Hi all,
I'm probably what many might call an old "grognard" from back in the days of AD&D and Greyhawk. For many years, my favorite thing was the Forgotten Realms. Getting back into gaming now, 4E and Forgotten Realms just don't interest me anymore. I've tried 4E, but it feels restrictive to me somehow. As for the 4E Realms, the recent changes (on top of some 2E and 3E changes I didn't like to begin with) don't have any appeal for me, really.
So I guess what I'm wondering is... should I get into Pathfinder, will it appeal to an old grognard like me? Bear in mind, the only thing I know about Pathfinder is that it's an extension of 3.5E in some ways. I don't know about Golarion at all, other than "it's a fantasy setting".
I can say, I never really liked Eberron's tone. I did like MERP and Rolemaster in the old days. I loved Greyhawk and the original Forgotten Realms. Ravenloft was ok, but not my favorite. I didn't get to play much of 3.5E when it was the big thing, but it was ok.
So, what do you think? Would Pathfinder and Golarion be to my tastes? If so, what do you think I should start with, to test the waters?
I can tell you that I'm a grognard and I like it.
I urge you to be careful what you say about 4e as there are some posters who will spin themselves into an emotional breakdown if they find you criticizing it.
Sorry about that. I guess I just thought I should mention things I didn't like, thinking that it'd be helpful by comparison.
What do you like best about it, and what should I get first to test out the waters, so to speak?
I would say try it out. Perhaps you could apply campaign settings from the olden days.
Check out the online PRD to see if the rules interest you. Maybe pick up that golarion gazetteer, it's the smallest cheapest overview of the setting. Pick up a corebook and flip to the cleric section, see if the list of gods entice you.
Much like Greyhawk and Faerun, Golarion is a patchwork of different areas that support different settings, with fun webs of intrigue and influence with eachother. There's a Pathfinder Society that's sort of like Volo if he had globespanning disciples.
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I would add to the yes pile. BUT keep in mind Pathfinder is an extension of 3.5e. Where people got 'Kawl Powerz' in 3.5e, in Pathfinder you get 'Moar Kawl PowerZ' which can get a little grating on the Grognard gland. Be prepared for MORE hp's, MORE damage, MORE feats, MORE spells, MORE complicated interactions of rules... Other than that, good game. If your expecting to relive 1e days, get 1e...
S.
For the gamesystem itself, I'd say you should look at your opinions of 3.5e, first of all. If you love 3.5e, there's a pretty good chance you'll at last like Pathfinder (a few people complain about changes but mostly they're positive). If you're OK with 3.5e, weren't too committed with it, then you may feel the same way about the Pathfinder system. It is different but it's still the same basic spine underneath, with some tweaks. If you didn't like 3.5e, well, your mileage may vary. I've read people on here say they felt 3.5e was drab but they did like Pathfinder. I think that may be more an issue with the settings than the game mechanics though.
As for Golarion's Inner Sea, I was a HUGE 3e Forgotten Realms fan and I love Ravenloft too, and wasn't happy with the switch to 4e Realms, but I really like Golarion. With the adventure paths, and with the adventures themselves, they've tried to go a little bit of every direction. I'd say the feel of the setting is closer to Forgotten Realms than Eberron, but if you want to run a game with an Eberron feel, that is still possible. Golarion is a more "mature" campaign world though, with both sex and violence being normal parts of the world. While most of the setting is high fantasy with a smattering of horror, individual regions do a bit of horror-specific Ravenloft and/or Cthulu inspired themes (Ustalav, Carrion Crown Adventure Path) or science-fiction (Numeria) or gun-fighting (Alkenstar). But most of the map is still pretty mainstream fantasy sword-and-magic stuff.
If you want to get an idea of the setting, I recommend reading Winter Witch (which is fantasy adventure) or Prince of Wolves (which is more horror fantasy, and appropriately takes place in Ustalav). I might be able to recommend the other novels too but I haven't read them yet. (I have a backlog of books to read.) These two novels should give you a decent idea of the setting, I think, and if you don't like them you haven't invested in setting books yet.
Heh, okay I think the consensus is yes. I'm not exactly sure where I'd go for specific things, though.
