Silver Dragon

Laeknir's page

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Of course, it's all unicorns and rainbows now. Can they deliver? That's the real question.

Just wanted to thank everyone for their input. My "starter list" now includes the core rulebook, the "Inner Sea" supplement, and the bestiary. And "Winter Wolf" for added flavor. :)

I like the idea that PDFs are available, but I think I'll go with hard copies I can get at the gaming store. PDFs are nice with a good e-reader, but there's still something to that concrete touch of flipping through pages. And I can support my local gaming store by buying it there, plus check out whether they have some Pathfinder groups I might watch or sit in on, even just for an encounter.

Thanks again, this has been helpful! With tons of supplements to potentially buy, it's good to construct a sort of starter set first. :)

Martin Kauffman 530 wrote:
If you post the approximate area in which you live, i'm sure that someone will be able to direct you to a Pathfinder group in your vicinity where you could get assistance in making a Pathfinder character or just sit in on a game to see what it's like ( I reside in New York City, but Pathfinder is nationwide.)

I'm in Albuquerque, NM. I think we still have a gaming store here, with sit-in stuff, although it moved a while ago. I probably should check that out and observe a session or two, as well.

I should say, though, my friends and I are in our 40s. Being kinda long in the tooth, it'd be really awkward sitting in on a group of 20-somethings, heh (and probably weird for them too).

BigNorseWolf wrote:
If your problem with 4e was the restrictiveness and sameness of it, you'll love pathfinder. The sheer number of character ideas you can crank out is insane.

Actually, that -was- kinda the feel I got from 4E. It really didn't feel all that different when I changed from a mage to other classes, just different names for mostly the same thing.

Having really different character concepts that really feel different in play, that's definitely important to me.

Liz Courts wrote:
The Pathfinder Reference Document is here. If you're looking for a free overview of the world, check out PathfidnerWiki.

Oh awesome, thanks!

Man, I have to say... this forum is really helpful! I appreciate it!

Wolf Munroe wrote:
For the gamesystem itself, I'd say you should look at your opinions of 3.5e, first of all. If you love 3.5e, there's a pretty good chance you'll at last like Pathfinder (a few people complain about changes but mostly they're positive). If you're OK with 3.5e, weren't too committed with it, then you may feel the same way about the Pathfinder system. It is different but it's still the same basic spine underneath, with some tweaks. If you didn't like 3.5e, well, your mileage may vary. I've read people on here say they felt 3.5e was drab but they did like Pathfinder. I think that may be more an issue with the settings than the game mechanics though.

Truthfully, I didn't play 3.5 a long time. Maybe 5-6 adventures tops, but I liked it as far as those went. There wasn't anything I didn't like about 3.5E, if that helps.


As for Golarion's Inner Sea, I was a HUGE 3e Forgotten Realms fan and I love Ravenloft too, and wasn't happy with the switch to 4e Realms, but I really like Golarion. With the adventure paths, and with the adventures themselves, they've tried to go a little bit of every direction. I'd say the feel of the setting is closer to Forgotten Realms than Eberron, but if you want to run a game with an Eberron feel, that is still possible. Golarion is a more "mature" campaign world though, with both sex and violence being normal parts of the world. While most of the setting is high fantasy with a smattering of horror, individual regions do a bit of horror-specific Ravenloft and/or Cthulu inspired themes (Ustalav, Carrion Crown Adventure Path) or science-fiction (Numeria) or gun-fighting (Alkenstar). But most of the map is still pretty mainstream fantasy sword-and-magic stuff.

If you want to get an idea of the setting, I recommend reading Winter Witch (which is fantasy adventure) or Prince of Wolves (which is more horror fantasy, and appropriately takes place in Ustalav). I might be able to recommend the other novels too but I haven't read them yet. (I have a backlog of books to read.) These two novels should give you a decent idea of the setting, I think, and if you don't like them you haven't invested in setting books yet.

Okay, I did see Winter Witch, and I -loved- Elaine Cunningham's work in the Realms. So that's a definite plus. And I actually prefer the more mature style of gaming. For the Realms generally, I'm a big fan also, but I didn't like the "Time of Troubles" (not the idea, just the way it played out)... and I preferred to play it with more real evil and deep roleplay, kinda like Greenwood says his home Realms work. I really disliked most of the 4E changes, unfortunately, they didn't seem to help fix the problems that were introduced in parts of 2E in 3E, if that makes sense (too much focus on the Chosen, or on Cyric and Shar, etc), and then all the god-killing, yuck. But that's water over the bridge, I guess.

