Brief post now, maybe more later: I've been working on a comparable build, and I'm going with halfling. I hate to have to wait until level two to have both weapon finesse and two-weapon fighting, but the +1 AC and to hit are nice, the racial bonus synergize really well, and the ability modifiers are spot on for a party face.
PS: Spring-loaded wrist sheaths are a nice little bonus pre-Quick Draw, and the River Rat trait is nice for the +1 damage.
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Also I would like some recommendations about feats and stat spread, I went the 12 Int to get the extra skills I need to do the face.
Another option which occurs to me is that your Sorcerer already has Bluff and Intimidate as class skills and a good Charisma. There are a number of traits he could take to add Diplomacy as a class skill.
The knife master kills trapfinding, so I don't think that is an option unless you never expect to see magical traps. (I don't believe that is a reasonable expectation in any AP.)
Have you thought about the new Dervish archetype for Bard? Of the three characters, you have identified, you have no healing.
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The only eastern flavor of the ninja is the name. Change it.
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Its starting a first level.
Str 10
Dex 16 (+2 Human)
Con 12
Int 14
Wis 11
Cha 12
Traded Int for Cha.
Rogue 1/Knife Master
Lvl 1 Feat: Two Weapon Fighting Human Feat: Weapon Finesse
Lvl 2: Rogue Talent: Fast Stealth
Lvl 3: Combat Experties
Lvl 4: Rogue Talent: Bleeding Attack
Lvl 5: Gang Up
Lvl 6: Rogue Talent: Surprise attack
Lvl 7: Butterfly's Sting
Lvl 8: Combat Trick: Improved two-weapon fighting
Lvl 9: Agile Maneuvers
Lvl 10: Rogue Talent: Improved evasion
Lvl 11: Improved Critical
Lvl 12: Rogue Talent: Feat: Improved Dirty Trick
Skills: Acrobatics, Bluff, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Disquise, Linguistics, Perception, Intimidate, Stealth, Sleight of Hand, and Use Magic Device.
Rogue 1/Knife Master
Lvl 1 Feat: Two Weapon Fighting Human Feat: Weapon Finesse
I remember really liking the idea of the knife-master in the contest.
Seriously ? Don´t take TWF at first Level, take at third or so.At first lvl you can ill afford the -2 on attacks and while your the face of the party, you don´t want to be caught in the front-line when it comes to a fight, unless its againgst low-lvl very lighty armored types.
Take point blank as a feat and river-rat as a trait (+1 on Damage with a dagger). Throw and see that you come behind your foes.
Maybe even take deadly aim. And get a crossbow for ranged work nonetheless ;)
deft palm sounds awesome, hide a weapon in plain sight.
dagger rogues are made for hiding weapons.
underhandled: surprise round, your hidden daggers sneak is maximized, d8 = 8 damage, awesome
hide in plain sight: normally a must have.
weapon snatcher: use sleight of hand to steal weapon: might be quite good
also, this might sound crazy, but I would consider going into sap master with merciful daggers.
You can do 16+3 bonus damage per 2 levels with your first attack, not even counting other boni. You can strike down people in the city without anyone ever noticing.
The only eastern flavor of the ninja is the name. Change it.
With vanishing trick, you could flavor it like your character is the Invisible Man. Maybe you drank something you shouldn't have, and now you can turn see-through when you think hard. Maybe you're a little crazier because of it.
If your DM is hoping for characters to fit the theme of the campaign, he'll no doubt love this.
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Academically, I dispute this point:
At first lvl you can ill afford the -2 on attacks
At first level, the d20 itself is a much larger predictor of success or failure of an attack roll than your bonuses.
eg.Against an AC 15 Kobold, and using the +3 to hit rogue build described in the OP, a single dagger attack has an 8/20=40% chance of hitting. Two dagger attacks at +1 (a 30% chance of a hit per attack) have a 51% chance of at least one hit.