Where would I get an "online PRD"? My search-fu on this isn't gonna be good, since I haven't followed it from the start.
I gather you're also saying that they've split up the world into various sourcebooks, like they did for areas of the Forgotten Realms. Is that right? Do they have an over-riding "Golarion campaign setting" book that I should start with? Or is it all just "area books"? Is there one main, primary area that most people start with?
PS: I don't mind 3.5E at all, I played it a little. Although not as much as 1E. What I liked about 3.5E were the skills, various character choices you could take, paragon paths, that kind of thing. It's funny, the "kewl powers" is what 4E felt like to me (but I probably shouldn't talk about 4E here, really).
I'm definitely on board with trying out PF, I just feel like a nooblet. :)
If your problem with 4e was the restrictiveness and sameness of it, you'll love pathfinder. The sheer number of character ideas you can crank out is insane.
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The Pathfinder Reference Document is here. If you're looking for a free overview of the world, check out PathfidnerWiki.
For the gamesystem itself, I'd say you should look at your opinions of 3.5e, first of all. If you love 3.5e, there's a pretty good chance you'll at last like Pathfinder (a few people complain about changes but mostly they're positive). If you're OK with 3.5e, weren't too committed with it, then you may feel the same way about the Pathfinder system. It is different but it's still the same basic spine underneath, with some tweaks. If you didn't like 3.5e, well, your mileage may vary. I've read people on here say they felt 3.5e was drab but they did like Pathfinder. I think that may be more an issue with the settings than the game mechanics though.
Truthfully, I didn't play 3.5 a long time. Maybe 5-6 adventures tops, but I liked it as far as those went. There wasn't anything I didn't like about 3.5E, if that helps.
As for Golarion's Inner Sea, I was a HUGE 3e Forgotten Realms fan and I love Ravenloft too, and wasn't happy with the switch to 4e Realms, but I really like Golarion. With the adventure paths, and with the adventures themselves, they've tried to go a little bit of every direction. I'd say the feel of the setting is closer to Forgotten Realms than Eberron, but if you want to run a game with an Eberron feel, that is still possible. Golarion is a more "mature" campaign world though, with both sex and violence being normal parts of the world. While most of the setting is high fantasy with a smattering of horror, individual regions do a bit of horror-specific Ravenloft and/or Cthulu inspired themes (Ustalav, Carrion Crown Adventure Path) or science-fiction (Numeria) or gun-fighting (Alkenstar). But most of the map is still pretty mainstream fantasy sword-and-magic stuff.
If you want to get an idea of the setting, I recommend reading Winter Witch (which is fantasy adventure) or Prince of Wolves (which is more horror fantasy, and appropriately takes place in Ustalav). I might be able to recommend the other novels too but I haven't read them yet. (I have a backlog of books to read.) These two novels should give you a decent idea of the setting, I think, and if you don't like them you haven't invested in setting books yet.
Okay, I did see Winter Witch, and I -loved- Elaine Cunningham's work in the Realms. So that's a definite plus. And I actually prefer the more mature style of gaming. For the Realms generally, I'm a big fan also, but I didn't like the "Time of Troubles" (not the idea, just the way it played out)... and I preferred to play it with more real evil and deep roleplay, kinda like Greenwood says his home Realms work. I really disliked most of the 4E changes, unfortunately, they didn't seem to help fix the problems that were introduced in parts of 2E in 3E, if that makes sense (too much focus on the Chosen, or on Cyric and Shar, etc), and then all the god-killing, yuck. But that's water over the bridge, I guess.
So it looks like I should start off with the "Inner Sea" one, and get Winter Witch for some additional flavor? And the core rulebook?
If I started with those two, and the novel for myself, would that be good enough to start rolling up characters and start playing?
The Pathfinder Reference Document is here. If you're looking for a free overview of the world, check out PathfidnerWiki.
Oh awesome, thanks!
Man, I have to say... this forum is really helpful! I appreciate it!
Also on the advice boards people are happy to help make characters and explain how feats work. If you weren't around for 3.x I'd just stick to the players guide. My head is still reeling from the Advanced players guide, ultimate magic, and ultimate combat resources...
If your problem with 4e was the restrictiveness and sameness of it, you'll love pathfinder. The sheer number of character ideas you can crank out is insane.