So it looks like I should start off with the "Inner Sea" one, and get Winter Witch for some additional flavor? And the core rulebook?

If I started with those two, and the novel for myself, would that be good enough to start rolling up characters and start playing?

Heh, okay I think the consensus is yes. I'm not exactly sure where I'd go for specific things, though.

Where would I get an "online PRD"? My search-fu on this isn't gonna be good, since I haven't followed it from the start.

I gather you're also saying that they've split up the world into various sourcebooks, like they did for areas of the Forgotten Realms. Is that right? Do they have an over-riding "Golarion campaign setting" book that I should start with? Or is it all just "area books"? Is there one main, primary area that most people start with?

PS: I don't mind 3.5E at all, I played it a little. Although not as much as 1E. What I liked about 3.5E were the skills, various character choices you could take, paragon paths, that kind of thing. It's funny, the "kewl powers" is what 4E felt like to me (but I probably shouldn't talk about 4E here, really).

I'm definitely on board with trying out PF, I just feel like a nooblet. :)

LilithsThrall wrote:

I can tell you that I'm a grognard and I like it.

I urge you to be careful what you say about 4e as there are some posters who will spin themselves into an emotional breakdown if they find you criticizing it.

Sorry about that. I guess I just thought I should mention things I didn't like, thinking that it'd be helpful by comparison.

What do you like best about it, and what should I get first to test out the waters, so to speak?

Hi all,

I'm probably what many might call an old "grognard" from back in the days of AD&D and Greyhawk. For many years, my favorite thing was the Forgotten Realms. Getting back into gaming now, 4E and Forgotten Realms just don't interest me anymore. I've tried 4E, but it feels restrictive to me somehow. As for the 4E Realms, the recent changes (on top of some 2E and 3E changes I didn't like to begin with) don't have any appeal for me, really.

So I guess what I'm wondering is... should I get into Pathfinder, will it appeal to an old grognard like me? Bear in mind, the only thing I know about Pathfinder is that it's an extension of 3.5E in some ways. I don't know about Golarion at all, other than "it's a fantasy setting".

I can say, I never really liked Eberron's tone. I did like MERP and Rolemaster in the old days. I loved Greyhawk and the original Forgotten Realms. Ravenloft was ok, but not my favorite. I didn't get to play much of 3.5E when it was the big thing, but it was ok.

So, what do you think? Would Pathfinder and Golarion be to my tastes? If so, what do you think I should start with, to test the waters?

Looks like they're starting up a comics-style crossover event that will be dotted through the "new D&D home world" (not Greyhawk but the one in core 4E rules), Forgotten Realms, Dark Sun, and Eberron.

It's the Abyssal Plague world-spanning event!

With some more tidbits here:

Thoughts, opinions? Is it the RSE that will destroy the Realms once and for all (since FR novels are still canon?), or a simple marketing ploy to get people to purchase products from different settings, or just something fun that will be a good thing?

Cunningham - this is a definite must buy for me!

Awesome, can't wait!

DaveMage wrote:

I have seen many, many posters who were excited about 4E - and played it - that soon after lost their interest.

I managed to get into a 4e group when it was first on the store shelves. One of the "try it out" gaming sessions that my local game shop hosts, that is. I went into it sort of neutral, thought it was relatively fun while playing (although very different), but since then I haven't been all that interested in either buying 4e or trying to get a 4e group together. There was just something about it that didn't reel me in, and I've been really turned sour on what they've done to the Forgotten Realms, so it's very unlikely that I'll get any 4e products.

Marc Radle 81 wrote:
... trying to have an open mind and I DEFINITELY DON'T want to get involved with the whole editions war, which I find to be very counter productive and devisive. ...

Good luck with this endeavor. Seems a bit like dressing in a suit made of roast beef and trying to interview hungry wolves in their den, but you never know - maybe some good discussion will come of it.

Greg Volz wrote:

Charlie and the Candy Mountain is a better video than this:)

The magical liopleurodon knows the way! YAAAAY!!! ROFLOL!

Kruelaid wrote:
You wanna touch my monkey?

Touch his monkey! TOUCH IT!

