Caster-Martial Disparity Battleground - No Crying.


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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LilithsThrall wrote:

Look, RAW is what RAW is, but I'm not going to argue with you about it.

You want to toss it out the window so that you can create a character that has several levels more worth of gear than he's suppossed to have? Fine.

The Barbarian has been killing quite a lot of wizards who use crafting rules to break WBL. So, just figure out how much gear you want to have and AM BARBARIAN is allowed to have 20 times that much gear (so as to reflect all the crafting wizards he's killed and all the gear he's taken from them).

DONE.

Or, we can play by the rules.

Your choice.

First.If you red my posts before you would saw that i am in group of ppl arguing barbarian beat wizards.

Second.Guy that is buying items will have less items than the one that is making them.Simple as that.We CANT argue who killed who during leveling etc etc.Someone maybe killed commoner and found in his closet 10 artifacts that he tought are tools for digging or somethin.That is so relative.

But still as i said,i wasnt saying this becuase i was trying to say wizard will win,just quoted post that has no logic at all for me and in my opinion wasnt accurate.


LazarX wrote:
Atarlost wrote:


And then to add insult to injury they can craft mundane items far faster using the fabricate spell.

That's only if they're craftsmen themselves. Without a Craft score to back it up, Fabricate only serves as a more rapid way to transform good raw material to useless junk.

There is no rule preventing casters from putting skill points in a craft skill. They get more out of doing so than noncasters because with fabricate they can craft expensive items in reasonable timeframes. A few casters even have int as their casting stat for more skills than most classes and skills are now retroactive with non-headband increases.


Ok, lets play by the rules. Barbarian can't buy item that cost more than 16,000.


So basically what we're trying to explain over thousands of posts is:

Anyone, martial included (though most notably barbarians), have the edge on casters, when they are specifically designed to do so.

Casters have the edge on everyone else.

Everyone else has the edge on characters designed to kill casters, because they aren't casters.

It's like rock, scissors, paper, respectively, except rock is a very specific build, scissors is a specific role, and most people choose paper, because it encompasses more options.

What ought to happen is a more even spread of options within the motions.


Dominate Person is highly subjective. (James Jacobs even mentions that in a clarification he wrote on the spell).

Charm Monster is probably a better bet because then he's at least forced to like you and not spend every second trying to throw off your mental mind screwage. Sure, you probably shouldn't be try to loot him, but far easier to get him to do something in his nature to do for you.


trurl wrote:

The Divination Wizard still goes first. You cannot start rage on my turn.

Can any of these barbarians survive one round of spell casting?

** spoiler omitted **...

"Up to three times per day on command, this simple platinum band automatically reflects the next nine levels of spells cast at the wearer, exactly AS IF spell turning had been cast upon him".

Dont know if i am correct but you dont have spell turning on yourself,so there is nothing to dispel actually.What you need in this case would be spell disjunction becuase magic of the ring supplies you wtih that power.By that logic dispel magic would make full plate+5 just full plate.I guess it isnt case here.I might be wrong thou.


Leongorance wrote:
trurl wrote:

The Divination Wizard still goes first. You cannot start rage on my turn.

Can any of these barbarians survive one round of spell casting?

** spoiler omitted **...

"Up to three times per day on command, this simple platinum band automatically reflects the next nine levels of spells cast at the wearer, exactly AS IF spell turning had been cast upon him".

Dont know if i am correct but you dont have spell turning on yourself,so there is nothing to dispel actually.What you need in this case would be spell disjunction becuase magic of the ring supplies you wtih that power.By that logic dispel magic would make full plate+5 just full plate.I guess it isnt case here.I might be wrong thou.

You are correct. It would be much better to Disjunction as the quickened spell. Then, it would not matter the GM's interpretation.


Prost wrote:

Actually, he doesn't have an additional -4 to his will save. The Superstition bonus doesn't stack with the +4 Will bonus they normally get. So it would just be the -13 from Superstition down. And that will heavily effect their %'s you gave.

But because AM BARBARIAN had his hair pulled by mean girls when he was a kid, he took Strong Willed for +2 vs Charm/Compulsion

Arcane Sight will give you aura strength and schools (with a roll, but it's safe to assume you'd blow through that).

5 effects, starting at most powerful would mean 1 ring of spell turning is good.

Weapon: CL 15 (200k + MW cos)
Armor: CL 15 (even if it's just +1 Armor of Heavy Fort) (36k+MW cost)
Ring of Spell Turning CL 13 x2 (200k, 100k each)
Scarab of Protection CL 18 (38k)
Cloak of Resistance +5 CL 15 (25k)

He still has plenty of cash to build his belt of awesome, his boots of speed, etc. (Belt is CL 12) Even throw BATTY BAT a ring of ST maybe.