Actually, that -was- kinda the feel I got from 4E. It really didn't feel all that different when I changed from a mage to other classes, just different names for mostly the same thing.
Having really different character concepts that really feel different in play, that's definitely important to me.
If you post the approximate area in which you live, i'm sure that someone will be able to direct you to a Pathfinder group in your vicinity where you could get assistance in making a Pathfinder character or just sit in on a game to see what it's like ( I reside in New York City, but Pathfinder is nationwide.)
I'm in Albuquerque, NM. I think we still have a gaming store here, with sit-in stuff, although it moved a while ago. I probably should check that out and observe a session or two, as well.
I should say, though, my friends and I are in our 40s. Being kinda long in the tooth, it'd be really awkward sitting in on a group of 20-somethings, heh (and probably weird for them too).
For an example my current characters
Karsk- Dwarven druid. Rides a pony and stabs things with a lance. The druid makes healing potions, which are kept in gourds on the pony's side so the pony can eat the gourds at need. All potions are 140 proof.
Quercus Alba. Bomb crazy Hippy Elf alchemist (a new class, its... weird. You can either build it as a blasty wizard or a Jekyll and Hyde melee basher)
Blows people up, freezes them and sets them on fire. Will soon have a pair of faerie dragon wings growing out of his back that allow for limited flight per day(partially thanks to the new alchemist rules, partially due to Overdosing on faerie dragon breath). Can also buff the party with potion like spells.
Renard Chauvelin (in production) Technically a ninja. I'll be filing the serial numbers off of the ninja and making a Scarlet Pimpernel/robinhood type rogue who vanishes with a twirl of his cape.
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I gather you're also saying that they've split up the world into various sourcebooks, like they did for areas of the Forgotten Realms. Is that right? Do they have an over-riding "Golarion campaign setting" book that I should start with? Or is it all just "area books"? Is there one main, primary area that most people start with?
To answer this question, the Pathfinder campaign setting has ‘area books’ that give over-views (to various levels of detail) of vast regions of the setting, and more detailed (but generally less page-count) books for specific regions like a nation or a city.
The big, go-to book for the campaign setting is The Inner Sea World Guide, which details the two continents (and various nearby areas) where by far the vast majority of the stuff so far published for use with the Pathfinder setting (Golarion) is set (the ‘Europe’ analogue continent and the ‘Africa’ analogue continent). For most intents and purposes, this book IS the campaign setting book.
A smattering of nations, cities and regions within this area have been further detailed in their own books, and books detailing some of the areas beyond the main Inner Sea region are in the works.
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So it looks like I should start off with the "Inner Sea" one, and get Winter Witch for some additional flavor? And the core rulebook?If I started with those two, and the novel for myself, would that be good enough to start rolling up characters and start playing?
Sounds like you’d be good to go, although if you are GMing (or playing depending on what sort of character) you’d probably want the Bestiary too.
When I started playing Pathfinder no campaign setting books had been published, but when Paizo released the first Adventure Path they also issued a players guide with it that gave enough information to create a character that would fit the theme of the adventure and suit the area in which it was set. They’ve continued this tradition with each Adventure Path, releasing a PDF of the companion Players Guide.
If you will be playing an Adventure Path (or playing in a region that an adventure path has been set) you might find that these Players Guides give you enough information to create a campaign appropriate character without purchasing the World Guide.
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Having really different character concepts that really feel different in play, that's definitely important to me.
Having played 2E, 3-3.5E, 4E and Pathfinder, I gotta say Paizo does a *really* good job with this. Even within a given class, you can build characters that play completely differently with the various archetypes available to you. An Arcane Duelist bard is a very different animal than a Detective bard, a Thug rogue is completely unlike a Scout rogue, etc.
For just getting started, the Core RPG rulebook plus the Advanced Player's Guide should give you a ton of options to play with and both are available for less than $20 total in PDF form. For $30 you can get the Bestiary plus the previous two and you're pretty much ready to run a game if you want to test the waters without dropping a ton of money first. :)
Just wanted to thank everyone for their input. My "starter list" now includes the core rulebook, the "Inner Sea" supplement, and the bestiary. And "Winter Wolf" for added flavor. :)
I like the idea that PDFs are available, but I think I'll go with hard copies I can get at the gaming store. PDFs are nice with a good e-reader, but there's still something to that concrete touch of flipping through pages. And I can support my local gaming store by buying it there, plus check out whether they have some Pathfinder groups I might watch or sit in on, even just for an encounter.
