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I think the ninja is more like a fighter or monk and is "overrated". If you want to play a "classic" rogue, which is more colorful to me, you must take the rogue class with the flavor you want. I don't think there's an absolute for ability traits as the rogue should be versatile. You can play the charming rogue with high CHA (useful for bluff to give free sneak attacks, intimidate, diplomacy). With high STR (climb, jumb, swim, CMB to trip and grapple) You can play the "enzio auditore" rogue jumping from roof to roof, fighting with hidden blades and climbing fortification walls to open the gate for your team. with high DEX you can play the talented lock-picker, swift hands to steal and acrobatic skills to move through ennemy space evading AoO. with high INT you can be a jack of all trade having the more skills points in the team. Wisdom to be the trap-spotter and boost the sense motive.
I think INT should remain the main stat as you must be talented and can compensate your lower bonuses due to low stat with skill ranks ex: climbing skill to to low STR). INT should be supported by either STR, DEX or CHA depending of your role as a rogue.
I personally like to play my rogue with minor_magic detect magic to see the items I should steal $$$ on someone. Then major magic Vanish spell to become invisible.


You should try to mind control him with spells. Or, you could use grease to make the terrain slippery, your ogre having reach could hit him then move back making him enter the reach area for an AoO.

I don't think grappling or tripping would work, thoses are against the CMD. In our game the dwarf defender (18 str, 16 dex, 20 con) is only level 4 and has above 30 CMD. My 18 strength character tried to trip him once and I failed with a critical on d20. It was very frustrating. He has specialized in tower shield and is the defender type, which gives him tremendously high AC and CMD. Your level 8 dwarf should have at least 34 CMD and a fortitude high enough to prevent him to be affected by any diseases too. If he did specialise on armor, his penalty to swim and climb are so reduced it is almost inexistant. So, even an ogre cannot toss or push the dwarf defender. (And can swim with his fullplate, because he is good to use with his armor... It is very weird and illogical to me)


I believe some people are more lucky than others for small events, but not for important things. My rolls usually sucks (rarely over 12 on d20.. really!) so I tend to prefers having characters with more attacks to multiply my chances.
In one game, the DM was making us re-roll d20 on 20 for skills, add the result and reroll on 20 again. One of my friends is usually VERY lucky with any dices was scoring 60-80-100 for a skill check because he had often several 20 one after another and I already saw him roll 20 5 times in a row. It was very funny and also frustrating when his mage character were disabling dc 30+ locks and the rogue did not.


I have now a 4th level rogue and I need your advice for the next talents/feats I should take.
In the team we have an alchemist, a summoner and a dwarf fighter.

4th rogue knife master
STR:17 DEX:18 CON:12 INT:14 WIS:10 CHA:17

-Two weapon fighting.
-Combat expertise.
-Improved feint.
-Minor magic (detect magic) to detect magic items in loot :p
-Major magic (vanish) for sneak attacks, and the +20/+40 stealth

I should really think to boost fortitude ans will saves.
at level 6 I will have 2 rogue talents because of my favored class.


My first impression of my knife master build after two games (now level3):

As an "archeologist" with a sympatic face (17cha) I totally lead the two alchemist gnome to do some "cave exitement" and the summoner to some "magic discovery opportunity" to follow me to "bring back some history valuable (gold) artifacts".

We won a fist encounter with angry peasants chasing some old lady when I intimidated them. They fled in panic exept one that I triped (17 str) the summoned called a fire beetle on him. I tied them together using a rope. He wet his pants.
In another encounter with an angry mob preventing us to burrow doctor Lorrimor. I just slipped behind the leader and cut his pants loose. He fled in humiliation and it killed the manifestation in the egg without the lead I just told them "to go home".
The next encounter I bluffed (bluff 9) in the face of an evil cleric and it worked (had 6 on the dice but most monsters need 10 + base attack so 11-14 defence max agains it for our level). The sneak attack 1d4 +1 +1d6cold + 2d8 (3rd level knife master) +3str = (8-30dmg) and killed him with a blade in the neck.
At 2nd level I took minor magic detect magic to detect where the magical artifacts are in a room, stash or treasure. At 3rd level I took two weapon fighting to be able to bluff+two sneak attacks (16-60dmg possible) and at 4th level i will take major magic vanish to be invisible on the battlefield and sneak attack at will ^^.
Next rogue talent maybe powerfull sneak to get 2 instead of 1 for sneak attack damages. Then maybe deadly sneak as advanced talent for 3 instead of 1&2 for sneak or opportunist to get an AOO once a round a melee damage is made to an enemy.
My experience so far is that the rogue (knife master for extra damages) are a very versatile character and is VERY usefull in a party and offers infinite gameplay possibilities. Never played it before.


I really like the encouragement of Maveric28 concerning my choice to take improved feint and continue into the way of rogue. However, I know I could take stronger builds like the paladin/inquisitor in an horror setting like carrion crown. I could need insight like the DR in this campain, as I never played it. Will I be useless as a rogue if we fight ghosts? How could I overcome it?
I still have time to change my class before the first game. Would it be that better if I take a Hungry ghost monk?


Thanks for the build to boost dagger damages. A fighter/barbarian is indeed a better warrior than a rogues. I eyed the monk as they boosted it up since 3.5 with the versatility of the ki-pool on the battlefield. My first build was the hunger ghost monk, but the DM prefered the rogue as it is a campain for lv1 in carrion crown and monks have almost no reasons to be there.

I really want to play my character as a tomb raider seeking riches anyway.
But, the guy playing the inquisitor changed for a summoner and there will be no real melee or tank. I want to play it like a cunning bastard on the battle field.

At level 4 I will have the Vanish major magic spell, so I will be invisible three times a day, granting me mobility on the battlefield and additional sneak attacks opportunity.


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I wanted to do a similar character, a knife master, in carrion crown too. But my build is quite different and I wanted your opinion on my choices. The game will start in a week and I can still change some things. My team will be : one gnome alchemist mutagen type, one gnome alchemist surgeon and one inquisitor. So I will not be the only melee.

I start with a hiden wrist blade (like ezio) 1d4 +1 + 1d6 cold

human Rogue lv1, knife master
Str: 17 +3
Dex: 17 +3
Con: 12 +1
Int: 14 +2
Wis: 10 0
Cha: 17 +3

Lvl 1: Combat expertise; Improved feint

I plan to do as much flanking I could and improved feint if I have no choice. I already have +10 to bluff skill.
I also plan to get TWF at 3rd level.