1 ring would survive.

Though the rings do take an action to activate. But with 2 rings he can have 7 hours of coverage which is a fairly hefty chunk of time for the work day. If it was on, it would add another effect (the Spell turning put upon him by the ring in addition to the ring itself)

But let's not worry about that.

On his action he would get a reroll with a +2 (oh, he can now rage) because your orders to Give his Loot he earned by stepping on the corpses of his enemies' is NOT really in the nature of a CN character.

Also, you gave 3 commands, not 1. So assuming it lands, AM BARBARIAN's turn rolls around and realizes he just got mind swizzled. Casting is obvious and he isn't prone to liking any unexplained casting. He can't rage for some reason. Well, that's against his Rage-tastic All Caps nature so BAM of how he rolls and smites CASTYS. Bam. New roll with +2.

But I have doubts it would matter. He charges, no rage, just a charge with his (Currently) MW Lance. He still has his strength belt because it wasn't hit by the dispel. He can output 90% likely about 90...

Yea he took 4 from rage but those +31 will he took from build mentioned above.And that build had improved iron will and book of wisdom for another +2.So it is the same % wise.He can go for imprisonment,that have lowers will save by another 4.

But all those are just situations and asumptions.And i think in much more situations barbarian will win.

Also noticed gear you wrote.If you give ring for bat its around 600k in gold.Left for tome of str+5 and belt of physical perfection.But one other thing came to my eye.He have +1 armor,necklase for energy levels and 2 rings of turning.So he actually lost 14AC because of that.No protection,natural and armor bonuses there.Barbarian is already very vulnerable against martials,but with that gear its catastrophe.Than he chould be really called total anticaster and thats it.


trurl wrote:
Leongorance wrote:
trurl wrote:

The Divination Wizard still goes first. You cannot start rage on my turn.

Can any of these barbarians survive one round of spell casting?

** spoiler omitted **...

"Up to three times per day on command, this simple platinum band automatically reflects the next nine levels of spells cast at the wearer, exactly AS IF spell turning had been cast upon him".

Dont know if i am correct but you dont have spell turning on yourself,so there is nothing to dispel actually.What you need in this case would be spell disjunction becuase magic of the ring supplies you wtih that power.By that logic dispel magic would make full plate+5 just full plate.I guess it isnt case here.I might be wrong thou.

You are correct. It would be much better to Disjunction as the quickened spell. Then, it would not matter the GM's interpretation.

Yea,but problem is that disjunction is level 9 spell,so i guess it cant be quickened.Maybe from rod or wand?


BIGGER PROBLEM AM BARBARIAN 4-800 FOOT CHARGE RADIUS.

SPELLS BEFORE LONG NEED NOT APPLY.


Prost wrote:

Actually, he doesn't have an additional -4 to his will save. The Superstition bonus doesn't stack with the +4 Will bonus they normally get. So it would just be the -13 from Superstition down. And that will heavily effect their %'s you gave.

But because AM BARBARIAN had his hair pulled by mean girls when he was a kid, he took Strong Willed for +2 vs Charm/Compulsion

Arcane Sight will give you aura strength and schools (with a roll, but it's safe to assume you'd blow through that).

5 effects, starting at most powerful would mean 1 ring of spell turning is good.

Weapon: CL 15 (200k + MW cos)
Armor: CL 15 (even if it's just +1 Armor of Heavy Fort) (36k+MW cost)
Ring of Spell Turning CL 13 x2 (200k, 100k each)
Scarab of Protection CL 18 (38k)
Cloak of Resistance +5 CL 15 (25k)

He still has plenty of cash to build his belt of awesome, his boots of speed, etc. (Belt is CL 12) Even throw BATTY BAT a ring of ST maybe.

1 ring would survive.

Though the rings do take an action to activate. But with 2 rings he can have 7 hours of coverage which is a fairly hefty chunk of time for the work day. If it was on, it would add another effect (the Spell turning put upon him by the ring in addition to the ring itself)

But let's not worry about that.

On his action he would get a reroll with a +2 (oh, he can now rage) because your orders to Give his Loot he earned by stepping on the corpses of his enemies' is NOT really in the nature of a CN character.

Also, you gave 3 commands, not 1. So assuming it lands, AM BARBARIAN's turn rolls around and realizes he just got mind swizzled. Casting is obvious and he isn't prone to liking any unexplained casting. He can't rage for some reason. Well, that's against his Rage-tastic All Caps nature so BAM of how he rolls and smites CASTYS. Bam. New roll with +2.