Thanks again, this has been helpful! With tons of supplements to potentially buy, it's good to construct a sort of starter set first. :)
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Just wanted to thank everyone for their input. My "starter list" now includes the core rulebook, the "Inner Sea" supplement, and the bestiary. And "Winter Wolf" for added flavor. :)
I like the idea that PDFs are available, but I think I'll go with hard copies I can get at the gaming store. PDFs are nice with a good e-reader, but there's still something to that concrete touch of flipping through pages. And I can support my local gaming store by buying it there, plus check out whether they have some Pathfinder groups I might watch or sit in on, even just for an encounter.
Thanks again, this has been helpful! With tons of supplements to potentially buy, it's good to construct a sort of starter set first. :)
Welcome Laeknir.
As someone who has gone all PDF, I have to admit I had to get a hard copy of the Inner sea guide. Its an absolute beauty and a great read. Check that out ASAP.
Laeknir,
The creative groups behind Pathfinder ( and Paizo) are great at knowing their market. Lots of nice newness, and yet for us older players maintaining a connection to the roots of the game. I had grown jaded with RPG's over the years and was prolly gonna give 'em all up for good but after giving Pathfinder ( and the Golarion world) a chance, it was like my first experiences playing AD&D and touring Homlet. Not so much the content, but the feeling of dreams being realized and the imagination given voice.
Greg
Hello and Welcome.
There isn't much to be said now, but the Core Book and Bestiary is all you need to play (and you can easily do without the Bestiary if you just print the stat blocks you'll need for the adventure you've planned and don't need the fluff, but pictures are pictures, especially when they are as pretty as those in the books). You should also note that there is an NPC gallery, that can solve your need for statblocks of Guardsmen, nobles and other such personas.
For setting Inner Sea World Guide is the analogue of the other core setting books for Forgotten Realms and other settings. Inner Sea Primer might be what you need if you are looking just for basic info (this book is meant for players, but I have yet to see it in detail, although I recommend the guide. It's worth it IMHO). Like it was already written - most player guides are free and contain basic information about the region, so you can have a look inside. Bonus bestiary PDF is also free, so you can have a look at what does the bestiary look like and get some monsters not published in the bestiary as a bonus.
For other things you can pick relatively cheap booklets or PDFs concerning whatever topic catches your interest. I enjoyed them so far because of flavour, but haven't experimented much with the crunchy parts yet.
If you liked the feel of Faerun, but not Eberron, you may like regions like Taldor, Varisia, Land of the Linnorm Kings, Molthune, Andoran, Mendev, Lastwall, Cheliax, Five Kings Mountains, Kyonin and perhaps Ustalav (just brainstorming, this is not an exhaustive list of those that strike me as having "the feeling").
Heh, okay I think the consensus is yes. I'm not exactly sure where I'd go for specific things, though.
Where would I get an "online PRD"? My search-fu on this isn't gonna be good, since I haven't followed it from the start.
I gather you're also saying that they've split up the world into various sourcebooks, like they did for areas of the Forgotten Realms. Is that right? Do they have an over-riding "Golarion campaign setting" book that I should start with? Or is it all just "area books"? Is there one main, primary area that most people start with?
The PRD link and pathfinder wiki links have already been given so the only link i have to give is this and this (for lighter and more player friendly reading)
LOL - excellent place to come to find unbiased opinions on Pathfinder!
Obviously, we are all big Pathfinder fans here, so I think you are going to find an easy consensus.
I can say personally, I started with Basic D&D 30 years ago, and Pathfinder is the best system I've played in that time.
If you liked 3E/3.5E - Pathfinder is the same feel, but improved and cleaned up.
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If you want to check the rules in a really (IMHO) user-friendly format, you should check d20pfsrd.
To be honest, the "really different character concepts" is something you can totally do with roleplay, but for which you'll need at least to check the Advanced Players Guide if you want to really feel the difference while playing.