The point about not being caught in the front lines is a good one though as rogues really aren't that great if they get caught in the open. I'd be tempted to go with something like (as a human):
Lvl 1. Point blank shot, rapid shot, and walk in the dungeon with a dagger in each hand
Lvl 2. Combat trick (quick draw)
Lvl 3. Improved initiative
After 3rd, you are probably winning initiative and getting a pair of sneak attack throws at -1 to hit, +1 to damage at short range. If you're the stealthy point man and aren't spotted, you don't have to step into the open (likely negating stealth) for a melee attack but instead fling a d4+2d6 dagger with surprise, quick draw another, likely win initiative, fling another pair of daggers or maybe just one so you can retreat towards your meat shields with yet another pair of daggers in your hands.
After that, you can keep flinging daggers as you move to flank. If you want to close to melee for the occasional full round flanking sneak attack, take 2wf at 3rd or 5th.
Took the words out of my mouth, sphar.
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I don't think I've seen one post from you where you don't tell someone to roll something else.I mean really,if people know the consequences of what they're playing,let them play it.
IMO, if someone asks for advice, then they may not know the consequences of what they are playing. The OP, for example, considered ninja, but rejected it due to his DM. He didn't mention it in his original post, so it was reasonable advice except for his personal situation.
And a link to a post where I didn't say roll something else:
[url=http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/advice/pathfinderSocietyDruidBuildAdvice[/url]
Throwing build.
Hmm, I really like this. I'll go ahead and back this choice. However, I'm quite curious as to the function of two-weapon-fighting with thrown weapons. We've always played it that they functioned as melee weapons in this regard, as you've an axe or hatchet or dagger in each hand, and you can merely opt to take the best tactical choice, melee or ranged.
The new "Close-Quarters Throwing" feat might help in this regard, but I'm sure there are better things to spend your precious feats on.
If your GM would allow it, consider a dip in monk for Improved Grapple (or the two feat investment). I've a certain soft spot for grappler rogues (though as a GM, mine usually come in pairs), and think it's a really good choice for a high-strength build.
Why it does not appear more often is because you need a separate magical thrown weapon for each attack, which becomes quite prohibitive very quickly.
Scabbards of Vigor can help somewhat in that regard.
I'm anticipating building a sneak attacking dagger wielder for my next character, so I've been contemplating these sorts of builds a lot lately (currently planning to take 2 levels of Rogue then Vivisectionist/Preservationist, though that may change). I've wondered about the viability of throwing daggers - it seems like a fun idea, but with a range increment of 10, my first thought is that it would be hard to land things until you're close enough to enter melee anyway. For those with experience with the build, is this not actually the case?
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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There is a returning weapon spell in ultimate combat, which gives a weapon the returning property. There is also a 'communal' version which you can use to give multiple weapons that property.
The other big problem with throwing is you have to get each weapon enhanced separately.
For what it's worth the scabbard of vigor uses the "Belt" slot which is pretty prohibitive.
Just wanted to point out that your build doesn't take combat expertise, which you need for gang up.
Good Afternoon Guys and Gals,
I am considering making a Knife Master Rogue for a Carrion Crown game. It likely I might have to be the face of the party so will need some diplomacy/intimidate. Party at this stage looks to be 4 players including a Ranger and a Sorcerer (Arcane Bloodline)
Its starting a first level and just Pathfinder only supplements, and I was thinking about the following build does anyone have any advice on race. I should hopefully get flanking
Str 10
Dex 16 (+2 Human)
Con 12
Int 12
Wis 11
Cha 14Rogue 1/Knife Master
Lvl 1 Feat: Two Weapon Fighting Human Feat: Weapon Finesse
Lvl 2: Rogue Talent Fast Stealth
Lvl 3: Improved Initiative
Lvl 4: Rogue Talent :Bleeding Attack
Lvl 5: Quick Draw
Lvl 6: Rogue Talent: Surprise attack
Lvl 7: Point blank Shot (for knife throwing)
Lvl 8: Combat Trick: Improved two-weapon fighting
Lvl 9: ??
Lvl 10: Rogue Talon: Improved evasionSkills: Acrobatics, Bluff, Climb, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Perception, Intimidate, Stealth, Sleight of Hand and Use Magic Device.