But I have doubts it would matter. He charges, no rage, just a charge with his (Currently) MW Lance. He still has his strength belt because it wasn't hit by the dispel. He can output 90% likely about 90...

Now, who is making stuff up?

? He gets to rage while under Domination.

Really?


AlecStorm wrote:
Leongorance wrote:
STR Ranger wrote:

That's the tactic I believe he's using.

You can charge while mounted.
Pounce lets you full attack while charging.
Sprited Charge means you do triple damage on a charge with a lance.

(Personally our group doesn't allow combining Sprited Charge with pounce, but Calain Heartstrike does 360 HP damage on a Pounce anyway AND makes them save vs Dazed. Usually gets the job done)

Well it can go in very looong debate.For example,on pounce.

Pounce (Ex) When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).

Your mount is charging,not you.There are many debates about that one,and many have different opinion thou.Becuase of that you have movement of 300+ in charge.Not even monk can charge that much.

Also in the pounce description it say full attack is at the END of a charge,so i doubt ride-by-attack is possible.

You are making triple damage because of run-up you made,so after first attack you dont have that speed anymore.Only if you tranform into jedi that can hit 5 times in less than a second with lance that is very long weapon.Doubt even jedi could do that.

P.S.I was just wandering,is there any weapon that gives its enchancment bonus to sunder attempts?Becuase someone mentioned earlier that with +7 furious weapon you count +7 for sunder attempts as well.

If your mount charge, you do also. If not, you don't charge, don't take move action so you can do all attacks.

As rules state, you can use pounce to make all attacks, you can (sigh) do it with a lance, all of them x3 dmg, but you can't use ride by attack.

Every manouver you do with a weapon uses the weapon's bonus.

What I suggest: give the x3 dmg only for first attack, and don't let ppl using a lance for attack outside of a charge or make multiple attacks.

If you defend from a manouver targeting your weapon apply the enchantment bonus to CMD.

Hmm i am just reading now CMB and CMD and i cant find where it say you can use your enhancement bonuses for calculating.It clearly states that for CMB you are using ONLY bab+strenght modifier+size modifier.In adition you can add bonuses provided by some feats or class abilities.

Similar goes for CMD,10+bab+str mod+dex mod+seize.In addition,you can as well add from feats and abilities,plus dodge,deflection,insight,sacred,circumstances,luck,morale and profane bonuses to AC.And thats it.

There is no single sentence that indicates you can use your items enhancement bonuses to determine your CMBs/CMDs.

Grand Lodge

Atarlost wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Atarlost wrote:


And then to add insult to injury they can craft mundane items far faster using the fabricate spell.

That's only if they're craftsmen themselves. Without a Craft score to back it up, Fabricate only serves as a more rapid way to transform good raw material to useless junk.
There is no rule preventing casters from putting skill points in a craft skill. They get more out of doing so than noncasters because with fabricate they can craft expensive items in reasonable timeframes. A few casters even have int as their casting stat for more skills than most classes and skills are now retroactive with non-headband increases.

No there isn't. But that does mean investing skill points. DC's for Fabricate aren't any lesser than standard DC's and a GM would be within his rights to raise the DC by a suitable amount for a rush job. So casters need need to be investing points for each relevent craft check they're planning on making.


Leongorance wrote:
AlecStorm wrote:
Leongorance wrote:
STR Ranger wrote:

That's the tactic I believe he's using.

You can charge while mounted.
Pounce lets you full attack while charging.
Sprited Charge means you do triple damage on a charge with a lance.

(Personally our group doesn't allow combining Sprited Charge with pounce, but Calain Heartstrike does 360 HP damage on a Pounce anyway AND makes them save vs Dazed. Usually gets the job done)

Well it can go in very looong debate.For example,on pounce.

Pounce (Ex) When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).

Your mount is charging,not you.There are many debates about that one,and many have different opinion thou.Becuase of that you have movement of 300+ in charge.Not even monk can charge that much.

Also in the pounce description it say full attack is at the END of a charge,so i doubt ride-by-attack is possible.

You are making triple damage because of run-up you made,so after first attack you dont have that speed anymore.Only if you tranform into jedi that can hit 5 times in less than a second with lance that is very long weapon.Doubt even jedi could do that.

P.S.I was just wandering,is there any weapon that gives its enchancment bonus to sunder attempts?Becuase someone mentioned earlier that with +7 furious weapon you count +7 for sunder attempts as well.

If your mount charge, you do also. If not, you don't charge, don't take move action so you can do all attacks.

As rules state, you can use pounce to make all attacks, you can (sigh) do it with a lance, all of them x3 dmg, but you can't use ride by attack.

Every manouver you do with a weapon uses the weapon's bonus.

