exist so you can make plot threads with them, but maybe I'm just too used to a metaplot or something. It just seems like the world is...static.
Well, if you don't like that, Golarion is not for you. There is no big meta-plot. Some of the things you complain about are the focus for one AP or other (and then you prevent it from happening).
I am/was a big fan of meta-plot, until I was cured. Now I'll try the "not enough meta-plot" option, because the "too much meta-plot" option was a complete disaster.
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What bugs me about Golarion is the same thing that bugs me about 99% of Fantasy settings out there.
I don't get the whole planet to play on. I just get one continent with way too many cultures packed in like sardines. It means I either have to place artificial limits on how far my players can explore or I have to come up with setting info myself which will likely be rendered invalid should paizo ever expand their world. Say a DM had already sent players to... the Asian area whose name is escaping me just now. With the launch of the current adventure path that's all likely to be overwritten.
So yea I want a full planet. It can be lightly detailed, infact I recognize that in order to cover everywhere it would have to be lightly detailed but at the very least I want that full skeletal structure to build on.
Torger
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lordfeint wrote:
and embrace a concept coined by World of Warcraft?!
I call major BS. Just because WoW did it doesn't mean it invented it. Weird hair colours have been around since forever. WoW used it, but Blizzard can hardly be credited with it.
The fact is that the weird hair colours are a perfect fit for the gnomes - which, as early fairies are actually closer to those myth and fairy tales you mentioned. They're not humans. They're not beardless dwarves. They're not short elves. They are fugitives from fairy land. They are humanoid now, but they started as fey.
Actually,
The idea of colored hair can more likely be traced back to Anime, like Record of Lodoss War (which is also where you can likely trace the look of Golarian Elves back to, with their long ears). And the variety of colors in anime is intended to assist in telling characters apart. A lot of anime follows certain conventions, good characters have large eyes, and that limits how you can draw the faces. Which results in large groups of similar appearing characters. This is especially true in settings such as magical girl groups, so you end up with everyone having different colored hair, and often strange colors (blue, red, green, purple) to assist with telling them apart.Anyway,
Back to the thread question. What I dislike about Golarion is how some people want to insist on limiting core RPG rules to Golarion. The two are not interlinked. The core rules support the setting, but they are not limited by the setting. If I had a dollar for every post on the boards about how 'Paizo is messing up Golarion by not stamping down on this in the core rules' I'd have enough to buy a significant stock in Paizo.
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Most of the Golarion cheese makes me happy.
But not the Red Mantis Assassin Masks.
They are so close to cool and they threw it all away for a mask that would embarrass the Monarch's henchmen.
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For me, the main issue with Golarion is how tightly packed together the nations are. There isn't enough wilderness, uncharted land, for a DM to make their own stuff. Or for players to found their own kingdom. If you try to maintain verisimilitude.
I'm not a huge fan of the pantheon either. It's not bad, there are some dieties I like. But as a whole it doesn't thrill me. Someone else mentioned the lack of racial dieties. That has bugged me as well. The world is too human focused for a fantasy based game.
Oh and I want my steampunk gnomes back.
I hate the death of Aroden.
Specifically, I hate it because he was, essentially, the God of Humanity, and in pretty much every setting, humnas never have an offical patron god. Then comes along a setting that has one, and he dies. It makes me mad everytime I think about it.
If any other god had bit it, I would be fine.
The thing is that humans basically get everything. They don't need an "official patron deity" because everything that isn't specifically defined as elven or dwarven or whatever is automatically human.
And note that among the other races, only dwarves have an official god, and that's only because he's the god of all dwarven stereotypes. Other deities (like Calistria) might originally be a "racial" deity, but they're not worshipped by just that race. The racial segregation didn't reach the deific levels.
Also Erastil is pretty close to a "human deity", sure his true form isn't that of a human but when appearing to humans he looks human.
Anyway what i don't like about Golarion is that it's too human-centric, even the greatest civilization we know was a human one (although it had aboleth overlords). Yes i miss Illefarn.
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Most of the Golarion cheese makes me happy.
But not the Red Mantis Assassin Masks.
They are so close to cool and they threw it all away for a mask that would embarrass the Monarch's henchmen.
+1. I love the Red Mantis Assassins, even so far to make a character around them, but those masks just kill they're look in my eyes.
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World spanning organisations.
This.
For me, the main issue with Golarion is how tightly packed together the nations are. There isn't enough wilderness, uncharted land, for a DM to make their own stuff.
And this.
The lack of a coherent theme or feel - Golarion seems like a hodge podge of mini-settings, which are great in their own right (I especially like Darkmoon Vale) but that seem to grate when pushed up against one another in a single setting. The Edwardian type clothing of the Taldane portrait figure in the Gazateer alone put me off - it seemed too modern for a fantasy setting (ditto for the Andoran uniforms).
And this. Specifically, I think there's too much emphasis on countries with a gimmicky, exotic and/or modern vibe, and not enough love given to the medieval Europe-style areas that D&D was built around.
While I still don't like the gnomes (their concept seems poorly thought out and executed), I'd forgotten about the Andoran uniforms. Those uniforms are probably the most terrible thing about Golarion. Really. It makes me think foreign substances were in use during that particular planning session.
What's this about elves not having their wierd alternative to sleep? I have Elves of Golarion. It says they have a wierd alternative to sleep. And they only need to do it 4 hours a night.
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You realize that you have just described Earth, right?
-Kle.
I've never been walking down the street and encountered one of these.
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Pretty much this. It's hard to present a cohesive world setting when you've got stone-age tech all the way up to space-age tech (Numeria). Just doesn't sit well.You realize that you have just described Earth, right?
-Kle.
I think modern-day Earth makes a pretty lousy D&D setting.