Ok first of all where is Piranha strike? (i suspect that you can't spare the points for STR 13 and power attack right?)
Also i don't like that bleeding attack rogue talent, it doesn't stack.Why do you want quick draw?
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Look you need skills, seriously, and at that point you have two options.
1.Stay human, you get a bonus skill every level.
2.You are not front line, take the extra skill instead of a hitpoint. 2 extra skills a level adds up fast.
I would be a little bit worried your int is so low, i would sacrifice the constitution for more skills, plus if you roll carp you can take the bonus human skill/hit point and let it float which ever way you want.
Not having read the carrion crown i would wonder about the undead, and bladed weapons vs undead, they have resistance to slashing and piercing right?
I don't think that there are that many undead in carrion crown, besides iirc the only common undead that have weapon type DR are skeletons and the zobies.
Just pointing out that a ninja cannot take the Knife Master archetype, as the archetype abilities replace abilities that a ninja does not have to begin with.
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Look you need skills, seriously, and at that point you have two options.
1.Stay human, you get a bonus skill every level.
2.You are not front line, take the extra skill instead of a hitpoint. 2 extra skills a level adds up fast.I would be a little bit worried your int is so low, i would sacrifice the constitution for more skills, plus if you roll carp you can take the bonus human skill/hit point and let it float which ever way you want.
Not having read the carrion crown i would wonder about the undead, and bladed weapons vs undead, they have resistance to slashing and piercing right?
How many skills do you want him to have? I have seen many Rogues with only 10 int. That still gives 9 per lvl if you are Human. That lets you get all key skills and with spares for extras.
I would prefer to have 14 Con and then choose whether or not to give up the Favoured class bonus for a skill if I really needed an extra (with the bonus the extra Con gives +1 Fort save)
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Really depends on the AP, like crimson throne the more skills the better. Its not always about combat, in fact a lot of time someone needs a skill. I am the fighter, should be my name tag, but i love to have a good charisma, and a few points in int to boot. Optimize? eh....anyone can do that, eventually you could have every class down to one or two single stat lines,maxed out. But sometimes skills are needed, and the rogue fills that nicely.
and there is ALWAYS somewhere a rogue can spend skills.
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If you really want to crank out the damage with daggers, straight-rogue or even mostly-rogue is the wrong way to go.
human ...20pt
STR:16
DEX+18
CON:12
INT:10
WIS:12
CHA:07
traits: River Rat, Indomitable Faith
01 barb1 01 [Hurler/+10increment] Extra Rage, Iron Will
...every NPC punk loves to cast will-save magic on the "strong archer"; this build is +6 while raging at 1st level. (We're going to need it, because build features little will save advancement from class levels.)
02 rang1 02 [Guide] Ranger's Focus, Track, Wild Empathy
...who do we focus on? The enemy who's casting spell on us.
03 rang2 03 Archery:Precise Shot, Two Weapon Fighting
...You are able to make two melee or two Precisely thrown attacks at 3rd.
04 rogu1 03 STR>17, [knife master] SA+1d8
05 fight1 04 [Weapon Master:Dagger] Raging Vitality, Quick Draw
06 rogu2 05 [weapon training] Weapon Focus:Dagger
....rogue talent Underhanded is a trap given that it's limited to CHA uses per day, and build does not feature very many sneak-attack dice.
07 fight2 06 Improved Two Weapon Fighting
08 fight3 07 STR>18, [Weapon Training:Dagger+1]
...buy Gloves of Dueling simultaneously with fight3; attack bonus and damage drastically accelerate.
09 rogu3 08 [Blade Sense] SA+2d8, Improved Critical:Dagger
10 fight4 09 Weapon Specialization:Dagger, Improved Critical:Dagger
...Raging STR should be 24 now with Belt of Physical Magnificence +2; numerical bonus to damage (melee are thrown) with +1/Furious/Returning daggers is 7(STR)+3(enh+fur)+3(WT)+2(WS)+1(rat)
11 barb2 10 Uncanny Dodge, Reckless Abandon
12 rogu4 11 Improved Uncanny Dodge, [combat trick:Greater Two Weapon Fighting]
...absence of either Power Attack or Deadly Aim is deliberate; build features many iterative attacks which would otherwise miss.