What I suggest: give the x3 dmg only for first attack, and don't let ppl using a lance for attack outside of a charge or make multiple attacks.

If you defend from a manouver targeting your weapon apply the enchantment bonus to CMD.

...

Core rulebook, page 199 for english version, "performing a combat manouver), line 19:

"Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats and OTHER EFFECTS. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the combat manouver."

Otherwise, why use a weapon with the trip ability (except for those with reach)?


LazarX wrote:
Atarlost wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Atarlost wrote:


And then to add insult to injury they can craft mundane items far faster using the fabricate spell.

That's only if they're craftsmen themselves. Without a Craft score to back it up, Fabricate only serves as a more rapid way to transform good raw material to useless junk.
There is no rule preventing casters from putting skill points in a craft skill. They get more out of doing so than noncasters because with fabricate they can craft expensive items in reasonable timeframes. A few casters even have int as their casting stat for more skills than most classes and skills are now retroactive with non-headband increases.
No there isn't. But that does mean investing skill points. DC's for Fabricate aren't any lesser than standard DC's and a GM would be within his rights to raise the DC by a suitable amount for a rush job. So casters need need to be investing points for each relevent craft check they're planning on making.

The GM could fiat that fabricate DCs are higher. He could also fiat that spells that begin with vowels aren't present in his setting or that halflings get +8 to sleight of hand against trolls and dragons. Doesn't make it RAW or RAI.

And, of course, casters and non-casters are in exactly the same boat for skill point allocation to craft mundane items. Casters just get to do so in a span of time that might actually fit into the downtime in an adventure.

So the mage-smith has craft (armor), because special materials crank completion times to an absurd degree, and the magic arms and armor feat.

The mundane smith has master craftsman and craft (armor) and craft magical arms and armor.

If you commission a suit of mithral armor from the mage-smith you can have it in a day. If you bring him a masterwork sword or bow he can enchant it for you.

The mundane smith can craft you mithral armor in a couple years and enchant it, but can't enchant a sword or bow.

The mage-smith can also learn craft (weapons) if he wants. He can craft special material weapons quickly now because fabricate applies to every craft he has.

The mundane smith who takes craft (weapons) can make a weapon in some absurdly long period of time and still can't enchant it because master craftsman is tied to craft (armor). He can't take master craftsman again because nobody can take a feat twice unless it's specifically called out as being able to be taken twice.

The only case in which the master craftsman isn't boned is ring making, since craft (jewelry) applies to all of them.

Oh, yeah, and fabricate brings the crafting time low enough that inspire competence or buffing spells that apply to skill checks can effect the craft roll. Heroism, for instance which happens to be on the wizard list and gives the same +2 as the master craftsman feat would.


Leongorance wrote:
.Guy that is buying items will have less items than the one that is making them.

In your house rules, sure. But not by RAW. When sticking to RAW and creating a character above 1st level, the WBL is the total value of the character's assets.


Someone mentioned using Greater Dispel Magic to dispel 5 magic items belonging to AM BARBARIAN.

As per RAW, that doesn't work. It would require a targetted dispel as an area dispel doesn't work against magic items. But such a targetted dispel would have to be targetted against a particular item. In other words, Greater Dispel Magic can dispel 5 effects from a single item. It can't, however, dispel 5 different items.


If you create a NPC you take the listed equip, but if you make a character above 1st level GM should consider the fact that he took item creation feats (and the level he took).
Maybe not 2x, because while you craft items the other player can go in adventure, but you should have a bonus. Otherwise, the item that you give to someone that has not such feats should be random items, instead you can choose.

Liberty's Edge

The way it should work, or shouldn't work, or whatever, doesn't matter. The way it DOES work is that everyone gets X amount of money worth the gear. It doesn't matter if they crafted it and only spent 1/2 X in gold to do so, it doesn't matter if they found it off the very last person they killed.


LilithsThrall wrote:

Someone mentioned using Greater Dispel Magic to dispel 5 magic items belonging to AM BARBARIAN.

As per RAW, that doesn't work. It would require a targetted dispel as an area dispel doesn't work against magic items. But such a targetted dispel would have to be targetted against a particular item. In other words, Greater Dispel Magic can dispel 5 effects from a single item. It can't, however, dispel 5 different items.

yes...I made a mistake in my original post but corrected it later after discussion. Whether you use dispel magic or greater dispel magic you can only target one object. So you could dispel the barbarians lance. It would then function as a masterwork lance for 1d4 rounds.

My question for the new challenger (divination wizard)

What's your perception? You are assuming that you see him before or at the same time that he sees you. Explain why this is?