I notably speak about archetypes, which are templates you apply to your class that replace class abilities for more thematic others (like a bard giving up some lore knowledge or the ability to manipulate ennemies, for feats making them more efficient against spellcasters and powers to enhance their weapons). You can apply several archetypes at the same time if they don't replace the same class abilities, which allows you to do something like an Invulnerable Urban barbarian, or even a Qinggong Drunken monk of the Mountain's Lotus. In terms of game mechanics, the number of available archetypes pretty much covers any concept you or your players would like to play, without ever making them overpowered.
I hope you'll have fun in Pathfinder ! :)
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Just so you know, the Inner Sea Primer is a 32 page introduction to the setting designed for those new to Golarion.
Also, I do advise going hardcopy for the core book and Inner Sea World Guide, adding the PDFs on top if you want them. I found the core book PDF rendered too slowly to be useful as a reference at the game table (despite its great hyperlinking and bookmarks). I also just got the PDF of the Inner Sea World Guide and it is slow to scroll between pages even on my full laptop (never mind my Eee PC).
Just so you know, the Inner Sea Primer is a 32 page introduction to the setting designed for those new to Golarion.
Also, I do advise going hardcopy for the core book and Inner Sea World Guide, adding the PDFs on top if you want them. I found the core book PDF rendered too slowly to be useful as a reference at the game table (despite its great hyperlinking and bookmarks). I also just got the PDF of the Inner Sea World Guide and it is slow to scroll between pages even on my full laptop (never mind my Eee PC).
Depends on the CPU and RAM, on my i7 CPU and 4GB RAM laptop both work excellently and the search function is quick as a cat but i have seen both of them in older computers and the experience wasn't very good. Also don't think of putting the core into a netbook (at least the netbooks with reasonable prices) the render is very slow.
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of which is made of awful (APG), one of which is spotty but interesting (UC), and one of which is a salad of disparate parts of wildly varying quality (UM).
Dear Sir,
You seem not to have received our supplements to the Pathfinder RPG core rulebook. A shipment mistake indicates that you were sent the first three tomes of Twilight instead of the Awesome APG, the Mildly Awesome UM, and the Omgthisisawesomebutnotallofitatall UC.
Please contact our customer service for a quick replacement.
With our deepest apologies,
RPG&Co.
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Yes, so I think your original message should have contained at least one "IMHO", since you are saying these books are bad because you don't like their content - and this is not everyone's case, or these books wouldn't have sold from the beginning. Unlike WotC, these books don't sell for the power creep value, since it is pretty much a given that the only power boosts were given to the classes needing them badly, like the poor core monk, or the suboptimal concepts like a damage-dealer wizard.
I respect your opinion, but I think that putting it as a fact in front of someone that doesn't know the game yet and could probably get a lot of fun from these additional rules isn't helping.
If your problem with 4e was the restrictiveness and sameness of it, you'll love pathfinder. The sheer number of character ideas you can crank out is insane.Actually, that -was- kinda the feel I got from 4E. It really didn't feel all that different when I changed from a mage to other classes, just different names for mostly the same thing.
You definitely won't think that with Pathfinder. Sometimes, two pathfinder classes can be vastly different - and feel different - even when both are from the same class (and with archetypes, those possible differences only get bigger, not to mention with completely different classes).
It also means that you can realise character concepts in many different ways. For example, I could easily list a dozen different ways of playing an archer.
As for the game system in general, there are naturally a few parts that could have been done better, but the perfect game system doesn't exist - mainly because it's all a matter of opinion. Sure, there are parts in books, especially supplements like Ultimate Magic, that I don't care about, but the good material vastly outnumbers the bad.
As for the Pathfinder Campaign Setting: The slogan for the setting is "The best of all possible worlds", as in "Best of both worlds" but with all worlds. It's basically a kitchen sink. You can basically play all kinds of campaigns in there. Old-fashioned dungeon crawls? Check! Urban intrigue? Check! Wilderness exploration, horror, super-science, weird west, Arabian Nights, oriental adventures, fighting infernal tyrannies? Check check check and so on.