05 fight1 04 [Weapon Master:Dagger] Raging Vitality, Quick Draw
Raging Vitality requires 15 Con.
A monk has no reason to be in carrion crown? Me thinks a GM is hung up with preconceived notions.
A monk has no reason to be in carrion crown? Me thinks a GM is hung up with preconceived notions.
Agreed, especially with Hungry Ghost Monk...I made a Hungry Ghost Chelaxian Monk, he's flavored very nicely...
I mean chelaxian orphanage monks are almost literally a stereotype in and of themselves at this point.
"Please sir may I please have some more? Or I'll stunning fist, elemental fist dragon ki shout your face off."
Only if you are throwing a bow that counts as an arrow being launched from a bow.
I created a knife-wielding Rogue for the Night Below campaign, a few years back... long before Ultimate Combat came out. It wasn't optimized by any means, but I had a concept and wanted to run with it. Basically to keep my damage competitive with the group, I used Improved Feint to make every attack a sneak attack. Who cares if your weapon only does d4 dmg if you are adding several d6 to each blow? I had 16's in both Dex and Cha, and with weapon finesse as my first Rogue trick, it allowed me to make attacks at +4 attack bonus by 2nd level (+6 when I had flank bonus, +7 with mwk daggers) and if I didn't have either surprise or a flanked opponent, I had a +9 Bluff check to Feint my opponent as a move action (+1 bonus to Bluff from a trait, I believe). Do you realize how very few AP opponent's have any ranks in Sense Motive at all?
Now that Ultimate Combat has added an option for Knife Fighters, it seems even easier to do a good build.
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While Ustalav does not feature any world-renowned monastic orders, devotees of self-perfection and the martial arts can periodically be found traveling through the region—may have come from backgrounds of self-training, sportsmanship, or barbarity. However, Professor Lorrimor’s travels took him far beyond his native land, and he encountered monks in distant cities and isolated monasteries the world over. He fondly recounted his long philosophical discussions with aged monks in far away corners of the Inner Sea region, and was rumored to have even imparted some of his esoteric wisdom to eager young trainees he encountered on teaching tours.
I'm pretty sure that paragraph proves your DM wrong about Monks not being suited for the campaign.
I, personally, would play a Halfling Paladin that used daggers. High charisma and dexterity, and then pick up stealth and knowledge: religion. Who needs sneak attack when you have smite in an horror campaign :)
Betrayer from Ultimate Combat. If you succeed at Diplomacy, you can attack as an immediate action. If you swayed them to friendly or better, they're flat-footed. Combine with Underhanded Rogue talent and Knife Expert archetype and you're looking at max damage d8 progression sneak attack. Probably only for evil characters though, like a halfing rogue or halfing assassin.
Ninja could take Knifemaster, just trade in poison use and no trace, what is both not of much use anyway. poison use is nice on low level, but later dc´s are just too low, poisons expensive and many oponents resistant or immune anyway.
Then, personally i would love to rewrite the knifemaster into stickmaster^^. You just know how to hit someone with a stick so it really hurts.
Take a halfling ninja with weapon focus halfling slingstick and warslinger trait. That solves a lot of problems.
Also just suit bracers of archery for slings.
Underhanded with betrayer and rethorical flourish are nice, but you also need persuasive and quick draw, what is really feat hungry.
And then it counts only for surprise rounds.
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I created a knife-wielding Rogue for the Night Below campaign, a few years back... long before Ultimate Combat came out. It wasn't optimized by any means, but I had a concept and wanted to run with it. Basically to keep my damage competitive with the group, I used Improved Feint to make every attack a sneak attack. Who cares if your weapon only does d4 dmg if you are adding several d6 to each blow? I had 16's in both Dex and Cha, and with weapon finesse as my first Rogue trick, it allowed me to make attacks at +4 attack bonus by 2nd level (+6 when I had flank bonus, +7 with mwk daggers) and if I didn't have either surprise or a flanked opponent, I had a +9 Bluff check to Feint my opponent as a move action (+1 bonus to Bluff from a trait, I believe). Do you realize how very few AP opponent's have any ranks in Sense Motive at all?