I am not challenging your going first. I understand how divination wizards work. I just want to know specifically what your perception bonus is. You are going first but you may have no idea were the barbarian is because he is beyond your perception range. We have covered this multiple times over this thread (Who sees who first).

Liberty's Edge

As for perception, its a moot point. Elf, an optimized choice for a caster, less so for a barbarian, gets a bonus to perception. A trait makes perception a class skill along with a bonus (note, my conjurer took it). Circumstance bonus to perception items also render small bonuses virtually moot.


Zorrmo wrote:
Ok, lets play by the rules. Barbarian can't buy item that cost more than 16,000.

Close but missing the second half of the rules. This is the way it works.

Mtropolis base item cost 16,000: So anyone buying a magic item has a 75% chance of finding any item 16000 gp or less.

IN ADDITION: That same metropolis has all minor magic items, 4d4 medium magic items above 16,000 gp, and 3d4 major magic items above 16,000 gp.

There is no hard value cap.

Quote:
The number and types of magic items available in a community depend upon its size. Each community has a base value associated with it (see Table: Available Magic Items (per Core Rulebook) or Table: Available Magic Items (per Gamemastery Guide.) There is a 75% chance that any item of that value or lower can be found for sale with little effort in that community. In addition, the community has a number of other items for sale. These items are randomly determined and are broken down by category (minor, medium, or major). After determining the number of items available in each category, refer to Table: Random Magic Item Generation to determine the type of each item (potion, scroll, ring, weapon, etc.) before moving on to the individual charts to determine the exact item. Reroll any items that fall below the community's base value.

So with time and travel a lvl 20 character can have anything they damn well please.


ShadowcatX wrote:
As for perception, its a moot point. Elf, an optimized choice for a caster, less so for a barbarian, gets a bonus to perception. A trait makes perception a class skill along with a bonus (note, my conjurer took it). Circumstance bonus to perception items also render small bonuses virtually moot.

With planning, the wizard can have the same perception score as the barbarian. Maybe a little better. Yes. But you have to invest that to have it. I was curious as to if he did.


AlecStorm wrote:

If you create a NPC you take the listed equip, but if you make a character above 1st level GM should consider the fact that he took item creation feats (and the level he took).

For the exact same reason that somebody who takes sleight of hand should get 2x as much loot - if they steal it, it doesn't cost them anything to produce and, so, shouldn't come out of their WBL.


One thing that I think verges on game breaking is the fact that Int bonuses received after first level grant the full skill points as if you had that Int from first level.

It dimenishes the value of Rogues and Bards IMHO as Wizards will, inevitably, have the most skill points.

Liberty's Edge

I don't think it is game breaking by any means, but it certainly does favor wizards and witches over other classes. But it is just so darn easy.


AlecStorm wrote:
Leongorance wrote:
AlecStorm wrote:
Leongorance wrote:
STR Ranger wrote:

That's the tactic I believe he's using.

You can charge while mounted.
Pounce lets you full attack while charging.
Sprited Charge means you do triple damage on a charge with a lance.

(Personally our group doesn't allow combining Sprited Charge with pounce, but Calain Heartstrike does 360 HP damage on a Pounce anyway AND makes them save vs Dazed. Usually gets the job done)

Well it can go in very looong debate.For example,on pounce.

Pounce (Ex) When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).

Your mount is charging,not you.There are many debates about that one,and many have different opinion thou.Becuase of that you have movement of 300+ in charge.Not even monk can charge that much.

Also in the pounce description it say full attack is at the END of a charge,so i doubt ride-by-attack is possible.

You are making triple damage because of run-up you made,so after first attack you dont have that speed anymore.Only if you tranform into jedi that can hit 5 times in less than a second with lance that is very long weapon.Doubt even jedi could do that.

P.S.I was just wandering,is there any weapon that gives its enchancment bonus to sunder attempts?Becuase someone mentioned earlier that with +7 furious weapon you count +7 for sunder attempts as well.

If your mount charge, you do also. If not, you don't charge, don't take move action so you can do all attacks.

As rules state, you can use pounce to make all attacks, you can (sigh) do it with a lance, all of them x3 dmg, but you can't use ride by attack.

Every manouver you do with a weapon uses the weapon's bonus.

What I suggest: give the x3 dmg only for first attack, and don't let ppl using a lance for attack outside of a charge or make multiple attacks.

If you defend from a manouver targeting your weapon apply the enchantment bonus

...

Becuase you can make trip attempts only with trip weapons actually.And unnarmed strikes.Thats why.

And i am pretty sure "other effects" have nothing to do with weapon enhancment.Only weapons that gives you bonuses on CMB checks are weapons like disarming weapon for example(+2 on disarm checks).