And includes "non-standard" stuff like super science with a nation where an alien spaceship crashed and the local rulers dig through it for superior metal alloys and artefacts they don't understand but use anyway, but those are easily ignored if you don't like them.
And unlike the Forgotten Realms, Paizo intents to never introduce world-shattering events into the running campaign. There were great, world-changing events, but they're in the past. If anyone wants to introduce events that change the face of the world, they'll have to introduce them themselves.
There are a lot of "impending dooms" for just that purpose if you do want to shake things up, and the Adventure Paths sometimes threaten with big events (but the party is supposed to prevent them, and anyway, the setting material itself will assume that the APs haven't happened yet.)
If someone is making an evaluation, then it's safe to assume that it's that person's opinion unless explicitly stated otherwise.
Still, the IMHO qualification is less likely to be seen as a declarative-statement-of-truth/flame-bate, and is at least put in the proper context of "opinion" vs "fact".
I know, from experience, that you are very particular and exacting of game balance issues. But new forum posters? Not so much.
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Depends on the CPU and RAM, on my i7 CPU and 4GB RAM laptop both work excellently
True, but not everyone has such a specced machine, even my work laptop only has 2GB RAM.
Also don't think of putting the core into a netbook (at least the netbooks with reasonable prices) the render is very slow.
Yep, unfortunately I bought a netbook specifically to access game PDFs when I am gaming away from home, so Paizo PDFs become very hard to use if not impossible.
I really wish Paizo took a note from WotC's 4e PDFs (when they were available), my PHB, DMG and MM all render quickly even on my Eee PC and also have the benefit of being easy on the print toner being black text on white apart froom artwork.
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To the OP; it is worth a try. I also am an old Grognard and I love Pathfinder. I was (AM) a huge fan of the original Realms, and even could stomach 2e realms. The 3.+ and 4e atrocities drove me from the genre until Pathfinder came along.
This is meant primarily as a counter point to most replies you have received except for A Man in Black who has stated my views almost exactly. First, I hated 3.0 D&D! I tried again with 3.5 and ...meh. 4e I bought the player handbook on release day, then cringed as I read it.
Pathfinder has a flow and feel to it that is comforting to an old (some say antiquated) player/DM like myself.
Breakdown of my own personal views (the requested IMHO)
Pathfinder Core - Must have.
Advanced Players Guide - I enjoy it and use it.
Beastiary - A must have for me, but I won't buy more. I have plenty of monsters manual and they are easy enough to convert.
Ultimate Magic - Hated it. It almost made me quit Pathfinder
Ultimate Combat - The biggest waste of print I ever saw and truly the first rule book I have ever truly regretted buying. I do not subscribe to the common feelings on this board that feats and options should continuously be added upon. I saw the glut building in 3.0 and it got so bad everyone abandoned the system. It is happening again in Pathfinder, which it has to. Paizo is a business.
Anyways, try the Core rules. If you do not mind a myriad of feats, classes, sub-classes, etc which all can simply be roleplayed and rules adjusted as you go from just the Core then try more, but do yourself a favor and try Pathfinder. I think you may like it.
As far as Golarion. You do not need to invest in a 'setting' to use the rules-set. I like some parts and dislike more, but what I like I love. To each his own.
As far as Golarion. You do not need to invest in a 'setting' to use the rules-set. I like some parts and dislike more, but what I like I love. To each his own.
That is one of the benefits of golarian. It is intentionally modular. If you dont like horror in your fantasy, cut out ustalav. Dont like firearms? Axe Alkenstar. It is relatively easy to find a portion of the world for the kind of game you want to run, and build off of that for your game.
It may be worth your while to look at some of the OSR (Old School Renaissance) games and products out there, such as Labyrinth Lord, Lamentations of the Flame Princess, or Dungeon Crawl Classics. I think a free PDF of the beta version of DCC is available online somewhere. Those games will be more true to the game the way it was in the 1970's.
Other than that, I second the advice to use the online rules for Pathfinder to try the game on for size. I love Pathfinder, and it's the system I'm using to run two games at my table, but I sometimes miss how easy it was to generate NPCs in the old days.