Excellent idea!

veector wrote:

Bugleyman, if you're serious, may I suggest donating it to our men and women in the armed forces overseas. I'm sure they would love to have new roleplaying material to take their minds off things.

USO Care Package Program

Whatever, angry WotC apologist. Haha!

Scott Betts wrote:
Laeknir wrote:

Eh, WotC is just hurting itself. It's childish and extremely unprofessional... but let's flip it around and look at the other side (which is, perhaps, even funnier):

Kobold sycophants (fanbois of 4E) who are led by a "high sycophant" (my take: their PR department).

Their "Dragon" which now only puts out crap now (sort of literal imnsho).

The idea that they view any/all comments of a negative nature as nothing but "troll"ing... (when earlier they made such a big deal of modifying the rules and even the Realms "to better address complaints and problems"). Yeah, right.

The appeal of cartoons and scatological humor - they're pandering toward the "low brows", essentially (again: kobolds). And that's what they'll get.

Even funnier when you look at it that way. They're shooting themselves in the feet and then turning themselves into a cartoon.

Given that their parody portrayal of themselves in that fashion was done purposefully, your criticisms end up looking pretty hollow.

You basically saw the video, garnered some deep insight into comparisons between it and the actual WotC, decided that your insight was somehow exceptional, and now you get to discover that what you thought was a truly scathing metaphorical turn-around was actually intentionally tongue-in-cheek. Nice. Keep that trash talk up.

Eh, WotC is just hurting itself. It's childish and extremely unprofessional... but let's flip it around and look at the other side (which is, perhaps, even funnier):

Kobold sycophants (fanbois of 4E) who are led by a "high sycophant" (my take: their PR department).

Their "Dragon" which now only puts out crap now (sort of literal imnsho).

The idea that they view any/all comments of a negative nature as nothing but "troll"ing... (when earlier they made such a big deal of modifying the rules and even the Realms "to better address complaints and problems"). Yeah, right.

The appeal of cartoons and scatological humor - they're pandering toward the "low brows", essentially (again: kobolds). And that's what they'll get.

Even funnier when you look at it that way. They're shooting themselves in the feet and then turning themselves into a cartoon.

Because of the ridiculous changes to the Realms, I have sworn off buying all future products from WotC. They've completely destroyed something I loved, and they've insulted longstanding supportive fans in the process. So IMNSHO they can live without my financial support.

No more FR materials.
No more game materials.
No WotC internet or computer game materials.
No more novels.

Jeremy Mac Donald wrote:
I know two of the six players a little outside of the game. For the other four I will literally be shaking their hand at the start of the session and start by saying something along the lines of "Hi, my names Jeremy, I'll be your DM for the evening and I'm going to introduce you to fantasy gaming and the world of Dungeons and Dragons,'

That sounds fun. =)

Personally, I'd make pregenerated characters - but then allow them to make cosmetic changes (male vs. female, weapon choices, thinking up brief backgrounds, that kind of thing... and if they change race or something on that order, quickly show them how stats would change). That would give them the benefit of a pregen and save time, but also give them the feel of some character creation. If there's time. =)

crosswiredmind wrote:
Why can't we just have a discussion that does not degenerate into the hurling of personal attacks?

Because you created an entire thread designed to encourage people to choose your "side" or someone else's? You sow it, you reap. Drama clings to people who generate it.

It doesn't matter who "starts" drama, because someone always will. Learn to defuse it and move on without generating more, because otherwise it will continue to be cyclical and expansive.

Just my $0.02, take it for what it's worth.

Antioch wrote:
See, I was thinking of literal farmers and not of an "everyday" man. I never read Belgeriad, Eragon, Wheel of Time, Harry Potter, or Wizard of Earthsea. Likewise, I never played Baldur's Gate.

Really? In that case, I recommend them all very highly! Several fun new worlds of adventures to explore and enjoy! =)

Antioch wrote:

I dont recall reading any fantasy media where it starts out with a lowly farmboy becoming a great hero. This is not a snipe, or sarcasm: I really CANT.

Classic trope, doesn't "exactly" have to be a farmboy, but sometimes.


Frodo of Lord of the Rings
Luke Skywalker of Star Wars
Harry Potter
Garion of the Belgeriad
Main character of Baldur's Gate computer game
Rand in Wheel of Time
Ged of Wizard of Earthsea

Haha! Vance & Red Death beat me... but I have more! =P

Russ Taylor wrote:
I can't wait to be paying $15 a month for WotC internet services!