Liberty's Edge

Leongorance wrote:
AlecStorm wrote:
Otherwise, why use a weapon with the trip ability (except for those with reach)?
Becuase you can make trip attempts only with trip weapons actually.And unnarmed strikes.Thats why.

I'd love to see a source on that. AFAIK all a tripping weapon does is give the tripper an option to drop the weapon if he fails his trip and is successfully tripped in response.


It' simple and clear. Enanchment bonus of weapon is an effect that you can apply to your hit throw. So, it's good for the CMB. Enanchment bonus is an effect. A permanent one, indeed, but it is.
Otherwise the situation would be silly: without feats, you give attack of opportunity with or without weapon. If you fail (and it's probable) you can be tripped or drop the weapon. So tripped or disarmed, you have to choose what manouver you want to suffer... not a good weapon ability.
If you have the feats, this weapon ability gives nothing to you, it's useless.
This has not much sense.
Instead, if you apply the enanchment bonus there's a reason for taking a weapon with trip special ability.
So, if you use a weapon to make a manouver, apply the bonus you have on the weapon.


ShadowcatX wrote:
Leongorance wrote:
AlecStorm wrote:
Otherwise, why use a weapon with the trip ability (except for those with reach)?
Becuase you can make trip attempts only with trip weapons actually.And unnarmed strikes.Thats why.
I'd love to see a source on that. AFAIK all a tripping weapon does is give the tripper an option to drop the weapon if he fails his trip and is successfully tripped in response.

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/rules/isATripWeaponRequiredToTrip&page=1&source=search#0

You have thread there so everything will be explained if you wanna bother:)


AlecStorm wrote:

It' simple and clear. Enanchment bonus of weapon is an effect that you can apply to your hit throw. So, it's good for the CMB. Enanchment bonus is an effect. A permanent one, indeed, but it is.

Otherwise the situation would be silly: without feats, you give attack of opportunity with or without weapon. If you fail (and it's probable) you can be tripped or drop the weapon. So tripped or disarmed, you have to choose what manouver you want to suffer... not a good weapon ability.
If you have the feats, this weapon ability gives nothing to you, it's useless.
This has not much sense.
Instead, if you apply the enanchment bonus there's a reason for taking a weapon with trip special ability.
So, if you use a weapon to make a manouver, apply the bonus you have on the weapon.

Well as this isnt thread for such disscusion and i really think enhancement bonus dont give you CMB and CMD.By that means when you attempt to sunder piece of armor his enhancment bonus would apply as well.And in CMD description it is nothing with that.It states you add only dodge,deflection,sacred,profane,luck,circumstances,insight,morale bonuses on AC on your CMD..it doesnt say you add you armor bonus when some1 is sundering armor neither shield bonus when someone is sundering shield..

Liberty's Edge

Leongorance wrote:
ShadowcatX wrote:
Leongorance wrote:
AlecStorm wrote:
Otherwise, why use a weapon with the trip ability (except for those with reach)?
Becuase you can make trip attempts only with trip weapons actually.And unnarmed strikes.Thats why.
I'd love to see a source on that. AFAIK all a tripping weapon does is give the tripper an option to drop the weapon if he fails his trip and is successfully tripped in response.

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/rules/isATripWeaponRequiredToTrip&page=1&source=search#0

You have thread there so everything will be explained if you wanna bother:)

That doesn't link to anything.


Leongorance wrote:
AlecStorm wrote:

It' simple and clear. Enanchment bonus of weapon is an effect that you can apply to your hit throw. So, it's good for the CMB. Enanchment bonus is an effect. A permanent one, indeed, but it is.

Otherwise the situation would be silly: without feats, you give attack of opportunity with or without weapon. If you fail (and it's probable) you can be tripped or drop the weapon. So tripped or disarmed, you have to choose what manouver you want to suffer... not a good weapon ability.
If you have the feats, this weapon ability gives nothing to you, it's useless.
This has not much sense.
Instead, if you apply the enanchment bonus there's a reason for taking a weapon with trip special ability.
So, if you use a weapon to make a manouver, apply the bonus you have on the weapon.

Well as this isnt thread for such disscusion and i really think enhancement bonus dont give you CMB and CMD.By that means when you attempt to sunder piece of armor his enhancment bonus would apply as well.And in CMD description it is nothing with that.It states you add only dodge,deflection,sacred,profane,luck,circumstances,insight,morale bonuses on AC on your CMD..it doesnt say you add you armor bonus when some1 is sundering armor neither shield bonus when someone is sundering shield..

Rules state that you can use any effect that are valid for your weapon to CMB. Nothing about CMD. I just suggested to let players use the bonus against sunder and disarm attempts.

Please read my post more carefully.