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Hi all,
I'm probably what many might call an old "grognard" from back in the days of AD&D and Greyhawk. For many years, my favorite thing was the Forgotten Realms. Getting back into gaming now, 4E and Forgotten Realms just don't interest me anymore. I've tried 4E, but it feels restrictive to me somehow. As for the 4E Realms, the recent changes (on top of some 2E and 3E changes I didn't like to begin with) don't have any appeal for me, really.
So I guess what I'm wondering is... should I get into Pathfinder, will it appeal to an old grognard like me? Bear in mind, the only thing I know about Pathfinder is that it's an extension of 3.5E in some ways. I don't know about Golarion at all, other than "it's a fantasy setting".
I can say, I never really liked Eberron's tone. I did like MERP and Rolemaster in the old days. I loved Greyhawk and the original Forgotten Realms. Ravenloft was ok, but not my favorite. I didn't get to play much of 3.5E when it was the big thing, but it was ok.
So, what do you think? Would Pathfinder and Golarion be to my tastes? If so, what do you think I should start with, to test the waters?
Yes! Test the waters with something like Hollow's Last Hope. Its a nice Dora formula quest that leaves the players (and the GM) feeling like they've played Classic D&D. The surrounding lands, as well as the NPCs are rich with story detail, and ancient gods, dwarves, and ruins are all involved. This can be used in your own world, and doesn't necessarily need to follow Golarion canon. If you like Greyhawk, use it. I set this short module adventure within my own world and from it sparked seeds of other campaign ideas.
Also, with just the core rulebook and a bestiary, you'll see some of the most compelling and inspirational look and feel to be produced in years. Grognards are often seen as reserved, selective, and somewhat closed off to new things, yet instead they should be warmly embraced by the current gaming community and treasured for their vast knowledge of the game. I posit that the best creators of Pathfinder RPG might themselves be considered "grognards" because they understand what the game is all about, they value the classic game and even dedicate it fully to Gary and Dave on the credits page inside the CORE RULEBOOK.
Try it out. If you have questions, this community will help. The rules are best learned not all at once, but in stages. Find a friend or a gaming group who's familiar enough with 3.5 to help you through. The ruleset is backward compatible with that system, and can be quickly learned. If you prefer, pick up the beginner box in October and start there.
I didn't learn 3.0/3.5 overnight, but over time, and with practice it becomes very easy. Similarly, you can still run the same classic games you like from old school fantasy within Pathfinder RPG. Whether its a module from first edition AD&D, or even 2nd, its easily recreated.
Golarion is a great world, but even the creators of it would encourage you to do what you like, creating your own world, or using another one you perfer. The game is still very much about having fun - Pathfinder RPG just happens to be the best version of the world's oldest roleplaying game ever made. It has room for grognards and all other gamer types. Play as you like. The rules are very sophisticated but not unusually difficult. There are many rules, but depending on your playstyle, you won't feel overwhelmed.
Specifics:
The rules use hp which you already know. AC=higher is better. No Thaco. Attacks still use d20 for melee and ranged. Just like old school where we subtracted armor from AC if the person wasn't wearing it, we use Touch AC score for a few reasons. When you can't use your dexterity, you have Flat Footed AC.
Movement is simple, and imagined on 5' squares. Time is measured in 6-second amounts, just like "segments" used to be. On your turn you have enough time to:
>Attack and move, or
>Move and move more, or
>Attack a bunch of times if you can, and also take a 5 foot movement.
Your movement score, just like old school has a number in feet. 20 means 20 feet, 30 means 30 feet. in the old game fighters got an extra attack at 6th level. Same here pretty much with classes advancing and getting more attacks.
Example
Grognax the Bold stands his ground and attacks the Ettin. Grognax rolls twice for his two attacks (because he didn't also move) d20+STR+Base To-hit score... same as old school. Having slayn the ettin, next round Grognax moves 30 feet to reach the next monster, a fat ogre named Pox. Grognax moves 30 feet, and makes only 1 attack this time (because he used time for movement).
Ability scores are the same... but the modifier bonus changed. In OD&D you had +1, +2, +3.... now an 18 grants +4 etc. So slightly different modifiers.