Lol! Stop that! ;)

vance wrote:
Russ Taylor wrote:
Please provide this proof, then? :)

I WOULD if Gleemax hadn't wiped their entire database today. Hopefully I can find it again when it's back up.

Is that what happened? It's been down all day (or at least, I haven't been able to get in).

vance wrote:

Old internet trick. I should know better by now.

Just human nature. Best thing to do with escalation of drama is always to look at it, shake one's head and say "not for me, thanks, not today."


Drama tends to follow people who start it. Starting a brand new thread to complain about drama in another thread is just enhancing the drama.

Feel better soon, James!

Welcome Sean! Rock on with the goodness!

WotC's Nightmare wrote:
You want me to feel sorry for Richard Baker? Sorry. That's not going to happen. He has shown absolutely no remorse for being the chief achitect of the destruction of the Realms. I know he's not the only one to bring the spellplague about, but he was very antagonistic to the fans that expressed their displeasure for what they are doing to the Realms. The arrogance he has shown is very unprofessional and fills me wiht disgust.

Technically, I think Chris Perkins is responsible for the team that made all of these changes, and Rich Baker was only one of the major players. That doesn't absolve him of responsibility, but it does shift it.

18DELTA wrote:

-Yeah as someone who loves the Realms. I could really care less about the 4Gotten Realms. I am watching what is going on with a morbid curiosity. Its like rubber necking a car wreck on the highway.

True that... a really long, drawn out car wreck that takes place over weeks rather than seconds. And poor Rich Baker is getting the brunt of the fans' displeasure.

Steerpike7 wrote:
Laeknir wrote:
Still, I have no doubt that the Warcrafty spin they've put on FR will encourage people to buy it - even if they have no plans to use it. It's a shame, but they'll likely be rewarded for pissing off their customer base for FR.
Did they Wowify it? That rules me out of buying any FR products then. I don't know much about the changes except vaguely that spellplague basically resets the setting and that the loyal customers of FR have a right to be upset about WotC destroying something they've put years of time and money into.

Yes, they certainly did WoW-ify it, although much of the Wow-ness relates to 4E and not just the Realms setting. That said, 4E FR will have floating island chunks in various regions (far more than the floating inverted mountains used by Netheril). One area has had its mountains replaced with glass mountains (so say reports). One entire region has supposedly been entirely replaced with new terrain and all new inhabitants (dragon-born, or walking dragon-men), with the old nation transposed to another planet (and apparently gone forever). Some nations have been blown up (Halruaa), and others untouched, by a tremendous armageddon-level event where the goddess of magic was killed (and her energies exploded all throughout the planes, re-ordering and destroying many things); and there will be no god or goddess of magic in the new era. Those kinds of things. Oh, and they advanced the timeline 100 years so to make sure everyone's PC characters (and pesky NPCs, since there were too many "named" NPCs to keep track of) are all dead now - and there will be no rules to play through that 100-year time period, but there will be handy time portals if you absolutely *must* translate your PC into the new statting system.

More generally, magic has been re-done generally in 4E, such that one has "encounter" powers, "daily" powers, and "any time you want" powers (true of all characters, not just magic). Mages lost a lot of their versatility and have become "controllers" where certain powers are expected to be used in fights (like, "use your area-of-effect power NOW"), but other drastic changes to other classes have re-defined their roles also. Fights have been re-ordered into WoW-like "boss" fights (who may or may not have lots of minions, like dozens of skeletons)... but have no fear, "controller" role characters can use their AoE powers on such minions (assuming they're rounded up appropriately) and destroyed instantly - because minions have 1 hp. And magic items are all pretty much level-dependent or you can't use them.

Have I left anything out? Probably... It's all very, very different.

Steerpike7 wrote:

You may well be right about this. Up front disclosure: I can't stand FR. I think it's a complete mess. When I heard about the spellplague and the fact they're basically blown up the setting, I thought I might give it a look.

That said, I think WotC has done an extreme disservice to fans of the FR setting. Even though I wasn't one of them, I don't think this is a cool way to treat your customers. So I'm torn on even looking into it because I don't want to support this type of behavior by the company, even though I'd probably like FR a lot better now.