If you go to d20pfsrd.com and look in the weapons section, they have what is probably the relevant quote.

The Trip Special Quality:
If you want to make a trip combat maneuver, do you have to use a weapon with the trip special feature?

No. Note that when making a trip combat maneuver, you don't need to use a weapon at all--for example, you can trip when you're unarmed, even though unarmed strike isn't listed as a trip weapon.

There are advantages to using a weapon with the trip special feature (a.k.a. a "trip weapon") when making a trip combat maneuver.

One, if your trip attack fails by 10 or more, you can drop the trip weapon instead of being knocked prone.

Two, you can apply the weapon's enhancement bonus, weapon-specific attack bonuses such as Weapon Focus, and so on to your trip combat maneuver roll.

For example, you'd add the enhancement bonus from a +5 whip to your trip combat maneuver roll because a whip is a trip weapon. You wouldn't add the enhancement bonus from a +5 longsword to your trip combat maneuver roll because a longsword is not a trip weapon. In effect, there's no difference between making an unarmed trip attempt and a trip attempt with a +5 longsword because the sword doesn't help you make the trip attempt.

—Sean K Reynolds, 03/15/11


LilithsThrall wrote:

Someone mentioned using Greater Dispel Magic to dispel 5 magic items belonging to AM BARBARIAN.

As per RAW, that doesn't work. It would require a targetted dispel as an area dispel doesn't work against magic items. But such a targetted dispel would have to be targetted against a particular item. In other words, Greater Dispel Magic can dispel 5 effects from a single item. It can't, however, dispel 5 different items.

Yes. Does a Ring of Spell Turning cast Spell Turning on you at 13th level (130mins)? Or not? If it is a spell effect generated by the ring, it should be affected. If not, the Greater Dispel could be targeted at the ring itself.

A GM would have to decide if Spell Turning from the ring is a buff or not.


@Andy Ferguson.

I like your Ranger build. There's also a pretty specific Ranger Archery Handbook in the advice section that kicks a$$ DPR wise.

I'm hoping for forum confirmation, but I'll post a build Later for a Magus who can hit with 9attacks and a spell while shifted into a CALIKANG.

I'm starting to think we need a Specific Thread for 20Th l
level builds that are tough enough to hand with AM BARBARIAN.


trurl wrote:
LilithsThrall wrote:

Someone mentioned using Greater Dispel Magic to dispel 5 magic items belonging to AM BARBARIAN.

As per RAW, that doesn't work. It would require a targetted dispel as an area dispel doesn't work against magic items. But such a targetted dispel would have to be targetted against a particular item. In other words, Greater Dispel Magic can dispel 5 effects from a single item. It can't, however, dispel 5 different items.

Yes. Does a Ring of Spell Turning cast Spell Turning on you at 13th level (130mins)? Or not? If it is a spell effect generated by the ring, it should be affected. If not, the Greater Dispel could be targeted at the ring itself.

A GM would have to decide if Spell Turning from the ring is a buff or not.

If the ring casts the spell on the wearer, then the effect will persist after the person removes the ring (as long as the spell duration hasn't expired).

That's not what happens.


You know I want to mention the although a barbarian can sunder a prismatic sphere a monk can jump though it. I mean all the damage effects are reflex saves monks have improved evasion and real high reflex save. The next bit is poison monk are immune to poison. The next is a fort save for flesh to stone that might be hard but a level 17 monk should be able to do it. The rest are will saves wisdom is a monk primary stat and monks have saves coming out there ears. I think that a monk has at least a 70-90 percent chance of getting though without a scar.


fictionfan wrote:
You know I want to mention the although a barbarian can sunder a prismatic sphere a monk can jump though it. I mean all the damage effects are reflex saves monks have improved evasion and real high reflex save. The next bit is poison monk are immune to poison. The next is a fort save for flesh to stone that might be hard but a level 17 monk should be able to do it. The rest are will saves wisdom is a monk primary stat and monks have saves coming out there ears. I think that a monk has at least a 70-90 percent chance of getting though without a scar.

True.


Someone should come up with a 20th level monk build and see what it looks like.


sleight of hand is just a minor investment of skill points. and the investment provides means other than wealth. but i wouldn't allow the investment of skill points to double your wealth. i would allow it as a kind of day job roll to earn money (kinda like perform).

item creation feats don't give you any tangible benefit other than cash. they are just there to save money. i'd allow items that qualify for the feat to be made at half price. assuming the character could make them on a roll of 10 or better without the requisite spells.