Now that Ultimate Combat has added an option for Knife Fighters, it seems even easier to do a good build.
don't forget that there is the two weapon feint now, trade in your first main hand attack for a feint then get all your other attacks, yay for sneak attacks
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I really like the encouragement of Maveric28 concerning my choice to take improved feint and continue into the way of rogue. However, I know I could take stronger builds like the paladin/inquisitor in an horror setting like carrion crown. I could need insight like the DR in this campain, as I never played it. Will I be useless as a rogue if we fight ghosts? How could I overcome it?
I still have time to change my class before the first game. Would it be that better if I take a Hungry ghost monk?
Hungry Ghost, despite its name, offers nothing that helps in fighting incorporeals. But it has other uses....
Hmm.... "Retired" Tian Xia "pirate" (monk[1or2]/ninja[x]) with a wooden-leg on landlubber adventures uses Catch Off-Guard to Punishing Kick w/Improvised Weapon (the wooden leg) getting sneak, then Flurry of Stars a crapload of shurikens.
Main difficulty is in getting Feints without it costing a crapload of actions; and you can't flank with a ranged weapon sans some kind of additional exploit (open ears, folks; what have ya got?).
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James? Try playing a ninja. Keep your CHA up (a 14 is good; 16 if you're ambitious). Look up the "Moonlight Stalker" feat (has steep requirements, but pretty cool) for initial race/build ideas.
Ah Moonlight stalker is really cool.Only the racial trait requirements make it kind of limited. Maybe take a Drow then?
Too bad i was prohibited from playing Drow in my group :(
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Here's the Knife Master Rogue I recently came up with:
Str 14 Dex 16 (all stat bumps go here) Con 14 Int 13 Wis 10 Cha 12
Traits: River Rat, Reactionary; Favored Class goes to HP
Feats:
1H Quick Draw
1 Combat Expertise
3 Piranha Strike
5 Gang Up
7 Sap Adept
9 Sap Master
11 Improved Unarmed Strike
13 Improved Critical
15 Improved Steal
Talents:
2 Finesse Rogue
4 Weapon Focus: Dagger
6 Deft Palm
8 Coax Information
10 Improved Evasion
12 Crippling Strike
14 Skill Mastery
Skills: 10/HD Acrobatics, Bluff*, Climb, Diplomacy*, Disable Device, Disguise*, Escape Artist, Know(Local)*, Perception, Sense Motive*, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Swim* (* denotes ½ HD skill ranks, everything else maxed)
Gear: Knives, lots of knives. Mithral Chain Shirt ASAP, standard AC boost items. Headband w/ UMD from 8th-9th lvl on if possible, later add Craft Alchemy to it. Can operate on shoestring budget if necessary, sticking to stealth, sneak attack, and infiltration tactics.
Trick here: Use a Sap in one hand, for those surprise round KO shots, or when you want to take people alive. Use the knife hand to gut people...remember, when Nonlethal Damage = Current HP, fall down, go boom. Very handy little combo.
Skills can be modified, obviously, with Coax Information coming a bit sooner if needed. That will let you ignore Intimidate. Also, this character uses HP as his Favored Class bonus, no real reason you couldn't swap that to Skills.
When I first saw the knife master archtype my first thought was of a certain Furian from Pitch Black.
I have a basic concept-
Half-orc Rogue (Knife Master)+ Veiled Veilness (feat from Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting) or Pass for Human from Advanced Player's Guide. -This gives you a "human" that can see in the dark.
Racial +2 stat bonus goes to Strength. (consider several levels barbarian for rage and rage power.)
Rogue Talents: Offensive Defense, Combat Trick
...still thinking it over but that is the basic idea.