I think you're absolutely correct, WotC did an extreme disservice to the fans of the FR setting. It was a horrible way to treat their customers, many of whom (like me) have followed the setting and purchased nearly everything FR for over 20 years. Still, I have no doubt that the Warcrafty spin they've put on FR will encourage people to buy it - even if they have no plans to use it. It's a shame, but they'll likely be rewarded for pissing off their customer base for FR.

But wasn't the entire point of the podcast to act as an advertisement of the super cool extra fun that 4E is supposed to be, though? If not, if it wasn't meant to be exciting and draw more people in to 4E, why bother posting it?

I've tried 4E at lower levels and it was faster and generally about as much fun as earlier versions. Showing a slow, drawn out combat just seems bizarre to me as an advertisement choice.

Besides that, the "hey, they're playing lvl 17" doesn't seem to wash for me as an argument. Regardless of the level, it didn't really look like they were having a whole lot of fun. Certainly nothing was there to show how much -more- fun it was supposed to be as compared with earlier versions.

Jeremy Mac Donald wrote:

I'm not exactly sure what was expected. These guys, with the possible exception of Dave Noonan, are not 'professional' role players. If you wanted to see stunning in character portrayals Wizards would have had to have hired actors or something, not round up a bunch of volunteers from brand management etc. to spend a Friday afternoon playing a 17th level one off.

Now I recognize that this was edited and what we saw was the good bits but nonetheless we are talking about employees who agreed to spend a Friday afternoon being filmed while they play. They are not a bunch of pros, their a bunch of geeks who work at WotC.

I think they did a pretty good job and most telling they went from being pretty sedate on the early rounds to appearing to become quite entertained by the game (a fair bit of laughter around the table, that sort of thing) as things progressed. I think a lot of the credit for that goes to Dave Noonan who looks like he's really a very good DM for this style of gaming and managed to draw his players into the game with lots of corny lines and his own energy. Not a bad showing considering that his players where doing a one off at the end of a week of work.

Just a quick couple of comments after watching the podcast. I actually had to stop it because it looked so incredibly boring. Just an example of -long- combat, and the "roleplaying" was pretty much limited to Noonan hamming it up. This was just an example of "roll"-playing, which IMO is certainly not the most enjoyable part of the game. I tried the 4E game but at lower levels, and it didn't take nearly as long for combat. If it drags out like this in midrange levels (17 being the new "midrange" I guess, with epic stuff down the line), I don't really understand what was "fixed" by changing over from 3.5 to 4E.

Why not have a video podcast of actual roleplaying and not just hammed-up combat? Lower level 4E -was- fun, because it moved fast for us. You'd think they'd feature a video where people were laughing and acting out their roles, playing the "role" part at least as much as the "roll" part. And where were the "cool digital tools"? They should've showcased far more than they did... as this didn't look all that different from a 3.5E game when combat drags out. Horrible advertisement, IMO.

crosswiredmind wrote:
DudeMonkey wrote:
We need pictures of kittens in this thread.
kittens ........ with ......... spikes

YAY! Fel kittens, with spikes! (Reminds me of fel boars in WoW, hehe!)

**runs away gleefully, then spots Lilith and her cookies**


Matthew Morris wrote:
I've loved Lisa Smedman's work. This is the one I'm going to have to pass on, since I don't think even the quality of her work can save that plot and pacing.

I know, I love Lisa Smedman's work too. She probably was told to write in specific plot points in the 4E effort, so I don't blame her one bit. But it's a tragedy that it has to end this way.

Lathiira wrote:

Well, I got through it today. Here's the results . . .

Thanks Lathiira, for letting us know. No kidding... what a way to end the trilogy. :(

Someone in Germany received the book (it's been released there apparently), and they've posted a very spoiler-heavy thread detailing the fate of Eilistraee, Qilue, Cavatina, the Lady Penitent, and in fact the goodly members of the drow race.

It's possible that it's not true, but it has the ring of what WotC's been doing lately.

If true, I imagine a lot of people (particularly fans of Eilistraee and the "goodly" drow) will be quite angry.

Here at WotC:

I should be getting the book from Amazon in a few days and will be able to confirm if it's true or if it's a spoof (that is, assuming the June 3rd release date is correct for the US).