Shuriken Nekogami wrote:

sleight of hand is just a minor investment of skill points. and the investment provides means other than wealth. but i wouldn't allow the investment of skill points to double your wealth. i would allow it as a kind of day job roll to earn money (kinda like perform).

item creation feats don't give you any tangible benefit other than cash. they are just there to save money. i'd allow items that qualify for the feat to be made at half price. assuming the character could make them on a roll of 10 or better without the requisite spells.

Craft feats allow you to make custom magic items. That's big. By consolidating multiple desired magical effects into one item, they eliminate time wasted in returning an item to your pack and fishing out another item to replace it with.


LilithsThrall wrote:
Shuriken Nekogami wrote:

sleight of hand is just a minor investment of skill points. and the investment provides means other than wealth. but i wouldn't allow the investment of skill points to double your wealth. i would allow it as a kind of day job roll to earn money (kinda like perform).

item creation feats don't give you any tangible benefit other than cash. they are just there to save money. i'd allow items that qualify for the feat to be made at half price. assuming the character could make them on a roll of 10 or better without the requisite spells.

Craft feats allow you to make custom magic items. That's big. By consolidating multiple desired magical effects into one item, they eliminate time wasted in returning an item to your pack and fishing out another item to replace it with.

but you can always commission custom items or start with them anyway if you have the wealth to aquire them. i don't get how custom items are the benefit of a feat if you can just simply commission them.

imagine a table of 4 pathfinder players who have permission to choose 4 3.5 splatbooks for thier character apiece and only 1 of the 4 chooses the magic item compendium. because of one of his four choices, he can arguably give his companions a 5th. either by aquiring the gear on thier behalf, or by dying and having his stuff looted.


Shuriken Nekogami wrote:
LilithsThrall wrote:
Shuriken Nekogami wrote:

sleight of hand is just a minor investment of skill points. and the investment provides means other than wealth. but i wouldn't allow the investment of skill points to double your wealth. i would allow it as a kind of day job roll to earn money (kinda like perform).

item creation feats don't give you any tangible benefit other than cash. they are just there to save money. i'd allow items that qualify for the feat to be made at half price. assuming the character could make them on a roll of 10 or better without the requisite spells.

Craft feats allow you to make custom magic items. That's big. By consolidating multiple desired magical effects into one item, they eliminate time wasted in returning an item to your pack and fishing out another item to replace it with.

but you can always commission custom items or start with them anyway if you have the wealth to aquire them. i don't get how custom items are the benefit of a feat if you can just simply commission them.

imagine a table of 4 pathfinder players who have permission to choose 4 3.5 splatbooks for thier character apiece and only 1 of the 4 chooses the magic item compendium. because of one of his four choices, he can arguably give his companions a 5th. either by aquiring the gear on thier behalf, or by dying and having his stuff looted.

I need to refresh myself on what RAW has to say about commishioning an item. Can you provide a link to it in the SRD?


Andy Ferguson wrote:
Someone should come up with a 20th level monk build and see what it looks like.

I'll work on a Sohei at some point. The more I look at them the more they seem to be precisely what's needed.


TarkXT wrote:
Andy Ferguson wrote:
Someone should come up with a 20th level monk build and see what it looks like.
I'll work on a Sohei at some point. The more I look at them the more they seem to be precisely what's needed.

The initiative boost, ki pool and flurrying with better weapons seems sweet. Tetori looks pretty hot too, the ability to grapple a mage to death, no matter what they do is pretty awesome, it's a shame you can't combine it with Maneuver Master.


Andy Ferguson wrote:
TarkXT wrote:
Andy Ferguson wrote:
Someone should come up with a 20th level monk build and see what it looks like.
I'll work on a Sohei at some point. The more I look at them the more they seem to be precisely what's needed.
The initiative boost, ki pool and flurrying with better weapons seems sweet. Tetori looks pretty hot too, the ability to grapple a mage to death, no matter what they do is pretty awesome, it's a shame you can't combine it with Maneuver Master.

It's also a shame you would never get any wizard in a grapple to begin with. . .


Divergent wrote:


It's also a shame you would never get any wizard in a grapple to begin with. . .

And why is that?


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Andy Ferguson wrote:
Divergent wrote:


It's also a shame you would never get any wizard in a grapple to begin with. . .

And why is that?

Because the wizard is Schroedinger's Wizard. His position, spell load-out, and capabilities are not fixed until required.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Caedwyr wrote:
Andy Ferguson wrote:
Divergent wrote:


It's also a shame you would never get any wizard in a grapple to begin with. . .

And why is that?
Because the wizard is Schroedinger's Wizard. His position, spell load-out, and capabilities are not fixed until required.

PEE-SHAW. THIS AM WHY BARBARIAN EXIST. EVERY PROBLEM CASTY PRESENTS AM NAIL IF HAMMER AM BIG ENOUGH.

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