The Pathfinder RPG game uses CMB (combat maneuver bonus) and CMD (combat maneuver defense) for all that other stuff we used to handwave. Its the stuff of pummeling, grappling, overbearing, bull rush, feint, etc. It does this simply by asking you to roll 1d20 + your CMB to beat the opponents CMD. Basic offense vs. defense stuff.
Lastly, the minutea is all covered on the character sheet, as to what is included in the CMD and CMB scores.
The biggest deal is that "higher scores=better scores" was the premise of 3.0/3.5 (Monte's version), and that awesome uniformity continues with Pathfinder RPG.
Some features a grognard will be familiar with is SR=spell resistance. Over come an enemies SR by rolling a caster check 1d20 plus caster's level.
Skills are used with simple math. Each level you get points for skills. Use your skills by rolling 1d20 + your skill total. While attacks are against opponent's AC, most other things like skills over come a DC. DC=Difficulty Class. This is just a big word for how difficult the challenge is. The GM decides this based on a bunch of different factors, most are actually listed as flat numbers in the Pathfinder RPG ruleset.
Socially speaking, if you missed 3.0/3.5 you shouldn't worry. The game you love is still alive in Pathfinder RPG. The richness of npcs characters, worldsetting, even the style of the iconic characters represented in the core rulebook are lavishly appointed. The game should appeal to you if you make just a few paradigm shifts: 1) From Turns lasting 10 minutes and rounds lasting a minute TO 6-second combat rounds. 2) Complexity of options is a good thing - you get to see a character concept realized where anything you can imagine CAN be quantified in the ruleset (if desired to be quantified). This is like Eddie Van Halen saying, "anything i can think, I can play" and 3) combat is visualized on the battlemat (whether this mat is actually used, or whether its in the GM's head). This allows you to use special powers called FEATS within a reasonable timeframe and space.
Hope that helps. Sorry if you already know this stuff. I should have read through the thread, but felt inspired to give you a few words coming from someone who's made the leap from grognard to "esteemed/venerable" Pathfinder RPG gamemaster. lol
Hope you enjoy it.
Pax
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I want to +1 the Adventure Paths. If you're like me, 40 years old trying to balance a job, and kids, and other social obligations, it just doesn't leave enough time to be hacking out your own adventures. The APs seem to have something for everyone, people who like roleplay, people who like combat, people who like cool and in-depth story lines. I love the fact I can pick up an AP and run it with minimal prep time. They are a life saver.
Yes.
Still, the IMHO qualification is less likely to be seen as a declarative-statement-of-truth/flame-bate, and is at least put in the proper context of "opinion" vs "fact".
I prefer IMO. Actually, I prefer "in my opinion".
The "humble" in "in my humble opinion" never sounds like the person saying it considers his/her opinion at all humble.
Hi all,
I'm probably what many might call an old "grognard" from back in the days of AD&D and Greyhawk. For many years, my favorite thing was the Forgotten Realms. Getting back into gaming now, 4E and Forgotten Realms just don't interest me anymore. I've tried 4E, but it feels restrictive to me somehow. As for the 4E Realms, the recent changes (on top of some 2E and 3E changes I didn't like to begin with) don't have any appeal for me, really.
So I guess what I'm wondering is... should I get into Pathfinder, will it appeal to an old grognard like me? Bear in mind, the only thing I know about Pathfinder is that it's an extension of 3.5E in some ways. I don't know about Golarion at all, other than "it's a fantasy setting".
I can say, I never really liked Eberron's tone. I did like MERP and Rolemaster in the old days. I loved Greyhawk and the original Forgotten Realms. Ravenloft was ok, but not my favorite. I didn't get to play much of 3.5E when it was the big thing, but it was ok.
So, what do you think? Would Pathfinder and Golarion be to my tastes? If so, what do you think I should start with, to test the waters?
I have played Dungeons and Dragons from the time when the dice had to have the numbers filled in with those crayons included in the set, through it's incarnations over the years. I've also played Top Secret, Star Wars, Villains & Vigilantes, GURPS, Battletech, and some others. I find the Pathfinder system has fixed some problems I have found in various Dungeons and Dragons versions, but has a few of it's own. All systems can't please everybody. Give it a shot. All in all, it's a good game. It's quite magic friendly, if that's your pleasure. It also gives other classes a strong base from which to build.