"Highlights" (very heavy spoilers):


According to the spoiler-poster:

Eilistraee is said to die, as part of her "plan" to transform the good dark elves into brown-skinned elves. She's killed by the Crescent Blade.

Qilue, Cavatina, and the Lady Penitent all die. Qilue's soul is destroyed in the process - as the Lady Penitent kills her.

Corellon shows up, takes up the "fight" apparently for the now brown-skinned elves, but doesn't take Lolth to task on the killing of their children.

Again - I'm just repeating what the spoiler-poster said, I have no verification of these details. They may not be true.

Benimoto wrote:
Laeknir wrote:

Just curious... what do people mean by the term "swingy" mechanics?

I hear this used also in statements like "low level games are swingy". What does it mean or imply?

It's a word that even the 3.5 DMG uses (when discussing single-monster encounters) and that I think came from discussions about Magic cards. It's generally a synonym for "unpredictable" or "variable". In the D&D encounter context, it means mechanics that can drastically change the outcome of a battle based on a single decision or die roll.

At low levels, a critical hit on a character can easily knock out or kill that character, even if the character otherwise has the battle in hand. At higher levels, certain attacks are devastating unless the character or monster has a spell that makes them completely immune. Those are all things I think of as "swingy".

Ah, alrighty. Makes sense. Thanks for letting me know.

On the surface, this seems rather "chop saki" theatre to me. Or rather a lot like playing Xena, where minions get one "sokk!" and they're down.

It also brings to mind monsters from warcraft, where you might be fighting one bug and it spawns 2-4 tiny "biteys" that slow your attacks or interfere with spellcasting.

I guess it could be okay if my wizard gets an AoE or area-effect spell that could take them out.

Just curious... what do people mean by the term "swingy" mechanics?

I hear this used also in statements like "low level games are swingy". What does it mean or imply?

Charles Evans 25 wrote:

I live in the UK, and I do not read the New York Times. Could you please clarify for me whether or not to date Forgotten Realms novels have been as popular according to the Best sellers List of the New York Times as Blackdragon states, and how representative that is of the market in booksales from major retail outlets or by internet over there in the US?

I'm not sure about all or even most of the Realms novels, but Salvatore’s most recent original hardcover, The Two Swords, Book III of The Hunter’s Blade Trilogy (October 2004) debuted at # 1 on The Wall Street Journal best-seller list and at # 4 on The New York Times best-seller list. Many of the Drizzt books appear on the NYT's best seller list.

That said, the NYT's best seller list is actually made up of several lists (different genres typically get their own list), so I'm not sure if there's a permanent log with exactly which list a book was listed on.

This also might be helpful:

Mike McArtor wrote:

The TENTATIVE list of authors for this book includes, but is not limited to, Wolfgang Baur, Clinton Boomer, Steve Greer, Jeff Grubb, Michael Kortes, Rob McCreary, Jason Nelson, Sean K Reynolds, Christine Schneider, Amber Scott, Owen KC Stephens, Todd Stewart, and JD Wiker.

Basically, I call this an all-star cast. ^_^

Remember, though, that this is TENTATIVE. A lot of these fine, excellent writers are very busy, so they might have to withdraw. Which would be sad, because... you know... all-star cast.

and Ed Greenwood...

Damn you and your ultra high quality catnip from Amsterdam!

must... must possess... so tasty... =)

I didn't really find any of it funny, but I wasn't really impressed with the first two toons either.

David Marks wrote:

I'm not the biggest Realms fan in the world, but the changes in 4E Realms sounds pretty interesting to me. I kind of take for granted that the Realms will be brought, kicking and screaming, through a RSE every edition change. It's their thing.

Cheers! :)

Unfortunately, these huge changes may kill the setting for old-timers. And there may not be enough people that are new to the setting that support it.

Erik Mona wrote:
Bruce is a solid writer. I think his involvement in the project bodes well for it being a cool campaign setting when all is said and done.

It may be "cool" for some, but what they've done to the Realms is to utterly diminish it such that it is barely recognizable. It's a damn shame, really. Floating earth motes, scores of dead gods, massive NPC death, WoW-ish landscapes, replacing continents and nations with a wave of a hand - all of these things greatly diminish the Realms.

The might just as well rename it Forgotten RSEs, because while this new setting might be "cool" in the eyes of some, it's a tragic abomination for most long-timers who have supported the setting through the years.

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